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The Lounge => Random Talk => Topic started by: Baggins on April 28, 2011, 01:54:26 PM

Title: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on April 28, 2011, 01:54:26 PM
http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/04/27/proposed-u-s-passport-questionnaire-asks-about-baptism-circumsision/

I came across this the other day, and have to say I find this disconcerting and disturbing on many levels... This seems to be an extreme intrusion on privacy rights... Historically when countries required this level of background checks  never ended well... This has often been the tool of many totalitarian regimes...leading to discrimination and in worse cases death.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: wilco64256 on April 28, 2011, 01:59:48 PM
I can see why they'd be interested in any information that may help to verify someone's birthdate but that's really pushing the line on church vs state stuff in my opinion.

In other news, Superman is no longer a US citizen:

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2011/04/28/superman-renounces-citizenship-00th-issue/
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on April 28, 2011, 02:32:33 PM
Asking questions based on religious practices is just as bad as asking about race or sexual preferences...

Superman has often been a tool for political propaganda...unfortunately.

Did you know during WW2 superman extolled such progressive virtues of the putting Japanese-Americans in internment camps, showing how great and humane the camps were, keeping them safe and fed, and even stopping escape attempts from those nefarious 'Japs'... He helped round them up even...

DC doesn't reprint those issues for obvious reasons. Although it probably would be good if they were so we remember, and avoid making mistakes like that again... It's a teachable source, in the same way the Mein Kampf is still published to this day... Censorship is bad... We need to learn from our mistakes...
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: KatieHal on April 28, 2011, 02:54:15 PM
WTF?!?!
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on April 28, 2011, 03:07:02 PM
That pretty much sums up my feeling as well...



"These are the times that try men's souls."

Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Enchantermon on April 28, 2011, 03:22:49 PM
Wow...Superfail.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on April 28, 2011, 03:33:33 PM
You have heard about the plans for national ID card with RFiD chip and universal Internet ID (only allowed a single user name for all Internet accounts managed by the government)?

These are all ways the gov is trying to gain control of people's lives...
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: kindofdoon on April 28, 2011, 04:34:34 PM
Now that is seriously dystopian...I can only hope to be dead before it's a problem.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on April 28, 2011, 04:47:40 PM
I'll burn my ID card and go off the grid. ...and join the resistance...
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: KatieHal on April 28, 2011, 04:53:00 PM
I don't understand the political goings-on lately. It's like half the politicians (and people?) in the country suddenly decided that the entire civil rights movement was a terrible idea and they're fighting tooth and nail to drag the country kicking and screaming back in time. Civil rights, women's rights, citizen's rights, worker's rights, you name it, it's being threatened all of a sudden and in astounding force.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: dark-daventry on April 28, 2011, 05:08:13 PM
Is it just me, or are we moving to a Minority Report type society?

I don't understand the political goings-on lately. It's like half the politicians (and people?) in the country suddenly decided that the entire civil rights movement was a terrible idea and they're fighting tooth and nail to drag the country kicking and screaming back in time. Civil rights, women's rights, citizen's rights, worker's rights, you name it, it's being threatened all of a sudden and in astounding force.

It seems to me like the separation of church and state has pretty much dissolved. I have no qualms with religion (within reason; I do have some issues with those that think being gay is a choice and other issues), but I don't think it should play a part in politics at all. Leave your religious beliefs at home when you're into politics. Whether that's the reason for these insane bills, I'm not positive. It's just how it looks to me. And, I hate to stereotype, but it seems like it's all republicans proposing this stuff. All the more reason why I should move to Canada!
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on April 28, 2011, 05:22:01 PM
The problem exists on both sides... Both extremes have the potential of leading to totalitarianism.

The passport stuff, RFiD an Internet control largely coming from the current administration, executive branch, and cabinet members regulation through FCC, etc. Obama's appointee Cass Sunstein is one of the largest promoters. But certainly some on the right would certainly love this kind of power for themselves, as well.

Unions do have a purpose, but some have become corrupt and caused problems for non-union workers and their rights. The bosses Do not always have their members best interests in mind, with bosses getting extra perks, leaving the lesser members out. Many have turned into big businesse, exploiting companies, until they are driven into bankruptcy or out of the country.

On the other end big business may be corrupt as well, and not have their workers best interests in mind (this is seriously not always the case).   Yet some gov policies are driving business out of the country and destroying jobs. Innovation is being snuffed.

There needs to be a balance, between both extremes...

Both sides suffer with forms of institionalized racism, and discrimination, and social engineering.


No I think we need to be very careful in putting too much trust into either side. And be very careful about giving up our liberties to any government.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin

I was at the National WW1 Museum the other day, I was surprised to learn how similar current world events and politics were just before WW1, between statism, marxism/socialism, and nationalism. One of the lecturers there pointed out that all it would take would be something similar to the Ferninand assasination to draw us into another world war...

As far as 'separation of church and state'. Constitutionally the government is not supposed to establish a state religion, but on other end of the spectrum its not supposed to impede the 'free exercise' of beliefs of individuals either. It's a tricky and fine line. Few people ever seem to discuss the the 'free exercise' clause, and its meaning.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on April 28, 2011, 10:04:57 PM
If they really want proof of circumcision, I got no problem showing them.  Disrespect for disrespect.  Just one of you guys bail me out of airport jail.  I did have a friend locked in there one time because he was parked out front with no license. Though I bet there was more to it than that.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on April 29, 2011, 03:49:31 AM
So you are predicting this is the next stage of TSA 'pat downs'? Full cavity searches and signs of circumcision?
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: dark-daventry on April 29, 2011, 10:30:24 AM
they really want to check for circumcision? so if someone isn't circumcised, they're automatically considered a terrorist? come on; that's the biggest leap of logic I've ever seen in my life.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: wilco64256 on April 29, 2011, 10:45:18 AM
Let's not get too derailed here - the circumcision question is one of those to help verify someone's birth date.  Since it's typically done within a specific timeframe based on one's date of birth that could potentially help to prove that you were born on such-and-such date.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: dark-daventry on April 29, 2011, 10:50:40 AM
Let's not get too derailed here - the circumcision question is one of those to help verify someone's birth date.  Since it's typically done within a specific timeframe based on one's date of birth that could potentially help to prove that you were born on such-and-such date.

I so knew that...
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on April 29, 2011, 12:40:53 PM
The Republicans want to take this country back to the way it was in 1900...I follow politics pretty closely and the GOP wants to get rid of Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, Federal Aid to Education, the NEA, EPA, FDA, OSHA (which ensures safe working conditions for workers), amongst other agencies. One of the leading Republicans, Rand Paul, wants to repeal the Civil Rights Act of 1964 because it prohibits private businesses from discriminating against people.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Deloria on April 29, 2011, 12:44:58 PM
DC doesn't reprint those issues for obvious reasons. Although it probably would be good if they were so we remember, and avoid making mistakes like that again... It's a teachable source, in the same way the Mein Kampf is still published to this day... Censorship is bad... We need to learn from our mistakes...
Mein Kampf is actually on a list of banned books in several European countries. :P

I was at the National WW1 Museum the other day, I was surprised to learn how similar current world events and politics were just before WW1, between statism, marxism/socialism, and nationalism. One of the lecturers there pointed out that all it would take would be something similar to the Ferninand assasination to draw us into another world war...
WWI started because the political tensions between all European states almost necessitated the outbreak of a war. Franz Ferdinand's assassination was an excuse to start one and a very grave insult to the Austro-Hungarian Empire. There was constant fighting in Africa; Belgium and Germany kept GB from transporting their raw materials through the continent; France kept picking fights with German colonies because Germany had humiliated France in the Franco-Prussian War; France and GB had always traditionally been enemies; Russia was still feudal. All the European powers were fighting for space and for more colonies in Africa and Asia and there was so much political tension between all of them because of it. There were just waiting for an excuse to go at each other's throats and all of them were nationalists.

Aside from the odd problem with the state of the economy of Greece/Spain/Portugal/Italy/etc. and the EU having to bail them out, Europe is fine and harmonious. North Africa is a mess and has been since the Jasmine Revolution in January, but things will eventually calm down. New regimes come to power so often there that the only reason it's even worth mentioning is because it's happened to so many countries in such a short space of time. Libya is a problem, but it's also a problem that will soon end. It's not a world war and it couldn't become one. :)
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: darthkiwi on April 29, 2011, 04:14:21 PM
Mein Kampf is indeed banned in some places. And, of course, a bookshop doesn't have to carry it if it doesn't want to, which could be seen as censorship. It's not a huge issue because you can view it online and can probably find it somewhere if you look hard enough.

Also, bear in mind that seventy years ago the Germany army swept across Europe massacring hundreds of thousands of people. And now, Europe barely argues about whether they should bail a particular country out of their economic problems. I simply cannot see why one European country would even begin to consider invading another European country. So I don't think world war 3 is on its way.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on April 29, 2011, 05:44:39 PM
Actually if WW3 begins it will likely start in Asian and Middle-East fronts. Largely only in the Middle East if certain groups get into power, and pull together a new caliphate. Some of these nations like Iran already have backing of Russia and Venezeula. There were even a few documents in the wikileaks files that suggest even some of the Mexican drug cartels are creating ties to several Middle Eastern nations and beginning to use many of the same tactics as the extremists. Many of these nations are already teach an anti-western philosophy. Egypt and Turkey are currently moving in this direction, and making pacts with Iran as well in last few weeks. My own experience with people I have met from Turkey in recent years they have been increasingly calling to be the leadership of the new caliphate, bringing about a new Ottomon Empire if possible.

Elements in China and North Korea have also in recent years have shown desire for imperialistic conquest. They have created pacts with Russia and Iran as well. They also have shown some anti-westernism as well.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/8229789/China-preparing-for-armed-conflict-in-every-direction.html

Will something akin to WW3 happen maybe, maybe not.  But some historians have claimed that it could easily turn that direction if the right event occurs to set it off.

As far as the USA and the way things are going I wonder if a new civil war will happen, akin to the one 'predicted' in Alan Moore's V for Vendetta. Both sides seem to hate each other vehemently.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: waltzdancing on April 29, 2011, 06:38:11 PM
Yeah both sides hate each other but I don't see another civil war coming or a world war, I just don't see it.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: KatieHal on April 29, 2011, 09:39:39 PM
I think it would take something VERY polarizing for another US civil war.

As for a world war, I don't think it would be between countries. Or at least, would not start that way. It would start as a conflict between extremist groups. And, I imagine, the US. Other countries would side with/be controlled by certain extremist groups, which would make it very complicated to fight for the same reason the "war on terrorism" is difficult to fight. It's not the sort of thing where you have a clear enemy who fights on a global scale. Escalation would happen from there for it to become, indeed, a "world war."
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Deloria on April 30, 2011, 04:50:09 AM
Fortunately, thanks to globalisation, the current recession, and the growing population, no country is self-sufficient. Since we're largely dependent upon one another, we really can't afford to start a war with anyone. :P There will always be extremist groups and those that oppose them, but that could never turn into a world war.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Enchantermon on April 30, 2011, 05:46:34 AM
Since we're largely dependent upon one another, we really can't afford to start a war with anyone. :P
That never stopped us before. We could hardly afford to start the Revolutionary War, but we did anyway. Heck, there's a lot of things the US does that we can't afford to do.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on April 30, 2011, 06:07:45 AM
Ahh yes globialization and the progressive era...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/video/qt/mini_p01_02_b_56.html

People should read up on the last time globialzation was praised and believed would prevent wars....

It's absolutely fascinating that you can read in many of the letters and newspapers from that time (before WW1) and they were having much the same discussion we are having now. Many believed globalization would prevent wars like many that occurred the previous century or two before. It caused reliance on other nation, etc. They too thought we couldn't afford to get into another war. There were also issues the population growth and resources.

Also I'd recommend reading into the Black Hand society, essentially an extremist Serbian secret society and terrorist cabal who killed the Archduke. So yes I definitely agree that the factors for World Wars or any war for that matter may start with extremists. The problem is what the extremists cause can escalate and cause other groups to blame each other and nations, and left unchecked may escalate into nation vs nation conflict.

Also we are seriously at such situation were everyone relies on everyone else economically if something such as full blown economic collapse could lead to loss of resources for others and blame to be tossed around. This so far has lead to small scale riots such as those in Greece, but has spread into other nations as their economy has collapsed. But if it started effecting more nations at once could escalate into something worse if those starving began to put blame on on other nations they relied on for resources. This is one main reasons other countries are attempting to bail out other countries to prevent or slow civil unrest. The problem is that is putting stress on other member countries who are also suffering financially themselves. This has so far lead to places like Germany threatening to pull themselves from the EU in order to fend for themselves.

It seriously wouldn't take much for a starving nation who believes another nation was the cause of their woes to feel that the only way to get reparations would be to invade the country if things were dire enough out of desperation.

Seriously when the world is currently in a situation where it's said by many of the leaders and economists that we are too big to fail, what happens if the system fails? What happens when people aren't longer capable of plugging the holes.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: dark-daventry on April 30, 2011, 02:12:42 PM
Here's a pro to another World War. If we take Star Trek as absolute truth (come on, who *doesn't*?), then the third World War will lead the way to the next evolutionary step of the Human Race, space travel. Shortly after the events of said world war, man will conduct it's first manned faster than light travel, attract the attention of a nearby Vulcan vessel, and we will be catapulted into a new age for humanity. Then, we'd go beyond world war and go to intergalactic war, first with a race of warrior like beings, then robotic/human hybrids, and finally a race from another quadrant of the galaxy entirely. Oh, and we can't forget about temporal wars.

In all seriousness, though, I don't want another world war, but sometimes the greatest of human achievements come out of such violent acts. America, for example, wouldn't exist as a country today without the Revolutionary War. Without the Civil War, to date the bloodiest war in American history, we could still have slavery. As much as I despise war, I can't deny the accomplishments that have come out of it. I do strongly oppose both the Iraq war and the war on terror, though. I think, frankly, it's a waste of money for the American people and it's really just a waste of our time at this point. We don't even know for absolute certainty that Osama is still alive. Honestly, we have more pressing matters here in the U.S. to attend to than fighting a war overseas that so far, has accomplished next to nothing. For one, education is suffering, people are losing jobs left and right, and the economy is still on the verge of collapse. Oh, and we're in debt something trillion, aren't we? Yes, I got that last figure from facebook, so I don't have absolute faith in it's accuracy. I don't follow politics very closely, because when/if I do, I'll end up getting rather depressed with the state of this world.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Deloria on April 30, 2011, 05:32:13 PM
If we're even going to have this discussion, I'm going to insist we use proper terminology and call it WWIV because the F&I War/7 Years' War was much more of a world war than the hypothetical one you're cooking up is ever going to be. :P
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: darthkiwi on April 30, 2011, 05:36:17 PM
If you're mentioning WW4, I'm going to use this quote, simply because I like it:

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Albert Einstein (1947)
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Deloria on April 30, 2011, 05:37:28 PM
Then we have nothing to worry about when it breaks out. :P Apart from the fact that the world will be smoldering. :P
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on April 30, 2011, 05:55:36 PM
It's something like 14 trillion now, Obama has tripled Bush's deficit which was bad enough as it was... Thanks to those wars with no foreseeable outcomes... Now if things go to hell, we might be finding ourselves deeper into a third war in Libya. This isn't counting the drug cartel wars that are spreading from Mexico throughout the states (one article on AP suggested that the Zetas have spread their violence as far a New York City, including violent assassinations).

I want to see our men brought back, and defend our own nation. Let the people in the middle east fend for themselves. They don't want us there anyways, judging by the number supposed allies whom we have trained shooting our men in the back... I hate seeing friends and family get killed for no reason at all... The 'humanitarian argument' is thin...

To add to the irony according to CNN and other news agencies  (and some of my buddies over there) around the world we (including the UN) may actually be allied with Al Qaeda in the Libya front. Does that make any sense? Supposedly we are fighting them in Iraq and Afghanistan, and getting all buddy buddy in Libya....

It's not our job to police the world nor should we bail out other countries for their mistakes and warmongering... We need to just stick to helping the suffering in our own nation...

(Posted on: April 30, 2011, 07:40:17 PM)


Deloria...

It's fascinating but from the South Korean perspective, their historians the the Korean War (which technically had never ended) is/was WW3 because it had representative forces from around the world via UN forces and communist regimes backing North Korea (China and Russia). From their interpretation it wasn't so much the amount of land involved but rather the number of countries involve in some way.

There are also historians, politicians, pundits, etc who view the War on Terror as the start of the modern WW3 as attacks from terrorists (from various organizations) have occurred all over the world. They see this war to be a long fought war that will grow over time as it spreads into other nations.

There are even a few historians that see the Cold War as an extension of WW2, this from their perspective WW2 ended with the collapse of USSR.

Still others contend that he Cold War has never truly ended as there is still little trust between the various players including the current Russian government and USA. China still continues to be aggressive in some ways and still sends spy programs and hacking secrets. Russian spies are still found to be a problem. Gotta keep track of those mail order brides ;).

Speaking of US/Russia relations, anyone read about how the US sold out Great Britain recently by selling all the British nuclear missile defense secrets to Russia without the UK's permission or knowledge? This was exposed by wikileaks. Whose side are the US on anyways?
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: dark-daventry on April 30, 2011, 10:45:34 PM
Honestly, I think that's a bit cold-shouldered, Baggins. What if another nation comes to us seeking aid? do we turn a blind eye and say fight for yourselves? I would rather help a nation that asks for our help than a nation that never asked in the first place. The saddest part is that the United States, over the course of about 200 years (give or take) turned into the very thing it broke away from. Isn't a bit ironic that we broke away from England because we didn't like the way we were being treated, yet every day we slowly turn closer to that ourselves? England, on the other side of the coin, has become what we aspired to be all those centuries ago. I'm very tempted to move to either Canada or England when I can; I'm not so confident in the U.S. anymore. The government doesn't represent the people anymore, sadly. The government seems to have their own agenda, and the people of the U.S. can't really do anything about it. Oh how the mighty have fallen. Quite frankly, I think the Founding Fathers of America would be ashamed to see our country in the shape it's in now. The separation of Church and State seems to not exist anymore, and we no longer have freedom of speech; not truly, at least. We're transitioning, slowly but surely, into a nation that can no longer support itself. We're off fighting wars with other countries while the innocent lives within our own walls are suffering in a way that this nation has never seen before. We call ourselves a world "Superpower", but really, we're just the "cool kids" that like to show off. Sure, it works for a while, but eventually, it comes to bite us in the ass. Now we're in debt something trillion dollars and our nation is on the verge of collapse, be it economically or socially. We've made backward steps towards evolution. All men are created equal... if only that were seen as being true. The gay community (that includes me, guys) is still seen by many as inferior or second class citizens. The U.S., such a great country, still can't accept me and my brethren for who we are. As William Shakespeare wrote,

"I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands,
organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same
food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases,
heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter
and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If
you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?
And if you wrong us, do we not revenge? If we are like you in the
rest, we will resemble you in that."


While he isn't talking about gays, the same logic applies. I just don't understand why it's so hard to accept the fact that I *am* human.

Sorry for preaching that... But when it comes to the U.S., the lack of gay rights is really my biggest issue at the moment. It affects me on a very personal level. The point I'm trying to make is, we should fix our own country before we fix others.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: darthkiwi on May 01, 2011, 05:03:43 AM
Another important point is that I'm pretty sure we're not in Afghanistan out of the goodness of our hearts: there are plenty of messed up places in the world and simply believing that we can walk into a country and make it better (a dubious claim in the first place) is not grounds for invasion. Rather, our concern is that Afghanistan may become a breeding ground for terrorist groups which will make it more likely that our country is attacked by terrorists in the future.

And that's why I'm not sure we should simply "bring our boys home": if our presence in the region is preventing the country from becoming a source of Islamic terrorism then maybe we should stay. Of course, that's an enormous "if" and may well not be true.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on May 01, 2011, 06:22:21 AM
Look, practically the only true reason we are in Libya is because it's an oil country... One that's important to France...

It's really the only reason the U.S., NATO, UN are interested in in it and willing to ally with our enemy Al Qaeda (which will probably end up no better in the long run). Seriously it's an organization known for killing and suicide bombing civilians...

Meanwhile other countries like Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Behren (hell, even China if we want to be honest) and others are also mistreating their people shooting 'civilians' and imprisoning innocents, and the UN turns a blind eye except to add more sanctions (in many cases not even that). This seems to be largely because there are few resources to be had in those nations (obviously invading China wouldn't work since they are moving towards being the main superpower). Hell, the UN have turned a blind eye to genocide in many third world countries, the thing they have in common is no resources. Strangely many of the members on the UN human rights council are nations known to have extreme human rights violations killing/imprisoning civilians over political, religious belief or in some cases 'infidelity', and gender inequality...

Libya is really pretty much another Iraq a nation we have invaded under pretext of humanitarian aid, yet you know an underlying reason was probably oil... The hypocrisy is transparent, more so than in the government...

Now allied forces in Libya also have innocent blood on their hands as a predator drone strike killed Gaddhafi's grand children and not him. There is even talk that killing his son being killed as well may cause a backlash. Also did you know many in the UN are beginning to consider predator drones as an unbundle weapon as it's likely killed more civilians than the main targets that they are sent in to take out?

As for gay rights things could be better, but at least be happy you aren't living in the middle east were you would be stoned... Thanks to he all encompassing Sharia laws...
You still live in a place you can protest your rights...

Quote
the first place) is not grounds for invasion. Rather, our concern is that Afghanistan may become a breeding ground for terrorist groups which will make it more likely that our country is attacked by terrorists in the future.

This is true to a degree, the problem is that now it's getting so bad that our supposed allies there are killing the troops as well, so now they have to watch their backs as well as their fronts. It's also turning into a Vietnam situation... Also several of western allies there are already starting to pull out, seeing it as an impossible task and starting to accuse America at being at fault for pulling them into the war in the first place. They also bring up the point that not even the Russians were successful there.

As far as our 'enemy' or the one they have us believe we are fighting, Al Qaeda,  aren't only in Afghanistan can be found all over the middle east, Indian subcontinent, Africa, even cells in the USA and Mexico according to some intelligence documents. Britain has recently admitted they have their own terrorist cells in England, that they have turned a blind eye to out of political correctness (that have already made several attempts on the US). Yet we aren't stopping those threats (invasion or what not). If Osama is still alive he has plenty of places to go hide. If I was him I'd probably head to Libya because we are allies with Al Qaeda there, so less likely to be fired upon by the Americans. It's seriously messed up situation...

Some studies even claim that our interference in the middle east has actually had the opposite effect, and has created more terrorists throughout the world. Rallying the extremist imams to a common cause. Remember in some cases the insurgents we kill are actually believe they are defending their country from invaders (at least that is what they are told), and are not themselves members of the Taliban or Al Qaeda, when we kill these types of troops it actually causes resentment among their families and friends causing villages to join the terrorist cause.

Apparently as far as actually Al Qaeda forces in Afganistan, most originate out of and are funded by Saudi Arabia (the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis), but we seriously aren't going to attack there because they are supposedly allies, we are main customers for oil... And attacking anywhere near Mecca could radicalize the entire middle east... Woe be it, if the Kabbala was hit...

I even have even been told by some in the know that our special forces troops were specifically told not to fire on Osama when they encountered him, and let him escape, because if he was captured or killed it would probably lead to end of the war much faster, and there were reasons the government wanted keep this war ongoing for various reasons. One of my sources even claims he had Osama in his sights on 2-3 occasions but was told to stand down... If this is true, and I have little reason to not trust my source, it's pretty sinister...

Of course some believe he is already dead, and was killed the first year of the war, and has been kept 'alive' through propaganda as a kind of boogeyman, in order to keep the war going. Similar to claim made by my sources, but with additional twist that he already died...
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: dark-daventry on May 01, 2011, 08:57:17 PM
THIS JUST IN: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD. I'm not even kidding; apparently a DNA match confirmed his death. My question is, how long has he been dead for? Now that we've pretty much confirmed that he's dead, perhaps we can finally get the heck out of afganistan. We have no reason to be there, especially now that Osama's been confirmed dead.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on May 01, 2011, 09:55:00 PM
I do hope we get the heck out of dodge...

But I hope Osama hasn't become a martyr to radicalize even more insergents....
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: glottal on May 01, 2011, 09:59:23 PM
RE: United States politics

I think both politcal parties are disconnected from voters and instead connected to people who fund lobbyists/campaigns (at least at the national level - things are a little better at the state/local levels).  And the Democrats and Republicans sound so much like each others these days (again at the national level - local level is a different story) that the whole Democrat/Republican divide seems like history to me ... I found this particular essay persuasive: http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2011/02/dont-let-wisconsin-divide-us.html

RE: The next world war

It could very well start in Asia, specifically, in Taiwan or in Korea (or even possibly somewhere else).

China (or at least the Chinese Communist Party) wants Taiwan.  Most Taiwanese people do not want to be controlled by China, and most of the Taiwanese who think unification with China might be a good thing would only want it if China became a democracy.  China has a bunch of missiles aimed at Taiwan, and is building up more and more military capacity aimed at Taiwan.  Thus polls show strong support for "the status quo" - that is, Taiwan acting like an independent country without declaring independence.  This is so that Taiwan won't be controlled by China while not being invaded by China for being a rebel state or something.  Without the military threat from China, most Taiwanese would support declaring independence.

The Taiwan Relations Act says that the United States should do whatever necessary to protect Taiwan from invasion.  This is mostly the United States selling weapons to Taiwan.  However, lately there was a brouhaha about the latest set of weapons sales, because a) China pressured the United States not to carry through b) internal Taiwanese politics I don't want to get into.  This is spite of the fact that this deal had been arranged about 10 years ago and the weapons are already a bit out of date.  Some people have said that the United States is already failing to uphold its promises in the Taiwan Relations Act, and I am fearful about what will happen when a new weapons deal has to be negotiated.  And if the United States - THE UNITED FLIPPIN' STATES - stops selling weapons due to pressure from China, then nobody else is going to sell weapons to Taiwan either.

Recently, some people in the US has suggested that the US should stop protecting Taiwan and let China annex it already in order to secure stability.  Never mind the fact that, y'know, over 20 million people live in Taiwan, and generally want no such thing to happen.  Never mind the fact that, using the same logic which says that Taiwan belongs to China, Okinawa and Arunchal Pradesh also belong to China too, so if Taiwan is taken over by China both Japan and India will both build up their military capacities.  Especially since, in the case of Japan, Taiwan is the perfect place to launch an invasion into Japanese territory.  Or Philipine territory for that matter.  And even the possibility of Japan being invaded is extremely scary to South Korea too...

Yeah, a world war could come out of all this.

For the record, Taiwan is the most democratic republic in Asia, especially when you consider the fact that Taiwan gives women and queers a better deal than even in countries such as Japan.  There is a lot of room for improvement, as the recent silliness about whether or not Tsai Ing-wen is a lesbian proves (why the heck does it matter?) but both major political parties pay at least lip service to the idea that discrimination based on sexual orientation is wrong...

... yet Taiwan is not a member of the United Nations.  Hmmm.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on May 01, 2011, 10:27:38 PM
Sounds like the Pakistani military was protecting Bin Laden in a mansion. This means our so called 'allies' pulled a fast one on the US... I doubt this is going to go over to well...

I should probably bring up that Pakistan has nukes...

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_17971884?nclick_check=1
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Enchantermon on May 02, 2011, 03:39:12 AM
THIS JUST IN: OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD.
I was just coming to post that myself. How deliciously ironic. ^_^
My question is, how long has he been dead for?
According to Obama's statement, he died yesterday. Of course, I get the feeling that no one in this thread is going to believe that, but whatever. :P

For reference. (http://www.wtkr.com/videobeta/a4621a40-46d1-43d7-adc4-75678b726507/News/President-Obama-Announces-Death-Of-Osama-Bin-Laden)
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on May 02, 2011, 07:18:47 AM
so supposedly they through his body into the sea following 'traditional' Islamic practice...

Why is this starting to sound like one of those comic book tropes, were if the body is missing is the person really dead?

Where are the Che Gueverra-like death photos with witnesses taken in the pictures? There are sure many who would create a cult around him, continuing to believe he lives without good pictures showing otherwise.

At least having his ashes buries at sea in an undisclosed location should prevent his place of burial becoming a shrine.

This just in more wikileaks documents;
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8241119/capturing-bin-laden-would-unleash-hell
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: darthkiwi on May 02, 2011, 03:31:44 PM
Well, I *presume* they don't actually have a nuke, since one's not gone off. God, I hope not.

I agree about the death photos. It seems somewhat likely that he is dead (there are witnesses of the raid, and the risk of a backlash from radical Muslims would surely outweigh the benefits of lying), but some people will definitely doubt his death unless undeniable evidence is brought forth, and I personally won't be absolutely certain until we have irrefutable proof.

We can't be certain that the Pakistinian government was hiding him. It does look extremely suspicious, with him hidden a mile away from their military academy, but I don't think we can be certain.
Title: Re: Your papers, please?!
Post by: Baggins on May 02, 2011, 04:01:30 PM
http://m.timesofindia.com/world/us/Bin-Ladens-death-Hillary-Clinton-nearly-blew-the-whistle-on-ISI-safehouse/articleshow/8141352.cms

Oops... Apparently the way hey disposed of the body is an insult to Islam.

http://www.suntimes.com/5141576-417/bin-ladens-burial-at-sea-questioned-by-islamic-scholars.html

The nuke thing, if they have some they'll likely save it for a time and place that causes the most fear. Largely important festival days or anniversaries, based on previous MO. Yes, let's hope they don't have any.

Now other calls for retaliation so far;
http://www.thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?ID=14997

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/05/02/hamas-leader-condemns-killing-usama-bin-laden/

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3559385/Fears-of-revenge-atrocities-grow.html

US warning;
http://blogs.wsj.com/dispatch/2011/05/02/u-s-warns-of-al-qaeda-reprisals-over-bin-laden

Here is a new interview with Osama's son;

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=13509779