POStudios Forum

The Lounge => Gaming Talk => Topic started by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 17, 2011, 06:56:05 PM

Title: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 17, 2011, 06:56:05 PM
Was wondering if we could do a series of retrospective reviews (by members here in threads like this) on the previous KQ games. I figured I'd start with V as that's my personal favorite. Would love if everyone shared their feelings on KQ5, good, bad and neutral.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: dark-daventry on August 17, 2011, 08:00:52 PM
I personally wasn't a big fan, but I attribute that to me being young when I first played it. I got nightmares about Mordack and his blue creature things. I honestly haven't replayed it in *years*. Something I intend to do eventually.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 17, 2011, 08:15:28 PM
I liked KQV as far as the story. The story being, Graham meets Cassima and then saves his family from Mordack. All of the puzzles were awkward and didn't really have much context. Gems + honey = Profit? Cheese used to power up wands? They were weird puzzles, and there was no indication as to how to finish any of them. It was apparently logic that allowed the players to move forward, but for me, it was the process of elimination. Now, it's not like all the puzzles were quirky. Needle in a haystack? The temple in the desert (Cave of Wonders)? Those were easy. I just feel like the puzzles were not designed to be solved. It was mere nonsensical clutter that was supposed to be sifted through. Now, KQVI had quirky puzzles, but there was at least context information given about each item that allowed you to actually puzzle-solve in places like the Isle of Wonder. KQV is probably my least favorite for all these reasons. I do have to state one more reason though: Cedric. The end.  ;D
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 18, 2011, 12:10:58 AM
As far as I'm concerned, KQ5 had the best atmosphere and most compelling story. KQ6 had a more moving story, but the story of the father and head of his family journeying across God knows where to save them by turning his back on his kingdom to do so is incredibly noble, loyal, and inspiring. Not to mention heroic. That's more interesting to me than a love story, even a very good one. Alexander done good, but he's no Graham.

I love the locations, characters, random events, and the pacing of the gameplay and the story. The perfect fantasy adventure. In every sense. I never minded the dead-ends or spontaneous deaths because I never really ran into them. And if I did I got over it quickly enough.

Best soundtrack in the series, too. My opinion. KQ6 and KQ1 are a close second and third (in what order, I couldn't tell you).
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 18, 2011, 12:27:30 AM
As far as I'm concerned, KQ5 had the best atmosphere and most compelling story. KQ6 had a more moving story, but the story of the father and head of his family journeying across God knows where to save them by turning his back on his kingdom to do so is incredibly noble, loyal, and inspiring. Not to mention heroic. That's more interesting to me than a love story, even a very good one. Alexander done good, but he's no Graham.

I love the locations, characters, random events, and the pacing of the gameplay and the story. The perfect fantasy adventure. In every sense. I never minded the dead-ends or spontaneous deaths because I never really ran into them. And if I did I got over it quickly enough.

Best soundtrack in the series, too. My opinion. KQ6 and KQ1 are a close second and third (in what order, I couldn't tell you).

Agreed completely. I first got into the KQ series back in '95--I was just 5 myself--with KQ5--And all of the amazing, breathtaking landscapes, the spooky parts, everything--made me wish I could go to the world of KQ and have adventures there. It's what got me hooked on KQ, and lead me toward Sierra in general, and even after 16 years I can still go back and play KQV and enjoy it.

I also love the Companion's novelization of the story. Makes for an exciting read.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Blackthorne on August 18, 2011, 11:35:31 AM
KQ5 = teh awesome.  KQ6 = teh suck.

That's the short and skinny of it.

Okay, I'm kidding KQ6 doesn't equal teh suck, but I do love KQ5 ... more than I like KQ6.  KQ5 has a great soundtrack, great art and I dig the story.  Yeah, the puzzles are a little inane at times, but hey ... it was 1990.... the weird 80's still had a grip on puzzle design!


Bt
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: KatieHal on August 18, 2011, 11:47:16 AM
KQ5 had a lot going for it, yes, but as I've said somewhere before, I feel like because it was the first point-and-click, the first with voiceovers, and the first with such a huge and noticeable upgrade in quality (graphics and soundwise) over previous games, the flaws in its design and story get overlooked. It was an immense achievement, and a good game--very good even. But it has some serious design problems, and a lot of the voice acting is very lacking, really.

KQ6 still remains my favorite and IMO the peak of the series.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 18, 2011, 01:03:45 PM
KQ5 had a lot going for it, yes, but as I've said somewhere before, I feel like because it was the first point-and-click, the first with voiceovers, and the first with such a huge and noticeable upgrade in quality (graphics and soundwise) over previous games, the flaws in its design and story get overlooked. It was an immense achievement, and a good game--very good even. But it has some serious design problems, and a lot of the voice acting is very lacking, really.

KQ6 still remains my favorite and IMO the peak of the series.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 18, 2011, 02:30:05 PM
How are there flaws in the story, if I may ask?
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Lambonius on August 18, 2011, 02:30:49 PM
KQ5 = teh awesome.  KQ6 = teh suck.

QFT.  lol
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: KatieHal on August 18, 2011, 02:49:29 PM
I won't speak to the puzzle issues, since you didn't say design.

Story-wise, while the set-up is good, the execution...kind of lacks. Graham's family and home have up and vanished completely. These are big stakes and, it would seem, a seriously powerful bad guy! He lucks out in that Cedric is there and can bring him to Crispin for help, and can give him a name to the man who did this.

So Graham sets out in this strange land trying to find his family and...kind of takes him time about it. There's no sense of urgency once you're actually playing the game. The first section feels more like Graham's Adventures in Serenia than a man fearing for his family's lives. It doesn't get much mention even, except for when you reach the plot points of things like Madame Mushka's crystal ball sending you further along your way. Graham has a pretty jovial attitude most of the time considering what's at stake here.

This mostly goes away once you leave Serenia, but it feels like that's mostly because the latter sections of the game are far more brief before you move on to the next step. Serenia by comparison is the largest section of the game.

It just feels like the story could've been constructed a little better to convey that, and avoid jarring the tone of fun adventures with urgent quest. If you want to be specific, that would be more the writing than the story per se, but that's starting to split hairs.

That's on it's own. By comparison to KQ6, you're always aware of time running short, of Alex's quest to save Cassima and by extension the Green Isles. As well, the place he's in actually matters to his quest--Serenia and even the Icy Mountains have little to do with Graham's ultimate goal. In fact, all of the other games relate the land directly to the quest more than KQ5 does, now that I think about it. In KQ5, where Graham is and what he's doing have little to do with his ultimate goal.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 18, 2011, 06:04:55 PM
I won't speak to the puzzle issues, since you didn't say design.

Story-wise, while the set-up is good, the execution...kind of lacks. Graham's family and home have up and vanished completely. These are big stakes and, it would seem, a seriously powerful bad guy! He lucks out in that Cedric is there and can bring him to Crispin for help, and can give him a name to the man who did this.

So Graham sets out in this strange land trying to find his family and...kind of takes him time about it. There's no sense of urgency once you're actually playing the game. The first section feels more like Graham's Adventures in Serenia than a man fearing for his family's lives. It doesn't get much mention even, except for when you reach the plot points of things like Madame Mushka's crystal ball sending you further along your way. Graham has a pretty jovial attitude most of the time considering what's at stake here.

This mostly goes away once you leave Serenia, but it feels like that's mostly because the latter sections of the game are far more brief before you move on to the next step. Serenia by comparison is the largest section of the game.

It just feels like the story could've been constructed a little better to convey that, and avoid jarring the tone of fun adventures with urgent quest. If you want to be specific, that would be more the writing than the story per se, but that's starting to split hairs.

That's on it's own. By comparison to KQ6, you're always aware of time running short, of Alex's quest to save Cassima and by extension the Green Isles. As well, the place he's in actually matters to his quest--Serenia and even the Icy Mountains have little to do with Graham's ultimate goal. In fact, all of the other games relate the land directly to the quest more than KQ5 does, now that I think about it. In KQ5, where Graham is and what he's doing have little to do with his ultimate goal.

As for the lack of urgency...You have to remember Graham is in all new territory, for one. There's a lot to see, a lot to do. Cedric tells him early on that Mordack's castle is beyond the mountain path and his main goal is to get ready to go to mountains...But he gets sidetracked into sub-plots as well as helping others. It's well established that Graham is a very good man, and will put helping others above his main priority; in most cases, sometimes helping others does indeed help him in his main priority.

As for his attitude...This apparently wasn't so much something that was overlooked as something that was intentional on the part of the writer. Josh Mandel claimed, as the voice of Graham, that he felt Graham's emotional range should be higher given the plot and discussed this with Roberta. Roberta in essence said that Graham is the hero; he is always "buff". A stoic man. The narration, however, does reveal he is sad. I remember one narration specifically making mention of how seeing the pretty bird bathing itself momentarily allows Graham to forget his sadness, or something like that.

Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Damar on August 18, 2011, 07:00:54 PM
Crazy emo, melodramatic narrator!  Can't even look at a bird without getting some overwrought, unnecessary message about how Graham is sad!

For its flaws, King's Quest 5 really is a great game and one of the best of the series.  I'm also in the camp that likes 6 better, but 5 is fantastic too.  In fact some of the different areas of 5 are among my favorite locations in King's Quest.  The desert, for example I loved.  I also enjoyed the look of the Harpy's island and wish you could explore more of it.  And Mordak's castle was very well rendered and designed.  The music too is the best in King's Quest.  As much as I enjoy the music from 6 and 4, there's just no comparison to the Willow's Song, Mordak's Theme and it's variations, and the original Cassima theme which later inspired Girl in the Tower.

And really, the flaws aren't terrible.  The illogical puzzles didn't bother me much (except getting the emeralds out of the pouch and thinking to throw them to hidden elves.)  And most of the flaws are more a result of the technology being new.  Yes, the red X looks bad now, but the interface was new and it was no more jarring than the game responding to your command with, "You can't do that" or "I don't understand what a -blank- is."

I will agree with Katie that the mood could have been a touch more urgent in Serenia.  Or rather, some of the dialogue could have been tweaked to be more realistic.  I remember thinking that Graham and the people of Serenia were just way, way too polite.  It seemed like every transaction you had was obligated to end with a, "Thank you, my good man, this will certainly prove useful in my quest."  "And good day to you, sir.  Stop in again any time."  "I will, thank you."  "Thank you!"  "No, thank you!" Or something of the like.  Maybe it was just me, but it kind of bugged me a little.  At the very least the dialogue could have added Graham occasionally asking people if they'd heard of Mordak.  But these are just minor criticisms.  They're nothing that hurt the game in the long run.

The only thing that really bothers me about KQ5 are the voices.  The game is much better without them.  There's really not a single standout in the bunch.  At best, the voices are passable, like Mordak and Icebella and Cedric (roll your eyes all you want, but you know that's exactly how an owl wearing a waistcoat and monocle should sound!).  At worst they're a lisping narrator, shopkeepers reading their lines, and a guy making a really annoying growly wolf noise.  I know that none of these guys are actually actors, that they were all designers, and yes the technology was new, but it just didn't sound good.

That's really the only major complaint I have with the game though.  Everything else about KQ5 is pretty fantastic.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 18, 2011, 07:05:09 PM
As for the lack of urgency...You have to remember Graham is in all new territory, for one. There's a lot to see, a lot to do. Cedric tells him early on that Mordack's castle is beyond the mountain path and his main goal is to get ready to go to mountains...But he gets sidetracked into sub-plots as well as helping others. It's well established that Graham is a very good man, and will put helping others above his main priority; in most cases, sometimes helping others does indeed help him in his main priority.

What exactly were the subplots? It might be my poor memory, but I never felt like there was an underlying story that deviated from Graham's main quest. There were puzzles, but the puzzles were linked to obstacles for the most part, not helping people. The only help quest I remember is the Weeping Willow, but she gives Graham the harp, so it's a trade, not really a subplot. But once Graham got the tambourine for the snake, his path to Mordack was open. So there was a whole lot of work to just get past one obstacle. A lot of running around in circles, chasing your own tail. I never felt like the game progressed at all until after all these obstacles, and then once you get past the snake, it's a straightway to Mordack. What I liked about KQ6 is that you were traveling over the same five islands progressing the same storyline. Also, the extended storyline was nice as well. The entire experience was an adventure. KQ5 felt too much like window-shopping in Serenia, and then remembering to save the royal family.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 18, 2011, 08:34:44 PM
Crazy emo, melodramatic narrator!  Can't even look at a bird without getting some overwrought, unnecessary message about how Graham is sad!

For its flaws, King's Quest 5 really is a great game and one of the best of the series.  I'm also in the camp that likes 6 better, but 5 is fantastic too.  In fact some of the different areas of 5 are among my favorite locations in King's Quest.  The desert, for example I loved.  I also enjoyed the look of the Harpy's island and wish you could explore more of it.  And Mordak's castle was very well rendered and designed.  The music too is the best in King's Quest.  As much as I enjoy the music from 6 and 4, there's just no comparison to the Willow's Song, Mordak's Theme and it's variations, and the original Cassima theme which later inspired Girl in the Tower.

And really, the flaws aren't terrible.  The illogical puzzles didn't bother me much (except getting the emeralds out of the pouch and thinking to throw them to hidden elves.)  And most of the flaws are more a result of the technology being new.  Yes, the red X looks bad now, but the interface was new and it was no more jarring than the game responding to your command with, "You can't do that" or "I don't understand what a -blank- is."

I will agree with Katie that the mood could have been a touch more urgent in Serenia.  Or rather, some of the dialogue could have been tweaked to be more realistic.  I remember thinking that Graham and the people of Serenia were just way, way too polite.  It seemed like every transaction you had was obligated to end with a, "Thank you, my good man, this will certainly prove useful in my quest."  "And good day to you, sir.  Stop in again any time."  "I will, thank you."  "Thank you!"  "No, thank you!" Or something of the like.  Maybe it was just me, but it kind of bugged me a little.  At the very least the dialogue could have added Graham occasionally asking people if they'd heard of Mordak.  But these are just minor criticisms.  They're nothing that hurt the game in the long run.

The only thing that really bothers me about KQ5 are the voices.  The game is much better without them.  There's really not a single standout in the bunch.  At best, the voices are passable, like Mordak and Icebella and Cedric (roll your eyes all you want, but you know that's exactly how an owl wearing a waistcoat and monocle should sound!).  At worst they're a lisping narrator, shopkeepers reading their lines, and a guy making a really annoying growly wolf noise.  I know that none of these guys are actually actors, that they were all designers, and yes the technology was new, but it just didn't sound good.

That's really the only major complaint I have with the game though.  Everything else about KQ5 is pretty fantastic.

Josh Mandel actually is a voice actor. I spoke to him about two months ago, apparently he studied off studying voice acting--Years before he ever even considered a career in computer games. It shows as he's probably the best voice in the game. I hope TTG brings him back, if they make Graham the protagonist or even have Graham in a cameo--For me, Josh Mandel = KQ's Sean Connery.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Bludshot on August 18, 2011, 09:47:27 PM
King's Quest V for me is like those "so bad it's good" movies.  Horrid puzzles, goofy voice acting, and a pretty underwhelming plot.  But there is just so much unintentional hilarity I sometimes go back to play it again.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Damar on August 19, 2011, 06:50:26 AM
Josh Mandel actually is a voice actor. I spoke to him about two months ago, apparently he studied off studying voice acting--Years before he ever even considered a career in computer games. It shows as he's probably the best voice in the game. I hope TTG brings him back, if they make Graham the protagonist or even have Graham in a cameo--For me, Josh Mandel = KQ's Sean Connery.

This might be sacrilege to say, but I was not a fan of Josh Mandel's Graham.  I didn't like how he delivered his lines as they sounded kind of forced.  Also I felt that his voice in general just didn't sound polished enough to be in voice acting.  But more than that, he just did not sound like Graham to me.  I'm sure everyone has had an experience with a book that's been made into a movie and you watch and say, "That's not so and so."  I had that with Graham.  It's nothing against Josh Mandel but he just sounds like an everyman, which Graham is not.  Yes, he's not royal blood, but he is a hero.  Mandel has the gentleness but not the strength that I expect of Graham.  (Plus the issues with the line delivery and professional polish, which again are totally my opinion.)  And of course all fan games prior to TSL go after Mandel to voice Graham, and I understand why to some degree.  But I do strongly prefer the TSL Graham's voice.  It has the strength that Mandel's voice lacked.

Regardless, even if Mandel did have voice acting training, he was picked more because he was a designer at that point.  That's where all the KQ5 voices came from.  And it really does take away from the game, I feel.  I understand the thought of voicing your own game to do something new, but it just didn't work.  I'm left feeling that if they wanted to put voices to the game, they should have just hired actors or left well enough alone since the game was already on the shelves in disk form.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on August 19, 2011, 06:59:45 AM
It was my favorite for a long time.  It just had that Adventure feel, it flowed well and the pace was good.
KQ6 had a good story and it was a lot of fun, the difference really is in the feel of the games.  For example,
KQ5 has desert, snowy mountains, wilderness, ocean, etc..  It seemed more expansive, if that makes sense.
Its really a hard call between the two. I just remember KQ5 being one of the first VGA games and being blown away.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 19, 2011, 09:43:32 AM
Quote
Josh Mandel = KQ's Sean Connery.
About the only thing they have in common is a beard...
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 19, 2011, 04:10:48 PM
Quote
Josh Mandel = KQ's Sean Connery.
About the only thing they have in common is a beard...

What I mean by that is, for me Josh is THE King Graham. Other actors have played him (for example, KQ8's actor, TSL's actor) but he is by far, IMO, the best. A lot of James Bond fans feel Sean Connery IS James Bond, the definitive actor in the role despite there being others. That's the analogy.

(Posted on: August 19, 2011, 06:05:20 PM)


This might be sacrilege to say, but I was not a fan of Josh Mandel's Graham.  I didn't like how he delivered his lines as they sounded kind of forced.  Also I felt that his voice in general just didn't sound polished enough to be in voice acting.  But more than that, he just did not sound like Graham to me.  I'm sure everyone has had an experience with a book that's been made into a movie and you watch and say, "That's not so and so."  I had that with Graham.  It's nothing against Josh Mandel but he just sounds like an everyman, which Graham is not.  Yes, he's not royal blood, but he is a hero.  Mandel has the gentleness but not the strength that I expect of Graham.  (Plus the issues with the line delivery and professional polish, which again are totally my opinion.)  And of course all fan games prior to TSL go after Mandel to voice Graham, and I understand why to some degree.  But I do strongly prefer the TSL Graham's voice.  It has the strength that Mandel's voice lacked.

Regardless, even if Mandel did have voice acting training, he was picked more because he was a designer at that point.  That's where all the KQ5 voices came from.  And it really does take away from the game, I feel.  I understand the thought of voicing your own game to do something new, but it just didn't work.  I'm left feeling that if they wanted to put voices to the game, they should have just hired actors or left well enough alone since the game was already on the shelves in disk form.

I think Graham sounding like an everyman is kind of the point. He's like a Harrison Ford sort of hero. Think about it--Ford played brave, iconic heroes, and yet his nature, his mannerisms, his voice, etc all speak to an everyman quality--Spielberg and Lucas have said that's part of what makes Ford own the part. Graham as played by Josh does sound forceful enough and wise enough to be King...In fact, I'd say that the actor playing him in TSL has a more gentle, nuanced vocal style. Graham is more direct, strong...The only time I remember him being played gentle is at the end of KQ6.

I mean look at Alexander's voice...He has the same sort of everyman quality too, despite being Prince Alexander. Every member of the Royal Family sounds--even in later, more polished games--like a modern 1990s non-Ethnic American (except for Graham in KQ8, where he just sounds like a generic British king). Look at Rosella's voice in KQ7. She's almost a Valley Girl in terms of her voice.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Damar on August 19, 2011, 05:38:48 PM
There's no almost about it.  She was a valley girl.  And that's probably the thing I like least about KQ7.  They really dropped the ball on Rosella.  Everything from her attitude to her voice to her bursting out in song was just wrong.

Being an everyman works only if you have flaws that the audience can relate to.  Graham doesn't qualify for me.  He's a bigger boyscout than Superman.  That's part of the appeal of Graham.  He's a stand up guy, he can do the impossible, but he's a bit too good to be true.  He's not flawed at all.  And that's not a criticism.  It works for the character.  But regardless of whether he's an everyman or not Mandel's delivery just didn't work for me in KQ5.  It sounded like community theater.  Not horrible community theater, but still.  It was like hearing your uncle voice Graham.  His delivery has gotten better and he has a better deliver in the AGDI and Infamous Adventures games, but even then he just doesn't sound like Graham to me.  He's not how I hear the king in my head.  For me, Josh Mandel = KQ's George Lazenby.  Not horrible but just not right for the part.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Blackthorne on August 19, 2011, 06:11:38 PM
At the time, they just didn't have the budget (or the insight) to hire professional actors.  They just used who they had around the office! 

QFGIV scored a major coup in it's professional voice cast.


Bt
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 19, 2011, 06:27:41 PM
Strange. I always loved Mandel's performance in KQ5. I even enjoy it more than that of the remakes. Every time he introduces himself as King Graham I just think...perfect. To me the voice has always matched the face (at least the one from KQ5).
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 19, 2011, 07:09:22 PM
Strange. I always loved Mandel's performance in KQ5. I even enjoy it more than that of the remakes. Every time he introduces himself as King Graham I just think...perfect. To me the voice has always matched the face (at least the one from KQ5).

Indeed. "I'm King Graham of Daventry, and this is my friend, Cedric."
The audio quality for Josh's voice is MUCH better in KQ6. He actually sounds a bit different.

KQ5: http://www.zshare.net/audio/938892678400c21b/

KQ6: http://www.zshare.net/audio/93889389e86d4a0f/

Consider too that in KQ5, Josh not only voiced Graham, but he also voiced one of the Harpies AND the innkeeper's thug (the one who says, 'Hey boss, dis guy looks like a real trouble maka, whaddaya want me to do with 'im?")
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 19, 2011, 08:37:07 PM
Quote
Being an everyman works only if you have flaws that the audience can relate to.  Graham doesn't qualify for me.  He's a bigger boyscout than Superman.  That's part of the appeal of Graham.  He's a stand up guy, he can do the impossible, but he's a bit too good to be true.  He's not flawed at all.  And that's not a criticism.  It works for the character.

Other than sending maidens off to be sacrificed to the dragon, including his own daughter... Sure 'flawless'.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Lambonius on August 19, 2011, 09:07:57 PM
I find it interesting that people are saying that Josh Mandel didn't sound like the voice of Graham that they had in their heads.  If you think about it, Graham hardly speaks at all in any King's Quest game before KQ5.  It's not only the first time you hear Graham's voice, it's really the first time the character actually has a spoken part at all.  Before that, any text in the games was basically just narration.  I suppose if one played the floppy version of KQ5 first then it might be different, though.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 19, 2011, 09:38:37 PM
Quote
Being an everyman works only if you have flaws that the audience can relate to.  Graham doesn't qualify for me.  He's a bigger boyscout than Superman.  That's part of the appeal of Graham.  He's a stand up guy, he can do the impossible, but he's a bit too good to be true.  He's not flawed at all.  And that's not a criticism.  It works for the character.

Other than sending maidens off to be sacrificed to the dragon, including his own daughter... Sure 'flawless'.

I literally laughed out loud. True story.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 19, 2011, 11:21:41 PM
Quote
I find it interesting that people are saying that Josh Mandel didn't sound like the voice of Graham that they had in their heads.  If you think about it, Graham hardly speaks at all in any King's Quest game before KQ5.  It's not only the first time you hear Graham's voice, it's really the first time the character actually has a spoken part at all.  Before that, any text in the games was basically just narration.  I suppose if one played the floppy version of KQ5 first then it might be different, though.

This is true of KQ1 and KQ2! The narrator also only did running monolog of what Graham was thinking in the early games.

Graham also has a few lines in KQ3, and lesser extent in KQ4, where he speaks to his son.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Lambonius on August 20, 2011, 01:23:43 PM
Key words, "a few lines."  KQ5 is his first major speaking role, though.  That's what I meant.  :)
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: KatieHal on August 21, 2011, 01:18:34 PM
Well, even if Graham had very few directly attributed lines (i.e., "Blah blah," said Graham), you do get a sense of his personality even in the older games.

Rosella does sound very valley girl in KQ7, yes. And it is a shame, and I think the fault for that falls on both the voice actress as well as the lines she was given....but we can get to that more when we discuss KQ7.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Damar on August 21, 2011, 02:38:43 PM
Quote
Being an everyman works only if you have flaws that the audience can relate to.  Graham doesn't qualify for me.  He's a bigger boyscout than Superman.  That's part of the appeal of Graham.  He's a stand up guy, he can do the impossible, but he's a bit too good to be true.  He's not flawed at all.  And that's not a criticism.  It works for the character.

Other than sending maidens off to be sacrificed to the dragon, including his own daughter... Sure 'flawless'.

How did I know that would get brought up?  I almost put a caveat in my post, but figured I ramble enough as it is.  Yeah, that's a flawed moment for Graham, but the difference is that we never see it.  We see Graham as the virile boyscout (that felt wrong to type) in KQ2 and then we see him as the rejuvenated virile boyscout (ok, that really felt wrong to type) in KQ3.  We never actually see a beaten down, flawed Graham.  We're told about him, we witness the decline of his kingdom, but we never actually see the flawed man.  And that makes a difference.  Everything we see is Graham not being flawed.  Graham is a bigger boyscout than Superman because his red kryptonite moment didn't occur on screen.  Also because he's never starred in crappy sequels.

And now a rambling caveat since it will no doubt be necessary.  Yes, in KQ1 and 2 you can make Graham be flawed.  You can bribe people with treasure and use brawn instead of brain.  You can even make Graham do very naughty things like kill a monk or do stupid things like talk to Hagatha in her cave.  But those don't count as flaws because they stop you from completing the game in the best possible way, or outright kill you.

And yeah, Lamb, I actually did play KQ5 first on disk.  I hadn't heard the voice until years later when I got the whole collection on CD-ROM.  But even if I hadn't, you still get a concept of Graham in your head and that includes voice.  KQ5 could have given us a jaundiced Graham with a unibrow and it wouldn't have gone against what little detail they've shown of Graham in previous games.  But it would have been against how people imagine Graham.  The voice is just an extension of that.  Josh Mandel sounds like someone's family member to me, not like Graham.  And in the world of King's Quest, that's what he was.  He was part of the family.  For me, he just didn't fit.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Blackthorne on August 21, 2011, 04:02:35 PM
You know, I often hear people complain about the puzzles and other problems with KQ5 - but I never hear any suggestions on how to change or fix them.

What would you do to change/improve KQ5?

Bt
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 21, 2011, 04:35:13 PM
I would prefer the usage of items to make more sense. It's hard to imagine how I would 'improve' the puzzles, because the puzzles don't make much sense as it stands. I would need to recreate the puzzles. I just don't get "emeralds+honey, cheese+mordack's wand+crispin's wand, pie+yeti's face, and snake+tambourine". King's Quest has been known for puzzles that are memorable and engaging. KQ5's puzzles were confusing at first. I don't even think they make sense to this day, but at least I know how to get through it without too much of a hassle. But once again, to make the puzzles better, I would start from scratch and have the items be related to their respective puzzle.

I don't think that all of the puzzles were nonsensical however. Coin to Madame Mushka makes sense. Fish in a barrel, needle in a haystack. Even the golden heart to the weeping willow. There were just a handful of puzzles that annoyed me because of how weird they were. Like I had said earlier, the only way they made sense was by process of elimination. The puzzles could have made more sense without having to go out on a limb.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Lambonius on August 21, 2011, 04:48:56 PM
Snake plus tambourine makes sense.  Loud noises drive away animals--what is Graham carrying that could make a loud noise?  Etc.  Now granted, if a tambourine could drive the snake away, certainly Graham probably could have done so with just his voice alone.  ;)

I may be in the minority, but I never had trouble with the emeralds & honey puzzle.  The basic ingredients and inventory items make sense to me.  What it really needed was some better descriptions along the way, like the first time the elf grabs the emerald, the game could say, "if only Graham had a way to make the elf "stick" around a little longer."  Or something like that.  Some pun that alludes to the stickiness of honey.  The main problem I think people have with that puzzle is that it's a three-strikes-and-you're-out dead-end situation.  :)

The only truly illogical puzzle in that game is the moldy cheese powering the wand machine.  Everything else makes sense and has precedence in terms of "adventure game puzzle logic."  :)
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 21, 2011, 05:07:52 PM
Snake plus tambourine makes sense.  Loud noises drive away animals--what is Graham carrying that could make a loud noise?  Etc.  Now granted, if a tambourine could drive the snake away, certainly Graham probably could have done so with just his voice alone.  ;)

I may be in the minority, but I never had trouble with the emeralds & honey puzzle.  The basic ingredients and inventory items make sense to me.  What it really needed was some better descriptions along the way, like the first time the elf grabs the emerald, the game could say, "if only Graham had a way to make the elf "stick" around a little longer."  Or something like that.  Some pun that alludes to the stickiness of honey.  The main problem I think people have with that puzzle is that it's a three-strikes-and-you're-out dead-end situation.  :)

The only truly illogical puzzle in that game is the moldy cheese powering the wand machine.  Everything else makes sense and has precedence in terms of "adventure game puzzle logic."  :)

Well, that's exactly what I would argue. The emeralds make sense, but I would prefer a contextual statement from the narrator on all accounts. Even the snake puzzle. I used the tambourine without a problem in my puzzle-solving skills, but even the "snakes are afraid of loud sounds" argument doesn't make sense when regarding a tambourine. Like you had said, Graham's voice is louder than any tambourine. I would even suggest that the harp could make a louder sound, and even a brighter sound than the tambourine. Tambourines (at least the ones I use for percussion) are not built for decibel-breaking records.

I'll accept the "loud sound" argument just because that was their intention, but there could have been a better instrument to use for that puzzle. Now, a tambourine would be perfect if the snake is annoyed by the tambourine's irritating redundancy.  :P
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Blackthorne on August 21, 2011, 05:25:19 PM
With the Moldy Cheese, I'd put a book in Mordack's Library Graham could find, which mentions that through Alchemey, you can use moldy cheese to recharge a wand.

Something like that.  The Emeralds puzzle would be better too if it went down like Lambo described.


Bt
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 21, 2011, 05:54:45 PM
I think the main issue is that it wasn't that the puzzles were put in with no thought or just thrown in for filler--it's just that you have to remember they were dealing with an entirely new engine in many ways, a new interface, a whole new way to design games. All of these factors probably were overwhelming and might've happened the development of puzzles and other things. I remember hearing for example that Cedric was actually originally supposed to be a wise, helpful Owl. But everytime he'd be put into certain scenes, the game would crash from a lack of space--Remember how weak computing technology was then compared to now--So Cedric became the cowardly Owl instead of the helpful Owl. Every scene that he stays out of is a scene he was probably supposed to be in and give advice in.

So a lot of these puzzles might've actually had Cedric's help, making them less illogical, but his role in the game was severely reduced due to technological restraints. And I'm sure with technological problems came budget and scheduling concerns. Sierra was already a public company when KQ5 went into production.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Damar on August 21, 2011, 06:04:27 PM
In the Dark Forest, I would have made it clear that the glowing eyes were elves.  Maybe have them scatter like cockroaches into the forest the moment Graham enters the screen.  Then the emeralds would make a bit more sense rather than just dropping them on the ground for random glowing eyes (which honestly could have just as easily been evil glowing eyes rather than friendly elves).  And after dropping three without the honey, I'd have the narrator say something like Lamb was talking about.  "Looks like Graham couldn't get the elves to stick around.  Too bad you're out of emeralds now."  That way it gives a hint and lets you know to restore the game.

I'd let you know that there's a hole in the boat by clicking the eye icon on it rather than let you die and then tell you there's a hole.

I would have also stopped the repeated puzzle answers.  For example, I'd have changed the puzzle with the harpies to, say, throwing a gem from the treasure temple off the cliff into the water to distract them rather than playing the harp again.  Not sure what I'd do for Dink, but it wouldn't be the tambourine again.

And I'd agree with Blackthorne about putting a message in Mordack's study about the wand charger.  Maybe have it mention that the machine uses dark powers and requires a living sacrifice to power up.  It sounds evil and technically cheese is "alive."  Yeah, it's a stretch, but an easier stretch than just guessing to toss some cheese in there.  The book would also tell you which tray gets which wand because it's pretty much just a 50-50 guess on where you put the wand.

Oh, and once you got the spells and the information on the wand, it would trigger Mordack to arrive and fall asleep.  No waiting around for no reason.

I also would have had Graham ask people whether they knew about Mordack in Serenia just to show that Graham does have focus on that ultimate goal.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Lambonius on August 21, 2011, 08:30:15 PM
In the Dark Forest, I would have made it clear that the glowing eyes were elves.  Maybe have them scatter like cockroaches into the forest the moment Graham enters the screen.  Then the emeralds would make a bit more sense rather than just dropping them on the ground for random glowing eyes (which honestly could have just as easily been evil glowing eyes rather than friendly elves).  And after dropping three without the honey, I'd have the narrator say something like Lamb was talking about.  "Looks like Graham couldn't get the elves to stick around.  Too bad you're out of emeralds now."  That way it gives a hint and lets you know to restore the game.

I'd let you know that there's a hole in the boat by clicking the eye icon on it rather than let you die and then tell you there's a hole.

I would have also stopped the repeated puzzle answers.  For example, I'd have changed the puzzle with the harpies to, say, throwing a gem from the treasure temple off the cliff into the water to distract them rather than playing the harp again.  Not sure what I'd do for Dink, but it wouldn't be the tambourine again.

And I'd agree with Blackthorne about putting a message in Mordack's study about the wand charger.  Maybe have it mention that the machine uses dark powers and requires a living sacrifice to power up.  It sounds evil and technically cheese is "alive."  Yeah, it's a stretch, but an easier stretch than just guessing to toss some cheese in there.  The book would also tell you which tray gets which wand because it's pretty much just a 50-50 guess on where you put the wand.

Oh, and once you got the spells and the information on the wand, it would trigger Mordack to arrive and fall asleep.  No waiting around for no reason.

I also would have had Graham ask people whether they knew about Mordack in Serenia just to show that Graham does have focus on that ultimate goal.

Those are all great ideas.  I especially like the idea of a clear cut trigger for Mordack appearing and falling asleep.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 21, 2011, 10:01:31 PM
You know what? I'm happy with the way KQ5 is now, but it was still be interesting if KQ5 were to be redesigned in a more "director's cut" way with Cedric's role being as fleshed out as it was supposed to be and with  proper hints and additional content to explain all the puzzles. Maybe even redesign or add to one or two.

That would be neat. Gearing that Cedric was originally supposed to be a completely different character makes me quite curious to play such a game with a wise helpful owl.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 21, 2011, 10:24:39 PM
You know what? I'm happy with the way KQ5 is now, but it was still be interesting if KQ5 were to be redesigned in a more "director's cut" way with Cedric's role being as fleshed out as it was supposed to be and with  proper hints and additional content to explain all the puzzles. Maybe even redesign or add to one or two.

That would be neat. Gearing that Cedric was originally supposed to be a completely different character makes me quite curious to play such a game with a wise helpful owl.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 21, 2011, 10:28:08 PM
You know what? I'm happy with the way KQ5 is now, but it was still be interesting if KQ5 were to be redesigned in a more "director's cut" way with Cedric's role being as fleshed out as it was supposed to be and with  proper hints and additional content to explain all the puzzles. Maybe even redesign or add to one or two.

That would be neat. Gearing that Cedric was originally supposed to be a completely different character makes me quite curious to play such a game with a wise helpful owl.

Indeed. A KQ5 "remake" of that sort would be quite cool, especially since the technical limitations which precluded KQ5 from being what Roberta wanted it to be, aren't there anymore. I'd love to see Cedric as a wise helpful owl. He's cool as he is---I'm one of those who never hated Cedric--but seeing him in an expanded role would be cool.

I've asked Roberta/Ken for years if they'd ever open the vaults and allow fan access to her design documents and design notes--she still has them--as Al Lowe did, but to no avail. Seeing Roberta's design documents and notes would probably be like the Holy Grail for quite a few KQ fans--at least for me.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: KatieHal on August 22, 2011, 07:20:19 AM
Some really good ideas about how to improve KQ5 :)

For some additional suggestions, I'd also get rid of the whole roc's/huge bird's nest scenario entirely, and have Cassima's necklace show up somewhere that makes sense. Maybe outside Mordack's castle, or in the maze someplace. And I'd also like the story to connect events a little more--give you a reason to venture into the desert, other than that it's there. Maybe stories in the town about how the desert raiders are harassing their town and causing problems, so when you go to find them, it's for a purpose. And have a little more about Mordack in the game as well, stories about him or possibly he could pop up somewhere. Just...something to bring it all together more cohesively.

I think I'd nix the cheese altogether and make it something else Graham had to use or do to charge up the wand.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 22, 2011, 08:15:33 AM
Quote
"director's cut" way with Cedric's role being as fleshed out as it was supposed to be and with  proper hints and additional content to explain all the puzzles.

How he was supposed to be? I'm intrigued to you have an interview or article on hand?

Quote
or in the maze someplace.
OH, ya that would work out well... It's already a place where you can wander around endlessly... without knowledge that you need to find Dink (to get the key), or even that you need to use tamborine on Dink.

So you are suggesting putting more 'random' items hidden in the maze, that people may not even know they need to find in order to help Cassima?

I also rather like the Roc's nest scenario... It adds excitement and danger to the story... It also has some of the coolest backgrounds in the game, the fly over to its nest, and that little mysterious village you can't get to.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 22, 2011, 01:20:00 PM
How he was supposed to be? I'm intrigued to you have an interview or article on hand?

Did you miss Perceval's post?

I think the main issue is that it wasn't that the puzzles were put in with no thought or just thrown in for filler--it's just that you have to remember they were dealing with an entirely new engine in many ways, a new interface, a whole new way to design games. All of these factors probably were overwhelming and might've happened the development of puzzles and other things. I remember hearing for example that Cedric was actually originally supposed to be a wise, helpful Owl. But everytime he'd be put into certain scenes, the game would crash from a lack of space--Remember how weak computing technology was then compared to now--So Cedric became the cowardly Owl instead of the helpful Owl. Every scene that he stays out of is a scene he was probably supposed to be in and give advice in.

So a lot of these puzzles might've actually had Cedric's help, making them less illogical, but his role in the game was severely reduced due to technological restraints. And I'm sure with technological problems came budget and scheduling concerns. Sierra was already a public company when KQ5 went into production.

Quote
I also rather like the Roc's nest scenario... It adds excitement and danger to the story... It also has some of the coolest backgrounds in the game, the fly over to its nest, and that little mysterious village you can't get to.

Indeed. I love that part. Far removed from common sense or not. All it really needs is to be fleshed out a bit...maybe not even so much.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 22, 2011, 02:40:56 PM
Quote
Did you miss Perceval's post?
Ok, I direct my question to Percival! Where is an interview and article that talks about that?
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 22, 2011, 03:49:34 PM
Quote
Did you miss Perceval's post?
Ok, I direct my question to Percival! Where is an interview and article that talks about that?

There was an audio interviewwith Josh Mandel conducted by the guys of Sierra Music Central a few years back wherein he mentioned this. It's the same interview, if I'm not mistaken, where he talks about how he felt during KQ5's production that Graham should be played with more emotion, and Roberta vetoed this idea saying Graham was ALWAYS "buff" being the hero. So Josh had to play Graham within a much more narrow band than he felt he should've.

I specifically remember him saying that Cedric's role was to be larger, but the game/game build would crash every time he was put into certain rooms because it would kill the game's memory, and so his role was changed from that of a "friendly wise owl"--more common in fantasy--to Cedric the barely helpful, cowardly owl we got in KQ5. Notice how Cedric almost never goes anywhere with you, for example, not into the Desert, or Dark Forest, or into the Inn, or into Town, or into any of the Town's buildings, or into Mordack's castle/dungeon? I imagine those were places the game crashed at when he was put into it.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 22, 2011, 05:06:59 PM
Ah yes, I recall that interview. Great interview, actually. Josh really opened up and revealed a lot in that interview. I believe he even pointed out an alternate ending to Shivers or Phantasmagoria or something that was much better than what ended up in the final product.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 22, 2011, 05:07:57 PM
I'd like to hear the interview actually! Looks like something that would be good knowledge for the KQ5 development article.

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Absence_Makes_the_Heart_Go_Yonder_Development

I found an interview with Josh where he discusses his involvement in KQ5 and the voice acting;
http://www.frodrig.com/macedoniamagazine/joshi.htm

Quote
J.M.- Thank you! I did have quite a bit of prior experience in voice acting before going to Sierra. I had been in a movie, on several television programs, and did voices for radio programs and commercials. My major in college was Acting and I had worked as a stand-up comedian for many years before going into advertising.

I was not very happy with my performance in King's Quest V. It was the first time Roberta had directed (although she had Mark Seibert to help her) and she wanted King Graham to always be "buff" and brave. There were many times in the recording where I would try to do some real acting, and give Graham moods and emotions, but Roberta kept saying, "He's never tired, he's King Graham!" or "He's never worried, he's King Graham!". So I felt the performance did not have enough emotion in it, but people seemed to like it anyway, so maybe Roberta was on to something.

Nothing in there about Cedric unfortunately. He does make a comment about Phantas ending and Laura Bow II.

There is also more here on his pre-Sierra acting career;
http://www.adventureclassicgaming.com/index.php/site/interviews/196/
Quote
Before you joined Sierra On-Line in 1990, you worked as an actor and a comedian. How satisfied were you with your career up to that time? What gaming, programming, and designing experiences did you have prior to joining Sierra On-Line?
 
My partner and I had largely stopped touring and performing about four years before I went to Sierra. I still did a fair amount of acting nights and weekends, but to keep a roof over my head, for my "day job," I went into advertising.

On a related note, as far as I know Josh Mandel didn't have any part in developing KQ5 (though he came in later to lend his voice for the CD-rom version). He was hard on work on KQ1SCI at the time. He is not included in the KQ5 floppy credits. KQ1SCI may have even been his first job at Sierra?

From the Royal Scribe, in the original KQ collection;
Quote
Josh Mandel started at Sierra On-Line in 1990 as an Assistant Producer, his first project being the SCI remake of King's Quest I. But he preferred to spend his time writing sarcastic text for any designer who would let him. Scott Murphy and Mark Crowe gave him his first opportunity by allowing him to write the parody software boxes and bogus hint book for Space Quest IV. Since then, he's been a contributing writer on most Sierra adventures, as well as the director, writer, and co-designer of Freddy Pharkas, Frontier Pharmacist. Josh is currently designing and directing Space Quest VI.
 
Royal Scribe's note: When we began compiling material for this collection, we interviewed a few of the many people who have worked on at least one King's Quest. Here are Josh's responses.
 
1. Which King's Quest game(s) did you work on? Doing what? I worked on King's Quest I -SCI, the remake done in 1990. It was my very first project when I came to Sierra; the game had been languishing for awhile because Roberta was so heavily involved with King's Quest V, which was in progress at the same time. While I was officially titled "Producer," Roberta let me get more hands-on: I rewrote most of the actual game text, added a lot of new responses, and slightly altered some of the puzzles. The original game, groundbreaking as it was, was somewhat terse and brief. I tried to make it more fairy tale-ish in its prose, so it would fit in better with the much more detailed King's Quest IV and King's Quest V.
 
I also worked on King's Quest V as the voice of King Graham (and several other voices), a role I reprised briefly in King's Quest VI.
 
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Bludshot on August 23, 2011, 12:23:33 AM
If we're having a discussion on how KQV could be remade.  I think the only real solution is to scrap everything except the premise of "Mordack wants revenge."

Almost nothing in that game makes any sense.  What kind of warm fertile valley has an arid desert and an icy mountain range within several hundred yards of each other?
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 23, 2011, 12:39:34 AM
If we're having a discussion on how KQV could be remade.  I think the only real solution is to scrap everything except the premise of "Mordack wants revenge."

Almost nothing in that game makes any sense.  What kind of warm fertile valley has an arid desert and an icy mountain range within several hundred yards of each other?

The kind that exists in a fairy tale fantasy world, not in the "everything must be hyperrealistic and gritty" world of 2011.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 23, 2011, 12:58:18 AM
I believe I remember him saying that KQ1SCI was his first project there. Or at least his first big project. I think the former, though...
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: DawsonJ on August 23, 2011, 04:03:03 AM
For those who haven't thoroughly played Space Quest VI, you've gotta check out the KQV reference, starting at time 4:36:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP7VTeTCVCU
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 23, 2011, 09:37:12 AM
Hah yes that was classic.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: KatieHal on August 23, 2011, 11:07:01 AM
What kind of warm fertile valley has an arid desert and an icy mountain range within several hundred yards of each other?

The kind that exists in a fairy tale fantasy world, not in the "everything must be hyperrealistic and gritty" world of 2011.

Proper geography and non-laws of nature defying biomes really aren't what I'd call a "hyperrealistic and gritty" trope. :)
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 23, 2011, 11:39:29 AM
Quote
What kind of warm fertile valley has an arid desert and an icy mountain range within several hundred yards of each other?

I've personally seen places due to water table division in the rock, or geology, where rather arid area bordered a fertile area, sometimes forests. There are a few places in Nevada and California that are like that. Even Hawaii. The Big Island for example has arid regions, snow covered mountains, and rainforests within only a few miles of each other!

I don't remember if the valley itself was said to be 'warm' as far as I know? There is a reference to it being early spring in the documentation!

The 'icy mountains' are said to be 'several hours away" from the valley, when you first head into the mountains. Not 'yards".

Check out an image of the Coral Pink Sand Dunes in Utah! The dunes are a small desert bordering a forest nearby. It's even got snow sometimes of the year!
(http://scenicutah.com/south-west/images/south-west0023.jpg)

Even deserts come in many varieties, depending on where they are located (really just has to do with water precipation levels)!

Here is the smallest desert in the world, near Whitehorse, Canada and Skagway, Alaska!

(http://www.ferdinand-engelbeen.be/familie/alaska/ala017.jpg)

(http://www.birdmom.net/Alaska/Desert01web.jpg)

I don't know if you have ever been to the Grand Canyon? The canyon itself is a desert. The north rim is also quite lush and forested!

Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Damar on August 23, 2011, 07:02:08 PM
Supposed geographical abnormalities never bothered me much.  If I can accept magic and sea monsters in my game, I can accept a desert existing next to a fertile valley and mountains.

As for other possible changes to KQ5, I would agree that Graham should have reasons for going to different places.  If Graham wants his family back it doesn't quite make sense that he'd go mucking about in a forbidden forest.  So I would have it be unclear where Mordack is, outside of "beyond the mountains."  That way Graham has to find clues that give him a more general idea of where to look once he's past the mountains.  Finding out that a witch lives in the forest might spur Graham to seek her out with the idea that magic users might have more information about each other.  It would give him a reason to enter a dangerous forest as well as show his desperation to find his family.  And in the witch's house Graham can find a reference to the beach beyond the mountains and mariners who are aware of the islands beyond (which includes Mordack's).

I'm not sure if Graham needs a reason to enter the desert as I wouldn't want to completely do away with the idea of exploring, but perhaps if there were references of oases in the desert as well as other things of interest that would make it seem more natural for Graham to decide entering a desert is a good idea.

Honestly, I don't know how much I'd enjoy a wise and helpful Cedric.  It is Graham's quest after all.  Personally, I think that part of the reason people don't like Cedric (other than him being annoying) is because we're used to going through these quests and now suddenly we have company.  It's kind of jarring.  I think that having Cedric actually serve a purpose and act as a wise guide might increase that dissonance and actually end up being more annoying than the "POOOOIsonous snake" and "Oooh watch out, you're already dead" Cedric we all love to hate.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 23, 2011, 08:27:32 PM
Quote
I can accept a desert existing next to a fertile valley and mountains.

...and such phenomena exists in the real world, its not 'magic' its Science!

On a related note that type of thing occured all the way back in Wizard and the Princess, and also occured in KQ3. KQ5 was not the original source of that type of geography!

Quote
outside of "beyond the mountains."  

Cedric actually already does say that Mordack is 'beyond the mountains' if you talk to him on certain screens near the moutnains, or look at certain background details. He also says that you will need to search around Serenia and surrounding lands to find things to help you be ready to cross the mountains!

So while its more 'clear' in a way, the game still has ways of telling you that you'll need to gather supplies.

The current game tries to convince you to enter the forest via two methods, the Willow telling her story, and trying to convince him to help her. Mushka also gives you the medallion that is supposed to 'protect from enchantments' from magic users (though strangely has no effect against Mordack, :p).

Quote
Cedric we all love to hate.
Speak for yourself :p...  :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer:
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Bludshot on August 24, 2011, 07:21:50 PM
Curses! Defeated by science!

Well maybe I should rephrase my gripe.  Compared to the other installments the setting of KQV felt like a means to an end.  Compared to places like Daventry and the Green Isles, the landscapes in KQV don't stick with you for very long or with any particular strength.  You're not helping the people there nor are they particularly interest in helping you beyond giving them item x for item y scenarios.

MOE had the same problem, a bunch of locales that, while adding some variety to the game, weren't particularly memorable.

I guess as an example think of Gabriel Knight, where you spend most of the game in the same couple of hotspots around New Orleans, but in spite of that you only want to see more of it. :P
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 24, 2011, 08:51:35 PM
Quote
You're not helping the people there nor are they particularly interest in helping you beyond giving them item x for item y scenarios.

Um, yes you did help people you help alot of people, almost everyone you encounter you help out in some way!

You help the old folks whose business wasn't doing well, by giving them a well crafted pair of shoes (righout out of the elves and the cobbler story).

You help the tailer by finding the golden pin that he believes was stolen from him (and lost in the haystack).

You help the willow and the prince, by defeating the witch, and ending their curse.

You help Rumplestiltskin by returning the Spinning Wheel that can turn straw into gold.

The elves claim you 'helped' them out by giving them the gift of emeralds.

You help save the Rat from a cat.

You help save the ants from a dog!

You help save the bees from a bear!

You help a starving eagle!

You help Icebella by defeating the Yeti!

You help save Cedric.

You befriend and save Cassima and your family!

Almost all the puzzles in the game are about doing good deeds!

Hell even the toymaker says that you are helping him by giving him the marionette! That its worth more than sled he gives in you return, and that he's getting the better deal.

Frankly I could describe that quest setup, being a large part of KQ4, KQ2, and even KQ1! Finding some item, and giving it to some other person, to help their needs!

KQ3 was quite a bit different in that Alexander does alot of stealing for his own needs, and most of those things he steals are used to make spells. He rarely did anything to help anyone! Except for his sister and family in the end! Stealing items all were means to the end of escaping back to Daventry and saving his family!
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 24, 2011, 09:11:02 PM
Well maybe I should rephrase my gripe.  Compared to the other installments the setting of KQV felt like a means to an end.  Compared to places like Daventry and the Green Isles, the landscapes in KQV don't stick with you for very long or with any particular strength.  You're not helping the people there nor are they particularly interest in helping you beyond giving them item x for item y scenarios.

You HAVE played KQ5, right? For yourself? Straight through? No let's play videos? :P
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: DawsonJ on August 24, 2011, 11:35:17 PM
I actually liked KQV - echoed voices and all - but, the original release came out at a time when EVERY FREAKING GAME had Stack Errors, EMS or XMS underruns and SoundBlaster driver incompatiblilities. And trying to play games through Windows for Workgroups 3.11 (my personal favorite)  when RAM was $40 per Meg was not realistic. Even custom boot floppies couldn't clear up enough RAM to play some games.

But, to my point, I did enjoy the game. It rarely made sense to me, but I liked it, and my original KQV CD made it to my friends, when I bought one of the collections, and they enjoyed it. Not a perfect game, but I found it easier to enjoy the story than the first four games. Maybe just because the graphics were clearer and the voices were there. I just need to buy it from GOG and play it again.

Here's a reminder, for those who haven't played the game in a while:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFdmad5QfQg
Oh, the joys of programming for limited processing power and memory!
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Bludshot on August 25, 2011, 11:29:40 AM
And most of those consist of a basic item swap.  I wasn't really thinking of Cassima because she really isn't part of the community (I should've made my specification more clear, sorry).

The willow lady and the prince walk off into oblivion, not even acknowledging you

The toymaker, the offensive stereotype of a tailor, and the gnomes were hardly in need of help.  You just happened to find their stuff as part of a different quest.  And all of them are annoyed when you want some kind of reward.

Those elves are jerks.

I really don't consider the rat or the eagle to be part of the setting.

Yes you do help the cobbler, but they also just leave never to return. 

KQ2 had the same problem.  But with KQ1 and KQ4 you were actually there to help the land you're adventuring in.  It completely changes you attitude towards your setting.  This is what was great about the Quest for Glory series as well.  You felt like you were accomplishing something beyond "well everything is back to normal."

(Posted on: August 25, 2011, 01:28:46 PM)


Well maybe I should rephrase my gripe.  Compared to the other installments the setting of KQV felt like a means to an end.  Compared to places like Daventry and the Green Isles, the landscapes in KQV don't stick with you for very long or with any particular strength.  You're not helping the people there nor are they particularly interest in helping you beyond giving them item x for item y scenarios.

You HAVE played KQ5, right? For yourself? Straight through? No let's play videos? :P

Haha.  Okay maybe you do hang around the scenery for a long, long time.  But not for the right reasons. :P
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 25, 2011, 01:56:55 PM
Quote
And most of those consist of a basic item swap.
 

Um most of the characters you help in KQ1, KQ2, and KQ4, are simple item swaps!

The woodcutter and his wife are a simple item swap.

Grandma is a simple item swap.

Little Red is a simple item swap.

Old Lady is a simple item swap.

The mermaid and Neptune involve simple item swaps.

Most of these characters say little to you in thanks!

Quote
The toymaker, the offensive stereotype of a tailor, and the gnomes were hardly in need of help.  You just happened to find their stuff as part of a different quest.  And all of them are annoyed when you want some kind of reward.

Umm, they don't get annoyed at all. You obviously aren't playing the same game I have. The toymaker is incrdibly thankful, and feels he's getting the better deal.

The tailor offers the robe in return, with no regrets. He thanks you almost unceasingly.

The old folks tell you, they are going away, and that you can take whatever you want, if it will help you out...

That is far from being 'annoyed".

Quote
Those elves are jerks.

No they aren't, the elf, thanks you when you are down the cave, for showing 'kindness". Yes, he did try to avoid you at first. But would you trust people in those woods? Considering the evil witch and other creatures living there?

Infact, I'm pretty sure he says he didn't trust you at first, and even apologizes for his mistrust.



Quote
I really don't consider the rat or the eagle to be part of the setting.

The rat is definitely part of the setting... It lives in a rat hole in the Inn!

Eagles living in the mountains is normal! I see eagles in the mountains all the time!

While both save your life, the Eagle's rescue is probably the most dramatic, cinematic, and it even has its own music theme.

Quote
But with KQ1 and KQ4 you were actually there to help the land you're adventuring in.  It completely changes you attitude towards your setting.


Almost every character in KQ1, KQ2, and KQ4, hardly acknowledges your help. Most of the characters you help are simple item swaps.

Infact, take for example, the Frog Prince, he's quite rude after you help him! Infact most of the characters in KQ4 have no direct involvement with Lolotte, don't really acknowledge her existence. He walks off into oblivious!

The only example is the dwarfs, that grunt a bit, and wish you luck in your quest.

Fisherman and his wife, barely say anything. You get a simple item swap.

Pan doesn't say a thing, and there is a simple item swap.

The minstrel doesn't give much thanks, pretty much praises his own abilities, and walks off. Yet again another item swap.

Most characters you help, hardly say a thing or acknowledge that you helped them out. Most are simple item swaps.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 25, 2011, 03:08:49 PM
Again I have to ask, you HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED KQ5 for yourself, right?
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 25, 2011, 03:45:48 PM
Perhaps, he hasn't played it in a very long time, and has forgotten almost everything about it?
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 25, 2011, 11:11:17 PM
Perhaps, he hasn't played it in a very long time, and has forgotten almost everything about it?

That would be the case for me, but then again, I'm not trying to recall my own memories of the game. It's been too long. I did feel that the help-quests were tedious though. A lot of fetching and trading. Also, the helping of the animals slip my mind at times, cause I figure that ants aren't important enough to consider.  :P

The only one that really rang true as a heroic quest was the Weeping Willow, in my opinion. It was in typical King's Quest fashion for Graham to help out the lovebirds and slay the witch. I do think that my opinion for King's Quest 5 has improved a bit since the creation of this thread, but I still believe that it pales in comparison to the other titles.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 26, 2011, 08:17:51 AM
Quote
I did feel that the help-quests were tedious though. A lot of fetching and trading
I personally wouldn't call them tedious, since the areas are so closely packed together. There is only what twelve closely-connected screens of Serenia proper (Forest of Serenia)? The screens load fast enough. Thank goodness you don't have to worry about Cedric flying across the entire screen to find a landing spot, or follow after you whenever switching screen, since each time you load the screen he lands about a second after you enter the screen, or follows for a second after you leave the screen, (they don't force you to see Cedric's entire flight sequence).

(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101228170354/kingsquest/images/3/3a/TownforestSereniaKQ5HB.jpg)

As far as map size, its much smaller than even Llewdor which had maybe 20 screens, including the mountain itself (that game had a lot of tedious 'fetching'). Serenia is definitely smaller than KQ4 (which had a lot of fetching and trading).

KQ1's Daventry is probably the largest single land area in the series. That game has alot of fetching and trading.

Kolyma in KQ2 is slightly smaller than Daventry in KQ1, and has alot of fetching and trading.

Seriously adventure games are made up of 'fetching and trading'... If you complain about that, you complain about the genre in general.
Quote
Also, the helping of the animals slip my mind at times, cause I figure that ants aren't important enough to consider.
Well, they aren't just any animals, they are all talking animals! Two of them, King Antony, and Beetrice even wear clothes!

The eagle is also quite proactive, huge part of the game, as he is the one who saves you from the Roc. In a kinda dramatic Gandalf/heroes saved by giant eagles sort of way!

The rat is less dramatic, but he is important as he saves your life as well, from the thieves.
Quote
The only one that really rang true as a heroic quest was the Weeping Willow, in my opinion. It was in typical King's Quest fashion for Graham to help out the lovebirds and slay the witch.

Ok, just saying but most of Graham's helping others in KQ1 and KQ2, I would say are "hardly heroic". He does them because he does nice deeds. For example he helps the poor (KQ1) or sick (KQ1SCI) Woodcutter in KQ1, and just gets a fiddle in return. It's not that heroic, but it is nice.

In KQ2, Graham finds a basket and returns it to Riding Hood, and he offers chicken soup to his grandma. Not very heroic, but kindly! Hell, he doesn't even take the story to its conclusion, by slaying the Big Bad Wolf, to save both Grandma and Riding Hood!

He helps the old lady by returning her Nightingale. She's also somewhat rude about it as well, kicking Graham out shortly after giving him the lamp. Giving flowers to the mermaid? Hardly heroic. Returning the trident to Neptune? Not really all that heroic, considering that the trident was lost on a sandy beach.

Likewise in KQ5, most of Graham's deeds are kind deeds. He gives emeralds to elves, and they thank him.

He gives the shoes to the poor old couple, that are struggling to make ends meet. The shoes are so fine, they are able to retire, and exactly thankful that they pretty much give Graham their entire shop! This is based right out of Elves and the Shoemaker fairy tale.

The Tailer is thankful for the return of the golden needle that was lost when he was ruffed up a bit by the hooligans running the country inn, to give you the fine cloak that Graham was admiring earlier (well optionally admiring earlier).

The toyshop owner feels that nothing in his shop compares to the quality of the marionette, and feels he's cheating you somehow by only offering the sled in return. He's very apologetic, and Graham is very nice about it.

Hell, I'd go as far to say, largely most of the things Alexander does in Llewdor KQ3, are hardly heroic. Considering most of it involves thievery from locals, or stealing from thieves so he can buy things at the shop.

Even Rosella in KQ4, largely all her helpful things, are not 'very heroic'. She cleans the Dwarfs house, they give her a meal and some diamonds. She gives the diamonds to fisherman and his wife, allowing them to survive. She kisses the Frog Prince, and he's ungrateful for being cured of his curse, etc!

Only 'heroic deeds', I'd say is the hunt for the fruit, and saving Hen, from the ogres. I don't really count the three quests by Lolotte as "heroic deeds" (other than she does inadvertently rescue Hen). One involves cruelty to the Unicorn, and the other almost unleashes evil Demons on the world.

I'd say most puzzles in KQ lack 'heroism', and in fact in the earliest games you get more points for doing the least heroic, non-violent solutions in most cases!
Quote
hat would be the case for me, but then again, I'm not trying to recall my own memories of the game.

I have to ask why don't you go back and play the game, and then make an updated 'opinion' of the game. Rather than one based on faded memories?
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 26, 2011, 11:23:25 AM
Methinks you're basing your opinion on twisted memories and you need to play it again. Seriously, for all your points you're being extremely unfair to the game on things that other Sierra games have as well yet you don't nitpick them.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Bludshot on August 26, 2011, 01:03:38 PM
I have played it fairly recently. (Last year I think)

The reason I don't nitpick about the older games is because at that time everything was still fresh.  By the time King's Quest V rolled around, Sierra had already proven they could do better.  Instead they focused purely on the new engine, understandable to a point, but not to the extent it was followed.

It was the same problem that led to the lost potential of games like MOE and Gabriel Knight 3.

Ask yourself this, if King's Quest V didn't have the KQ brand, let's say they just had a different king and a different setting.  Would any of us even remember it? The only reason I know about it is because of brand recognition and the only reason I continue to play through it is because of its unintentional hilarity. 

It's easily KQ's weakest showing, that doesn't mean I detest it.  Its an early example of the ever present issue of too much time spent on new hardware and not enough time spent on the game itself.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 26, 2011, 01:39:33 PM
No offense, but you have poor memory...  :suffer:  :rofl: Since you have completely misremembered many of the game's details!

Sure I'd remember, it, considering it was the game I was first introduced to KQ with (ok I think I might have played KQ1 or 2 briefly previously at a friend's house, but not long enough to make any judgements)! It seriously sold alot of multimedia PCs, and was the game that really made people go out and buy CD-Roms, a rather expensive extra. Most PCs at that time didn't come with a CD-Rom. I had bought the floppy version on my first PC. I didn't buy it because of 'brand recognition' but because a friend had shown some of the gameplay to me briefly, and the box looked epic!

Also it has some of the most beautiful locations in the entire series! Very dramatic artwork. It has a fun story that seems loosely inspired by some of the old Sinbad stories, Rapunzel, Rumplestiltskin, the Elves and the Shoemaker, the Snow Queen and other fairy tales. It's got everything King's Quest was meant to be.

King Graham is an awesome character. It was a magical adventure. I liked having a companion following me around! It has fun death scenes (many only discoverable if you make the mistakes that lead to dead ends)! The music was incredible, the setting colorful and imaginative! The world feels bigger than it is! The characters had personality, even had their own closeup images!

When I got the CD-rom version, I was even more impressed, as full-speech was new, and 'never been done before' (well there might have been a few other games at the time, but it was new to me). It drew me in even further.

Quote
say they just had a different king and a different setting.
Come again, if you changed the protaganist and the setting, how would it be the same game at all?

I mean if I asked, if you changed KQ6's protaganist and setting, would it even be the same game? How would it even resemble the original game?
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 26, 2011, 04:49:15 PM
Seriously adventure games are made up of 'fetching and trading'... If you complain about that, you complain about the genre in general.

And I do. I prefer puzzles. Fetching and trading in general is tiresome.

The eagle is also quite proactive, huge part of the game, as he is the one who saves you from the Roc. In a kinda dramatic Gandalf/heroes saved by giant eagles sort of way!

Yup, definitely an epic moment.

Ok, just saying but most of Graham's helping others in KQ1 and KQ2, I would say are "hardly heroic". He does them because he does nice deeds. For example he helps the poor (KQ1) or sick (KQ1SCI) Woodcutter in KQ1, and just gets a fiddle in return. It's not that heroic, but it is nice.

I do recall Graham pushing a witch into a cauldron, slaying a dragon, evading a giant, etc. KQ1 was filled with moments where Graham was being courageous. True, they weren't help quests, but all I'm saying is the Weeping Willow quest required Graham to do something that I felt was on par with his first adventure.

I have to ask why don't you go back and play the game, and then make an updated 'opinion' of the game. Rather than one based on faded memories?

I don't have the game anymore.

Methinks you're basing your opinion on twisted memories and you need to play it again. Seriously, for all your points you're being extremely unfair to the game on things that other Sierra games have as well yet you don't nitpick them.

Whether that is the case or not, this thread is focused on KQ5. When we make a sequel to this thread, I will nitpick on the respective game, deal?
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 26, 2011, 05:38:53 PM
Quote
I do recall Graham pushing a witch into a cauldron, slaying a dragon, evading a giant, etc. KQ1 was filled with moments where Graham was being courageous. True, they weren't help quests, but all I'm saying is the Weeping Willow quest required Graham to do something that I felt was on par with his first adventure.

Yes, you can kill the witch, and its not a help quest. I'd also argue pushing her into a cauldron/oven when her back turned isn't very 'courageous'. Backstabbing anyone, ;)? Now, if he faced her mano-a-mano, that would be courageous. Killing old ladies when, their back is turned, and defenses are down, shame!

if you slayed the dragon you did something wrong, and lose points. You have to take a least courageous and somewhat amusing approach of extinguishing the dragon with an unassuming bucket of water.

Letting a giant, fall to sleep, while hiding/staying invisible, is actually pretty cowardly. If you take the more heroic, David and Goliath approach the game penalizes you and you lose points!

Feeding cheese to a giant rat, not very courageous.

Playing fiddle music to leprechauns, while being protected by a magical four leaf clover, not very courageous!

Letting a goat kill a troll for you, so that you can pass... Not very courageous!

Then you use the example in KQ5, Graham uses a genie to kill a witch for him... Not very courageous! What a wimp!

Hmm, come to think of it he also spends seventeen years sending girls to be killed by a three-headed dragon, including his own daughter... Rather than going out and finding a way to defeat it! While hiding in his castle out of fear! Not very courageous!

In KQ1 and KQ2 he won't even fight the various 'random encounters' because he is too weak, or not skilled enough (according to the narration)!

Come to think of it, Graham might actually be the most cowardly hero ever! He only somewhat redeems himself by dueling Mordack directly! Ok, I guess throwing a pie at a raging yeti is either very brave, or very stupid.


There is this moment in the novel, Kingdom of Sorrow, where he also knocks out a bunch of imps, with a frying pan. Alas, however, he tricks the imps into coming after him, while they think he is an 'ally'. So he doesn't really fight them directly... Again, not particularly courageous moment, and is another example where he beguiles some opponent, tricking them, into their own defeat...!

I don't think we ever got one example of Graham showcasing his Knightly skills... He acts more like a common thief or rogue! His father's kleptomaniac creed, would also point in that direction as well!

Quote
"Boy if I have learned anything in my life, I have learned this: When in doubt, or in trouble, pick up anything that is not nailed down, and if it is, look for loose nails or boards. Check carefully into, under, above, below, and behind things. Read everything; you might learn something. Wear clean undergarments, brush after meals, and always remember: nothing is as it appears."
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 26, 2011, 05:55:05 PM
Fair enough. You win this round Baggins, but I'll get you back. What do you think of Alexander? Courageous or coy?

In all honesty, I found Graham's puzzles to have a goofy, cooky presence about them. It's possibly the reason why I think a lot of his puzzles are illogical. He does usually pick a humorous route in a lot of the occurrences. The water bucket on the dragon being a valid point. Facing a dragon and freezing in place would be cowardly in my opinion. Being able to at least take on a dragon in a "less" courageous way is still courageous in my book.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 26, 2011, 05:58:15 PM
Alexander is equal parts thief, equal parts courageous. He works under the nose of his wicked master, knowing he will be killed if he does't try. He does show some sword skill! He is willing to travel to hell to save his love's parents. That takes some gonads!

He's also not above using trickery to defeat opponents though! Going invisible, so he can sneak up on the dragon. Or sneaking around the Castle of the Crown. Tricking the gnomes. Tricking the Minotaur into defeating itself!

The son, is a bit like his father, probably tempered with his time under Manannan.

He wouldn't directly try to kill Manannan, because he isn't 'cruel' like his master (according to the narration if you try to 'kill manannan').

Quote
In all honesty, I found Graham's puzzles to have a goofy, cooky presence about them. It's possibly the reason why I think a lot of his puzzles are illogical. He does usually pick a humorous route in a lot of the occurrences. The water bucket on the dragon being a valid point. Facing a dragon and freezing in place would be cowardly in my opinion. Being able to at least take on a dragon in a "less" courageous way is still courageous in my book.

It's kinda like the pie to the yeti... Either extremely brave move, or extremely stupid behaviour! Like someone who has a death wish!
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 26, 2011, 06:06:25 PM
Alexander is equal parts thief, equal parts courageous. He works under the nose of his wicked master, knowing he will be killed if he does't try. He dose show some sword skill! He is willing to travel to hell to save his love's parents. That takes some gonads!

Couldn't agree more. Alexander > Graham, in my opinion. Better character overall.

Quote
In all honesty, I found Graham's puzzles to have a goofy, cooky presence about them. It's possibly the reason why I think a lot of his puzzles are illogical. He does usually pick a humorous route in a lot of the occurrences. The water bucket on the dragon being a valid point. Facing a dragon and freezing in place would be cowardly in my opinion. Being able to at least take on a dragon in a "less" courageous way is still courageous in my book.

It's kinda like the pie to the yeti... Either extremely brave move, or extremely stupid behaviour! Like someone who has a death wish!

Yeah. It's a stupid move, but to at least have the courage (or stupidity) to do so, and then succeed is admirable. I wouldn't think to throw a pie at a yeti. I would probably crawl into a corner, curl up in the fetal position, and then begin to eat the pie while crying myself to sleep.  :-\
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 26, 2011, 06:10:42 PM
Well ya, I think Alexander is the more interesting character.

But I like Graham a little bit more. It might be his somewhat goofy way of solving problems!

My favorite Graham adventure is probably KQ2:Romancing the Throne strangely enough!
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Damar on August 26, 2011, 07:49:04 PM
That's not strange at all to me.  KQ2 is in my top three favorite King's Quest games.  It's the first game I played as a child and holds a lot of nostalgia for me.  Plus it's just a great game.  It took all the KQ1 was and refined it into what is probably the pinnacle of the old school exploring adventure game.  The kind of game where there was a plot and a reason to be doing things, but the game was largely about exploring and writing wrongs.  After KQ2 the games became much more plot driven within the game itself (Manannan looking over your shoulder, running errands to get into Lolotte's good graces, and so on.)

Regarding KQ5, I think you hit on something about nitpicking the earlier games.  For the most part, all these puzzles are on a par with earlier puzzles (electric cheese and dropping emeralds for glowing eyes not withstanding).  I think the reason that KQ5 gets more hate than, say, throwing  a bridle on a snake is because of the technology shift.  In the earlier games the graphics were rougher, forcing you to use your imagination.  And those games were a step up from text only games, which really forced you to use your imagination.  But the better the graphics get, the more entrenched in reality the game becomes.  KQ5 is the first game with the realistic (for the time, and really still looking pretty good today) graphics.  And while it's an inevitable improvement, it also puts the player firmly into reality.  And that means that illogical puzzles, which may have been better accepted before, are now greeted with a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance.  And, yes, there was a graphics upgrade with KQ4, however that also had a new character, so the game had a new tone.  I think with KQ5, they used KQ1 and 2 as a template because those were the other Graham games.  The older sensibilities clashed with this new game and new graphics that root you in a bit more reality than Graham and his "goofy" problem-solving, last seen in action in the early 1980's, was ready to commit to.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Bludshot on August 27, 2011, 05:12:04 PM
It sounds like we are talking about nostalgia more than the game itself.  Which is fine, KQ5 will always hold a special place in my heart and childhood. 

But most of us were children at the time and that tends to alter our perceptions.  Hell in middle school I thought the Matrix: Reloaded video game was really good. >__>
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 27, 2011, 05:24:00 PM
I know I'm not talking about Nostalgia, since I play KQ5 every three months or so!

I've played each game several times a year. Go through the data with Sci Viewer several times a year! Look at the documentation several times a year, etc.

I probably play KQ2 the most! I don't play KQ8 as much mainly because it takes several days to complete (but Its still one of my top three favorite KQ games).

There is a reason why the King's Quest Omnpiedia is so expansive! ;)
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 27, 2011, 07:13:48 PM
Hell in middle school I thought the Matrix: Reloaded video game was really good. >__>

NEEEEOOOOO!!!!! :o
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 27, 2011, 10:37:01 PM
The Matrix Reloaded didn't actually have a game. We did have Enter The Matrix, though.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 28, 2011, 01:13:26 AM
The Matrix Reloaded didn't actually have a game. We did have Enter The Matrix, though.

That's the game that came to mind when he said Reloaded. I forgot the name. Didn't Enter The Matrix take place in between two of the movies? I remember that it was supposed to be an original entry but had a crappy story, and virtually added nothing to a series that pretty much became stagnant. I liked The Matrix till after Reloaded, then I decided to start living my life and stopped swallowing red pills.  :X
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 28, 2011, 06:52:39 AM
The Wachowski brothers wrote and directed Enter The Matrix themselves. It was from the point of view of Ghost and...and...that girl. It was supposed to take place just before and during the events of Reloaded and ends somewhere towards the end. It was supposed to be a story that explained what how and why certain things happened in the movie. It even has live action scenes shot especially for the game that aren't in any of the movies. They meet the trainman for instance, I believe. Maybe...memory is funny right now. We don't see him in the movies until Revolutions.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 28, 2011, 08:42:08 AM
There is something wrong if KQ5 or any early KQ is being compared to Enter the Matrix or even Matrix Online.

The difference is Matrix games was nearly panned by all critics (the fate of most movie tie-in games).

Most of the KQ games on the other hand were praised industry wide, as she pushed the computer technology, and created fun whimsical original stories based on classic fairy tales, that couldn't be done previously. They were good and the industry knew it.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Blackthorne on August 28, 2011, 01:21:59 PM
I like KQ5.  But I think someone SHOULD make a v 2.0 with the changed we discussed here.  That would be cool - though it'll never happen.  It would be nice to see KQ5 in a newer, faster engine with some puzzles redone. 

I still think it's my favorite King's Quest game, but it does have it's flaws.


Bt
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 28, 2011, 01:30:47 PM
If the changes discussed in this thread were made, some of the best scenes would be cut, just for the sake of it! Remember one person suggested removing the eagle and the roc sequence. Which IMO, is one of the best parts in the game, its like Gandalf being saved by Gwaihir the Windlord!
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Blackthorne on August 28, 2011, 02:43:37 PM
Yeah, that's why I said some changes.  I'd also like to see -

- redone dialogue portraits.
- Get rid of the red "x" when you click on something it doesn't have a description for.  Go with the generic room description.
- a more helpful Cedric, and honestly, a new voice for him.  I don't think the high hooty-hoo voice really does anything for him.  I'd pick a more refined, yet older voice - with a little uncertainty to it.  Just enough to make it the right combo of wise and whimsical.

I wouldn't cut out anything, honestly - like the Eagle.


Bt
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 28, 2011, 03:19:02 PM
Quote
Get rid of the red "x" when you click on something it doesn't have a description for.  Go with the generic room description.

The game already has generic room descriptions in every room! Roberta should have done a better job making them more global around the screen (Space Quest IV has a similar issue with the 'red Xs' as well).

Unfortunately there was a similar problem in the eariler games as well.

If you looked in the 'wrong places" in the earlier games, you'd get "I don't know what your are talking about" messages, the X's so to speak.

"look" often wasn't enough to get a room description, and 'look room' didn't always give a screen message!

The KQ1 remake might be the first game to have fully effective global room messages, and extra screen descriptions.

I was noticing the other day that there are a whole lot more 'X's in KQ7, and in that game you get no narration :p...
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Blackthorne on August 28, 2011, 03:21:16 PM
Yeah, well KQ7 sucks pretty hard, so that's no surprise.


Bt
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 28, 2011, 03:35:47 PM
Heh heh!
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 28, 2011, 03:55:40 PM
Yeah, that's why I said some changes.  I'd also like to see -

- redone dialogue portraits.
- Get rid of the red "x" when you click on something it doesn't have a description for.  Go with the generic room description.
- a more helpful Cedric, and honestly, a new voice for him.  I don't think the high hooty-hoo voice really does anything for him.  I'd pick a more refined, yet older voice - with a little uncertainty to it.  Just enough to make it the right combo of wise and whimsical.

I wouldn't cut out anything, honestly - like the Eagle.


Bt

I would want to see Cedric's appearance change too. I don't like how he looks like a know-it-all. The monocle makes me want to punch him. I'd rather he look like Kaepora Gaebora.  :yes:
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Blackthorne on August 28, 2011, 04:31:40 PM
I liked Cedric's look.  It was cheeky and whimsical, which is really KQ to me.


Bt
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 28, 2011, 04:46:29 PM
Most know it all owls' wear no clothing, see owl in Winnie the Pooh, Archimedes in Sword in the Stone. The Tootsie Pop owl only wears a graduation hat (that actually seems to be the most common theme)!

Very few wear vests, here is a good one;
(http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/33500/Wise-Owl-33640.jpg)

Another;
(http://www.wellpromo.com/upload/upimg30/7--Nature-Pal-Bean-Bag-Owl-W---248430.jpg)

and another;
(http://www.oldwiseowl.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/old-wise-owl.jpg)

Here is another, but it kinda looks like a bat!

(http://ny-image0.etsy.com/il_570xN.246181696.jpg)

This one is kinda creepy?
(http://www.sk3tchbook.com/Libraries/Sarmo_Complete_Works/Owl_at_Home_in_a_Sweater_Vest.sflb.ashx)
How about this one?
(http://ny-image2.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.210131082.jpg)
Here is one that wears specs;

(http://naturalmath.wikispaces.com/file/view/The_Wise_Owl.jpg/190872666/The_Wise_Owl.jpg)

This one appears to have two sets of eyes and two faces! Depending on how he has his head turned.
(http://www.videogamesblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/zelda-owl-kaepora-gaebora-ocarina-of-time-artwork.jpg)

Wait a second this one appears to have stolen Graham's hat!
(http://clipartist.net/www/COLOURINGBOOK.ORG/Letters/W/wise_owl_on_books_black_white_line_art_coloring_book_colouring-1969px.png)
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Fierce Deity on August 28, 2011, 05:09:18 PM
This one appears to have two sets of eyes and two faces! Depending on how he has his head turned.
(http://www.videogamesblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/zelda-owl-kaepora-gaebora-ocarina-of-time-artwork.jpg)

I like Kaepora Gaebora. He differs from the vest-wearing owls that wear glasses. The owl is used as a wise creature in a lot of fiction, but I don't think that means he's supposed to dress like he's a professor at Stanford. He can just be wise, and look like an owl.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on August 28, 2011, 05:12:48 PM
This one appears to have two sets of eyes and two faces! Depending on how he has his head turned.
(http://www.videogamesblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/zelda-owl-kaepora-gaebora-ocarina-of-time-artwork.jpg)

I like Kaepora Gaebora. He differs from the vest-wearing owls that wear glasses. The owl is used as a wise creature in a lot of fiction, but I don't think that means he's supposed to dress like he's a professor at Stanford. He can just be wise, and look like an owl.

Yeah but there's something cheeky about an owl wearing a vest and monocle.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 28, 2011, 05:14:43 PM
Owl with a vest is probably the most original even...even if the idea isn't entirely original. It's definitely the rarest variation.

Kaepora actually sticts to probably the most common wise owl motif, the one found on ancient Greek artifacts representing athena. The earliest wise owls war nothing, and most images of wise owls wear nothing.

The most modern interpretation of wise owls add the graduation cap.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 29, 2011, 10:12:05 AM
Quote
Get rid of the red "x" when you click on something it doesn't have a description for.  Go with the generic room description.

The game already has generic room descriptions in every room! Roberta should have done a better job making them more global around the screen (Space Quest IV has a similar issue with the 'red Xs' as well).

Unfortunately there was a similar problem in the eariler games as well.

If you looked in the 'wrong places" in the earlier games, you'd get "I don't know what your are talking about" messages, the X's so to speak.

"look" often wasn't enough to get a room description, and 'look room' didn't always give a screen message!

The KQ1 remake might be the first game to have fully effective global room messages, and extra screen descriptions.

I was noticing the other day that there are a whole lot more 'X's in KQ7, and in that game you get no narration :p...

Don't forget that starting after SQ3, I believe, all SCI0 games had the option of right-clicking on objects on the screen to look at them.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 29, 2011, 10:37:50 AM
Right clicking only works in KQ1 SCI, actually. It doesn't work in KQ4.

But it would be interesting to see which game first included 'right cliking' to look. How effective that 'look' is. Are there blank areas with no descriptions (I wouldn't be surprised)?

KQ1 SCI probably took the complaints from KQ5 into account, as there are very few blank spots if any when right clicking. On the other hand Josh Mandel was noticing what was happening during the KQ5 development, and thought he could do better?

Right clicking may have first appeared in the SCI01 games. It wasn't in the SCI0 games as far as I know.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 29, 2011, 06:45:24 PM
I know, because KQ4 was the first SCI game. I said starting AFTER SQ3. Many SCI0 games (not SCI01) support the right-click look function.

The games I've tested that have it:


The only two SCI01 games on that list are KQ1SCI and QFG2. Actually, they're the only two SCI01 games Sierra ever made, besides the German version of SQ3. Larry 3 might have it as well I don't have it to test it. I doubt LSL2 has it because that was one of the early ones.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Baggins on August 29, 2011, 07:34:00 PM
QFG2, I think was SCI1 actually?

http://wiki.scummvm.org/index.php/Sierra_Game_Versions

Apparently some of the other games had SQ3 had SCI01 versions.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: MusicallyInspired on August 29, 2011, 09:39:46 PM
Yes, technically it was SCI1, but it still wholly acted like a SCI01 game. It didn't have any of the features the later games of SCI1 had. And yes, other games were SCI01 but they were all foreign versions.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: DawsonJ on September 07, 2011, 10:18:34 AM
I just found an eBay listing for an Original manual for KQ5. Nice.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Classic-Manual-Kings-Quest-5-V-/160647494979

We should really share our applicable eBay findings here. Unless, of course, we're bidding on it ourselves. ;)
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on November 11, 2011, 02:34:03 PM
Bumpin' for the best game in the series.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: KatieHal on November 11, 2011, 02:49:52 PM
7. Check to make sure the topic of your thread doesn’t already exist. Feel free to use the search feature on the forum, which will make finding already created threads that much easier. We tend to merge threads that are the same topic. Additionally, don't post simply to 'bump' an older thread--if you're going to post in an old thread, make sure you have something new to add.


FYI. No bumping, Perceval.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Arkillian on November 11, 2011, 03:15:27 PM
Wow- that red is really not cool to read against the grey behind it. I felt like my eyes were having a seizure >.<

I agree though. Necrobumping threads sucks. There's a reason the convo stopped cause things to say ran out. This one isn't too old though but bumping for the sake of it still sucks
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: Sir Perceval of Daventry on November 11, 2011, 03:29:11 PM
Well, personally I wonder to this day what the story behind the little town shown in the Roc cutscene is all about. I've always wanted to visit there. It's thrown in the game as part of the scenery but still is compelling. As are all those tiny little islands (besides the Harpie Island) we see when in the boat.

Also, Mordack's Castle is the creepiest place in all of the games, IMO.
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: crayauchtin on November 11, 2011, 06:10:25 PM
King's Quest 5 -- overall, is fantastic. The puzzles, I thought, are great as they are all interconnected, which is marvellous. There's no loose ends.

However, it isn't the best game in the series by a longshot.
There's some writing/story issues -- aside from the lack of urgency Katie mentioned much earlier (which I agree with) the absolute weakest point in the game is Cedric. It's not a terrible idea to give Graham a sidekick -- even one who is mostly there for advice. It IS a bad idea to give him one who is cowardly he's virtually useless. Cedric does exactly ONE useful thing after the introduction -- accidentally fly through a window to announce Crispin's imminent arrival and get hit by Mordack's spell. There is *zero* reason he couldn't swoop through the window without having followed you around the whole time.

Much of the voice acting is also subpar when compared to King's Quest 6, but we all know that's totally excusable because the technology was SO new. (Much more excusable than the voice acting in KQ7 anyways....)
Title: Re: Opinions on King's Quest V?
Post by: maatathena on November 13, 2011, 01:14:59 AM
I replayed KQ5 a few months ago and still found it quite enjoyable.  Of course, thats because I know all the answers now, the first time I played it I thought I was going to go nuts!

I hate the maze.  Every time I play it, when I get there I dread it.  North should always be up :)  I don't do well with changing directions, and it made it almost impossible for me to draw a map of the maze. 

All of the games have at least 1 stinker puzzle, but the cheese to power the machine is definitely top 5 silliest things. 

By the same token, all the games (except maybe 7?) have scenarios where you can miss something and then ruin the game and have to restart, but I kinda feel KQ5 is the worst offender of this.  I mean, you can just wander into the forest and get really stuck.  Alexander at least gets warned about the catacombs if he doesn't have the right items at the time!  And if you let the rat die, whoops!  It comes out of NOWHERE and if you haven't saved in a while, cause why would you, you are screwed.  Don't grab the locket quick enough in the nest?  Screwed.  I am sure others can add to the list, but those are among the reasons that KQ5 is a little lower on the totem pole.  But for me it still wins over KQ1, 2, and 7 for how fun to replay. 

Mordack's castle is amazing and soooo scary, I still get terrified when I go in there.  Death is lurking around every corner and to me Mordack is by far the scariest villain.  The others seemed cartoony and afraid to actually kill people, I knew Mordack would kill me and my whole family without hesitation.