POStudios Forum

The Lounge => Gaming Talk => Topic started by: Bludshot on December 06, 2012, 11:48:46 PM

Title: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 06, 2012, 11:48:46 PM
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/posts/242547

Just curious to see how folks here feel about this.  Personally I think it is great and a long overdue discussion to be had.  I wonder how adventure games compare to other genres in terms of these problematic tropes.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 07, 2012, 02:35:25 AM
I can to have great aversion to debates to the treatment and representation of women mostly because even among people who really focus on how women as mistreated there is no set understanding of what a woman even is.

Often to the extent where they are soo focused on the issue that they kind of forget what makes a good "character".

Which brings me to Bludshot's statement

Quote
these problematic tropes

Which is something I had to think about for a long time.

What makes female exploitation in videogames? Is it the clothes, physical features, or how they act? and I've come to the conclusion that it really is none of it.

It has nothing to do with the fact that there are scantly clad super buxomed sexually provocative women but rather both the saturation of these traits and the fact that they are used against the very characters they are often found on (AKA The Chainmail Bikini)

Since as we all know women who are beautiful, big breasted, and sexual exist in real life (and we cannot hold everything to real life). So the existance of those traits in games cannot be the problem in it of itself.

Nor can we assume that these traits are exclusive to being attractive to men. Since women are also attracted to attractive women.

Which my knowledge of this topic it makes any discussion on this issue terrible because they tend to fall into two categories

1) Women do not exist they are a fantasy unicorn
-As in it ignores that women like women
2) Women are chaste angels
-As in it ignores that women exist in all spectrums.

One video actually tried to discuss what made a good "Woman" character as in something seperate from just a good character and honestly... It failed. It failed because it failed to even define what a "Woman issue" was.

The only one I thought actually had a good point was where they discussed simply how women are potrayed. It said that women who are obviously sexual in personality and who are presented as such are fine (Like Bayonetta) but that the vast majority of women in videogames are rarely shown in a way that matches their character, often standing in odd sexual poses.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 07, 2012, 05:49:52 AM
I have to say, I'm not a fan of her work, but more on that in a minute.

The first question I'd like to ask is why DID she need this kickstarter? she already had a youtube show called Tropes vs Women, so that already establishes she has the audio and video equipement, at best you could say she needed a capture card, but if that's the case she could've just gotten an easycapture card wich records at 480p and costs 20 bucks.


Is it to buy the consoles? No, in her video she shows that she already owns a PS3, Xbox 360 and a Wii.

Is it to buy the games? Then why the heck did she ask for $6,000? If she plans to target games like Bayonneta or the old Tomb Raider games they'll likely cost in a worst case scenario $30, heck, she can probably get them for $10.

As for her tropes vs women videos, I'm not a fan (I haven't seen her videogaming work yet), I saw three of her videos:
Suckerpunch
The Straw Feminist
The Lego for girls one

I agreed with the first two, but I strongly disagreed with the lego one, first off, she used a baseless assumption that lego are a 'boys' toy', I'd argue that legos are genderless, when I was in school plenty of girls loved legos, heck, my girlfriend still plays with them and she's 30 whereas I never really cared for them.

Then she basically implied lego of being sexist for creating the lego for girls line, in which toys basically ammounted to a mix of barbie/lego with lots of pink and paster colors thrown into it.

Yeah here's the thing, do you know why they did this? Because it sells! Girls toys are pink and cute and whatnot because they sell!

Do you think if Lego wanted to appeal to boys they wouldn't create a line with weapons and tanks and monsters and giant robots?

oh wait:
(http://www.animationmagazine.net/images/bionicle_games.gif)

THEY ALREADY DID!

I don't remember anyone crying foul when that happened.

This is the main reason why I don't watch her videos, to me Anita Sarkeesian falls into one of her own tropes: The Straw Feminist.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 07, 2012, 07:47:00 AM
I'm very interested in what comes from the Kickstarter and I wish I'd heard about it before it was over so I could've donated. I checked out her videos on youtube and enjoyed those, as well.

Stika: How is she a Straw Feminist, exactly? The definition of that, from TVTropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawFeminist), is:
Quote
A character whose feminism is drawn only for the purposes of either proving them wrong or ridiculing them.
More likely to fight an imaginary male conspiracy rather than actually helping disadvantaged women, often being an out-and-out misandrist with exaggerated beliefs.

Which is not the case here. Maybe you disagree on the Lego example (I happen to think she has valid points on it, personally), but overall this would imply that she's imagined all of this in the first place? Which isn't true. The tropes exist, the biases exist, and they merit analysis both in terms of what they represent and what messages they in turn send or reinforce. Additionally, her question & intent have nothing to do with "Why would Lego do this?" in terms of marketing and whether a product will sell. Sexist products of any kind WILL sell, that's a given. Her area of interest in the culture of these tropes.

As for the money: I don't imagine it's cheap or free to produce a professional series of videos as she does. Equipment, shooting, editing, buying the games themselves, possibly paying for people's time and work on the project--all of these things cost money. If this work is her fulltime job (I don't know if it is or isn't), then this is supporting her business. If someone posts an artistic creative project on Kickstarter, I don't tell them to go buy a start paint kit for $20 at their local craft store. And there are far more BS-filled Kickstarters out there--I could rail on about Penny Arcade's Kickstarter, for just one example. But this conversation isn't about the validity of what the money will be used on.

As Bludshot linked specifically to her post about the harassment she received during the Kickstarter, I'll address that. It also brings to mind the recent Twitter explosion of "#1reasonwhy", where women in the gaming industry tweeted about the treatment they've experienced in the industry. In both cases, a lot of really awful things came to light, things that leave me asking why the hell would anyone ever think it's okay to act in these ways? Sometimes people don't realize that's what they're doing, but that's not an excuse. In the case of what was done to Anita, it's just outright deplorable what people did. And the very fact that it happened does reinforce that yes, this is worth doing and researching, and yes, there is a problem here and a conversation that needs to happen. A change that needs to happen.

I think it's happening, really, and I'm glad of that.

I'm also very glad to say that I've personally never experienced any of the harassment or treatment that I hear horror stories about, either at any cons I've been to or at work. The guys and girls at Phoenix are awesome and respectful, and it's just one reason I love this team.

UPDATE:

Anita recently gave a TED talk about Online Harassment & Cyber Mobs, specifically focusing on what happened to her:  http://youtu.be/GZAxwsg9J9Q

Between that & information on her website, it's confirmed that yes, this is her fulltime work at this time, as well as having at least one other fulltime employee on it, her producer, as well as another part-time writer/reearcher. Also a number of systems (she lists 11), and over 300 games. So, yes, that the money asked for therefore was funneled into paying for business costs to support a specific project, which is indeed what Kickstarter funds are intended to be used for. More details on that can be found in her update here (http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/08/quick-tropes-vs-women-projec-update/).
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Rosella on December 07, 2012, 09:50:44 AM
...I literally just did a project on this and uploaded it to my YouTube account.  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsoMRQpXs0A&list=PLA1Rkhz57CBFF3tu9jJf1c-g6ITezXUzS)

Odd, anyway.

First off, her Tropes vs Women series was sponsored by a magazine, so she DID need money for that. Every other point, I think Katie made. :P

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with a lot of the points she makes. For example, in one of her Tropes vs. Women videos, she makes a point about it being offensive that men refer to women as their "muse." You know, because women can make art too! We're not just here to be pretty and inspire art! Unless I missed something about her point, it's kind of ridiculous to be offended by the notion of "You have inspired me to make this wonderful thing." :P Regardless, she certainly has the right to make these videos and, more importantly, the right to start a Kickstarter without receiving death threats and veritable torrents of harassment.

And Neonivek, do you really not understand how making most women either buxom and provocative or innocent, chaste angels is kind of offensive? It doesn't matter if I were attracted to buxom, provocative women, that still doesn't make it any more okay to, more or less, represent an entire gender that way. I would be annoyed as anything if all of the male characters in games were swoon-worthy romance novel kinds of guys. Making people into people requires giving them some depth. It doesn't matter that some women are attracted to women or that women exist that are big-breasted and sexual. The fact is that women aren't generally being represented on a spectrum, just on one end.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 07, 2012, 10:12:52 AM
*scurries over to watch Rosella's videos*

Also good points! I didn't really get into the whole aspect of why there IS an issue that needs to be addressed & discussed. As Rosella says, it comes from that far too often, female characters are portrayed in ways that are streeotyped far more often than male characters, from physical representation to being two-dimensional plot tools. Anita's videos are an exploration of these tropes--that they exist, that they continue to be used, that people often don't understand why they're incorrect, unfair, or even stereotypes that reinforce flawed ideas of what women are or should be like and how they should be treated in real life as well as in games/movies/TV shows/etc.

The muse argument--I also don't think there's an issue with being one's inspiration, but yes, I think her point was to that end of, why can't this female muse be making her own art and inspiring herself too?


(incidentally, Rosella, what kind of microphone do you use for recording?)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Rosella on December 07, 2012, 10:17:46 AM
My point was that being someone's muse does not prohibit one from making things of their own. "You inspired me" does not carry the connotation of "And that is all you can possibly do to contribute to art." Maybe it was supposed to be an inspirational thing, but it came off as indignant that someone would say such a thing.

(Also, I just use the on-board mic near my webcam. I know it's awful, but I have another and that is about the same quality only more quiet.)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 07, 2012, 10:25:38 AM
I'm very interested in what comes from the Kickstarter and I wish I'd heard about it before it was over so I could've donated. I checked out her videos on youtube and enjoyed those, as well.

Stika: How is she a Straw Feminist, exactly? The definition of that, from TVTropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawFeminist), is:
Quote
A character whose feminism is drawn only for the purposes of either proving them wrong or ridiculing them.
More likely to fight an imaginary male conspiracy rather than actually helping disadvantaged women, often being an out-and-out misandrist with exaggerated beliefs.

Which is not the case here. Maybe you disagree on the Lego example (I happen to think she has valid points on it, personally), but overall this would imply that she's imagined all of this in the first place? Which isn't true. The tropes exist, the biases exist, and they merit analysis both in terms of what they represent and what messages they in turn send or reinforce. Additionally, her question & intent have nothing to do with "Why would Lego do this?" in terms of marketing and whether a product will sell. Sexist products of any kind WILL sell, that's a given. Her area of interest in the culture of these tropes.

I believe in the Lego case she was a straw feminist, their base product is as genderless as you can get, I don't see why should the fact that they added in two lines, one specifically for boys and one girls would be considered sexist, as said before, every company does this, the difference is that lego's main attraction is the genderless line.

As for the money: I don't imagine it's cheap or free to produce a professional series of videos as she does. Equipment, shooting, editing, buying the games themselves, possibly paying for people's time and work on the project--all of these things cost money. If this work is her fulltime job (I don't know if it is or isn't), then this is supporting her business. If someone posts an artistic creative project on Kickstarter, I don't tell them to go buy a start paint kit for $20 at their local craft store. And there are far more BS-filled Kickstarters out there--I could rail on about Penny Arcade's Kickstarter, for just one example. But this conversation isn't about the validity of what the money will be used on.

As I stated before, she already had a sucessful online show  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZn_lJoN6PI)before initiating the kickstarter, so I ask again: what exactly was the money used for? she obviously already had all of the filming equipment.

and it wasn't for the consoles either as she already owned them (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8I0Wy58adM), to me, her kickstarter felt more like a publicity stunt.

As for Penny Arcade, I don't read their comics, I didn't even know they had a kickstarter, so I can't comment on it

 

As Bludshot linked specifically to her post about the harassment she received during the Kickstarter, I'll address that. It also brings to mind the recent Twitter explosion of "#1reasonwhy", where women in the gaming industry tweeted about the treatment they've experienced in the industry. In both cases, a lot of really awful things came to light, things that leave me asking why the hell would anyone ever think it's okay to act in these ways? Sometimes people don't realize that's what they're doing, but that's not an excuse. In the case of what was done to Anita, it's just outright deplorable what people did. And the very fact that it happened does reinforce that yes, this is worth doing and researching, and yes, there is a problem here and a conversation that needs to happen. A change that needs to happen.

I think it's happening, really, and I'm glad of that.
To be honest, this goes both ways, obviously the hate on Anita was spiteful, childish and tremendously stupid, but let's not pretend she doesn't have her fair share of raging followers. I remember seeing a video response to one of Anita's videos in which it was a woman simply saying "I disagree", she was obviously joking, but that didn't stop Anita's supporters from bashing and insulting this other woman for months on end.

I'm also very glad to say that I've personally never experienced any of the harassment or treatment that I hear horror stories about, either at any cons I've been to or at work. The guys and girls at Phoenix are awesome and respectful, and it's just one reason I love this team.

UPDATE:

Anita recently gave a TED talk about Online Harassment & Cyber Mobs, specifically focusing on what happened to her:  http://youtu.be/GZAxwsg9J9Q

Between that & information on her website, it's confirmed that yes, this is her fulltime work at this time, as well as having at least one other fulltime employee on it, her producer, as well as another part-time writer/reearcher. Also a number of systems (she lists 11), and over 300 games. So, yes, that the money asked for therefore was funneled into paying for business costs to support a specific project, which is indeed what Kickstarter funds are intended to be used for. More details on that can be found in her update here (http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/08/quick-tropes-vs-women-projec-update/).

I'm not sure how much of that I agree with, but it's not something I can prove one way or another
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on December 07, 2012, 10:27:31 AM
Regardless, she certainly has the right to make these videos and, more importantly, the right to start a Kickstarter without receiving death threats and veritable torrents of harassment.
This response to her project is enough to demonstrate that there is a problem. I would assume (or at least hope) that this was done by a very vocal minority, but still... it's disturbing that there are people out there that think that kind of behavior is acceptable. >:(

I haven't really done enough gaming to be able to address the issue of treatment of women in games, but based on the fact that gaming has traditionally been a guy thing, I can imagine... I think it's a good thing that it's becoming more mainstream for girls to be into gaming. :)

And Neonivek, do you really not understand how making most women either buxom and provocative or innocent, chaste angels is kind of offensive? ... The fact is that women aren't generally being represented on a spectrum, just on one end.
Well, two extremes; just not the middle 95%  (made-up number :P). I think this is probably somewhat true of male characters, as well, though again, men are probably the primary target audience (i.e. a character that men wish they could be). Since much of entertainment is escapist, it seems like it would be difficult to make "normal" characters widely appealing. :-\

I have to agree with stika on the pink Legos, though. I don't see a problem with marketing to both males and females. "Pink" may be a girl stereotype, but if it sells, that's all the company really cares about. I guess you could argue that it's perpetuating stereotypes, but it's hard to fault a corporation for not "rocking the boat" at the expense of its continued success. (Note: I've done some reading, but I have yet to actually watch her videos.)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 07, 2012, 10:29:12 AM
...I literally just did a project on this and uploaded it to my YouTube account.  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsoMRQpXs0A&list=PLA1Rkhz57CBFF3tu9jJf1c-g6ITezXUzS)

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with a lot of the points she makes. For example, in one of her Tropes vs. Women videos, she makes a point about it being offensive that men refer to women as their "muse." You know, because women can make art too! We're not just here to be pretty and inspire art! Unless I missed something about her point, it's kind of ridiculous to be offended by the notion of "You have inspired me to make this wonderful thing." Tongue Regardless, she certainly has the right to make these videos and, more importantly, the right to start a Kickstarter without receiving death threats and veritable torrents of harassment.






So far I only saw the first video, I liked what I saw and I agree with all of it. Good luck with your series, I'll watch the rest of them tonight when I have more free time :)

And I agree that there is a huge gender issue problem in both gaming and gamers that need be adressed ASAP, but what can I say, I am just not a fan of Anita's work, I feel that in one short episode, the web show "extra credit" was able to tap into the subject better and more tastefully then Anita would, though I'm only judging this by her feminist frequency videos


EDIT: my bad, it was actually two extra credits episodes

True Female characters (http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/true-female-characters)
harrassment (http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/harassment)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 07, 2012, 10:38:20 AM
The Lego thing--I think that actually IS exactly her point. Legos ARE a genderless product, and that's a great thing about them. So why do they need to be gendered at all? And then the fact that the "girl" Legos were all pink and emphasized a lot of stereotypes just added to the problem.


True, games (and other media) are escapist. And true, the stereotypes don't apply ONLY to women by any means. But the ones that show up on female characters are far more often the problematic ones--the buxom sexpot, the damsel in distress, the virgin or the w****, the woman who's only focus is a man, etc. Portrayals that lack dimension and that marginalize the characters are far more prevalent for females than males.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 07, 2012, 10:40:49 AM
The Lego thing--I think that actually IS exactly her point. Legos ARE a genderless product, and that's a great thing about them. So why do they need to be gendered at all? And then the fact that the "girl" Legos were all pink and emphasized a lot of stereotypes just added to the problem.

Why not? I mean it's not like they're forcing you to buy them, why wouldn't you want the extra option? I'd understand your point if they were phasing out the old genderless products, but to my knowledge, the classic lego line is still the most commercially sucessful

As I said, Lego created the Bionicle series years before the lego for 'girls' line, Bionicle was clearly targeted at boys, yet no one complained, so why are we complaining now?


True, games (and other media) are escapist. And true, the stereotypes don't apply ONLY to women by any means. But the ones that show up on female characters are far more often the problematic ones--the buxom sexpot, the damsel in distress, the virgin or the w****, the woman who's only focus is a man, etc. Portrayals that lack dimension and that marginalize the characters are far more prevalent for females than males.
That we can both agree on
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on December 07, 2012, 11:11:34 AM
...and now I've watched her Lego videos, and I have to agree with her. I don't have a problem with pink and purple Legos (and there's really no reason those have to be "girl" colors), but the fact that the girl Lego universe is all beauty salons and housewives is pretty messed up. It's like they suddenly decided they needed to fix their history of marketing mainly to boys by introducing Lego Barbie dolls. :-\ She's right that this strategy largely segregates boys' and girls' play into stereotypical roles. I still say that they are following the money - and it's easier to cater to existing stereotypes than to try to go against them - but I think they could do a lot better than this.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 07, 2012, 11:26:25 AM
...I literally just did a project on this and uploaded it to my YouTube account.  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsoMRQpXs0A&list=PLA1Rkhz57CBFF3tu9jJf1c-g6ITezXUzS)


just saw the rest.

Sexism in Gaming Culture: Yeah, back in the arcade days the mood was very competitive, to the point where bad players were ostracized, though that could also be related to the fact that said arcades were frequented by kids in school, who are more prone to forming gangs or cliques. I think the issue here is being able to draw the line between harassment and unhealthy competition and that is actually a lot harder then it seems, for example, the XBL message you showed can be used for guys as well, so I'm not sure if that particular example is 'sexism', or just 'harassment' . Regardless, I hope you reported the guy :P

Final Thoughts: I wish the episode were longer :P

Sexism in Gaming Culture: I laughed so hard when you called that youtube idiots' 'advice' valid xD

As for Assassin's creed... I never played any of the games so I can't really comment on it, as for what games can appeal to female gamers, I like to think that the concept has been evolving... slowly, but evolving, yes there are some pretty lame titles out there like the imagine series, though luckilly some other games like Terraria, Plants vs. Zombies and Portal were commercially successful partly due to the female demographic, not saying we're anything close to being 'there', but I do think we made some progress





(Posted on: December 07, 2012, 02:23:03 PM)


...and now I've watched her Lego videos, and I have to agree with her. I don't have a problem with pink and purple Legos (and there's really no reason those have to be "girl" colors),

even in that regard I think she mis-represented the product (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/01/hey-anti-lego-feminists-lego-for-girls-actually-kicks-ass/)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on December 07, 2012, 11:39:05 AM
Sexism in Gaming Culture: I laughed so hard when you called that youtube idiots' 'advice' valid xD
XD

...and now I've watched her Lego videos, and I have to agree with her. I don't have a problem with pink and purple Legos (and there's really no reason those have to be "girl" colors),

even in that regard I think she mis-represented the product (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/01/hey-anti-lego-feminists-lego-for-girls-actually-kicks-ass/)
She actually showed the picture from that article in the video. I think her point was that even though you *can* make cool stuff like that, girls aren't being encouraged to do so. In the same way, even though you can use the girls' and boys' sets together, they aren't being marketed in a way that encourages it.

Regardless, I think we can agree that the whole gender equality thing is more than one company can fix. It's not going to get fixed unless people work on it, though.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 07, 2012, 11:43:25 AM
Sexism in Gaming Culture: I laughed so hard when you called that youtube idiots' 'advice' valid xD
XD

...and now I've watched her Lego videos, and I have to agree with her. I don't have a problem with pink and purple Legos (and there's really no reason those have to be "girl" colors),

even in that regard I think she mis-represented the product (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/01/hey-anti-lego-feminists-lego-for-girls-actually-kicks-ass/)
She actually showed the picture from that article in the video. I think her point was that even though you *can* make cool stuff like that, girls aren't being encouraged to do so. In the same way, even though you can use the girls' and boys' sets together, they aren't being marketed in a way that encourages it.

Regardless, I think we can agree that the whole gender equality thing is more than one company can fix. It's not going to get fixed unless people work on it, though.
she did? I'll admit I haven't seen her videos in quite a while, so my bad on that.

And it's true that the 'girls' line doesn't encourage that, but as I said before, if that's the problem, then get the gender neutral line :P

Overall, I think these lines were a nice decision by Lego as they basically gave you more options
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 07, 2012, 05:05:00 PM
she did? I'll admit I haven't seen her videos in quite a while, so my bad on that.

And it's true that the 'girls' line doesn't encourage that, but as I said before, if that's the problem, then get the gender neutral line :P

Overall, I think these lines were a nice decision by Lego as they basically gave you more options

I think the issue is that Lego is actively putting out something to girls saying what is expected of their gender, while thankfully that messgae doesn't carry through all of their products, the gendered ones are still sending a dated message.

I'm looking forward to her video about the few female videogame characters that are actually well done, I guess I'm hoping that there will be more than just a tiny handful, or at the very least there is a trend of female characters improving as the industry gets older.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 07, 2012, 05:38:02 PM
she did? I'll admit I haven't seen her videos in quite a while, so my bad on that.

And it's true that the 'girls' line doesn't encourage that, but as I said before, if that's the problem, then get the gender neutral line :P

Overall, I think these lines were a nice decision by Lego as they basically gave you more options

I think the issue is that Lego is actively putting out something to girls saying what is expected of their gender, while thankfully that messgae doesn't carry through all of their products, the gendered ones are still sending a dated message.

I'm looking forward to her video about the few female videogame characters that are actually well done, I guess I'm hoping that there will be more than just a tiny handful, or at the very least there is a trend of female characters improving as the industry gets older.
see, but then we go back to one of my original points: howcome no one complained when Lego launched their bionicle line? It was launched years before the 'girls' line and it was undoubtedly marketed at boys
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 07, 2012, 07:46:47 PM
Quote
And Neonivek, do you really not understand how making most women either buxom and provocative or innocent, chaste angels is kind of offensive? It doesn't matter if I were attracted to buxom, provocative women, that still doesn't make it any more okay to, more or less, represent an entire gender that way. I would be annoyed as anything if all of the male characters in games were swoon-worthy romance novel kinds of guys. Making people into people requires giving them some depth. It doesn't matter that some women are attracted to women or that women exist that are big-breasted and sexual. The fact is that women aren't generally being represented on a spectrum, just on one end

I did not expect this response... Especially since frankly I delt with it earlier by saying that the existance of these tropes are not offensive to women in any way but that the saturation (too many), use against character, and use against story of these tropes is what makes them harmful.

The key is if these traits fit the character and do not rub off as blanket statements for women as a whole.

Which is the thing I had to come to terms with because I sort of realised that many of the most sexualised characters were also greatly attractive to women, afterall an attractive smart intelligent strong woman who gets to have fun in a while is not a hard towards a female audiance, and that the issue isn't so much that women are in these roles so much that these are the only roles they seem to play.

As well the problem isn't the complete opposite either. The Pure woman in a long flowing dress who likes to cook and hates getting her hands dirty (or perhaps she likes cleaning) isn't a problem either in it of itself. Nothing is wrong with a character who exibits those characteristics. They are attractive because that is an attractive character.

Why do I even bother? because I had to look at many female characters and see what was really wrong with them and noticed that even though they fell into these steriotypes many of them just worked as characters on their own. As well there were others who had these very same traits forced upon them to their detriment (Ohh dear goodness what did they do to you Sophitia?)

Oddly enough I think many other sources did a better job of sort of understanding that these issues are not about reversing them entirely but instead moving it away from oversaturation and exploitation.

Which is where we get to

Quote
It doesn't matter if I were attracted to buxom, provocative women, that still doesn't make it any more okay to, more or less, represent an entire gender that way

Who gets to really? Who gets to define the entire gender. The issue is that as a whole we get to. Not the fact that anyone gets to use women in that way.

The fact that you are attracted to buxom provocative women is very important because it means that they arn't nessisarily "male attraction only" traits.

It really is a question about what is a woman and the answer is "anything".

Mind you this doesn't exclude the existance of tropes that are unjustifyable... but still.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 07, 2012, 07:50:10 PM
she did? I'll admit I haven't seen her videos in quite a while, so my bad on that.

And it's true that the 'girls' line doesn't encourage that, but as I said before, if that's the problem, then get the gender neutral line :P

Overall, I think these lines were a nice decision by Lego as they basically gave you more options

I think the issue is that Lego is actively putting out something to girls saying what is expected of their gender, while thankfully that messgae doesn't carry through all of their products, the gendered ones are still sending a dated message.

I'm looking forward to her video about the few female videogame characters that are actually well done, I guess I'm hoping that there will be more than just a tiny handful, or at the very least there is a trend of female characters improving as the industry gets older.
see, but then we go back to one of my original points: howcome no one complained when Lego launched their bionicle line? It was launched years before the 'girls' line and it was undoubtedly marketed at boys

The girl toy line deals with suggestions on what a girls hobbies should be in day to day life.  I don't think anyone is suggesting boys should grow up to be killer robots.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 07, 2012, 08:14:48 PM
It teaches boys to be violent, leaders, and mechanically inclined and thus proliferating male steriotypes

:P

Ok not really sorta maybe. You never know in these conversations. Dang it Bionicle!
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Rosella on December 07, 2012, 09:20:08 PM
The fact that you are attracted to buxom provocative women is very important because it means that they arn't nessisarily "male attraction only" traits.

It doesn't matter if they're "male attraction only" traits. If they're "attraction only" traits, they're offensive. I don't care who women are being objectified by, just that they're being objectified. XD
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 07, 2012, 09:48:55 PM
The fact that you are attracted to buxom provocative women is very important because it means that they arn't nessisarily "male attraction only" traits.

It doesn't matter if they're "male attraction only" traits. If they're "attraction only" traits, they're offensive. I don't care who women are being objectified by, just that they're being objectified. XD

If they are "attraction only" traits they are not offensive they are attractive as in they are traits in which we call attention to. In the same way that being beautiful, even if modest, would be an "attraction only" trait.

By establishing that certain traits are attractive to both sexes you establish that it isn't nessisarily objectification but possibly idealisation. In the same way that even a male character can have their physical traits idealised.

Remember what women as with men are sexual creatures and we cannot limit them to purely nonsexual roles.

As that Rosella goes into the error people make I call "Women are Chaste angels".

The difference however Rosella is how it is handled and how much it is used. Which I will admit I am hesitant to give examples because I am sure they are largely contested.

Though I guess if I had to give examples of two sexualised character one who does it right and one who does it badly and a gun was pointed to my head... I'd give Anna Williums from Tekken as an example of it being done right, and lets say Taki from Soul Calibur doing it wrong.

Anna Williums is a sexualised character but that really is part of her character and it isn't treated as a negative trait nor does it impeed upon her competence (In fact she is one of the most skilled and competent fighters in the series), as well there is no reason why she could have this trait either (Since her job actually benefits from it).

Taki is given supernaturally huge freefloating breasts, that look like balloons personally, to someone who would be greatly hindered by having them and clearly isn't a sexual character herself, she just has a sexualised appearance. There is a reason why people joke that she uses her breasts as a balance for her flips.

Now, I am not 100% these examples are the best. In fact I could be dissuaded that Anna Williums is in fact a terrible example of a sexual woman not being terrible (easy since I am kinda Prudish)... but its the best I got for now.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 07, 2012, 10:11:11 PM
Just because it's "attractive" (which is a completely subjective thing), doesn't mean it isn't objectification. Because objectifying means turning something or someone into an object--in this case, an object instead of a person. It's putting the emphasis on their body rather over any other trait they might have, glossing over or ignoring who they are or what they do. It's the emphasis of the physical form as the only important thing about this person--be they male or female. 
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 07, 2012, 10:24:05 PM
Quote
It's the emphasis of the physical form as the only important thing about this person--be they male or female.

Exactly it is how it is done rather then the fact that it is done.

I mean there are exceptions to even that but they fall outside this conversation (for example first person narrative is a valid way to include outright objectification without it nessisarily being a bad thing).

Mind you I think your definition needs a bit more formation since hardly ANY female character is purely objectified.

Even the most over sexualised woman who is only there for the eye candy of the audiance can often have genuin characterisation. Dead or Alive for example is a series that sells itself on the objectification of women, to the point where it has sort of become almost a self parody, and yet quite a few of the character have genuin stories.

It isn't the fact that they have plotlines that means they arn't objectified. It is the fact that their objectification is put in the forefront and often used against their very character and plotlines.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on December 08, 2012, 06:04:25 AM
Quote
Mind you I think your definition needs a bit more formation since hardly ANY female character is purely objectified.

But objectification can take place within characterisation.

If you have a female character who is helpless, or who is adored by the male protagonist and this adoration then drives the plot, or who is "saved" in the end by the protagonist, then the characterisation of that female character only exists to pander to male fantasies of being strong, masculine, saving the day, being in control and, ultimately, having the woman to himself and therefore controlling her.

It should also be borne in mind that, while women are objectified in the real world as well (eg. showgirls, the behaviour of teens in school, sexual offenses in the workplace), this is no excuse for objectifying women in film/books/games. The reason the real world objectifies women is because the real world is, for the most part, a patriarchal sphere in which women are seen as either prizes to be captured or hopelessly inept people who should leave anything complicated to men.

(This has got a lot better over the past century or so, but given the way women are sometimes treated in the workplace - via groping or the expectation they'll sleep with the boss - or on gaming forums or within tech culture - "Sorry, you're a woman so you can't possibly understand technology - can I speak to a man please?" - it's clearly still with us in some sense.)

Now granted, an accurate representation of the real world and its patriarchal bias will result in an artwork which recreates these situations. The key, though, is to present them but not to endorse or practice them. If a woman is presented sexually in a videogame and objectified by other characters, a valid response from the game would be to present the woman as a complete character and show what effect this sexualisation has on her - perhaps she feels uncomfortable being looked at all the time, for example. (A good example of this is Silence of the Lambs, which showed how uncomfortable Clarisse was as a female police officer, ie. in a man's world.) What the game should not do is just roll with the sexualisation and have the woman accept it to the extent that it eclipses the rest of her character.

Sexual women are fine: people are sexual. But making a character sexual to the point where she exists largely to fulfil the fantasies of male players means that she herself, as a character, is simply an object. Yes all characters are fictional anyway and are to some extent objects, but the key is to give the illusion of depth, to suggest that there might be more to a woman than large breasts and a tendency to need to be rescued.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Rosella on December 08, 2012, 07:19:07 AM
Very well said.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 08, 2012, 08:12:38 AM
she did? I'll admit I haven't seen her videos in quite a while, so my bad on that.

And it's true that the 'girls' line doesn't encourage that, but as I said before, if that's the problem, then get the gender neutral line :P

Overall, I think these lines were a nice decision by Lego as they basically gave you more options

I think the issue is that Lego is actively putting out something to girls saying what is expected of their gender, while thankfully that messgae doesn't carry through all of their products, the gendered ones are still sending a dated message.

I'm looking forward to her video about the few female videogame characters that are actually well done, I guess I'm hoping that there will be more than just a tiny handful, or at the very least there is a trend of female characters improving as the industry gets older.
see, but then we go back to one of my original points: howcome no one complained when Lego launched their bionicle line? It was launched years before the 'girls' line and it was undoubtedly marketed at boys

The girl toy line deals with suggestions on what a girls hobbies should be in day to day life.  I don't think anyone is suggesting boys should grow up to be killer robots.
but it encourages violence and teaches them that fighting can be the right solution.
Right?

as for the whole 'buxom women are not sexist' argument that is going on... yeah I'm not even going to touch subject, so I'll just say this:

Buxom female characters in games are most often the most boring characters in said games, imo.

My favorite female character thus far was Farrah from Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, a shame how they ruined her in the two thrones
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on December 08, 2012, 10:49:00 AM
Quote
Mind you I think your definition needs a bit more formation since hardly ANY female character is purely objectified.

But objectification can take place within characterisation.

If you have a female character who is helpless, or who is adored by the male protagonist and this adoration then drives the plot, or who is "saved" in the end by the protagonist, then the characterisation of that female character only exists to pander to male fantasies of being strong, masculine, saving the day, being in control and, ultimately, having the woman to himself and therefore controlling her.
This isn't at all limited to videogames and I disagree: There needs to be an established relationship in order for the player to have any incentive at all to save her. And if there's already a relationship, this doesn't weaken them as characters and it doesn't mean they relinquish control to the saviours. Saving someone enables them to become a more complete character because they're no longer being held back and can now develop properly. I agree that plots aren't usually fleshed out to this extent, but the potential for better, stronger characters is now definitely there because they should both be made stronger by the experience and interaction.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 08, 2012, 02:49:15 PM
Quote
If you have a female character who is helpless, or who is adored by the male protagonist and this adoration then drives the plot, or who is "saved" in the end by the protagonist, then the characterisation of that female character only exists to pander to male fantasies of being strong, masculine, saving the day, being in control and, ultimately, having the woman to himself and therefore controlling her

Actually there is nothing wrong with this either and there are male and female versions of this.

Characters exist for a purpose and this character is there to be saved and to make the protagonist wish to save them.

Is them being a "damsel" offensive to their character, story, or situation? It is being projected upon women as a whole?

Quote
If a woman is presented sexually in a videogame and objectified by other characters, a valid response from the game would be to present the woman as a complete character and show what effect this sexualisation has on her - perhaps she feels uncomfortable being looked at all the time, for example

Ignoring the weird situation. This is a good example. Even Princess Peach has shown her personal oppinion on her constant kidnapping (she doesn't care and treats it like a regular occurance). Which given the context of the series and the fact that Bowser doesn't really seem to do anything to her or anyone.

Though yes one of the major ways in which these steriotypes are used negatively is that they entirely unfocus on the female and treat her as completely unimportant within her own plight (such as anytime rape is used to motivate a male.)

Quote
I agree that plots aren't usually fleshed out to this extent, but the potential for better, stronger characters is now definitely there because they should both be made stronger by the experience and interaction.

I don't know, not every character needs to be a strong character. I certainly know that if I was in a work of fiction I could easily be the "Damsel" because I don't have the skillset nor bravery to really save myself.

I also doubt it would make me a better person to be saved.

Quote
It should also be borne in mind that, while women are objectified in the real world as well (eg. showgirls, the behaviour of teens in school, sexual offenses in the workplace), this is no excuse for objectifying women in film/books/games

It gives context to the sphere of characters that can exist.

The thing is, you have to gender flip as well.

For example is the Shallow Love interest in the Titanic offensive to men? Is the shallow love interest Villain in the same movie offensive to men? They are both objectified but what is the difference?

What is the difference between neutral and negative objectification? Since there is obviously a difference.

Also yes I am aware that taking this possition easily makes me the villain. It is why I tend to stay out of these kinds of conversations.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on December 08, 2012, 03:57:00 PM
Quote
I agree that plots aren't usually fleshed out to this extent, but the potential for better, stronger characters is now definitely there because they should both be made stronger by the experience and interaction.

I don't know, not every character needs to be a strong character. I certainly know that if I was in a work of fiction I could easily be the "Damsel" because I don't have the skillset nor bravery to really save myself.

I also doubt it would make me a better person to be saved.
Do you need to be saved? :P You can't be saved by just anyone either; there needs to be an emotional connection to make it worthwhile and meaningful for both parties. Saving someone because you love them deeply and want to help them is beautiful. Saving someone because you want to feel like a saviour isn't.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 08, 2012, 04:01:51 PM
Maybe my hero (male or female) just wants to do the right thing.

Heck maybe to them I am the worst human being who has ever lived.

"Saving someone because you want to feel like a saviour isn't."

Well unless that is part of the story. I certainly have seen stories of someone doing a lot of good things to try to get the "goody goody" feeling. Or Heros who just like the glory of being someone's savior.

Really there is no wrong reason to why you want to save someone. There is just a right or wrong way for a story to handle it.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 08, 2012, 05:01:53 PM
Is it sexist if, in games that allow you to choose the gender of your character, I always choose female because it's more fun spending hours on end staring at chick-ass than man-ass?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 08, 2012, 05:09:16 PM
Is it sexist if, in games that allow you to choose the gender of your character, I always choose female because it's more fun spending hours on end staring at chick-ass than man-ass?

Isn't the answer no? That you arn't passing judgement or illwill upon women or men. Nor are you chosing to disadvantage one or the other, nor unjustly advantage one or the other?

You just have a preference on what kind of butt you like to look at?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 08, 2012, 07:55:22 PM
Is it sexist if, in games that allow you to choose the gender of your character, I always choose female because it's more fun spending hours on end staring at chick-ass than man-ass?

The ass only highlights sexism if it is the only thing that character has going on.  Commander Shepard has a nice ass, but that isn't the most important thing about her.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 08, 2012, 07:58:02 PM
What if it was a "Nicest ass" contest. Then the person's butt would be the most important aspect.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 08, 2012, 08:09:25 PM
Sometimes, the only good thing about a person IS their ass.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 08, 2012, 08:12:32 PM
Sometimes, the only good thing about a person IS their ass.


Bt

I'm going to make a game where all the low level mobs all are hideous on the inside and the outside, but they have one nice feature.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 08, 2012, 09:13:08 PM
Thread successfully derailed.

*takes bow*
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: GrahamRocks! on December 08, 2012, 09:17:09 PM
Oh boy... here we go... *facepalm*
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 08, 2012, 09:45:03 PM
Thread successfully derailed.

*takes bow*

Hardly, people have a certain period of time they are active on the board.

I am current waiting for the people to remain active again so they can respond to my post.

You cannot derail it simply because the train has stopped and they will continue the debate/arguement/conversation when they come back anyway. Hense why I had no problem with indulging you.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on December 08, 2012, 10:28:34 PM
Neonivek, if I'm understanding correctly, one of the points you were trying to make was this:
There's nothing inherently wrong with the existence of a female "damsel in distress" character or a male rescuer. The problem arises when the majority of female characters are presented as helpless and in need of a man to rescue them. (The same goes for the other stereotypes.) Does that sound right? I would agree with this, because I'm sure that for most stereotypes, there are people out there that really are like that. However there needs to be a balanced mix of characteristics among both male and female characters.

I'm not sure if it would be possible to make a "damsel in distress" a good character because it is SO overdone that it would just come across as an offensive stereotype. I'm not sure, but I don't think Deloria was saying that being rescued would necessarily make someone a better person but rather that it *could* do so and that it could be used to further develop the character.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 08, 2012, 10:51:49 PM
You can make a good Damsel in distress

What often makes a bad Demsel are when you get the idea that they are overly complacent.

The Maid Marium (Sorry for butchered name) from Robin Hood COULD be seen as a Damsel in distress done right. She is proactive and helps Robin Hood plenty of times. She lacks the ability to save herself and needs Robin Hoods help to do so, but she by far is willing to put the work in to change things herself.

Often the good balance for a "well done damsel" is getting the balance between a character who is active enough to do the work yet not so competent that she should know or do better.

Aunt May in Spiderman is also a Damsel who has been done right as well.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 08, 2012, 11:33:24 PM
You cannot make a good damsel in distress, their entire existence is to benefit the story of the male protagonist.

I can't attest to Aunt May in the comics, but her point in the movies is to be attacked and/or kidnapped so Spiderman can have a reason to fight the bad guy.  Heck Cassima gets pushed into this role twice.

While not every character needs to be there own fully developed trope-free being, the problem is that this is a role women almost exclusively fill.  In situations where there is a female protagonist the male sidekick/love interest rarely gets the same treatment. 

That is really the point, that any female presence in media, in this case videogames, is far too often an accessory for the male character.



Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 09, 2012, 01:33:04 AM
Quote
You cannot make a good damsel in distress, their entire existence is to benefit the story of the male protagonist

There are plenty of male damsels out there.

Even then there is nothing wrong with that type of character in it of themselves.

Though if you want an example to disprove your point I am going to go with Elaine from Monkey Island. She always gets kidnapped, always guybrushes fault, and only serves to provide the motivation for Guybrush to go and try to save her, where she saves herself, where guybrush then has to save the day, because he messed up Elaine's plan.

Mind you the arguement you CAN make is that since Monkey Island is a comedy that Elaine's competence is in fact done in farce.

Mind you one of the reasons why there are a lot more female damsels is because there is RARELY a male damsel for a male hero (and if there is, he is annoying comic relief). In that respect there are also few Female Damsels for Female heros. With female damsels for female heros happening in series that have almost no males (if not outright there being no males).
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on December 09, 2012, 02:50:08 AM
I'm not sure if it would be possible to make a "damsel in distress" a good character because it is SO overdone that it would just come across as an offensive stereotype. I'm not sure, but I don't think Deloria was saying that being rescued would necessarily make someone a better person but rather that it *could* do so and that it could be used to further develop the character.
I feel that trauma is good for character development in art because it makes the characters evolve very quickly and intensely in a medium in which the developers usually do not have enough time to explore changes that come about much more slowly. :P Likewise I think the existence of a pre-existing relationship between the saviour and the damsel will mean that he will be confronted and impacted with these issues too.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 09, 2012, 01:32:43 PM
There are definitely examples that go against the tropes--Elaine being the far more competent character out of her and Guybrush is a great example, in fact. But the thing is that she is an exception, and not the standard.

The problem is, as snabbott pointed out, that there are far MORE cases where the damsel is not more than that. She's just a two-dimensional set piece there to be an accessory to the male protagonist. Rarely given depth, personality, emotions, or anything of the sort. Let's take the Princess in the original Prince of Persia game for an example--there is nothing to her character. We're told they're in love that the evil male villain has taken her captive, and its up to male hero to save her. If you succeed, the only thing you ever see of her at the end is her running into the hero's arm. That's it.

That set up is a classic example: her entire world, situation, etc, is determined by the male characters around her. One has captured her, one liberates her. It's implied that whoever "wins" will be the one she marries, too.

Now, yes, this game doesn't have much characterization for any character in it, BUT the hero and the villain are at least given bare bones personalities via the story, and far more active roles in the story. The female is nothing. She may as well be a magic crown or sword and she'd have done exactly as much in the game as she does to begin with.

Again, there are exceptions--and hooray for those exceptions! But the "issue" is that they are the more rare occurrences and that they stand out for being such, instead of being an accepted norm the way the white male hero who saves the day is.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 09, 2012, 01:48:13 PM
Quote
But the thing is that she is an exception, and not the standard

I am just trying to establish an exception. The major difference to mine and Bludshot's arguement is that I am saying that Damsel can be done well and respectfully while Bludshot outright says that Damsel (which I assume he means a female damsel) cannot be done anything but negatively.

Quote
Let's take the Princess in the original Prince of Persia game

Does even the prince have a personality in these games?

Quote
She may as well be a magic crown or sword and she'd have done exactly as much in the game as she does to begin with.

She is magical to my knowledge (though that is established in the second, where she gets more speaking lines then the Prince and Villain combined... but it is mostly her egging you to hurry and save her).

Either way the issue is that the only way out of that would be to just not include the princess. Which would just be sort of weird.

-

Mind you when I like to show how women are mistreated in videogames I look no further then "Other M" from Metroid. Which takes one of the most battle hardened videogame characters of all time and gives her "Issues" inspite of the fact that she should be more competent.

It honestly could be used as the template for how to make a terrible female protagonist.

Mind you if the game was a prequil, it isn't, it could have worked excellently.

You know what happens in the game? Samus becomes a Damsel and needs to be saved by a man.

Why is this example of a damsel one I consider insulting to women? Because this is Samus. This is an established strong female character who is given a weakness she never had before as a way of making her more "Girly".

It is one thing to make a weak pathetic female character because ultimately that can be a weak pathetic character who happens to be female where her traits as a female doesn't factor into the reason she is weak and pathetic. It is another to make a strong and brave female character who happens to be weak and pathetic because she is a woman.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 09, 2012, 02:10:22 PM
There's only two standard genders.  You're going to offend one or the other.  The only way to keep it safe is to make all characters, at all times, hermaphrodites.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 09, 2012, 02:31:42 PM
There's only two standard genders.  You're going to offend one or the other.  The only way to keep it safe is to make all characters, at all times, hermaphrodites.

Honestly it has gotten to the point where I thought of just excluding all female characters from the fiction I am writing/making simply because there is NO way to potray a woman in an inoffensive manner. Even one who I based purely on my older sister I found to be steriotypical and likely offensive inspite being my older sister.

Still though... it could be worse. As I said "Other M" is probably some of the most offensive material to women ever made.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 09, 2012, 02:31:51 PM
There are definitely examples that go against the tropes--Elaine being the far more competent character out of her and Guybrush is a great example, in fact. But the thing is that she is an exception, and not the standard.

I have to disagree with this one.  Elaine is following a very old trope herself if you ask me.

You used to see it all the time in cartoons back in the 80's and early 90's.

These were the princesses that saved themselves, or the very competent sidekick

A few examples at the top of my mind:

Penny from Inspector Gadget
Princess Guinevere from King's Arthur Disasters
Velma from Scooby-doo
Zelda, from the Legend of Zelda cartoon
Babs bunny from Tiny Toons
Dot from the animaniacs

heck if we want more recent examples, we have princess Fiona from Shrek
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 09, 2012, 02:32:28 PM
Give me a break, everyone.

In this day and age, the "strong-willed female lead" is just as much, if not moreso, a ridiculous stereotype than the traditional "damsel-in-distress."  They're both obnoxious cliches, both sexist, and both way overused.  
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 09, 2012, 02:34:07 PM
So thus there is no way to potray a woman except to make her bland and uninteresting. Congradulations.

Well ok I don't believe that, but that is really where things go when you forget that it isn't about roles but really how those roles are threated and how often they are used.

The "Strong-Willed Female lead" for example is hardly insulting on its own. It is VERY insulting when it is used as "Ohh my a woman being a strong willed female lead? How peculiar".

It is why "Other M" is insulting.. because it weakened a competent female character because she was a woman. It treated being a woman as a weakness.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 09, 2012, 02:38:54 PM
So thus there is no way to potray a woman except to make her bland and uninteresting. Congradulations.

Honestly, the best advice I'd give to someone who is writting a female character is: Just make the character you want to make.

I remember I when I used to RP I created a female character, she was inspired off of both 80's sci-fi and fantasy B-movies, from Conan: The Barbarian, all the way to Space Mutiny and Heavy Metal.

She fell into a LOT of tropes, a lot of them not so flattering. In the end she turned out to be my most popular characters with both male and female players, seriously, everyone loved her.

So... yeah, just make the character you want to make and screw all else, because as long as you're a guy writing a female a character, there's a good chance either be accused of being sexist, pandering or writing a bland character because this seems to be hot topic these past couple of years
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 09, 2012, 02:39:21 PM

The "Strong-Willed Female lead" for example is hardly insulting on its own.

I disagree here.  The whole notion of "Strong-Willed Female Lead" is inherently sexist.  It's the writer basically saying, "Hey, this strong lead character is especially exceptional because she is also a woman and women are traditionally weak."

But anyway, whether or not it is sexist was not really my point.  The point is, it's a very common cliche in today's entertainment media.  I think nowadays we actually see "Strong-Willed Female Lead" more often than "Damsel-in-Distress."
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 09, 2012, 02:56:14 PM
by the way, if you guys have the time, this is one of the best articles on this subject (http://www.gamespot.com/users/THE_DRUGGIE/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=m-100-25999604) that I've read in recent years
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 09, 2012, 03:14:32 PM
I haven't played really any Metroid game, but I've heard that about Other M more than once, and from what I've read...yeah, way to muck that one up, guys. I'd also say there's some sexism built into how Samus's outfits have changed over the years as well.

There is absolutely a way to make a female character interesting--the same way you make a male one interesting. Make her an actual character! Flesh her out, give her a personality, motivations, etc. Don't ignore that their gender exists and will influence who they are, but don't let it be the only defining characteristic about them either. Make it one aspect out of the many that they should have.

And know that there is no way to please all the people all of the time. But you can certainly try to not offend them at the very least.

I read a recent article about how some of the most interesting female action movie characters have been ones who weren't originally written as females--specifically it talked about Ripley in Alien and Angelina Jolie's character in Salt.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 09, 2012, 03:54:10 PM
I haven't played really any Metroid game, but I've heard that about Other M more than once, and from what I've read...yeah, way to muck that one up, guys. I'd also say there's some sexism built into how Samus's outfits have changed over the years as well.

There is absolutely a way to make a female character interesting--the same way you make a male one interesting. Make her an actual character! Flesh her out, give her a personality, motivations, etc. Don't ignore that their gender exists and will influence who they are, but don't let it be the only defining characteristic about them either. Make it one aspect out of the many that they should have.

And know that there is no way to please all the people all of the time. But you can certainly try to not offend them at the very least.

I read a recent article about how some of the most interesting female action movie characters have been ones who weren't originally written as females--specifically it talked about Ripley in Alien and Angelina Jolie's character in Salt.
don't these two directly contradict each other?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 09, 2012, 04:15:27 PM
Quote
So... yeah, just make the character you want to make and screw all else, because as long as you're a guy writing a female a character, there's a good chance either be accused of being sexist, pandering or writing a bland character because this seems to be hot topic these past couple of years

It is so hard to do because I made her after I made my perfect male lead. Thus she cannot step on his heels.

Thus I ended up making a nearly mute hands on woman who was only child to a family of farmers who is psychologically mute (She cannot speak because of an insudent), being the more practical and dirrect of the two. Admittingly she isn't a damsel, but these traits can just as easily be seen as sexist. In fact one of the reasons she cannot speak was specifically because the male lead does almost nothing but talk and I wanted to make her gameplay be done with no speach whatsoever.

I created her with the intent that she would give a different style then her husband who was created before I even had the intent of a wife, but chose to have one as a way to style a series of games. So while the Male lead of the first game would talk a lot and be very scholarly with his solutions involving thinking out solutions. She would be more about using her wits and abilities and being more of a much more pure example of an adventurer (In otherwords she is a more traditional point and click hero). Where they are similar however is more subtle and that I developed more when I thought of creating a stand alone game about her since out of the two she has the more interesting backstory.

Yet creating a husband and wife duo where they are there to play up different traits... Is also a steriotype in it of itself.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 09, 2012, 04:24:24 PM
Quote
So... yeah, just make the character you want to make and screw all else, because as long as you're a guy writing a female a character, there's a good chance either be accused of being sexist, pandering or writing a bland character because this seems to be hot topic these past couple of years

It is so hard to do because I made her after I made my perfect male lead. Thus she cannot step on his heels.

Thus I ended up making a nearly mute hands on woman who was only child to a family of farmers who is psychologically mute (She cannot speak because of an insudent), being the more practical and dirrect of the two. Admittingly she isn't a damsel, but these traits can just as easily be seen as sexist. In fact one of the reasons she cannot speak was specifically because the male lead does almost nothing but talk and I wanted to make her gameplay be done with no speach whatsoever.

I created her with the intent that she would give a different style then her husband who was created before I even had the intent of a wife, but chose to have one as a way to style a series of games. So while the Male lead of the first game would talk a lot and be very scholarly with his solutions involving thinking out solutions. She would be more about using her wits and abilities and being more of a much more pure example of an adventurer (In otherwords she is a more traditional point and click hero). Where they are similar however is more subtle and that I developed more when I thought of creating a stand alone game about her since out of the two she has the more interesting backstory.

Yet creating a husband and wife duo where they are there to play up different traits... Is also a steriotype in it of itself.
I'm afraid I can't really help you, as I said, just try to make the character you want to make without worrying what other people will think.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 09, 2012, 04:28:18 PM
The solution is really just to make no female characters if you are male and one of the main characters is male.

Since I cannot really take the stigma surrounding female characters.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on December 09, 2012, 04:33:48 PM
I agree with Katie.

Quote
And know that there is no way to please all the people all of the time. But you can certainly try to not offend them at the very least.

I think you can go ever further than that. You are probably going to fail at pleasing everyone no matter what you do, but as long as the character is solid as an actual character, your story will be a lot better for it. And that's all you can do, really.

Neonivek: I like the idea of this duo who have complimentary abilities, but I do think you should be careful about how you present the wife. A deaf woman could easily slip into the centuries-long stereotype of the helpless/useless woman. But as long as you make her active, and ideally have her solve problems with her hands that her husband can't solve with his brain, and as long as you show that she is impacted by but finds some way to deal with her handicap, I think it's fine.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 09, 2012, 04:45:13 PM
Both characters--Ripley and Salt--then had adjustments made to them when they became female characters. Interestingly, Salt was going to have a child when a male, but they took that out when the role became female. And in subsequent movies, Ripley's gender played into creating a maternal side to her character, but it was by no means a traditional one.

My point was don't pretend gender doesn't exist, but don't make it the sole trait.

Neonivek--it sounds like you could have an interesting pair of characters there. I don't agree that the "only" solution is to never write a female character, either. Just treat her as a person the same you do your male character--she's a unique individual. She's going to have a personality, opinions, take actions, agree and also disagree with other people, her husband included. With a backstory like the one you've given her, there could be a lot of interesting development there.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 09, 2012, 08:14:00 PM
Making a female character isn't hard.  Just use the flowchart.

http://www.overthinkingit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Overthinking-It-Female-Character-Flowchart.png
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on December 10, 2012, 06:02:04 AM
So thus there is no way to potray a woman except to make her bland and uninteresting. Congradulations.
I think you misunderstand sexism. See, the very problem here is that you are trying to write someone who is primarily a woman and not primarily a person and that is sexist because you're then treating/writing her differently than you would someone who had the same attributes and were male. Her gender should not be the most defining characteristic she has. If you were trying to describe her to someone, would you really start by telling people that she's a woman? If so, she probably doesn't have much of a personality. There are many generic, stereotypical characters who have personalities, wants, needs and think about things that affect them and comment on them accordingly. These, even if they are stereotypes that have been overdone to death, are not considered to be sexist. Forget about gender and just try to write people.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 06:43:46 AM
If you were trying to describe her to someone, would you really start by telling people that she's a woman?

LOL...Yes, of course.

If someone broke into my house, and I came home and saw them running off, their gender would absolutely be the first thing I told the police in the description.

"It was dark, officer, but I could tell that the perpetrator was tall, had auburn hair, walked with a limp, wore an eye patch, had full lips and ample breasts, and oh yeah, it was a guy."
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Say on December 10, 2012, 07:15:37 AM
We're talking about character design here, not police work - or anything else related for that matter. But it's amusing how everyone goes to whatever corner to scratch for reasons to justify a point.

Example:
-Who is Linda?
-She's a woman.
-She's an elementary school teacher.
-She's a wonderful friend.

For some, which I believe what Deloria was trying to say, the fact that the character depth goes as far as saying just the word "woman" for a woman means is pretty poor design, stupid and goes along the lines of whatever the OP topic goes on about.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 07:56:02 AM
We're talking about character design here, not police work - or anything else related for that matter. But it's amusing how everyone goes to whatever corner to scratch for reasons to justify a point.

Example:
-Who is Linda?
-She's a woman.
-She's an elementary school teacher.
-She's a wonderful friend.

For some, which I believe what Deloria was trying to say, the fact that the character depth goes as far as saying just the word "woman" for a woman means is pretty poor design, stupid and goes along the lines of whatever the OP topic goes on about.


In your example, it's clear that the character is a woman simply because of the non-gender-ambiguous name "Linda."  What if the character's name was Chris or something else similar?  Would it not be prudent to let the reader or viewer know that the character is a woman when she is introduced?  Would that still be sexist?

This discussion reminds me of those people who are afraid to mention a person's skin color in a verbal description.  It's clearly an important detail in terms of recognizing the person (oftentimes the easiest way to recognize them), and yet for some reason, people are terrified to be seen as saying anything that might be taboo.  It's silly.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 10, 2012, 08:32:31 AM
Absolutely.  A person's gender is an important identifying feature.  Not mentioning it is absolutely silly.  Unless it is MEANT to be ambiguous, as in the case of "Samus Aran" - a character who's features when she's first met are covered by a suit and mask - it's asinine to think a person cannot be initially described by their sex.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 10, 2012, 08:38:49 AM
I think Say's point (and Deloria's) was that the definitions shouldn't just stop at "woman"--there are more important features to a character beyond that.


EDIT: Not entirely on-topic, but related, I just read this very amusing (and curse word-laden) reponse (http://fuckyeahscifiwomenofcolour.tumblr.com/post/37413846476/author-scott-lynch-responds-to-a-critic-of-the) of an author to a critic about a female pirate in a story of his. :)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 09:24:49 AM
EDIT: Not entirely on-topic, but related, I just read this very amusing (and curse word-laden) reponse (http://fuckyeahscifiwomenofcolour.tumblr.com/post/37413846476/author-scott-lynch-responds-to-a-critic-of-the) of an author to a critic about a female pirate in a story of his. :)

That's definitely amusing, but the writer's argument is somewhat silly.  He is constructing a nice big strawman in order to accuse the critic of bigotry, when in fact, the critic's only real problem was stupidity/naivety.  The critic to whom he is responding never said anything that would warrant the holier-than-thou diatribe that the author unleashes on him.  The critic's arguments are flawed, yes, but flawed because the guy is being needlessly pedantic about the supposed historical accuracy of a fictional fantasy story, NOT because the guy is a bigot.  Frankly, I think Scott Lynch comes off as more of a dick than the critic does.  He's using the classic argument strategy wherein if you say something loud enough and with enough bombast, your listener/reader overlooks the clear flaws in your logic.  Lol
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on December 10, 2012, 09:44:45 AM
Absolutely.  A person's gender is an important identifying feature.  Not mentioning it is absolutely silly.  Unless it is MEANT to be ambiguous, as in the case of "Samus Aran" - a character who's features when she's first met are covered by a suit and mask - it's asinine to think a person cannot be initially described by their sex.


Bt
Gender is not binary. Whether the person in question is genetically female clarifies absolutely nothing because it doesn't mean the character identifies as female, which is arguably more important when it comes to character design. You shouldn't tell people "She's a woman", you should tell people "She identifies as a woman/a modern female/a female with a traditional/patriarchal gender role, and therefore has issues with these things in society." Creating complex characters means you have to deal with the question of what kind of person they are or want to be and whether that is compatible with the world they live in.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 10:34:01 AM
Yes, but you would still say "she's a woman."  Her physical gender would still be an integral part of describing the character to the reader.  You may argue that it's just a superficial thing and what matters is who she is on the inside, but the simple fact of the matter is that part of good writing is creating a mental picture for the reader, and you cannot accurately do that if the reader is picturing a dark-haired guy with a top hat and mustache when the character you're talking about is actually blond woman who just happens to identify with a 19th Century dandy.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on December 10, 2012, 10:51:45 AM
Yes, of course you would. But I'm trying to point out that characters are more than their gender and need personality. If you're going to explore gender issues, explore how their gender makes them interact with the world they live in. If you're not going to focus on gender issues or something specifically relevant to their gender, I think characters should be written largely sexless at first and then modified later to fit the plot; this forces you to deal with them as characters and not as objects. As someone earlier pointed out, it's really easy to replace Princess Peach with a magical item.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 10:54:58 AM
Yes, of course you would. But I'm trying to point out that characters are more than their gender and need personality. If you're going to explore gender issues, explore how their gender makes them interact with the world they live in. If you're not going to focus on gender issues or something specifically relevant to their gender, I think characters should be written largely sexless at first and then modified later to fit the plot; this forces you to deal with them as characters and not as objects. As someone earlier pointed out, it's really easy to replace Princess Peach with a magical item.

I can agree with this.  Though I would say that a good writer shouldn't HAVE to write their characters as sexless first, and then adapt them.  ;)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 10, 2012, 11:02:59 AM
The Lego thing--I think that actually IS exactly her point. Legos ARE a genderless product, and that's a great thing about them. So why do they need to be gendered at all? And then the fact that the "girl" Legos were all pink and emphasized a lot of stereotypes just added to the problem.

Why not? I mean it's not like they're forcing you to buy them, why wouldn't you want the extra option?
I didn't read the whole thread (sorry) because I stopped cold at this.

.......why would you want that option? If you acknowledge there is a problem with gender-stereotypes in this country and especially in the gaming sector of the entertainment industry (and for my purposes here, I'm including all toys including LEGOs in that sector) why would you not see a problem here?

Are there any pink LEGOs in the toys that are marketed at boys? Does the color pink appear at all? No. Why is that a problem?

Because this is a real, new product:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZUplp-p3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
That is a pen. For women. Because apparently, this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51luxjXmKGL._SX300_.jpg)
is an inappropriate product for a woman to use.

Those are grown up products. What makes them think that they can market with so much obvious sexism, based purely on colors, to adults?
Because it works perfectly on children.
And you want to know something else? Those pens for girls.... are twice as expensive. Because they come in pink and purple.

And how about the fact that lower weight weights -- one and two pound weights? They only come in pink and purple. Funny, because I've never seen a fifty pound weight in those colors. Have you?

Want another example?
How about cars? Oh yeah. Cars.
(http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/xx_factor/2012/11/02/121102_DX_shes_pink_f.jpg.CROP.rectangle3-large.jpg)
That's the Honda Fit She's (the apostrophe is actually a heart on the car too). It comes in brown too but they call it "eyeliner brown".... because why would a woman want a car that wasn't either pink, or the same colors she's painting on her face? (Y'all women-folk ARE painting your faces before you go in public, aren't you?!?! For shame if you aren't! Nobody wants to see your real skin, only men are allowed to have real skin!) Supposedly, the windshield helps prevent wrinkles and the climate control system is good for the skin -- these are literally, actually, the qualities they advertise for this car.
And guess what? It is more expensive than the Honda Fit.

There's even a Fujitsu laptop now called the "Floral Kiss" which comes in colors like "Feminine Pink". It looks like this:
(http://www.glamfull.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/fujitsu-floral-kiss.jpg)
Mmhmm. I can see why that's easier for a woman to deal with than... well, this:
(http://www.fujitsu.com/fts/Images/W-DK28253_tcm21-157341.png)
Guess which laptop is more expensive? Even though they're the same thing? And I mean that literally -- the only difference between the Floral Kiss and the Fujitsu Ultrabook is the colors. (Oh, and apparently, you can open the Floral Kiss without chipping your manicure!)

You're probably appalled by this. Because you're an adult and you're intelligent and you're aware that women can drive cars that aren't pink. And yet, you think there's no problem with doing literally the exact same thing with toys for children?
(Note: none of this is rare, these are just the ones Ellen Degeneres has made the most fun of. This is present in every corner of marketing.)

Anyways, I'm going to keep reading and probably weigh in some more in a bit.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on December 10, 2012, 11:11:36 AM
Cray, that post was awesome. And horrible. But mostly awesome.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 10, 2012, 11:17:50 AM
Also of note for amusement purposes, the user reviews (http://www.amazon.com/BIC-Cristal-1-0mm-Black-MSLP101-Blk/dp/B004F9QBCS) for the Bic for Her pen are hilarious. :)

A while back, I was looking up what items are standard in a roadside emergency kit. I came across this "Safety Girl Kit (http://www.safetygirl.com/safety-girl-kit-original.html)" which included...well, I'll just list the items:

Quote
This Kit Contains:

1 Emergency blanket
1 Twelve hour safety lightstick
2 Tampax Tampons
1 Safety Girl Band-aids
1 Sewing kit
1 Dove deodorant
1 Shout wipe
1 Lens cleaning cloth
1 Bottle of water
1 Drawstring Plastic Bags
1 Wrigleys Spearmint Gum
1 Nail file
1 Safety Girl® pencil
1 Safety Girl 3-in-1 Brush
1 Cadbury Chocolate
1 Emergency contact card
1 Accident record card
Directions on how to change a flat tire and jumpstart a dead battery.

You know, for girls!

Nothing about that kit helps in a roadside emergency. Maybe 5 items are actually helpful, but do not make up a roadside emergency kit. Now, the site does also have a roadside emergency tool kit (http://www.safetygirl.com/womens-emergency-roadside-kit.html) with items that are actually going to be HELPFUL in a roadside emergency, but the fact they've got the first item and call it an "emergency kit" is just ridiculous. It's a "look pretty and smell nice for when someone comes to rescue you" kit.

Overall, yeah, there are items that just do not need to be gendered, and when they are its pretty much always offensive.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 11:29:03 AM
The Lego thing--I think that actually IS exactly her point. Legos ARE a genderless product, and that's a great thing about them. So why do they need to be gendered at all? And then the fact that the "girl" Legos were all pink and emphasized a lot of stereotypes just added to the problem.

Why not? I mean it's not like they're forcing you to buy them, why wouldn't you want the extra option?
I didn't read the whole thread (sorry) because I stopped cold at this.

.......why would you want that option? If you acknowledge there is a problem with gender-stereotypes in this country and especially in the gaming sector of the entertainment industry (and for my purposes here, I'm including all toys including LEGOs in that sector) why would you not see a problem here?

Are there any pink LEGOs in the toys that are marketed at boys? Does the color pink appear at all? No. Why is that a problem?

Because this is a real, new product:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZUplp-p3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
That is a pen. For women. Because apparently, this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51luxjXmKGL._SX300_.jpg)
is an inappropriate product for a woman to use.

Those are grown up products. What makes them think that they can market with so much obvious sexism, based purely on colors, to adults?
Because it works perfectly on children.
And you want to know something else? Those pens for girls.... are twice as expensive. Because they come in pink and purple.

And how about the fact that lower weight weights -- one and two pound weights? They only come in pink and purple. Funny, because I've never seen a fifty pound weight in those colors. Have you?

Want another example?
How about cars? Oh yeah. Cars.
(http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/xx_factor/2012/11/02/121102_DX_shes_pink_f.jpg.CROP.rectangle3-large.jpg)
That's the Honda Fit She's (the apostrophe is actually a heart on the car too). It comes in brown too but they call it "eyeliner brown".... because why would a woman want a car that wasn't either pink, or the same colors she's painting on her face? (Y'all women-folk ARE painting your faces before you go in public, aren't you?!?! For shame if you aren't! Nobody wants to see your real skin, only men are allowed to have real skin!) Supposedly, the windshield helps prevent wrinkles and the climate control system is good for the skin -- these are literally, actually, the qualities they advertise for this car.
And guess what? It is more expensive than the Honda Fit.

There's even a Fujitsu laptop now called the "Floral Kiss" which comes in colors like "Feminine Pink". It looks like this:
(http://www.glamfull.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/fujitsu-floral-kiss.jpg)
Mmhmm. I can see why that's easier for a woman to deal with than... well, this:
(http://www.fujitsu.com/fts/Images/W-DK28253_tcm21-157341.png)
Guess which laptop is more expensive? Even though they're the same thing? And I mean that literally -- the only difference between the Floral Kiss and the Fujitsu Ultrabook is the colors. (Oh, and apparently, you can open the Floral Kiss without chipping your manicure!)

You're probably appalled by this. Because you're an adult and you're intelligent and you're aware that women can drive cars that aren't pink. And yet, you think there's no problem with doing literally the exact same thing with toys for children?
(Note: none of this is rare, these are just the ones Ellen Degeneres has made the most fun of. This is present in every corner of marketing.)

Anyways, I'm going to keep reading and probably weigh in some more in a bit.
and yet those products exist because they sell

so again: why does their existence bother you so much? Nobody is forcing you to get them, but if they do exist then it's because there is a market for it
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 10, 2012, 11:36:03 AM
Honestly, I feel like a number of us have made it clear why the products (and tropes, stereotypes, etc) bother us, regardless of 'do they sell?' (which isn't the question at hand). I'm not sure what else can be said to make that more clear or to explain it further.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 10, 2012, 11:39:39 AM
Good point.  No one's forcing you to get those items, but there obviously is a market for it.  Yeah, they bother you - but you aren't buying them.  A lot of products bother me, but I'm not buying them.  Of course, I think no one should buy them, but that's my opinion and if I wanna force that on the world, I'm just a dictator.

The pens are redonk, though.  I tried using one once, and it lept out of my hands as I tried to grasp it, and it ran across the floor crying "MAN HANDS!  MAN HANDS!"

As for the "girl" emergency kit - yeah.  Funny, though.  I know several women to whom that kit would be more helpful than one that would contain any tools to help repair a car.  If a person wants to wait to get rescued, they can do it - if they want to try and fix it themselves and go about their day, they can.  You just have to be a secure man to admit you want "The Girls" emergency kit, is all.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 11:43:43 AM
Honestly, I feel like a number of us have made it clear why the products (and tropes, stereotypes, etc) bother us, regardless of 'do they sell?' (which isn't the question at hand). I'm not sure what else can be said to make that more clear or to explain it further.

See, but this is what I don't understand.

Are these products mainly targetted at women? yes
Do these products sell?                                       Yes
Are these products mainly  bought by women?  I think it's safe to assume that 'yes' is the right answer

... So, if women buy it and most likely enjoy it... how is this offensive to women again? To me, the sexist argument of these products boils down to: 'Stop liking things I don't like'



(Posted on: December 10, 2012, 02:40:06 PM)


Good point.  No one's forcing you to get those items, but there obviously is a market for it.  Yeah, they bother you - but you aren't buying them.  A lot of products bother me, but I'm not buying them.  Of course, I think no one should buy them, but that's my opinion and if I wanna force that on the world, I'm just a dictator.

The pens are redonk, though.  I tried using one once, and it lept out of my hands as I tried to grasp it, and it ran across the floor crying "MAN HANDS!  MAN HANDS!"

As for the "girl" emergency kit - yeah.  Funny, though.  I know several women to whom that kit would be more helpful than one that would contain any tools to help repair a car.  If a person wants to wait to get rescued, they can do it - if they want to try and fix it themselves and go about their day, they can.  You just have to be a secure man to admit you want "The Girls" emergency kit, is all.


Bt

exactly, people use and buy those products because they like it. Why should we judge them or the products?The Only thing we should judge is the marketing team for calling it a product 'for girls', but as you as you said, it's not like a man couldn't go to the store and buy it anyway... so I really don't see the issue here

I would go as far as to say: If you consider these products offensive, then say they are offensive to you, not to women.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 10, 2012, 11:59:38 AM
Anita goes into this topic exactly in her Lego videos, but those have been linked, so I'll link instead to one of the sources she gives on her blog who can perhaps explain this better than I.

"Should the World of Toys Be Gender-Free?" (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/30/opinion/does-stripping-gender-from-toys-really-make-sense.html?_r=2&src=tp)

Quote
At issue, then, is not nature or nurture but how nurture becomes nature: the environment in which children play and grow can encourage a range of aptitudes or foreclose them. So blithely indulging — let alone exploiting — stereotypically gendered play patterns may have a more negative long-term impact on kids’ potential than parents imagine. And promoting, without forcing, cross-sex friendships as well as a breadth of play styles may be more beneficial. There is even evidence that children who have opposite-sex friendships during their early years have healthier romantic relationships as teenagers.

(This being but one quote that gets into the topic in the article)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 10, 2012, 12:03:18 PM
and yet those products exist because they sell

so again: why does their existence bother you so much? Nobody is forcing you to get them, but if they do exist then it's because there is a market for it
Are you serious, Stika?
Did you miss the part where each and every one of those products is roughly twice as expensive versus it's "male" counterpart? Because it is pink and because it is marketed to females.

If that doesn't strike you as sexist, I'm going to give you a newsflash: you are being blinded by your own privilege. Take. The. Blinders. Off.

Now, on to other reasons why it's sexist to market something exclusively to girls and something else exclusively to boys:
-what happens if a boy likes the girl product?
-what happens if a girl likes the boy product?
If you answered "nothing", congratulations, you've built an impenetrable bubble for yourself. If you answered, "ridicule, even in adulthood", congratulations, you're paying attention. But not quite enough attention.

Let me tell you a short, true story about someone named Willie Houston. Willie's fiance asked him to hold her purse while she entered a restroom. At about the same time, his blind friend, Melvin, asked if he could be escorted to the men's restroom. Willie obliged.
And for this, Willie was shot dead at point blank range by someone who thought he was too effeminate to be a real man.

Now, imagine for a moment: you're a man, and you would like to drive a pink car. What do you think happens to you? I'm not saying you'll get shot for it -- but I guarantee, guarantee your car will get keyed within a week of owning it. Tires will probably end up slashed. Did I mention the general ridicule?

The products aren't the problem, stika. The marketing is what's sexist.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 10, 2012, 12:06:19 PM
http://www.buzzfeed.com/hillaryreinsberg/steakhouse-offers-womens-cuts-of-beef

Ah, Brazil!


Sure, the marketing is sexist - but they're selling the stuff.  Ladies LOVE it.

Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 10, 2012, 12:07:44 PM
I also want to add that this is obviously a topic that can get heated and divisive and, obviously, can be offensive to some people (even while others think it may not be). So for one and all, take this gentle reminder to be respectful in the discourse here.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 12:10:53 PM
Anita goes into this topic exactly in her Lego videos, but those have been linked, so I'll link instead to one of the sources she gives on her blog who can perhaps explain this better than I.

"Should the World of Toys Be Gender-Free?" (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/30/opinion/does-stripping-gender-from-toys-really-make-sense.html?_r=2&src=tp)

Quote
At issue, then, is not nature or nurture but how nurture becomes nature: the environment in which children play and grow can encourage a range of aptitudes or foreclose them. So blithely indulging — let alone exploiting — stereotypically gendered play patterns may have a more negative long-term impact on kids’ potential than parents imagine. And promoting, without forcing, cross-sex friendships as well as a breadth of play styles may be more beneficial. There is even evidence that children who have opposite-sex friendships during their early years have healthier romantic relationships as teenagers.



I think the problem with these sort of studies is the lack of certainty.
As for your link's main question: No, I don't think toys should be gender free, I think there should be gender toys, but I also think both kids and parents should have the right to choose what sort of toys they want to give to their children


Are you serious, Stika?
Did you miss the part where each and every one of those products is roughly twice as expensive versus it's "male" counterpart? Because it is pink and because it is marketed to females.

what about it?

If that doesn't strike you as sexist, I'm going to give you a newsflash: you are being blinded by your own privilege. Take. The. Blinders. Off.

Cute


Now, on to other reasons why it's sexist to market something exclusively to girls and something else exclusively to boys:
-what happens if a boy likes the girl product?
He buys it, what else?

-what happens if a girl likes the boy product?
She buys it, what else?




If you answered "nothing", congratulations, you've built an impenetrable bubble for yourself. If you answered, "ridicule, even in adulthood", congratulations, you're paying attention. But not quite enough attention.

really? I had male friends who had barbies, we didn't ridicule them.
My girlfriend practically grew up with 'boys' toys, she never told me anything about being ridiculed about it, in fact, guys thought she was awesome because she played DnD and because she loved games like Half-life

Maybe you're the blind one?



Let me tell you a short, true story about someone named Willie Houston. Willie's fiance asked him to hold her purse while she entered a restroom. At about the same time, his blind friend, Melvin, asked if he could be escorted to the men's restroom. Willie obliged.
And for this, Willie was shot dead at point blank range by someone who thought he was too effeminate to be a real man.

Now, imagine for a moment: you're a man, and you would like to drive a pink car. What do you think happens to you? I'm not saying you'll get shot for it -- but I guarantee, guarantee your car will get keyed within a week of owning it. Tires will probably end up slashed. Did I mention the general ridicule?

The products aren't the problem, stika. The marketing is what's sexist.

First example: I blame the guy who killed him, not the produacts or the marketing
Second example: what evidence do you have to support this? just a few years ago pink polo shirts were all the rage with men in my country, I didn't hear about anyone getting shanked for it
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 10, 2012, 12:13:30 PM
True.  I know a lot of dudes who rock the pink polo shirts, with the collars "popped".

They're douchebags, yeah, but it's a popular "dude" thing, nonetheless, and no-one's calling these guys "sissies" or "ladies" for it.  They're just calling them douchebags, because they're generally useless, greasy doosh*-y dudes.


Bt

* originally bowdlerized by the forum filter.  Changed to reflect that, because having "d*****" in a sentence looks stupid.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 12:13:56 PM
True.  I know a lot of dudes who rock the pink polo shirts, with the collars "popped".

They're douchebags, yeah, but it's a popular "dude" thing, nonetheless, and no-one's calling these guys "sissies" or "ladies" for it.  They're just calling them douchebags, because they're generally useless, greasy d*****-y dudes.


Bt
Bingo
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on December 10, 2012, 12:24:58 PM
It does perhaps bear mentioning that Portugal likely does not have the same social problems or issues as a result of a hugely culturally and politically diverging population that much of the US is currently dealing with.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 10, 2012, 12:25:32 PM
Alright, I'mma try to be respectful but especially on this issue it's a little difficult for me.

So, let's see.
Your evidence is that you, personally, did not mock someone who had a Barbie as a child.
My evidence, aside from my personal experience, is a huge variety of news stories because I make a concerted effort to pay attention to human rights news.

I'm not saying, let's not charge the advertisers with Willie's murder. I'm saying, we have a society that is so engrained with misogyny that people literally die because of it. This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrwnJGCK80A), for example, is only *some* of the people who died in 2011 and early 2012 because of the blatant misogyny of our society. And these are just people who died -- did you know in the same span of time, eight people were set on fire while alive for being gay or transgender?

Whether or not you personally buy into the stereotypes being shoved at us by advertisers in these examples, some people do. Enough people that, obviously, it's a serious problem. Any guy perceived as "effeminate" is bullied, at best -- even in adulthood. And while obviously people are responsible for their own actions, advertising that says "boys like this and girls like this" keeps that engrained in us.

Instead of having the "Floral Kiss" you could just add pink and white and brown to the colors the Ultrabook is available in. Instead of the Honda Fit She's (with a heart, not an apostrophe), they could just make the Honda Fit available in more colors. Instead of the "Bic for Her" they could just have a package with pink and purple pens and call it "Bic: Pink and Purple". That's not sexist -- and I can almost guarantee, the people who would buy them would probably be women primarily simply because of the sexism in our culture already. But at least it wouldn't be being contributed to.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Say on December 10, 2012, 12:26:21 PM
In your example, it's clear that the character is a woman simply because of the non-gender-ambiguous name "Linda."  What if the character's name was Chris or something else similar?  Would it not be prudent to let the reader or viewer know that the character is a woman when she is introduced?  Would that still be sexist?

If you must use "she" you automatically know the gender. And as someone with a name that nobody in any country I have ever been (4 so far), can EVER say correctly, just by looking at me they identify me as female. That is absolutely not a problem. So it doesn't even apply to real life.

When I've worked online, it has happened around 80% of the time with anyone that has met me that way, they call me Mister / Sir, and it happens only with english, because you've got no male/female words in a first person speech. But when someone else introduces me, there is absolutely no need to explain that "she" is "female", therefore there is absolutely no point or relevance in that whatsoever either.

I work in business and I think having a pool of 10k users and 100 employees on my team all over the country, sort of gives me confidence to say It has never been an issue in real life, either the states or other countries I've been.

This discussion reminds me of those people who are afraid to mention a person's skin color in a verbal description.  It's clearly an important detail in terms of recognizing the person (oftentimes the easiest way to recognize them), and yet for some reason, people are terrified to be seen as saying anything that might be taboo.  It's silly.

I can say Lambonius is a guy at POS forums. That is the most vague way to recognize you at all. Yet, if you say in person "He's the guy standing over there" that's not sexist, and it's crazy you'd even think it would be. Also, it's not a character description, that isn't even relevant to who you are.

"Lambonious. The guy standing over there"

This is just not as useful in most of everyday situations.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 10, 2012, 12:26:31 PM
True.  I know a lot of dudes who rock the pink polo shirts, with the collars "popped".

They're douchebags, yeah, but it's a popular "dude" thing, nonetheless, and no-one's calling these guys "sissies" or "ladies" for it.  They're just calling them douchebags, because they're generally useless, greasy doosh*-y dudes.


Bt

* originally bowdlerized by the forum filter.  Changed to reflect that, because having "d*****" in a sentence looks stupid.
But let me ask you this: who were those pink polos marketed at? Guys or gals?

Guys.

And so, again, I say the problem is not the product. The problem is the marketing.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 12:30:07 PM
It does perhaps bear mentioning that Portugal likely does not have the same social problems or issues as a result of a hugely culturally and politically diverging population that much of the US is currently dealing with.

I'm afraid that's something I can't comment on.

As far as society in the US goes, I only know what the media (movies, TV, newscasts, etc.)

If I were to take everything at face value, I would likely end up with a  misrepresentation of what's it like to being American.


But let me ask you this: who were those pink polos marketed at? Guys or gals?

Guys.

And so, again, I say the problem is not the product. The problem is the marketing.
In this regard we agree, the marketing is the problem and if you were to call the marketing for the products you posted (the pink laptop, pen and whatnot) sexist, I would wholeheartedly agree with you
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Say on December 10, 2012, 12:30:46 PM

* originally bowdlerized by the forum filter.  Changed to reflect that, because having "d*****" in a sentence looks stupid.


Maybe there's a reason why it's filtered, I believe 'douchebags' is still just as strong and offensive. I can understand you may disagree with the whole trend, however that doesn't give you the right to put it down just because you wouldn't buy it or use it.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 10, 2012, 12:33:14 PM

* originally bowdlerized by the forum filter.  Changed to reflect that, because having "d*****" in a sentence looks stupid.


Maybe there's a reason why it's filtered, I believe 'douchebags' is still just as strong and offensive. I can understand you may disagree with the whole trend, however that doesn't give you the right to put it down just because you wouldn't buy it or use it.

It has nothing to do with the shirt.  It has to do with the douchebags who wear them.  They could be wearing fuzzy hand-crocheted turtle sweaters.  They're still douchebags who happen to be wearing pink polos with collars popped.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 10, 2012, 12:34:19 PM
If I were to take everything at face value, I would likely end up with a  misrepresentation of what's it like to being American.

That's exactly what we're saying happens with this 'for girls' marketing. Just take that sentence there and switch the word "American" for "woman."
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 12:35:38 PM
Alright, I'mma try to be respectful but especially on this issue it's a little difficult for me.

So, let's see.
Your evidence is that you, personally, did not mock someone who had a Barbie as a child.
My evidence, aside from my personal experience, is a huge variety of news stories because I make a concerted effort to pay attention to human rights news.

I'm not saying, let's not charge the advertisers with Willie's murder. I'm saying, we have a society that is so engrained with misogyny that people literally die because of it. This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrwnJGCK80A), for example, is only *some* of the people who died in 2011 and early 2012 because of the blatant misogyny of our society. And these are just people who died -- did you know in the same span of time, eight people were set on fire while alive for being gay or transgender?

Whether or not you personally buy into the stereotypes being shoved at us by advertisers in these examples, some people do. Enough people that, obviously, it's a serious problem. Any guy perceived as "effeminate" is bullied, at best -- even in adulthood. And while obviously people are responsible for their own actions, advertising that says "boys like this and girls like this" keeps that engrained in us.

Instead of having the "Floral Kiss" you could just add pink and white and brown to the colors the Ultrabook is available in. Instead of the Honda Fit She's (with a heart, not an apostrophe), they could just make the Honda Fit available in more colors. Instead of the "Bic for Her" they could just have a package with pink and purple pens and call it "Bic: Pink and Purple". That's not sexist -- and I can almost guarantee, the people who would buy them would probably be women primarily simply because of the sexism in our culture already. But at least it wouldn't be being contributed to.
See, here's the thing. I'm not going to pretend that the world isn't sexist or racist, obviously it is and I am sad that this sort of thing can happen.

And, I do believe that the marketing for these products needs to be addressed as more often then not it turns out to be sexist, but I don't believe we should say... make all children's toys gender neutral, I also don't believe we should stop selling that pink mostly useless roadkit.

The moment you start taking away products in the name of gender equality, it'll most likely lead to resentment from those who enjoyed said products.

If my parents suddenly stopped buying me Batman toys (I was a huge batman as a kid... hell I still am) and instead only bought me gender neutral toys, chances are I'd end up resenting them... heck I'd might have even ended up blaming girls.

One last point: charging extra for a pink colored pen, honestly, if that is the color that sells the most and if I were the CEO of the pen company, I'd probably do the same, that's just smart business, I wouldn't call it sexy (though again, the same can't be said for the marketing)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 10, 2012, 12:36:03 PM
In this regard we agree, the marketing is the problem and if you were to call the marketing for the products you posted (the pink laptop, pen and whatnot) sexist, I would wholeheartedly agree with you
......that IS what I said, stika. I have not, at any point, been trying to say a product is sexist. I've only been saying the marketing is.

Having a pink hair salon LEGO set is not sexist. Advertising it as a set "for girls" is.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 12:37:11 PM
If I were to take everything at face value, I would likely end up with a  misrepresentation of what's it like to being American.

That's exactly what we're saying happens with this 'for girls' marketing. Just take that sentence there and switch the word "American" for "woman."

there's a difference though, I see and meet women everyday and most people have lived with at least one woman in their lives be it their mothers, wives, sisters, grandmothers, etc.

As a Portuguese citizen I only 'meet' Americans when talking to them on the forums, which is hardly the same
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 10, 2012, 12:37:37 PM
Why can't women have products marketed to them?  Men do.  And though I'm not your typical meathead, sports jock dude - I don't find the beer commercials that cater to the more lunk-ish members of my gender to be offensive.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 12:39:56 PM
In this regard we agree, the marketing is the problem and if you were to call the marketing for the products you posted (the pink laptop, pen and whatnot) sexist, I would wholeheartedly agree with you
......that IS what I said, stika. I have not, at any point, been trying to say a product is sexist. I've only been saying the marketing is.

Having a pink hair salon LEGO set is not sexist. Advertising it as a set "for girls" is.
*facepalms*

my bad, man, I misunderstood your original point

(Posted on: December 10, 2012, 03:37:47 PM)


Why can't women have products marketed to them?  Men do.  And though I'm not your typical meathead, sports jock dude - I don't find the beer commercials that cater to the more lunk-ish members of my gender to be offensive.


Bt

I don't think anyone said that women shouldn't have products advertised to them, in regards to your beer example, I would use the advertisements women's magazines sometimes use, which sometimes work like reverse-beer comercials, lol
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 10, 2012, 12:54:02 PM
Why can't women have products marketed to them?  Men do.  And though I'm not your typical meathead, sports jock dude - I don't find the beer commercials that cater to the more lunk-ish members of my gender to be offensive.
Well, there's a couple of differences.
1) Most beer commercials entail perfectly average men and utterly gorgeous completely objectified women. You wouldn't be offended. It fits in with the patriarchal misogyny of our culture perfectly. "With this product, even the most average of men can attract the highest grade of female flesh!" :P Or how about the commercials where a guy chooses the beer over his girlfriend? Not offensive to guys, no. What's offensive here is that there's not any beer ads targeted at women. What's offensive here is that only light beer ads are ever targeted at women. Similarly, ads targeted for women probably aren't offensive to women -- what is offensive is when there is no advertising whatsoever that is for the opposite gender as well.
(And I don't mean to put it into a gender binary there, but if we can all be honest about the advertising business.... there's not enough people, at least at present, who don't fit into the gender binary to make a viable advertising demographic. Sad but true.)

2) Beer commercials are set more by the demographic -- which is because beer has been around for roughly an eternity. Not that women don't drink beer, but by their marketing research, most beer is bought by men. Simiarly, tampon commercials will not ever market towards men because men don't buy tampons (except, y'know, when they're being extra nice to a female significant other.) Whereas, market research likely shows that pens are bought by people of all genders. Because, y'know, everyone is allowed to write things down in this day and age. Creating a pink and purple pen and labeling it "For Her" is doing the opposite -- they've created the demographic by targeting the marketing at women specifically. For no real reason. And then they charge more for it, because it's for girls!
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 01:18:54 PM
Why can't women have products marketed to them?  Men do.  And though I'm not your typical meathead, sports jock dude - I don't find the beer commercials that cater to the more lunk-ish members of my gender to be offensive.
Well, there's a couple of differences.
1) Most beer commercials entail perfectly average men and utterly gorgeous completely objectified women. You wouldn't be offended. It fits in with the patriarchal misogyny of our culture perfectly. "With this product, even the most average of men can attract the highest grade of female flesh!" :P Or how about the commercials where a guy chooses the beer over his girlfriend? Not offensive to guys, no. What's offensive here is that there's not any beer ads targeted at women. What's offensive here is that only light beer ads are ever targeted at women. Similarly, ads targeted for women probably aren't offensive to women -- what is offensive is when there is no advertising whatsoever that is for the opposite gender as well.
(And I don't mean to put it into a gender binary there, but if we can all be honest about the advertising business.... there's not enough people, at least at present, who don't fit into the gender binary to make a viable advertising demographic. Sad but true.)

2) Beer commercials are set more by the demographic -- which is because beer has been around for roughly an eternity. Not that women don't drink beer, but by their marketing research, most beer is bought by men. Simiarly, tampon commercials will not ever market towards men because men don't buy tampons (except, y'know, when they're being extra nice to a female significant other.) Whereas, market research likely shows that pens are bought by people of all genders. Because, y'know, everyone is allowed to write things down in this day and age. Creating a pink and purple pen and labeling it "For Her" is doing the opposite -- they've created the demographic by targeting the marketing at women specifically. For no real reason. And then they charge more for it, because it's for girls!

I'm sorry to say this, but everytime I hear these words uttered, I can't help but cringe.

All it does is make it sound like there's this huge government conspiracy which states that women should never be anything more then housewives and that it is being carried out by a slew of agents named Smith.

To me, the use of the term 'patriarchal/mysoginist society'  is the best way to get me to antagonize with said feminist.

Moreover, it carries an undertone which makes it sound like men are inherently evil or women are inherently pure
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 01:24:09 PM
Does anyone else find it interesting that the primary current antagonists in this argument are all men?  SEXIST!!!!
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 10, 2012, 01:24:21 PM
Not all dude based Beer Commercial feature objectified women - that's an assumption on your part.  Some just have dudes playin' football, hanging out or tailgating.... so, you failed right there off the bat.  Your mind went right for the objectification of women - and that's your problem, not societies.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Cez on December 10, 2012, 01:29:22 PM
Why can't women have products marketed to them?  Men do.  And though I'm not your typical meathead, sports jock dude - I don't find the beer commercials that cater to the more lunk-ish members of my gender to be offensive.


Bt

This.

I don't like sports. or beer. Yet I know sport and beer commercials are aimed at guys. Heck, most videogame commercials are targeted at guys. I really don't care.

We have to understand that there are social traits embedded in our brains as a society. Men like blue, girls like pink. That may sound offensive to some people, but it's a generalization that works, and when you are talking about marketing, you go for what works.

The side effect of that of course is that a guy that likes a pink beetle is going to be called a sissy. (that, on the other hand, doesn't happen with girls that like guy things, they are called "cool" if they like sports and drink beer like a man, so stop to see who has the toughest time).

But honestly, these are societal traits that aren't going to change as long as the majority of the society agrees by them. When 90% of girls stop finding pink beetles and yellow minicords "cute", marketing will stop targeting them.

I own a red mini cord. It's awesome.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 01:31:14 PM
Why can't women have products marketed to them?  Men do.  And though I'm not your typical meathead, sports jock dude - I don't find the beer commercials that cater to the more lunk-ish members of my gender to be offensive.


Bt

This.

I don't like sports. or beer. Yet I know sport and beer commercials are aimed at guys. Heck, most videogame commercials are targeted at guys. I really don't care.

We have to understand that there are social traits embedded in our brains as a society. Men like blue, girls like pink. That may sound offensive to some people, but it's a generalization that works, and when you are talking about marketing, you go for what works.

The side effect of that of course is that a guy that likes a pink beetle is going to be called a sissy. (that, on the other hand, doesn't happen with girls that like guy things, they are called "cool" if they like sports and drink beer like a man, so stop to see who has the toughest time).

But honestly, these are societal traits that aren't going to change as long as the majority of the society agrees by them. When 90% of girls stop finding pink beetles and yellow minicords "cute", marketing will stop targeting them.

I own a red mini cord. It's awesome.
you raise a very good point there. In many ways guys have it worse then women, but it seems like these examples are often lost or ignored or forgotten
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 02:05:09 PM
If I had a nickel for every time someone scolded me for dressing too sexily...
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on December 10, 2012, 02:08:00 PM
Let's stop adhering to the "boys blue, girls pink" thing. A hundred years ago, it was the other way around because pink was considered to be closer to red and therefore a more masculine colour, while blue was a colour associated with Mary and purity. This is very much a social thing and not something that seriously caters to the preferences of toddlers.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 10, 2012, 02:16:50 PM
Which makes me curious about how & why that completely flipped, the color thing.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 10, 2012, 02:18:48 PM
I'm sorry to say this, but everytime I hear these words uttered, I can't help but cringe.

All it does is make it sound like there's this huge government conspiracy which states that women should never be anything more then housewives and that it is being carried out by a slew of agents named Smith.

To me, the use of the term 'patriarchal/mysoginist society'  is the best way to get me to antagonize with said feminist.

Moreover, it carries an undertone which makes it sound like men are inherently evil or women are inherently pure
Stika, I think you need to take a gender studies history course.

It is not a government conspiracy. It is not stating that men are evil. (You do realize I'm a man, right?) It is not stating that women are inherently pure.

What is it is stating -- and ALL that it is stating -- is that women have been oppressed for centuries by a society dominated by male control and that we need to dig ourselves out of this, because we're completely educated enough not to fall into this. That is not to say that if women had gained power they would not have subjugated men.

It's not paranoia. It's not conspiracy-theorizing. It's a fact based on knowing our cultural history. And if pointing that out makes you feel antagonistic towards whoever pointed it out, I think you need to examine why it makes you uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 02:24:29 PM
I'm sorry to say this, but everytime I hear these words uttered, I can't help but cringe.

All it does is make it sound like there's this huge government conspiracy which states that women should never be anything more then housewives and that it is being carried out by a slew of agents named Smith.

To me, the use of the term 'patriarchal/mysoginist society'  is the best way to get me to antagonize with said feminist.

Moreover, it carries an undertone which makes it sound like men are inherently evil or women are inherently pure
Stika, I think you need to take a gender studies history course.

It is not a government conspiracy. It is not stating that men are evil. (You do realize I'm a man, right?) It is not stating that women are inherently pure.

What is it is stating -- and ALL that it is stating -- is that women have been oppressed for centuries by a society dominated by male control and that we need to dig ourselves out of this, because we're completely educated enough not to fall into this. That is not to say that if women had gained power they would not have subjugated men.

It's not paranoia. It's not conspiracy-theorizing. It's a fact based on knowing our cultural history. And if pointing that out makes you feel antagonistic towards whoever pointed it out, I think you need to examine why it makes you uncomfortable.
I already did, just read the the very post you quoted. Using the terms  'patriarchal/mysoginist society'  is just an attempt at finding a villain that has no physical body or form, instead it's used at men in random.

the mere fact that you're using how our society was centuries ago pretty much proves my point, how about using something a little more current?

EDIT: And I don't see how the fact that you're a man automatically negates that, Ancient Greece for example had slaves that supported slavery.

Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 10, 2012, 02:29:04 PM
Remember, you only learn in a classroom too.  Schools are a perfect microcosm of life, and they accurately reflect the way society functions.

Also, who cares if "boys like blue, girls like pink" - or that it was different a hundred years ago.  It'll be different again someday, and at that point - it'll mean as much as it does now.  Which is to say diddly-freakin'-squat.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 10, 2012, 02:40:06 PM
I already did, just read the the very post you quoted. Using the terms  'patriarchal/mysoginist society'  is just an attempt at finding a villain that has no physical body or form, instead it's used at men in random.

the mere fact that you're using how our society was centuries ago pretty much proves my point, how about using something a little more current?

EDIT: And I don't see how the fact that you're a man automatically negates that, Ancient Greece for example had slaves that supported slavery.
........................that's not how our society was centuries ago, Stika. That's how our society has evolved. Hence the need to look at history. You did admit there's sexism in advertising. Do you think that just cropped up overnight? It's comes from thousands of years of patriarchy.

And as I said, not looking for a villain or someone (or something) to blame. It is, simply, fact. That's how our society is. That's what our society has developed from. It is and was a misogynistic, patriarchal society. You seem to be in utter denial of this, which is why I'm suggesting you ought to take a class on the topic. That fact should not make you feel antagonistic, unless you are so pleased with sexism in society you cannot imagine it changing.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 02:42:47 PM

........................that's not how our society was centuries ago, Stika. That's how our society has evolved. Hence the need to look at history. You did admit there's sexism in advertising. Do you think that just cropped up overnight? It's comes from thousands of years of patriarchy.

because there are no sexist ads against men (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN6_MYyLE4k), right?


And as I said, not looking for a villain or someone (or something) to blame. It is, simply, fact.
Opinion, actually

That's how our society is. That's what our society has developed from. It is and was a misogynistic, patriarchal society. You seem to be in utter denial of this, which is why I'm suggesting you ought to take a class on the topic. That fact should not make you feel antagonistic, unless you are so pleased with sexism in society you cannot imagine it changing.

Or maybe because your term no longer applies? Hell, maybe you're in denial.
I'm not saying we've reached equality, we're still quite a bit from it, but 'Patriarchy' assumes that men are the ones who are primarily in control, when in fact this has been slowly changing for the last hundred years.

Are we there yet? no, we are not, but i'd say throwing terms like misogynistic society only works against your goals
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 10, 2012, 03:05:58 PM
This is probably going to be my last post on this thread because I'm guessing there's like an 85% chance this is going to get me temporarily banned and if it doesn't, I'm almost certain anything I post after this will.
because there are no sexist ads towards men, right?
There's some, but it's hardly the norm and it's a fairly new thing. Also, these ads are all targeted at attracting women buyers -- even ads that you really would think should be gender neutral. (Diaper ads, anyone? Really, you're only targeting one of the parents and you're gonna just assume dads are all negligent? You know what ad I'm talking about!)

I'd guess you're talking about "dumb dad" stereotype that's prevalent in ads these days? (And sitcoms too!) Okay. So it says women are smarter then men -- sure. But how do those women look? So, it also says "you don't have to be intelligent or attractive to get a good-looking, smart, competent women. They'll go for anyone." Double-edged sword.
Quote
Opinion, actually
Uhm. Let's see.
Patriarchy. System of government in which in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it. Hrm. How many female presidents have we had? I believe the answer you're looking for is "zero".
Oh, and what about the committee the government created not all that long ago to talk about women's health issues. How many women were actually on that committee again? I think that was also zero.

Or was "misogyny" the term you thought was an opinion? Let's see, definition: hating women in particular.
Okay. So... can you think of a word that starts with "p" that is a derogatory insult *and* a reference to a woman's reproductive parts? How about a phrase that starts with "little b" which is used almost exclusively to demasculate someone and insult them? Ohohohohoh! And there's a "c" word used to insult women which is ALSO a reference to a woman's reproductive parts? "Sissy", "fairy", "pansy", also all words used to insult someone by demasculating them.
None of this indicates any sort of hatred of women to you? The fact that at least half of the commonly used insults in our culture ALL reference femininity as an undesirable trait? And that's all current, does that make you happy? Because if this isn't enough, I could go into how long this country was around before any woman was ever even in a position to run for an office, how long it took for women to get the vote, or the right to own property... not to mention taking a look at the treatment of women from much earlier than the inception of this country.

And the evidence you have that this is not a patriarchal, misogynistic society that has evolved from centuries of patriarchy and misogyny is.....? What exactly? You don't like those words? Is that your whole argument or are you just getting warmed up?

Quote
Or maybe because your term no longer applies?
I'm sorry, what term would you have liked me to use? There's some going around in my head that are likely to get you feeling even more antagonistic.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 03:20:05 PM

There's some, but it's hardly the norm and it's a fairly new thing. Also, these ads are all targeted at attracting women buyers -- even ads that you really would think should be gender neutral. (Diaper ads, anyone? Really, you're only targeting one of the parents and you're gonna just assume dads are all negligent? You know what ad I'm talking about!)

I'd guess you're talking about "dumb dad" stereotype that's prevalent in ads these days? (And sitcoms too!) Okay. So it says women are smarter then men -- sure. But how do those women look? So, it also says "you don't have to be intelligent or attractive to get a good-looking, smart, competent women. They'll go for anyone." Double-edged sword.

Actually I wasn't even thinking of those stereotypes. The one I linked in my post for example, takes one guy and pretty much suggests that all men are dumb, pigs and are a 'pain' that should be expelled. You only provided one example, I think we both know there's dozen of stereotypes against men as well.


Uhm. Let's see.
Patriarchy. System of government in which in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it. Hrm. How many female presidents have we had? I believe the answer you're looking for is "zero".
Oh, and what about the committee the government created not all that long ago to talk about women's health issues. How many women were actually on that committee again? I think that was also zero.

To be fair I was thinking of the Western Society as a whole, now correct me if I'm wrong, but currently, isn't the most powerful head of State in Europe a woman? Miss Angla Merkel to be more exact.

And wasn't Hillary Clinton a serious candidate for Head of State in the US?

And Canada already had a female Prime Minister.

If this were a Patriarchy wouldn't all of this be impossible?


Or was "misogyny" the term you thought was an opinion? Let's see, definition: hating women in particular.
Okay. So... can you think of a word that starts with "p" that is a derogatory insult *and* a reference to a woman's reproductive parts? How about a phrase that starts with "little b" which is used almost exclusively to demasculate someone and insult them? Ohohohohoh! And there's a "c" word used to insult women which is ALSO a reference to a woman's reproductive parts? "Sissy", "fairy", "pansy", also all words used to insult someone by demasculating them.
None of this indicates any sort of hatred of women to you? The fact that at least half of the commonly used insults in our culture ALL reference femininity as an undesirable trait? And that's all current, does that make you happy? Because if this isn't enough, I could go into how long this country was around before any woman was ever even in a position to run for an office, how long it took for women to get the vote, or the right to own property... not to mention taking a look at the treatment of women from much earlier than the inception of this country.

So your argument is that we have insults which are used against women, based on their reproductive organs

and that when you want to insult a male you question their manhood? Right, because there aren't any insults related to a man's reproductive organs, right? White we're at it, seeing as how questioning a guy's manhood is considered feminist, then what if someone calls a woman 'manly'? if they start saying she looks and acts like a guy?

That's an insult often thrown at Lesbians.

And the evidence you have that this is not a patriarchal, misogynistic society that has evolved from centuries of patriarchy and misogyny is.....? What exactly? You don't like those words? Is that your whole argument or are you just getting warmed up?
Already explained

I'm sorry, what term would you have liked me to use? There's some going around in my head that are likely to get you feeling even more antagonistic.

How about no term at all?

What you're doing, is the equivalent of calling someone who votes for right-wing parties a 'Nazi' or someone who votes for a left-wing party a 'communist', here's an idea: How about we drop the labels?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Say on December 10, 2012, 03:27:18 PM
If I had a nickel for every time someone scolded me for dressing too sexily...

Are you objectifying yourself, Lambonious? lol

Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Cez on December 10, 2012, 03:31:29 PM
Let's stop adhering to the "boys blue, girls pink" thing. A hundred years ago, it was the other way around because pink was considered to be closer to red and therefore a more masculine colour, while blue was a colour associated with Mary and purity. This is very much a social thing and not something that seriously caters to the preferences of toddlers.

But that's what I'm saying. It is a general thing, and something that, in this current society, to which the current advertizing campaigns are selling their products, is a common sense rule. Maybe in a 100 years, boys like orange and girls like green and then that's what the marketing campaigns will focus on.

They are social trends, for whatever reason, and marketing only reinforces them. First Person Shooters are catered to boys because, well, apparently majority of girls are not into them. Twilight is marketed at girls because, well, it seems girls like romantic stories, and boys don't. And that's all generalizations, but it's the same public who proves that they are right.

So if you want your product to sell, why wouldn't you play on what society itself tells you?

Basically, if you were to have a crown business, you would target kings, queens and beauty pageants. You *could* say that you are discriminating Sport people because you aren't targeting them, or that you are putting labels on King and Queens, but..... that IS the social trend, why wouldn't you cater to them?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 03:32:52 PM
Cray, it's pretty clear that you and stika are talking about two fairly different things.  The guy already said he wasn't from America, and had never been here (correct me if I'm wrong about that.)  The truth is that American government and society has been a bit slower to evolve socially, at least since World War II.  Women hold prominent positions of power all over the Western world, and have for a long time.

Our society, even in America is so far from a true patriarchy that using the term is frankly laughable.  Sure, there's social injustice and gender inequality, but you're throwing around the term way too freely here.  Not to mention that you're pretty much the only one posting in this thread who is getting at all heated about things.

Take some Midol, dude.   ;D
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 03:37:09 PM
Cray, it's pretty clear that you and stika are talking about two fairly different things.  The guy already said he wasn't from America, and had never been here (correct me if I'm wrong about that.)  The truth is that American government and society has been a bit slower to evolve socially, at least since World War II.  Women hold prominent positions of power all over the Western world, and have for a long time.

Our society, even in America is so far from a true patriarchy that using the term is frankly laughable.  Sure, there's social injustice and gender inequality, but you're throwing around the term way too freely here.  Not to mention that you're pretty much the only one posting in this thread who is getting at all heated about things.

Take some Midol, dude.   ;D
Yeah, I've never been in the US, though I'd love to visit it someday.

And yes, that's my point, I know there are still some glaring gender differences, but we don't live in a Patriarchy, I'm not going to lie and say that the power is equally divided, but women do hold positions of power in both the Western World and the US.

I mean... I could be wrong, but like I said, wasn't Hillary Clinton a serious candidate for office? And Considering the Republican candidate in 2008 came right off the heel of President W. Bush, a very unpopular president to say the least, I'd say chances are she would have won, this isn't what I would have expected from a patriarchy.

And yes, I know this last paragraph had a lot of assumptions :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 03:42:18 PM
Twilight is marketed at girls because...

You WOULD bring up Twilight, Cez.   :suffer:

(Posted on: December 10, 2012, 06:38:45 PM)


I mean... I could be wrong, but like I said, wasn't Hillary Clinton a serious candidate for office?

Yes, and she's already projected to be the favorite in the next presidential election, provided she runs.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on December 10, 2012, 03:43:37 PM
Our society, even in America is so far from a true patriarchy that using the term is frankly laughable.  Sure, there's social injustice and gender inequality, but you're throwing around the term way too freely here.  Not to mention that you're pretty much the only one posting in this thread who is getting at all heated about things.
Are you seriously unfamiliar with the absolutely insane patriarchal Christian sects America has? :P Have you never heard of Quiverful? :P Because patriarchy does exist in America in that form and it is shameful and it is disgusting. And it is probably a result of these ultraconservative fundamentalists (who don't think anything women say can be worthwhile because, hey, there's a chance they're being seduced by Satan and that he's talking through them right now) that women are less powerful in politics in America.  But I also think it's a gross exaggeration to claim that women have no power in society.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 10, 2012, 03:46:44 PM
Patriarchy may be a strong word for where the US is now. But certainly there are still far more men in power here than women.

And yes, Hilary was a significant contender in 2008, but is one of a VERY small group to get to that position. She's another exception, not the norm. The same goes for other female world leaders. And while it's great to see them coming up in the world, there are still places where women are treated horribly for speaking back to a male, any male, much less encouraged or allowed to run for public office.

That digresses from the particular subjects we've been discussing, granted. But my point is that just because there are exceptions, it doesn't negate that these things exist--tropes, stereotypes, prejudices, etc.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 10, 2012, 03:46:53 PM

Are you seriously unfamiliar with the absolutely insane patriarchal Christian sects America has? :P Have you never heard of Quiverful? :P Because patriarchy does exist in America in that form and it is shameful and it is disgusting. And it is probably a result of these ultraconservative fundamentalists (who don't think anything women say can be worthwhile because, hey, there's a chance they're being seduced by Satan and that he's talking through them right now) that women are less powerful in politics in America.  But I also think it's a gross exaggeration to claim that women have no power in society.

Well, honestly, I haven't heard of Quiverful, but I know what you're talking about.  Nobody said there weren't sexists in our society, just that it's an exaggeration to say that Western society as a whole is a patriarchy.  And again, America is just one part of Western society.  
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Cez on December 10, 2012, 03:53:15 PM
Twilight is marketed at girls because...

You WOULD bring up Twilight, Cez.   :suffer:

Stop putting labels on me!!

:P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on December 10, 2012, 03:56:00 PM
As for advertising, advertising caters to the specific (often sexual) fantasies of both males and females. In both cases, people are being objectified and in both cases, they are being rewarded with their ideal relationship arrangement within the advertisements. Now, this might seem more offensive to women, but in ads (let's say perfume) targeted at females, the female upon whom the ad centers has every one of her whims catered to and is being treated like a princess by the inevitably far too handsome male. In male body product ads, the male in question is usually surrounded by a harem of women, with the explicit message being: Buy this and you can have all teh group sex!!!!

Both advertisements are objectifying the opposite sex. Both advertisements are catering to very specific fantasies that are ultimately very self-centered. The male one is necessarily considered more offensive, because there the implication is that the females can only ever hope to be one of very many, but to say it's a different wish-fulfillment fantasy would be very wrong.


Are you seriously unfamiliar with the absolutely insane patriarchal Christian sects America has? :P Have you never heard of Quiverful? :P Because patriarchy does exist in America in that form and it is shameful and it is disgusting. And it is probably a result of these ultraconservative fundamentalists (who don't think anything women say can be worthwhile because, hey, there's a chance they're being seduced by Satan and that he's talking through them right now) that women are less powerful in politics in America.  But I also think it's a gross exaggeration to claim that women have no power in society.

Well, honestly, I haven't heard of Quiverful, but I know what you're talking about.  Nobody said there weren't sexists in our society, just that it's an exaggeration to say that Western society as a whole is a patriarchy.  And again, America is just one part of Western society. 
I find it astonishing that legitimate issues, such as wage differences, have yet to be addressed.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 03:58:43 PM
I think wage issues is something we can all agree that needs to be fixed. I don't think there would be any arguments there

Patriarchy may be a strong word for where the US is now. But certainly there are still far more men in power here than women.

And yes, Hilary was a significant contender in 2008, but is one of a VERY small group to get to that position. She's another exception, not the norm. The same goes for other female world leaders. And while it's great to see them coming up in the world, there are still places where women are treated horribly for speaking back to a male, any male, much less encouraged or allowed to run for public office.

That digresses from the particular subjects we've been discussing, granted. But my point is that just because there are exceptions, it doesn't negate that these things exist--tropes, stereotypes, prejudices, etc.

I agree that men still have most of the power, I just think that Patriarchy is not the correct term and that mis-using it is not the way to go.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 10, 2012, 04:00:48 PM
Stika: re: patriarchy: fair enough. It really is too strong a word for the US as a whole.

Also--man, I HATE the Axe body spray commercials. So much.

I also find the recent Chanel No. 5--a woman's perfume--commercials which feature ONLY Brad Pitt to be very odd.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 04:04:07 PM
Not familiar with Chanel comercials

as for Axe commercials, they stopped being funny or interesting to me after I was done with puberty
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 10, 2012, 04:05:09 PM
Not familiar with Chanel comercials

as for Axe commercials, they stopped being funny or interesting to me after I was done with puberty

That is because they were specifically targeted towards "Losers".

No joke.

Now I am not saying you are a loser, but the very same traits that make something attractive to a loser makes it attractive to someone in the midst of puberty (in fact it was the reason why they had to change their commercials, because it started to give Axe a bad reputation)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Cez on December 10, 2012, 04:09:08 PM
The good news is that our society always tend to "fix" itself and it does change and adapts to changes.

50 years ago, african americans weren't really part of the society in the US. 30 years ago, it might have been harder for Hilary to have gone as far as she went. Some decades ago, it was illegal to be gay in some states.

So things will change and humans become more tolerant to those that want their voice heard. It's just not going to change overnight.

and that's the feel good post of this thread. Let's all hug now. lol
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 10, 2012, 04:09:32 PM
Not familiar with Chanel comercials

as for Axe commercials, they stopped being funny or interesting to me after I was done with puberty

That is because they were specifically targeted towards "Losers".

No joke.

Now I am not saying you are a loser, but the very same traits that make something attractive to a loser makes it attractive to someone in the midst of puberty (in fact it was the reason why they had to change their commercials, because it started to give Axe a bad reputation)
That actually explains a lot  :rofl:
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 10, 2012, 04:21:28 PM
Yeah, there are "sects" like the Quiverfull Movement (think of the Duggar's, Lamb - 19 Kids and Counting.... THEY are part of the Quiverfull movement.) and other radical Christian Groups, but these are fringe groups.  You're always going to have fringe nutballs in society. 

Now something serious, like wage equality and professional equality in the workplace - yeah, these are real issues.  Some jobs CAN be a real boys club.  There's strides being made, and though it's not perfect - it's a hell of a lot better than it was just 100 years ago.  Women haven't even had the right to VOTE in America for 100 years yet!  Time, eventually, will level the playing field - and sure, it's an uphill battle - but Rome wasn't built in a day.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 10, 2012, 04:46:44 PM
Quote
Time, eventually, will level the playing field


No, no it really will not.

there are jobs women naturally tend to do worse at (I am not going to fill in which) and a lot of buisnesses justify lower pay for women due to enforced maternity leave.

At the same time there are jobs that only women and that only men are hired for.

Time isn't going to level any playing field.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on December 10, 2012, 04:49:14 PM
Don't you see that that's kind of unfair to women who don't want and never intend to have children? :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 10, 2012, 04:57:57 PM
Don't you see that that's kind of unfair to women who don't want and never intend to have children? :P

It is also unfair to buisnesses who have to pay full price for a worker who does less then a full load of work, or to not replace an important employee who is going to leave for several months.

It is why as a society we have to state what our priorities are. Since it is a situation that is unfair to both parties.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Say on December 10, 2012, 05:22:13 PM

Now something serious, like wage equality and professional equality in the workplace - yeah, these are real issues.  Some jobs CAN be a real boys club.  There's strides being made, and though it's not perfect - it's a hell of a lot better than it was just 100 years ago.  Women haven't even had the right to VOTE in America for 100 years yet!  Time, eventually, will level the playing field - and sure, it's an uphill battle - but Rome wasn't built in a day.


Those are truly aggravating.

I remember my first year in my last job I had these long exhausting arguements with the directive board regarding profiling of some employees, as much as I understand some cultural differences I think it's extremely unfair we'd segregate people just based on gender preferences. Like for example some admin jobs have got a lot of interaction with public and they forced me to hire all females, when sometimes even some of the male interns had much better knowledge for the tasks at hand. But they always argued with me: "It's corporate image".

It went on and on with a lot of different stereotypes and archaic ideas, like guys can't teach kids groups, they prefered female tutors (and this one didn't even come from the company, it'd come from the parents which is even more disturbing). Needless to say, I found out the true meaning of "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission" while doing this job. Once they had about a few months into the company with solid results proving they are a good asset regardless of their hairdo, gender, position and skin color was when they would embrace them openly and go like: "Why do you always have to stir up things?", followed by a nice scolding and a lecture about corporate culture and all that drama.

This is an international company that has been operating all over South America, USA and Europe for over 35 years.

But ironically, while some jobs are apparently just given to women - just because they may "provide a much more attractive corporate image", they are hired for that job and they are never considered for anything else ever. The only other females that were around were shareholder's wives - and we're talking about a total of 2, that's about it. Everyone else was male, with this super epic career in the company: starting out as a salesman and now is the VP, in a total of 8 years. Now, ask these secretaries or long time assistants that everyone knows how long have they been at their same position? 10 years, 8 years.

It's a long way to go.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 10, 2012, 05:30:37 PM
I've even watched a series that was about the idea that women are better caregivers then men (the main protagonist was male who disguised himself as female to "prove" the school wrong).

It was a very interesting set up until it devolved into a huge mess. Lets just say that the original intent of the show DEFINATELY wasn't proven. In fact with an objective eye you could even argue that the idea that women are better caregivers then men is held up.

In fact you don't even discover why the school only hires women until way at the end. It is basically "Man hating". I am sure the anime is popular but it is just terrible to me when I take a really good look at it.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 10, 2012, 06:53:56 PM
Well, when I say level the playing field, I don't mean that it makes men and women equal at every task and every job - to expect that is lunacy.  But there are some jobs that both men and women can do equally, and in those spots - where severe inequality exists - time will even the playing field, so to speak.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 10, 2012, 07:02:38 PM
The idea of basing just any idea of how reality works around an anime is just...ridiculous.

Some people are better or worse at certain jobs than others. It is not linked to their gender. Women have excelled in all the same careers as men and continue to do so. That's not always accepted, and historically has often not even been allowed. But it's true regardless.

If someone is doing equal work, they should get equal pay.

And furthermore...honestly, Neonivek, your last few posts really come across as being rather sexist.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 10, 2012, 10:03:49 PM
Quote
The idea of basing just any idea of how reality works around an anime is just...ridiculous

No dang it! I mean that was my experience in seeing the outright "Women are better caregivers" and then I just explained that the show kinda devolved into terribleness that doesn't prove the very point it was trying to make (That men can be just as good) if you looked are it more carefully.

That is was an anime that tried to tackle that very issue and failed terribly. Both at proving that men can in fact be just as good at care giving (Because he immediately had an affair with a student and slept with the girls, even if it was nonsexually) and failing at proving a sensible motive for a school to even believe that by just boiling it down to man hating (and a very dumb reason to man hate).

Quote
If someone is doing equal work, they should get equal pay.

And furthermore...honestly, Neonivek, your last few posts really come across as being rather sexist.

I was saying that the payment aspect is unfair to both women and buisnesses, because of this there is no real "natural evolution towards equality" and thus it requires us as a society to make a stand at which value we consider to be a higher priority.

Women because they are being disadvantaged for being a woman whether or not they exibit these conditions.

Or buisnesses because at equal pay they would pay more for women employees due to maternity leave.

As in, it isn't an issue we can expect to go away on its own. It is an issue that actually needs to be contested and we cannot assume that society will fix it due to gravity. That time will never alone make women equal because equality comes at a price.

Now if that is still sexist, then I don't know why and I'd like to be filled in.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 10, 2012, 10:10:44 PM
Okay--that does clarify what you meant, thank you.

Glad to know you aren't basing any judgments on reality on anime, either! Yeah man-hating is a pretty dumb reason for just anything.

The rest...I would reply to at greater length if I weren't about to fall asleep on my keyboard. :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on December 10, 2012, 11:30:06 PM
Don't you see that that's kind of unfair to women who don't want and never intend to have children? :P
or to not replace an important employee who is going to leave for several months.
Technically, businesses are investing in workers and providing them with an incentive to return later in that case. But to have sterile, celibate or simply unmaternal women be paid less than their male counterparts is the height of unfairness if we're only arguing that pregnant females make up for it by taking leave. Unless you really think that all workers should have to pay the price and earn less to make up for the sick leave of what is a rapidly diminishing number of females having children, it's not a good argument. Personally, I'm with Kelsey's videos on this one.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Rosella on December 11, 2012, 07:25:36 AM
Not to mention, guys can take paternity leave too. :P Obviously, there's a certain amount of time required to have a baby and then recover from that, but the actual caring-for-a-newborn part of parenting is fairly gender-neutral.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on December 11, 2012, 08:34:24 AM
Re: Maternity leave - In my experience, (at least in the US), it's generally unpaid. (You can take vacation and sick leave, and sometimes there's short-term disability insurance, but that's it.) So that really shouldn't be a factor in how much women make.

Re: Patriarchal society - Yes, there's still way too much of this. It's slowly getting better, but it's still there. Just because there are women in positions of power doesn't disprove this. After all, we (America) have a black president, and I don't think anyone's going to argue that racism is dead.

Re: Marketing - This is a difficult one. As cray pointed out, it's not the existence of the products that's the problem - it's the way they are marketed. However, if women didn't buy the things that are targeted at them, then those things wouldn't be marketed as they are. That doesn't make it right, but corporations (with few exceptions) are all about the bottom line, not about doing what's right. There are a lot of girls and women who like pink and purple - it doesn't matter whether it's an inherent "girl" thing or not. If people are willing to buy it (and even pay extra), then corporations will be more than happy to do whatever it takes to get them to do so. It's only when society as a whole changes that marketing will reflect that change. (Please note that I am not excusing corporations for marketing in offensive ways; I'm just saying that it's inevitable as long as it is effective.) I do think change is coming, but it's going to be a slow process. :-\

The side effect of that of course is that a guy that likes a pink beetle is going to be called a sissy. (that, on the other hand, doesn't happen with girls that like guy things, they are called "cool" if they like sports and drink beer like a man, so stop to see who has the toughest time).

you raise a very good point there. In many ways guys have it worse then women, but it seems like these examples are often lost or ignored or forgotten
The thing is, in this case the man is being ridiculed for being like (the stereotype of) a woman. So this is still equally offensive to women.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 11, 2012, 08:43:54 AM

Re: Patriarchal society - Yes, there's still way too much of this. It's slowly getting better, but it's still there. Just because there are women in positions of power doesn't disprove this. After all, we (America) have a black president, and I don't think anyone's going to argue that racism is dead.
I think there's a difference between racism existing in a country and a country being labelled as 'Racist'

Racism existing in a country means that you'll sporadically encounter racist people or read about it the media
A country being racist means imo that if you are of a different race you are simply not welcome there by both the people and the government alike

The same goes with sexism.

Does sexism exist in the western world and the US? Yes, there is no question or margin of doubt about it
Is the US a chauvinistic and Patriarch society? No, I don't think so, because that would imply women were widely regarded as inferior in just about very stratus of society by both the people and the government.





The thing is, in this case the man is being ridiculed for being like (the stereotype of) a woman. So this is still equally offensive to women.

You're right, it is equally offensive to women, but I'd argue that the direct repercussions are worse for men then they are for women.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 11, 2012, 11:09:34 AM

The thing is, in this case the man is being ridiculed for being like (the stereotype of) a woman. So this is still equally offensive to women.

You're right, it is equally offensive to women, but I'd argue that the direct repercussions are worse for men then they are for women.

How? It implies that feminine qualities are unsuitable or inferior.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 11, 2012, 11:11:15 AM

The thing is, in this case the man is being ridiculed for being like (the stereotype of) a woman. So this is still equally offensive to women.

You're right, it is equally offensive to women, but I'd argue that the direct repercussions are worse for men then they are for women.

How? It implies that feminine qualities are unsuitable or inferior.

and it results in kids getting hounded and harassed in schools for years to come

The insult to women in implied, the aggression to males is direct and often physical

though to be fair, I feel that men are to blame for this, as I'm fairly certain most women don't really care if guys like feminine things
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 11, 2012, 11:43:39 AM
The implication for women is far reaching, a concept is established that feminine qualities (real or otherwise) are considered inferior or undesirable.  That has serious implications for women in all aspects of their life.  This is not to say men do not suffer from sexism, but the system being reinforced is one that is oppressive to women.  it is not just the bullies, but the kid being bullied for being girly seeing the world through that lens.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 11, 2012, 11:49:41 AM
The implication for women is far reaching, a concept is established that feminine qualities (real or otherwise) are considered inferior or undesirable.  That has serious implications for women in all aspects of their life.  This is not to say men do not suffer from sexism, but the system being reinforced is one that is oppressive to women.  it is not just the bullies, but the kid being bullied for being girly seeing the world through that lens.
Isn't it just as far reaching for women as it is for men though?

Moreover I think there's is another way to look at it, one could argue that issue is not that feminine traits are undesirable or inferior, it's that they are undesirable on men because it is not how society feels they 'should' act, so one could see it, not as question of vertical hierarchy, but a horizontal one.

Though this is something I'm not very familiar with, so I can't be sure of this, I'm really just guessing or if you prefer, trying to find another way to look at the circunstances
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 12, 2012, 03:59:35 PM
Moreover I think there's is another way to look at it, one could argue that issue is not that feminine traits are undesirable or inferior, it's that they are undesirable on men because it is not how society feels they 'should' act, so one could see it, not as question of vertical hierarchy, but a horizontal one.

Though this is something I'm not very familiar with, so I can't be sure of this, I'm really just guessing or if you prefer, trying to find another way to look at the circunstances
Depending who you talk to, that theory is either a complete joke or a viable problem we have in this country.

I think it's hard to say, because you can't really tell whether or not feminine traits are considered "inferior" on men, while women are being treated unequally. Like, if women were completely, 100%, inarguably treated equally to men in our society.... would we still talk about feminine traits on men as being undesirable?

And we can't know that, because our society isn't at a point where women are treated equally all of the time.

But, even if it isn't sexism, isn't it still a problem? This is what produces homophobia and transphobia -- the idea that men must behave a certain way and women must behave a certain way. Even if that idea isn't rooted in sexism, it's a major issue that our society needs to fix.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 12, 2012, 04:24:42 PM
Moreover I think there's is another way to look at it, one could argue that issue is not that feminine traits are undesirable or inferior, it's that they are undesirable on men because it is not how society feels they 'should' act, so one could see it, not as question of vertical hierarchy, but a horizontal one.

Though this is something I'm not very familiar with, so I can't be sure of this, I'm really just guessing or if you prefer, trying to find another way to look at the circunstances
Depending who you talk to, that theory is either a complete joke or a viable problem we have in this country.

I think it's hard to say, because you can't really tell whether or not feminine traits are considered "inferior" on men, while women are being treated unequally. Like, if women were completely, 100%, inarguably treated equally to men in our society.... would we still talk about feminine traits on men as being undesirable?

And we can't know that, because our society isn't at a point where women are treated equally all of the time.

But, even if it isn't sexism, isn't it still a problem? This is what produces homophobia and transphobia -- the idea that men must behave a certain way and women must behave a certain way. Even if that idea isn't rooted in sexism, it's a major issue that our society needs to fix.
Agreed, this is something that we'll never be able to trully tell as we don't really have a point of comparison.

As for 'feminine' traits being undesirable on men without being considered inferior, I'd say it's something that changes from person to person and I have no idea which one is more prevalent, though if I were a betting man, I'd say it would be the 'inferior' version.

And I agree, this sort of thinking leads to homphobia and transphobia (heh, I didn't even know that last one was a word)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Rosella on December 12, 2012, 04:59:35 PM
There's also bipohobia, heterosexism...  :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on December 12, 2012, 05:33:17 PM
I think you might be getting bogged down in assuming that a single country has a single attitude to masculine or feminine attributes. In certain fields - warfare, aggressive finance, politics - very masculine cultures tend to materialise. So any people within those cultures, whether male or female, tend to have to take on what are perceived as masculine attributes, most obviously aggression and the ability to dominate. It's conceivable that a woman might find it harder to be accepted in such a role - she certainly would a hundred years ago - but to a large extent that depends on the woman.

And then you have other fields like, say, nursing which are considered more feminine. If a man displays feminine attributes in a care home he will probably be accepted, despite the gender difference. But if he displayed such attributes in a big City firm, he'd probably be ridiculed by the other people there, women included.

It's probably more acceptable for men to display feminine attributes in public now than it was twenty years ago - you sometimes hear about how men are allowed to get in touch with their "emotional side" now - but there is still a lot of cultural architecture at work which can still be felt.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 12, 2012, 06:37:15 PM
There's also bipohobia, heterosexism...  :P

o.O


humans are weird
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Rosella on December 12, 2012, 07:01:27 PM
For having so many prejudices or so many words to describe them? :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 12, 2012, 07:13:12 PM
both :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: GrahamRocks! on December 12, 2012, 07:24:21 PM
Aww, I was gonna say that!
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 12, 2012, 07:33:18 PM
I can remove my previous post if you like :P

Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: GrahamRocks! on December 12, 2012, 07:39:26 PM
Oh, you're fine stika. Thank you for offering though.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Rosella on December 12, 2012, 07:43:31 PM
If the prejudice is there, you need a word to describe it though. XD
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Say on December 12, 2012, 09:18:34 PM
The Last of Us dev says studio was asked to put Ellie on the back cover; claims it is a fallacy that putting a female on cover will lead to lesser sales.

The cover art for Naughty Dog's PlayStation 3 action game The Last of Us features female protagonist Ellie alongside male character Joel, but not all wanted it this way. Naughty Dog creative director Neil Druckmann and Ellie voice actress Ashley Johnson spoke out on the issue in a new VG247 interview.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/naughty-dog-games-dont-need-males-on-cover-to-sell-6401457
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 12, 2012, 09:48:53 PM
Props to you, Naughty Dog! That's some BS right there.

As if I needed more reasons to want to play that game....
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 13, 2012, 04:57:27 AM
Really? Sony Entertainment thinks that putting a female on a cover will lead to lesser sales?  :-\

Come on now...

Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 13, 2012, 12:32:15 PM
Remember Beyond Good and Evil featured a woman on the cover.

So it isn't like this information was entirely made up on the spot.

Mind you I honestly would love to see where Sony got their information.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 13, 2012, 12:44:23 PM
Even if there are numbers for it--this is a place where someone needs to actively work to change those numbers. So I'm glad Naughty Dog is taking the stand on that to say no, she's a main character, that whole idea is messed up anyways, she's going on the cover.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 13, 2012, 01:25:34 PM
Remember Beyond Good and Evil featured a woman on the cover.

So it isn't like this information was entirely made up on the spot.

Mind you I honestly would love to see where Sony got their information.
on the other hand Lara Croft games seem to sell pretty well.

And before anyone mentions her breasts, they've been scale down since Legend
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 13, 2012, 03:05:46 PM
Honestly Laura's Breasts may have been made large for the same reason Tifa's breasts were excessively large.

Graphical limitations. (No really)

Mind you I was so young when I played Tomb Raider I never noticed her breasts and still kinda don't even today. Same with Tifa oddly enough.

Interesting what desensitization can do.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 13, 2012, 04:40:34 PM
Dungeon Siege feature a female on the cover even though the gender of the main character wasn't set. The first game, with the female on the cover, was (I believe?) the best selling of the whole trilogy.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 13, 2012, 05:23:05 PM
Honestly Laura's Breasts may have been made large for the same reason Tifa's breasts were excessively large.

Graphical limitations. (No really)

Mind you I was so young when I played Tomb Raider I never noticed her breasts and still kinda don't even today. Same with Tifa oddly enough.

Interesting what desensitization can do.

I had no idea that was the real reason.

Dungeon Siege feature a female on the cover even though the gender of the main character wasn't set. The first game, with the female on the cover, was (I believe?) the best selling of the whole trilogy.

I know the sequel also features a female character in its cover
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 13, 2012, 09:23:14 PM
Honestly Laura's Breasts may have been made large for the same reason Tifa's breasts were excessively large.

Graphical limitations. (No really)

Mind you I was so young when I played Tomb Raider I never noticed her breasts and still kinda don't even today. Same with Tifa oddly enough.

Interesting what desensitization can do.

Can't speak for FF7 (although why did the other characters not have enormous breasts?) but in the case of Tomb Raider it was originally a graphical error that her chest was so big, but before they fixed it someone with authority demanded they leave it unchanged.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Rosella on December 13, 2012, 09:54:03 PM
I think the general idea was that with the number of polygons they had, they only really had the capability to make her breasts comically large or non-existent.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 13, 2012, 10:16:04 PM
Oddly enough Alone in the Dark made their female character with the intent of making her appealing to other women.

The Result is that she actually fits the game much better, has the better backstory, and has a greater reason to be there.

She also is middle aged and has modest proportions.

According to one Letsplay I watched she was the first videogame character created exclusively for a female audiance.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 14, 2012, 09:41:36 AM
Exclusive? That's kind of funny.  Although I guess Sierra had the same concerns when they made KQ4, that somehow a female protagonist would make all of the existing fans hate the game.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 14, 2012, 11:40:05 AM
I will say after Alone in the Dark the female protagonist became a damsel.

I think the largest issue they had when making Kings Quest was the fact that they wanted to make the game a series of games with different characters but at the same time knowing that Graham was the favorite. (PURE GUESS... I don't have any information on that)

Which would be interesting to me given that Alexander and Valanece are my two favorites.

and While Alexander is one of my favorites the general concensus I get is that people find him to be whiny and underwhelming.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: GrahamRocks! on December 14, 2012, 08:19:03 PM
Really? I thought people thought of him as "OMG! EMO PRINCE!"

Like Cassima said in TSL, he's getting better.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 14, 2012, 08:30:18 PM
Alexander rarely came off as Emo to me. He rarely complains about anything.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 15, 2012, 08:04:40 PM
Dungeon Siege feature a female on the cover even though the gender of the main character wasn't set. The first game, with the female on the cover, was (I believe?) the best selling of the whole trilogy.

I know the sequel also features a female character in its cover
Okay... why can I not for the life of me remember that cover?! :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 16, 2012, 09:34:47 AM
Dungeon Siege feature a female on the cover even though the gender of the main character wasn't set. The first game, with the female on the cover, was (I believe?) the best selling of the whole trilogy.

I know the sequel also features a female character in its cover
Okay... why can I not for the life of me remember that cover?! :P

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/DungeonSiegeBoxArt.jpg/250px-DungeonSiegeBoxArt.jpg)


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: GrahamRocks! on December 16, 2012, 10:16:38 AM
That IS a nice cover! She looks confident and ready to kick some monster butt.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 16, 2012, 02:06:18 PM
that's the first game though, he was talking about the sequel's cover.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c2/Dungeonseige2.jpg)
(http://cdn0.spong.com/pack/d/u/dungeonsie215290l/_-Dungeon-Siege-II-Broken-World-PC-_.jpg)
and the version I own:
(http://i2.listal.com/image/287344/600full-dungeon-siege-ii%3A-deluxe-edition-cover.jpg)

personally, I'm not fan of Dungeon Siege's 1 cover, her face looks weird

and I'm also not a fan of the first image I posted, a bit too 'we want to cash in on Lord of The rings' for me
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 16, 2012, 10:50:08 PM
Alexander rarely came off as Emo to me. He rarely complains about anything.

Yeah the only time the characters in the series come off as annoying is in KQ7.  Besides none of the characters are particularly developed anyway (which is fine).
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 17, 2012, 03:06:12 PM
So basically Dungeon Siege covers basically devolved into using women for inappropriate sex appeal immediately after the first box.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 17, 2012, 03:33:26 PM
You've got some image-linking issues there, Stika.

EDIT: Odd, as soon as I posted that, it worked.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: GrahamRocks! on December 17, 2012, 04:45:24 PM
Maybe I meant Angsty... 'cause, well, he DOES have a Dark and Troubled Past that he's still haunted by according to the Companion.

Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 17, 2012, 07:21:53 PM
Maybe I meant Angsty... 'cause, well, he DOES have a Dark and Troubled Past that he's still haunted by according to the Companion.



I will say that KQ6 was the most legitimately romantic of the King Quest games. You send her love poetry to convince her you are alive and not a trick.

Cassima is quite vicious.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 17, 2012, 08:40:50 PM
Maybe I meant Angsty... 'cause, well, he DOES have a Dark and Troubled Past that he's still haunted by according to the Companion.



I will say that KQ6 was the most legitimately romantic of the King Quest games. You send her love poetry to convince her you are alive and not a trick.

Cassima is quite vicious.

Actually if you send her the poem before the ring she assumes Alhazred sent it to her. :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 18, 2012, 03:09:35 AM
I will say that one thing I do hate about the handling of female characters is just the HUGE tendency they have for being demoted from being a capable member of the group.

Where often if they continue to contribute anything it will be the one spell they will do from a mile back.

I see this more often in Anime but even videogames arn't immune to this.

I know people are going to list exceptions and there are... but notice how many exceptions there are when
A) The main character is female
or
B) A large portion of the cast (at least 50%) is female.

There just seems to be an ingrained image of female frailty in people's heads.

The WORST I've seen wasn't even from a videogame it was from an anime (Marchen Awakens Romance... where the only consistantly competent female was also the fanservice girl... and the one who wasn't fanservice gets immediately demoted AFTER her speach... Thanks anime, so I can either get invested in a woman who constantly gets put in compromising possitions, or someone who could be a main character in her own right being thrust aside because she is a girl and this is a anime for men -_-)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 18, 2012, 06:06:50 AM
You know, though, I love it when a female character is just as capable as the boys - and it's not this HUGE deal that she's a woman.  She's just a part of the group, you know?

Zoe, from Serenity, for example.  It's not a big deal that she kicks ass and is Mal's best friend and partner in crime because that's just who she is.

Over course, then, on the other side - you have River, who's this damaged, frail thing, who's been so damaged, she's turned into an other-worldly killing machine.... the maniac pixie girl who suddenly kills everything in sight....


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 18, 2012, 07:52:46 AM
I prefer it when a female character is equally capable as the rest of her team

seems these days they're either less capable then any of them... or more capable then all of them put together :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 18, 2012, 08:50:24 AM
Neonivek--you pretty much hit the nail on the head of what the whole project that Anita Sarkeesian is doing is about, there. :)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 18, 2012, 10:12:44 AM
You know, though, I love it when a female character is just as capable as the boys - and it's not this HUGE deal that she's a woman.  She's just a part of the group, you know?

Zoe, from Serenity, for example.  It's not a big deal that she kicks ass and is Mal's best friend and partner in crime because that's just who she is.

Over course, then, on the other side - you have River, who's this damaged, frail thing, who's been so damaged, she's turned into an other-worldly killing machine.... the maniac pixie girl who suddenly kills everything in sight....


Bt

Or Kaylee...uggggghhhhh.

While it is nice that Zoe isn't a walking stereotype, she still has the personality of a twig.  The only thing we know about her is that she likes nerdy white guys and that shotgun she fondles every episode. 

...

I take it back, now I'm convinced she is Joss Whedon's fantasy woman.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 18, 2012, 10:24:18 AM
I'm a Whedon-phile, but I love Firefly for a lot of reasons, and the variety of female characters is one of them. Zoey, River, Kaylee, Inara, YoSaffBridge--there's a wide array of them and I think that's great. They've got different personalities, strengths, weaknesses, different roles on the ship and the show, and none of them are secondary or punished because they're women. They all do their share of day-saving, same as the guys on the show/ship. Your mileage may vary on which ones you like and why, of course, that's personal taste. But, there's my take on it.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 18, 2012, 10:31:51 AM
I do think Whedon is above par on the issue.  It also bears mentioning that he is in a rare club that features main casts that are have just as many female members as male.

The dude loves his cliches though, and for me they get pretty tiresome.

On Season 2 of Buffy though, I am enjoying it.  Whedon should stick to campy stuff.  I thought all of the serious Firefly episodes were garbage.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 19, 2012, 09:09:01 PM
So basically Dungeon Siege covers basically devolved into using women for inappropriate sex appeal immediately after the first box.
Women with swords for sex appeal.
But the point I was making is that the games sold just fine with a woman on the cover. And the third one, which did not have a woman on the cover, crashed and burned.* Possibly because she was dressed like a medieval warrior stripper. No, actually, I'm pretty sure that was it. But nevertheless, the argument that "women on game covers don't sell" is clearly false.

*The fact that third one seemed to have a stupid plot from all of the pre-release promotions and was developed by a different company and seemed to completely ignore the events of the second game (not that the second game acknowledged the events of the first game but whatever), I'm sure, had nothing to do with why it didn't sell... ::) :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 19, 2012, 09:33:34 PM
Quote
No, actually, I'm pretty sure that was it. But nevertheless, the argument that "women on game covers don't sell" is clearly false.

Actually, in the recent article about this myth/fact, one major point was that women are so rarely featured on covers that it's almost impossible to even study if this is true or not. There's so little of a sampling out there, comparatively, that you can't even accurately compare it.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: crayauchtin on December 19, 2012, 10:23:40 PM
Honestly, I think the only time I've ever seen a woman on a game box cover who was *not* scantily clad or sexualized is that Alice in Wonderland horror video game.... never played it, just saw the box. Little blonde Alice..... with blood all on her.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 20, 2012, 12:19:25 AM
Honestly, I think the only time I've ever seen a woman on a game box cover who was *not* scantily clad or sexualized is that Alice in Wonderland horror video game.... never played it, just saw the box. Little blonde Alice..... with blood all on her.

The Fatal Frames...

Oddly enough in an interview they said they thought of having a male protagonist but said that a female one would be better since she is more helpless.

While a part of me agrees in that people expect a woman to attempt to do things by just destroying stuff with her hands... It does get a bit uttarly stupid in the Third, the only one I own, when both female protagonists refuse to push heavy objects. (Oddly enough the only male protagonist is actually the weakest psychically and is thus able to hide from ghosts because of it.)

Then again only one of the protagonists, of the three, is willing to duck down into small places. All the others will refuse.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 20, 2012, 07:24:46 AM
The Fatal Frames...

Oddly enough in an interview they said they thought of having a male protagonist but said that a female one would be better since she is more helpless.

While a part of me agrees in that people expect a woman to attempt to do things by just destroying stuff with her hands... It does get a bit uttarly stupid in the Third, the only one I own, when both female protagonists refuse to push heavy objects. (Oddly enough the only male protagonist is actually the weakest psychically and is thus able to hide from ghosts because of it.)

Then again only one of the protagonists, of the three, is willing to duck down into small places. All the others will refuse.

So many things in that make grrrr.... mostly the part about what they said in an interview.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 20, 2012, 01:27:56 PM
I wrote that wrong. It was that people did NOT expect a woman to do things by just destroying stuff with her hands.

Mind you I got the impression you did get my true intent correctly.

If you want what they said exactly it was closer that a woman is less likely to try to get out of situations physically. Where if there was a locked door a man might break it down and a woman would find the key.

I just translated that to helpless.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on December 20, 2012, 01:52:02 PM
Ah, I see--gotcha. Yeah, not not destroying things with one's hand does not equal helpless. :)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on December 20, 2012, 06:49:01 PM
on a sidenote: Everyone who likes scary games should play the first fatal frame game.

It's short, but one of the best in its genre imo
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on December 20, 2012, 07:18:45 PM
on a sidenote: Everyone who likes scary games should play the first fatal frame game.

It's short, but one of the best in its genre imo

I do agree with people who say the game would be VASTLY improved if they included an option to remove the point counters.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on December 20, 2012, 09:59:57 PM
Honestly, I think the only time I've ever seen a woman on a game box cover who was *not* scantily clad or sexualized is that Alice in Wonderland horror video game.... never played it, just saw the box. Little blonde Alice..... with blood all on her.

There aren't many.  In recent memory I can only think of Mirror's Edge and Final Fantasy XIII.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on January 12, 2013, 03:46:22 AM
I hear that apperantly Hitman Absolution actually TRIED to make controversy with their leather wearing gun weilding sexy nuns... which I doubt worked.

Hypersexualised women in videogames for the sake of hypersexualisation in a possition where their sexualisation actually works against them? par for the course in videogames unfortunately

It is a shame that glamorising women often leads to shamelessness as an "attractive" woman is often potrayed as someone not meant to be taken seriously or with any respect (a Bimbo for example)

Yet men in the same role tend to at least command respect since the steriotypes don't leave much room for much else.

Which I think is one of the major ways in which male and female roles differ when it comes to sexualisation is that male sexualisation and female sexualisation do not come with the same trade offs because of how we view and steriotype each sexualisation (Hense why "Manwhore" is barely an insult and "w****" is an outright one. Hense the term "playboy")

Yet it could just be lazyness in writing as well as male perspective. I should formalise my thinking later on this subject about sexualisation differences between male and female roles and see if there is a difference between them or if it is "just" (as in only) that highly sexualised female roles tend to be written for males for obvious reasons.

*I really shouldn't have made this post while I was this sleepy. I HOPE this post makes sense when I read it later*
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on March 07, 2013, 04:00:40 PM
Thought I'd give the thread a bump since the first video is out, and it is about the Damsel in Distress, which I think was the last thing being discussed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on March 07, 2013, 04:52:38 PM
Well I'll ask this for quality assurance since listening to sexists trying not to be sexist is depressing.

Does the video say that Damsels in Distress are inherantly bad?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 07, 2013, 05:37:18 PM
That's sort of a narrow question, actually, and it feels like you're fishing for what you know the answer already is. So, I'll just say watch the video if you're curious.

To summarize without answering that, this is actually, it turns out, only Part 1 of her look at the trope, focusing on classic 80's and 90's game for the most part, and the bigger franchises. It doesn't say anything that hasn't been said before, but establishes a touchstone for the discussion. Part 2 will focus on games in the last ten years, as well as games that have flipped around the trope (I was happy to see a screenshot of Elaine Marley in there!).

I was hoping for some more new insights or thoughts on the whole thing, so here's hoping Part 2 has more of that. There were some interesting bits of video game history in Part 1 that I was unaware of, though.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on March 07, 2013, 05:54:40 PM
Quote
That's sort of a narrow question, actually

It is a question that instantly assertains the quality involved here and I would go as far as to say that it is the single easiest question one could ask.

As well I don't know the answer because I have heard good debates on these issues and bad ones and thus I am asking if this is a "Good program" or a "Bad one diguised as a good one".

And Here is the thing. I am only curious if the answer to my question is of a certain type. Otherwise I absolutely do not want to listen to drivel because I don't like to listen to sexism because I am really tired of it.

If the answer IS however not sexist then I am very interested.

Though let me break it down for you for the two answers I am expecting

1) Damsels are not inherantly a negative thing but rather the use and abuse as well the limit roles of women is what makes damsels a bad thing as well as how it tends to be handled within these works of fiction and how it is used against character and narrative: The video is worth listening to because it understands that the issues surrounding the use of women in videogames is not the fact that these roles exist but that they are overused, similar, abusive, and often moving outside them has negative connotations as well as how they are used within the medium.

2) Damsels are inherantly negative: Not worth listening to. The Creator fails to understand the purpose of the role and roles in general and in many ways gender. It is a common trap people fall into when discussing this topic and one I spent a long time in but later fell out of.

I am hoping it is in the first category. I am not going to fluff up what I said to sound less sexist mind you mostly because I don't want to.

Admittingly there is a C

C) Nothing is actually said this is all an exploration and the conclusions are up to you: Also worth listening to.

...

Quote
I was happy to see a screenshot of Elaine Marley in there

Hey! She isn't a Damsel! Guybrush is!

Thats the joke!
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 07, 2013, 06:37:09 PM
Okay--that's more of an interesting question, then. I had the impression that you were going to possibly write off the whole thing based simply on a yes or no answer.

I'd say it's more what you describe in (1) than (2)--the trope itself doesn't ruin a game, but is problematic and overused and abused quite a lot in video games, and it then examines some specific and very big titles where this happens.

I know, that's what's awesome about Elaine! Actually, throughout the series, she and Guybrush take turns each being the damsel and the rescuer, really. But I love her for it. :)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Balinaeri on March 07, 2013, 07:13:44 PM
I believe she actually says in the final minute that having a Damsel in Distress does not necessarily make the game bad. Take from that what you will.

I only watched part one. I'm not sure if any of the other parts are available yet. There appear to be other episodes in the series. I may watch a couple.

I was disappointed that she failed to mention Tomb Raider at all. I realize that it counters her point, but is worth mentioning if only because of the sheer power of that franchise.  It's only fair of her to mention that a) there are counter-examples, and b) there have even been successful ones.

Heck, even in Leisure Suit Larry, probably the most misogynistic game ever, you get to play as Passionate Patty sometimes.

I was also disappointed that, as Katie points out, she didn't mention really anything new. There were some examples that I had not seen, including a couple that should be repulsive to any thinking person, male or female, IMHO.

I found her examples of remakes troubling as well. I understand the point in that it emphasizes this role to a whole new generation, which is problematic. However, we are in a period where retro/remakes are popular. And would a remake of Prince of Persia without the Damsel be appealing? It wouldn't be a remake then. It would be a sequel. And that'd be fine. If you wanted to make a Princess of Persia, that'd be fine too. Although hard to believe considering the role of women in the Middle East. In any case, however, neither of these would be remakes, which is the popular item today.

It got me to thinking about my own favorite games. I've never been a fan of Mario...don't like platform games truthfully. And I played about 30 minutes of one Zelda game and was immensely bored.

But I've played both Laura Bow mysteries, and liked them at the time. (Replayed them a couple years ago...dint' think they aged well, but that's another story)

My favorite character in Street Fighter was Chun-Li. And yes, part of that is because of her sexy legs, but also I just liked her special moves and found her more fun to play than anyone else.

Gabriel Knight has some of the Damsel in Distress bits, but in the later episodes, Grace ends up rescuing him just as often as he rescues her.

At least until QfGV, it doesn't really hit the QfG series. Yes, we find out in QfGIV that Erana is imprisoned, but that's right after dealing with the most un-damsel-like Katrina, who sacrifices herself for our hero. The Rusalka is a DnD, but that's a minor quest that you can't even do unless you're a Paladin (grrr). And I suppose Tanya could be considered one as well, although I don't tend to think of children that way. In QfGI, you have to rescue both Elsa and her brother, and those are separate quests. In addition, there are strong females in both QfGII and QfGIII. One of them even teaches you to fight.


I'm very much looking forward to the Heroine's Quest game that's coming, and of course there's good old Cognition and Erica Reed.

So, I think I'm ok. I won't be passing these archaisms on via the video game. My favorites appear to be safe from her searching eye.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on March 07, 2013, 07:23:32 PM
My impression was that she said it wasn't inherently a bad thing, but in the vast majority of cases it poses a problem, but she isn't done covering it and she is going to cover the examples were it is okay or even used in a clever way, hence why she had the Governor of Monkey Island shown near the end (I forget her name).
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 07, 2013, 07:51:26 PM
Yeah, Part 2, which covers more modern games, is yet to be posted. But she has previous video on tropes in (mostly) other media: books, movies, TV, toys. Video Games is the new series.

The remakes thing is a good point--nostalgia's cool, yay! But yeah, it does also mean reintroducing those tropes from 20 years ago.

It also makes me think adventure games are kind of the black sheep in a lot of ways--never having been AS big as games like Mario and Zelda, they both could get away with new & different things (in this example, active female protags/rescuers/heroes), and are also not quite as recognized for those contributions.

And while her points and examples were nothing new to me (or us, it seems), they will be for a lot of people who watch that video who aren't as familiar with video games. So, yeah, I'm fine with her establishing that baseline of knowledge in the first video for those who are new to the discussion. But I do hope Part 2 brings something new.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 07, 2013, 07:54:23 PM
[MOD EDIT] Katie made this funnier for me.

(http://danstokurants.rangercentral.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/boobie_bird.jpg)

You're right.  That is funnier.  Thanks, Katie!
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on March 07, 2013, 10:35:02 PM
Trust me she will get to Lara croft it is just that... well... Lara isn't a Damsel in anyway and to my knowledge has never fallen prone to being a damsel except in her latest game that has some unfortunate implications.

Mind you Lara's reboot is supposed to lay on the "helpless poor little girl" aspect to make the player want to save her. The implications of turning what was essentially one of the very few action heroines who wasn't made vulnerable because "Women are vulnerable little kittens" doesn't sit right with me.

Though I am sure I am just projecting because of "Other M" and the absolutely terrible things it did to Samus.

Quote
I know, that's what's awesome about Elaine! Actually, throughout the series, she and Guybrush take turns each being the damsel and the rescuer, really.

It wasn't until the fourth game that Guybrush actually got to save Elaine from something he himself didn't do to her and the third game where he legitimately saves her from something (admittingly danger he himself put her in out of stupidity).

Usually it is Guybrush noticing that Elaine is in danger and going to rescue her... only to find that either
A) She rescued herself
or
B) He ruined her plan to save the day.

and it usually involves Elaine saving Guybrush at least once.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 08, 2013, 08:38:49 AM
Yeah, I've not played the second MI, so I don't know what happens in that one yet, but he definitely did some saving MI3 and ToMI. Though in ToMI, I did highly enjoy how she frequently was off doing her own thing, totally fine, had it handled. It was pretty cool. :) One of these days, I'll actually put together an Elaine Marley costume for Halloween. Oh, that too--she's still Elaine Marley, not Threepwood! I like that they never changed her last name even after they got married. :)


Yeah, I've heard some things about how more recent games have screwed with the awesome of Lara Croft and Samus. Me, I personally kinda hate how they also made Samus's outfits sexier and sexier over time once everyone knew she was a woman. It felt cheap to me--like one of the things that was cool in the first place was that the suit was totally genderless (I know, I know, the graphics at the time weren't at all what they are now, so it wasn't exactly an option, but still).


And I do agree with Sarkeesian that Zelda as Sheik is awesome, and deserving of her own kickass adventure.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on March 08, 2013, 09:25:39 AM
It also makes me think adventure games are kind of the black sheep in a lot of ways--never having been AS big as games like Mario and Zelda, they both could get away with new & different things (in this example, active female protags/rescuers/heroes), and are also not quite as recognized for those contributions.

In some aspects I see what you mean, KQIV was successful with a majority female cast of characters, without out being branded as girls game or the like. 

It is also bears pointing out the KQ series has had three damsels in distress, Valanice in KQ2, Rosella in KQ3, and Cassima gets the damsel treatment twice in 5 and 6. :P

On the subject though a "good" damsel in distress might be Grace Nakamura in Gabriel Knight, since she is a character in her own right and doesn't get kidnapped by the bad guys until the end of the game.  Not just as the video states, a goal to be reached.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on March 11, 2013, 02:18:50 PM
This seems relevant. :D
http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2013/03/donkey-kong-pauline-hack/
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Balinaeri on March 11, 2013, 04:24:20 PM
That's a great story.

And I love this quote:

Quote
I didn’t set out to push a feminist agenda, or try to make a statement. I just wanted to keep that little grin lit up on my daughter’s face every time we sit down to play games together.

And this as well:

Quote
Having kids is incredible. And having a daughter is something special. I get the opportunity to see the world through her eyes. And if this experience has taught me anything, it’s that the world could be just a bit more accommodating. And that if something as innocuous as having Mario be saved by Pauline brings out the crazy, maybe we aren’t as mature in our view of gender roles as we should be.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on March 11, 2013, 07:03:00 PM
Aww that's cute, naturally there is a serious business comment war on the article. :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on March 12, 2013, 12:51:52 AM
Quote
Gabriel Knight has some of the Damsel in Distress bits, but in the later episodes, Grace ends up rescuing him just as often as he rescues her.


Not really. I mean you do have to save Grace in the first game but it was a danger you put her into and it included another male character. Making it less "She is a damsel" and more that they kidnapped your two best friends.

Though the entire second game was Grace saving Gabriel and the third I never played.

Oddly enough I actually prefer Gabriel Knight 2 Grace to Gabriel Knight 1 Grace. I don't know why because the first games Grace should be more appealing (Afterall she is sarcastic and calls you out on your stupidity)... but the one in the second has... Grace I guess is the best way I can describe it. She is probably one of the few "Women" in videogames and by that I mean a woman who acts like you would expect a woman in her mid-30s to act.

Which in a world where games go out of their way to make sure they don't have women past the age of 20, that is rather huge.

I really hope she brings up tekken and how the series absolutely refuses to have any middle-aged women.

Quote
that if something as innocuous as having Mario be saved by Pauline brings out the crazy, maybe we aren’t as mature in our view of gender roles as we should be

I don't know, if I was playing "Pauline" where I play Pauline and my goal was to save Mario. Having him save me would be a twist... It being outright weird if Mario in this game was some sort of fat out of shape plumber.

Also Pauline? We are going back to the plotless days of videogames?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 12, 2013, 04:19:14 AM
To anyone reading this thread I don't think you'll be surprised that I'm not a fan of Anita's videos, though that's not to say I'm against feminism or anything.

So anyway, it was with a sense of dread that I watched this video thinking I'd probably find something in the video that would get me to roll my eyes during the rest of the video like I did with the "Lego for Girls" video.

Now that I've watched Part 1 of the Damsel in distress trope all I have to say is... huh... this is what all the fuss was about?

I mean the video isn't bad, but it's not good either and there's really nothing to agree or disagree on it, it's just... honestly, it's just kinda there, most of the video was just naming games in which a princess has to be saved and how she didn't like the trope.

Personally I don't see anything inherently the wrong with the trope though I got the feeling that neither does she so... yeah, all of that kickstarter funding all of that blind internet hate all of those extremely dangerous and juvenile threats... for this? Oh internet, you are the master of blowing things out of proportion.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on March 12, 2013, 05:07:39 AM
stika: to a certain extent I agree. I did enjoy the video and it did make some good points - I'm now much more aware of Damsel plots and kind of surprised how prevalent they were.

But this is kind of an obvious topic. Yes, it's a good thing people are discussing it, but for me it's boring, because yes, of course there are lots of Damsel plots, how could anyone have missed it? :S

Still, the fact there are people on the internet who threatened to do extremely nasty, misgynistic things to her just for talking about this stuff justifies what she's doing, to me.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 12, 2013, 05:36:22 AM
The problem here was 4chan, it got wind of her project and decided to mess with it.

And 4 chan is... well it's basically where all the racists, sexists, jerks and other adjectives and names I'm now allowed to use go
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 12, 2013, 08:06:06 AM
It is an obvious trope, but that's also kind of why it's a good place to start for a whole series of examinations of such things. If she started with something less known, out there, kind of esoteric, it would bring in some viewers, sure, but probably not as many new ones.

As said, I'm looking forward to Part 2 with more modern games and also games that flip the trope, hopefully there'll be more insight, etc, in that video.

And yes, either way, I support what she's doing. On a number of levels, but even if it was only because so many people decided to be such asshats about it in the first place. What that dad said about his swapping Pauline and Mario is very true: "And that if something as innocuous as having Mario be saved by Pauline brings out the crazy, maybe we aren’t as mature in our view of gender roles as we should be." (Good quote!)

Also, that story, aww :)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on March 12, 2013, 10:22:55 AM
Hah, yeah - personally, I thought Pauline saving Mario was delightful! 



Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on March 12, 2013, 10:46:39 AM
Honestly what would have made the Damsel discussion much better would have been if she also compared male and female damsels.

For example male damsels have a much higher expectation to help the protagonist and resist their bondings.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 12, 2013, 11:31:36 AM
It sounds like those sorts of things will be covered in Part 2. Though she did compare when the (male) protags are captured & imprisoned vs. when the (female) damsels are--typically the former gets to figure out how to escape while the latter is helpless until you show up to save the day.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 12, 2013, 12:01:52 PM
I can't believe people paid real money for this.  To say nothing of the subject matter, this is a youtube video.  Thousands of people make these for free every day, some of which are just as high quality as this.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on March 12, 2013, 12:36:13 PM
I can't believe people paid real money for this.  To say nothing of the subject matter, this is a youtube video.  Thousands of people make these for free every day, some of which are just as high quality as this.

Many of them have channels which consistently turn out videos, which I guess she can't do because there's only so much you can say about one fairly specific topic. Making feminist videos about tropes in videogames will get you a limited number of topics, whereas vlog channels will always have something to talk about.

Also, youtube *does* pay people with high subscriber numbers. So those high-quality videos? Totally paid for, just by someone else. All she did was shift the paying bit to the front of the process to minimise risk.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 12, 2013, 12:54:27 PM
Also, youtube *does* pay people with high subscriber numbers. So those high-quality videos? Totally paid for, just by someone else. All she did was shift the paying bit to the front of the process to minimise risk.

Fair enough.  Still though, the idea of people paying a fairly insane amount of money to someone for doing something that they would have done anyway for free--kinda silly, if you ask me. 

And yes, I am well aware of the irony here.   8)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Balinaeri on March 12, 2013, 01:00:59 PM
I can't believe people paid real money for this.  To say nothing of the subject matter, this is a youtube video.  Thousands of people make these for free every day, some of which are just as high quality as this.

Meh. And I can't believe people pay real money to see a movie with Will Ferrell in it. Or to own a Fiat. Or that anyone actually bought Myst, or The 7th Guest. To each his/her own. The video was very well researched, and she's obviously a highly educated woman.

While there was little in Part 1 that was new information to me, it was, as others have said, merely the introductory episode in this series. I'm looking forward to seeing what she has to say in parts 2 & 3.

I was impressed with her presentation. I've seen many similar things that were nothing more than emotional diatribes. She managed to present the information and her opinion without sermonizing or lecturing, and I respect that.

I don't know...on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give the first part probably a 7. If future parts are just more of the same, I'll likely lower the score for them, but I could raise the score as well, if they are informative.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on March 12, 2013, 01:25:16 PM
Quote
Or that anyone actually bought Myst, or The 7th Guest

You had to exist in the times Balinaeri. PC games were a different place back then and frankly 7th guest freekishly stands out as one of the better MORE THEN ONE puzzle games even today.

Which is very sad.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Balinaeri on March 12, 2013, 01:41:11 PM
Quote
Or that anyone actually bought Myst, or The 7th Guest

You had to exist in the times Balinaeri. PC games were a different place back then and frankly 7th guest freekishly stands out as one of the better MORE THEN ONE puzzle games even today.

Which is very sad.

I remember when 7th Guest came out. It was awful then, and it's awful now.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 12, 2013, 01:54:15 PM
On another note, I can't decide whether I'm amused or impressed at the skillfulness with which she has composed her outfit.  The flannel shirt says "Anything a man can do, I can do," but the pink color reasserts its femininity (slightly.)  The earrings, makeup, and carefully plucked eyebrows suggest that she cares about her appearance enough to conform to current standards of beauty, while at the same time, because of their combination with buttoned up flannel shirt, say "I'm well aware of the fact that I'm putting myself under the scrutiny of the male gaze, so here's what I am and am not allowing you to appreciate about my appearance."

Clever girl. 

*prepares for velociraptor attack*
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on March 12, 2013, 02:04:26 PM
I can't believe people paid real money for this.  To say nothing of the subject matter, this is a youtube video.  Thousands of people make these for free every day, some of which are just as high quality as this.

Clearly there was a demand for it.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 12, 2013, 02:08:17 PM
I can't believe people paid real money for this.  To say nothing of the subject matter, this is a youtube video.  Thousands of people make these for free every day, some of which are just as high quality as this.

Clearly there was a demand for it.

Indeed.  I guess I'm just wondering what aspects of production were aided by the addition of all that cash.  I haven't watched her other videos--is this one noticeably different or better in some way?

Maybe she bought new earrings and a new flannel?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 12, 2013, 02:11:48 PM
Okay, I've perused a few others.  The camera quality seems to have improved, and as far as I can see, the graphic design is all new.  So that's definitely something.  I'll be fair.  :)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on March 12, 2013, 03:31:48 PM
She got more money that she needed, that is for sure, but that is largely the result of people wanting to fight against the abuse that was thrown at her by the less savory parts of the internet.  Only one video is out though, and it is 23 minutes long and still only part 1 of covering one trope out of 5 total (I think). 

Plus since I didn't donate I get all this for free.  ;D
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 12, 2013, 03:57:49 PM
now that is one thing I really like about this show is how it completely backfired on those people ;D
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 12, 2013, 08:45:28 PM
Other things the money that came in did was pay for games, systems, research, enabling her to work fulltime, pay a producer to work fulltime, and I believe an additional writer part-time, expand on the number of planned episodes, and develop a curriculum to go along with it for educational use (also, I believe to be made available for free).

There are some details of it on her site somewhere.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on March 13, 2013, 05:51:21 AM
now that is one thing I really like about this show is how it completely backfired on those people ;D
Definitely some poetic justice there. :) All the abuse just demonstrated how much of a problem there is. :yes: It's too soon to know what impact her work will have, but hopefully it at least raises awareness of the need. Maybe it will inspire some people.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 13, 2013, 07:07:57 AM
The creator of the Gears of War series shares his thoughts on Anita Sarkeesian (http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/45150472512/anonymous-internet-boy-taliban-tropes)

I thought this was a very interesting read, not so much for what he said, but from the source it comes from, the creator of one of the biggest "guy" games, rushes in defense of Anita
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 13, 2013, 07:37:45 AM
That is an excellent blog post. I'm gonna go RT that!
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 13, 2013, 07:47:58 AM


with that said in the same thread I saw this, I also saw two videos from someone deconstructing Anita Sarkeesian and though his videos are obviously trying to push an Agenda (but then again, so is Anita) and in some cases he crosses the line into poor taste, but with that said he does raise some valid points, especially in part 2


I'm also saddened that despite Cliffy B's kind words, Anita will at one point or another talk about the Gears of War series, you can quote me on that
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 13, 2013, 07:53:14 AM
What exactly does he say her "Agenda" is?

And it's fair for her to examine this guy's creations, despite his words. He's not the only person who made those games, and even if he were, what he thinks and what his game presents aren't necessarily going to be the same thing. I love breaking cliches and tropes, but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of them played straight in Cognition or TSL, after all.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 13, 2013, 08:00:59 AM
Mostly that she is a conservative feminist that believes art by itself has no inherent value and instead is used as tool to "teach" people and as a result Kanye West's song "Monster" for example is only "tricking" people into thinking it's okay to a misogynist instead of accepting the song for what it is, an art form (one that widely regarded as a great song by both critics and the general rap community).

Moreover that she never addresses other forms of feminism, namely the sex positive feminism, or that she will delete videos, comments, or the even the "like" button if a video is not popular, if a comment is not to her liking or if quite simply, people don't like the video.

Which personally, i agree with all of that. With that said, as stated before, the video itself is pushing an agenda to discredit Anita and a lot of what was said needs to be taken with quite a bit of salt, but in this regard, I believe the video was spot on
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 13, 2013, 08:11:51 AM
I'm pretty sure the reason her videos have comments & ratings disabled is due to the extreme cyber bullying that has been levied against her.

Nothing I've seen from her comments on the value of art as art--but that's also not the point behind anything she's doing. Her goal is pretty specifically to examine these media for what they represent in terms of what they represent to the culture as a whole in regards to women. So, no, I wouldn't watch or read any of her work for an account of what the 'art' of a particular piece of media is. I'd go elsewhere for that.

In any case, I still agree ultimately with Clifford/Cliffy B's (whatever name he generally goes by) point: there is no reason she can't or shouldn't be able to do this work, research, and makes these videos. One's enjoyment or agreement to it notwithstanding, because that's personal taste.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 13, 2013, 08:18:58 AM
If that's the case then howcome her kickstarter video didn't have the ratings and comments disabled at first? Or at least, have them pending approval like her feminist frequency video do? Even if it was just to prevent cyber-bullying it does open the question to what gets approved and what doesn't

Was it wrong of the internet to bully Anita? Undoubtedly so, but I firmly believe she left that video unmodded on purpose which in itself allowed comments that would not normally be accepted into her Feminist Frequency videos be posted on her kickstarter video. After all, let's not forget that Anita herself went to 4chan, posted a link to her video there and asked for a "rational discussion" of all things, a rational discussion on 4chan? Come on now...

As for her views on art, that's kind of the issue, isn't it? If Venus di Milo were created today and if instead of a sculpture it were a movie or a song, what would her reaction be? Given her views on pornography (a video which has sense been removed by the way) she would have likely have made a video criticizing it and in the case o Kanye West's song, she missed the point of the song entirely, she claimed the song was fetishizing dead women, when in fact, the song was a stab at the music industry, criticizing said industry for being stale, a sort of still life if you will
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 13, 2013, 08:25:18 AM
I would imagine because the cyber bullying started *after* her Kickstarter launched, so before there wasn't a need to do so?

I don't see the problem in asking for a rational discussion anywhere. You may be less likely to get in some places than others, but asking for one, really? I fail to see the problem with that.

And to say "if the Venus di Milo were a movie or song instead of a sculpture"--that's a hypothetical you can't create a reasonable discussion around. That's changing the medium into something completely different. It's not like saying, if it were a drawing, that would at least be a similar medium; a movie or song is utterly different from a sculpture.

And as I don't know the Kanye West song, I can't really comment to that. But sure, it's possible she missed the point--that happens. Honestly, beyond the infamous Music Awards interruption & knowing up a Kardashian, I don't really know anything about Kanye West, much less his work.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 13, 2013, 08:33:21 AM
I would imagine because the cyber bullying started *after* her Kickstarter launched, so before there wasn't a need to do so?
But she's been making Feminist Frequency videos long before her kickstarter and those videos, from what I understand, always required every comment to be approved by the moderator before being posted.

Of course one could argue that this kickstarter was a personal project and as such she didn't feel the need to moderate the comments on said video, but it is still a stark contrast.


I don't see the problem in asking for a rational discussion anywhere. You may be less likely to get in some places than others, but asking for one, really? I fail to see the problem with that.

I suppose we'll have to disagree in this regard, but it's nothing too major I suppose

And to say "if the Venus di Milo were a movie or song instead of a sculpture"--that's a hypothetical you can't create a reasonable discussion around. That's changing the medium into something completely different. It's not like saying, if it were a drawing, that would at least be a similar medium; a movie or song is utterly different from a sculpture.
Fair enough, I probably didn't think that part of my argument all the way through  :P

And as I don't know the Kanye West song, I can't really comment to that. But sure, it's possible she missed the point--that happens. Honestly, beyond the infamous Music Awards interruption & knowing up a Kardashian, I don't really know anything about Kanye West, much less his work.
I believe this is the problem when rating 'art' even more so if you're not familiar with that particular art form, while I understand that she's looking at if from a conservative feminist perspective, I believe she should stick to the mediums she's more familiarized with in order to prevent this, after all, people will most often remember the bad, not the good.

Luckily, the overall public's perception of a videogame as a art form is... arguable at best, so that's not likely to occur in this new spin-off, unless of course she tries to tackle on "artistic games" in which case this may or may not happen again, hopefully it won't
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Delling on March 13, 2013, 08:44:34 AM
... a conservative feminist...
bwahahahahahahahaha... X'D

Oh, man... trust me when I say that for the US, Anita doesn't come anywhere CLOSE to what is usually regarded as "conservative"... In many circles in the States, "conservative" and "feminist" are essentially antithetical: hell, I bet she has the gall to wear PANTS (no, seriously, in the fundamentalist conservative high school my mother sent her children to, as a matter of moral rectitude, girls were required to wear skirts--to the extent that our English teacher once gave as an example of the term "deference", the story that when the pastor visits, she puts on a dress/skirt... in her own home, she changes out of comfortable clothing out of deference to a visiting man... and this was being touted as a GOOD thing. This isn't just restricted to my high school: other high schools in the same vein, Bob Jones University ::), and PCC have similar or even more extreme policies). In fact, one of the greatest victories of feminism (that it probably isn't even aware of) is actually the watered down and heavily diluted way in which it HAS actually managed to penetrate the Religious Right (it's really weird going to high school where the echoes of Christian Patriarchy (CP) and Feminism (don't alert the administration--they don't think it's there at all!) are actively duking it out ::)).

Also, "damsel in distress"? Conservatives (especially followers of CP) are all over that! It's like their raison d'etre. :P

Concerning the rest of this conversation: a woman stated an intention to develop a program discussing the portrayal of women in a particular medium... for this, she was threatened with murder and rape. There is no defense for that. That is subhuman behavior and we as a species would be better off without such individuals. <~~which I've been holding back and trying not to say for the whole run of this thread.

I had more (like point-by-point arguments), but I'm not going to bother. The former paragraph makes the point pretty damn clear as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 13, 2013, 08:53:46 AM
I believe now you're taking two words with entirely different meanings the word "conservative" doesn't have to necessarily apply to "Conservative US" or pastors, or religion.

Even within liberals you can have "conservative" liberals.

As for your example, I never claimed that our medium has gender equality nor did I try (or would try) to defend that
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Balinaeri on March 13, 2013, 08:57:31 AM
Ok, I have finally watched a few more of her videos. I have to say I came away more impressed than I expected. In fact, I agree with everything she says in her video comparing The Hunger Games Movie and the book. In fact, I had mentioned many of the same things to friends/acquaintances previously.

She does a much better job presenting her case than I did, but I would hope that would be the case. She's a professional at doing this after all, and when I was doing it, I wasn't trying to present a case, merely participating in a conversation about the film.

I also thought she was dead-on in her video on The Smurfette Principle. Still, however, I have the same criticism that I do of her DnD tropes video. She tends to ignore exceptions or counter examples that show growth. She briefly mentions Captain Janeway in the Smurfette Principel, but ignores the Battlestar Galactica reboot where they went out of their way to incorporate more strong female characters, even changing the gender of two popular characters from the original series.

In short, I like the fact that she's pointing out these issues, but feel she should give kudos to producers/writers/directors that have overcome them and been successful.

Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on March 13, 2013, 09:01:21 AM
The creator of the Gears of War series shares his thoughts on Anita Sarkeesian (http://dudehugespeaks.tumblr.com/post/45150472512/anonymous-internet-boy-taliban-tropes)

I thought this was a very interesting read, not so much for what he said, but from the source it comes from, the creator of one of the biggest "guy" games, rushes in defense of Anita

Yeah I saw that, and I believe he is being genuine, but I can't help but notice that the post came out after his sexist twitter debacle last week.

Oh and Balienaeri, she does do that from time to time, and I no the current series on videogames is going to explore good examples, in fact her next video will in part involve that.  I haven't seen all her videos but I know she has given praise to Buffy the Vampire Slayer in one of the videos I have watched.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 13, 2013, 09:03:52 AM
I hadn't heard of that, what happened?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on March 13, 2013, 09:11:04 AM
Like anything on twitter, it can quickly become a mess.  Basically he posted a dumb tweet, I think it was something to the effect of "PR girls are down for anything."

Some folks got mad and chaos ensued.  How malicious the tweet was is up to interpretation, but I personally was more annoyed with how he handled the situation, throwing out some pretty standard weak arguments and bashing the people who were upset with him.

In the scheme of thins it may be a "small" thing but it rubbed me the wrong way.  Especially when other game devs have proven they can be open to discussion on that sort of thing on twitter, a Gearbox dev recently didn't think a character in Borderlands 2 we wrote was racist, but he wanted to know why people felt that way.

http://kotaku.com/5981171/borderlands-2s-writer-says-hell-change-tiny-tina-if-she-conveys-racism-as-some-players-think-[update]
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 13, 2013, 09:21:51 AM
I just saw the video on that link. Personally I thought she was hilarious, but that's just me :P

as for that twitter thingy, it's a shame it happened, social media can be a dangerous palce
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on March 13, 2013, 09:26:32 AM
I never liked the guy anyway, just to point out my own bias in this issue.  Glad he wrote that blog post though, it is good to see developers invested in these sort of things.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 13, 2013, 10:00:51 AM
I like his games, Jazz Jackrabbit, Unreal Tournament and Gears of War, plus I thought his let's play of the Bulletstorm demo was pretty funny.

oh and there's always this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9q8oxkhnvI
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 13, 2013, 10:45:37 AM
I think what stika was suggesting earlier (and correct me if I'm wrong) was that the unbelievably positive consequences of the unmoderated Kickstarter comments may very well have been a calculated move on her part.  Essentially, that she knew what she was getting into would be controversial, and thus not only expected but HOPED to get lots of backlash in order to raise publicity (and presumably sympathy in the form of lots of dollars.)  It's really not nearly as unlikely a scenario as you might think--and if that's the case, it was a brilliant tactic that was utterly successful.  So good on her, for that.

Also, why can't one initiate a hypothetical discussion about the nature of art by using Venus-de-Milo-as-song-or-movie as a jumping off point?  "A sculpture is utterly different than a song or movie."  A comment like that would have gotten you laughed out of the cafe 100 years ago during the modern art scene in Europe.  In fact, one of the prevailing ideas of Modernism in art is precisely that all of the arts are fundamentally connected, if not formally, then conceptually and spiritually (spiritually here meaning the inner drive of the artist to create, not anything having to do with religion or faith.)  Read a little Kandinsky some time.   8)

In the case of the Venus de Milo, sure--the physical form of a sculpture is different than a song or movie, but the concept of the idealized female that it represents can be recreated and explored in any media.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on March 13, 2013, 11:22:51 AM
I don't see the problem in asking for a rational discussion anywhere. You may be less likely to get in some places than others, but asking for one, really? I fail to see the problem with that.

I think what stika was suggesting earlier (and correct me if I'm wrong) was that the unbelievably positive consequences of the unmoderated Kickstarter comments may very well have been a calculated move on her part.  Essentially, that she knew what she was getting into would be controversial, and thus not only expected but HOPED to get lots of backlash in order to raise publicity (and presumably sympathy in the form of lots of dollars.)

That's how I took it, as well. Yes, there's nothing wrong with asking for rational feedback, but what are the chances she was naive enough to expect such a thing from 4chan users? Even if that was the motive, though, it's not necessarily wrong.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on March 13, 2013, 11:39:36 AM
It was hardly just 4chan.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 13, 2013, 11:43:33 AM
I believe she knew what she was doing, though then again, maybe that was her intention: To show everyone with gender issues in gaming and on the internet is in fact MUCH worse then we thought.

Now to be fair, I'm not saying it was wrong of her to do this, if she did thought of this then she's very intelligent and do I support her intentions? Of course
Do I like the presentation or her specific views on it? Meh, some I do, some I don't

Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on March 13, 2013, 11:44:19 AM
It was hardly just 4chan.
I wasn't saying it was - I was just responding to Katie's response to this:
After all, let's not forget that Anita herself went to 4chan, posted a link to her video there and asked for a "rational discussion" of all things, a rational discussion on 4chan? Come on now...

Also, while this is true:
I believe now you're taking two words with entirely different meanings the word "conservative" doesn't have to necessarily apply to "Conservative US" or pastors, or religion.

Even within liberals you can have "conservative" liberals.

As for your example, I never claimed that our medium has gender equality nor did I try (or would try) to defend that
The words conservative and liberal have (at least in the US) taken on some very strong connotations that have little to do with their actual meanings. :-\
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on March 13, 2013, 11:45:21 AM
Quote
To show everyone with gender issues in gaming and on the internet is in fact MUCH worse then we thought

It really doesn't. At least not to anyone who knows how the internet works.

Then again I don't think Cyberbullying is as big a deal as people think either. It only hurts people who are so depressed that they intentionally seek out negative things about themselves.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 13, 2013, 11:46:05 AM

Also, while this is true:
I believe now you're taking two words with entirely different meanings the word "conservative" doesn't have to necessarily apply to "Conservative US" or pastors, or religion.

Even within liberals you can have "conservative" liberals.

As for your example, I never claimed that our medium has gender equality nor did I try (or would try) to defend that
The words conservative and liberal have (at least in the US) taken on some very strong connotations that have little to do with their actual meanings. :-\

Yeah I suppose it might be a cultural thing, I guess I'll have to find a better word for it  :-\
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on March 13, 2013, 11:50:45 AM
It's annoying when you can't use the correct word because its meaning has been subverted. :-\
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on March 13, 2013, 01:08:01 PM
Quote
To show everyone with gender issues in gaming and on the internet is in fact MUCH worse then we thought

It really doesn't. At least not to anyone who knows how the internet works.

Then again I don't think Cyberbullying is as big a deal as people think either. It only hurts people who are so depressed that they intentionally seek out negative things about themselves.
Keep in mind that you don't know people's trauma. Saying you think they should be gang-raped repeatedly and then shot can be very unpleasant to a lot of people.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 13, 2013, 01:15:21 PM
indeed, that is something I can't help but respect her, it takes a lot of courage to face up to so many people like that
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 13, 2013, 02:03:47 PM
Then again I don't think Cyberbullying is as big a deal as people think either. It only hurts people who are so depressed that they intentionally seek out negative things about themselves.

I'm not sure I can begin to say how much I disagree with this. But if I had to guess, I would guess that you've never experienced bullying.

I'm not a person who suffers from depression, or ever has, nor do I seek out negativity. That said, did it effect me when a group of girls who didn't like me tried to get my entire 5th grade class to participate in an April Fool's Day joke on me? Did it effect me when the entire lunch table I had been sitting in 8th grade at moved tables just to try and get rid of me and I spent the next few months eating lunch in my English teacher's classroom instead? Did it effect me to have my peers mock me, call me names, and make me feel generally friendless throughout middle school?

Yes. You're damn right it did. And this was at a time when the internet wasn't there to allow people to additionally mock me on Facebook, Twitter, or other places where anyone could see, anonymously comment, endlessly mock me to the point where there was no escape.

So yes, cyberbullying (and regular bullying) IS a big deal. It IS wrong. It may not be anything that's happened to you before, and that's great, I'm happy you've not had to deal with anything like it. But don't assume the people it happens to are seeking it out, or that people aren't actually hurt by it. As Deloria said, you don't know them or what they've been through or how much they can take. And it is never okay to say things like a person, anyone, deserves to be hurt, mocked, killed, raped, or anything of that sort.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 13, 2013, 03:19:40 PM
I'm sorry you went through that, Katie, no one should be bullied and I say that as someone who was on both ends of the spectrum
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on March 13, 2013, 03:25:34 PM
Cyberbullying (or any form of bullying, for that matter): legally, it may be a gray area, but morally, it's just black.

Katie, I hope those people who bullied you get to see how much of a success you are now. :yes:
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 13, 2013, 04:02:59 PM
#WINNING

Thanks guys. It sucked at the time, a lot, but I believe I've come out a stronger and better person for it. Nonetheless, my story isn't everyone's and there are far too many people, especially young people, whose stories of bullying have turned tragic. And those are just the ones we've heard about--there are always more stories like that out there, and it's just wrong that it happens at all.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Balinaeri on March 13, 2013, 04:10:21 PM
Katie,
I'm sorry you had to go through that. A lot of us experienced similar things. Most of us not as bad as yours, but some worse. And as you say, some with tragic consequences.

It can't help at the time, but today you can take solace in the fact that most of your tormenters are likely a) in jail, b) working at gas stations, or c) not working at all. (At least that's the case for mine...I only assume it's the case for yours.) And, as others have said, you have achieved, despite, or perhaps because of what you had to go through.

My hat's off to you.

You reap what you sow.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on March 13, 2013, 05:12:15 PM
One more thing: Anonymous cyberbullying is one thing, but this is a woman who is a highly prolific youtuber and whom people would recognise in RL. She has actual reason to fear for her life when the entire internet starts targeting her and makes it known that raping or killing this woman is an okay thing to do for society.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 13, 2013, 06:08:01 PM
I'm a little sad that my awesome snotty art post hasn't yet been addressed.  Everyone seems more interested in "staying on topic."  Lame.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on March 13, 2013, 06:15:01 PM
Sorry, Lamb. I guess nobody wants to argue with the expert. We're not worthy! :bow:

Better? :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on March 13, 2013, 08:09:20 PM
Controversy sells.  Any person with a modicum of intelligence knows that - and, even if it's unwanted and a bit annoying, the best revenge is using it to your advantage. 

+1 for Tropes vs. Women.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 13, 2013, 09:47:09 PM
Living well is the best revenge!
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 13, 2013, 11:50:35 PM
Sorry, Lamb. I guess nobody wants to argue with the expert. We're not worthy! :bow:

Better? :P

A little.  But you're facebook friends with me, so you know my background.  Rather than having my greatness acknowledged by someone who already knows it, I usually prefer the slow realization of it that happens with those who are less familiar with my work.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on March 14, 2013, 06:58:34 AM
Does it help that I know your background from outside FB (from the IA forums)? :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Delling on March 14, 2013, 08:36:59 AM
Katie,
I'm sorry you had to go through that. A lot of us experienced similar things. Most of us not as bad as yours, but some worse. And as you say, some with tragic consequences.

It can't help at the time, but today you can take solace in the fact that most of your tormenters are likely a) in jail, b) working at gas stations, or c) not working at all. (At least that's the case for mine...I only assume it's the case for yours.) And, as others have said, you have achieved, despite, or perhaps because of what you had to go through.

My hat's off to you.

You reap what you sow.

Despite. It's always despite. Take it from someone who knows.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on March 14, 2013, 04:51:40 PM
I'm going to have to disagree.  It's not always despite.  If you think that, you're wallowing in self-pity.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: LadyTerra on March 14, 2013, 06:55:40 PM
Exactly.  Would you have done as well as you have in your life if you didn't have people putting you down and getting angry enough to prove them wrong?

Personally, I don't think anyone has it perfect in school.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 15, 2013, 04:12:04 PM

Personally, I don't think anyone has it perfect in school.

I did.  I had all the friends, all the grades, and dated all the girls.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Delling on March 15, 2013, 06:45:59 PM

Personally, I don't think anyone has it perfect in school.

I did.  I had all the friends, all the grades, and dated all the girls.

That explains so much about your entitled behavior, Lamb. ::)


I'm going to have to disagree.  It's not always despite.  If you think that, you're wallowing in self-pity.


Bt
Uhm, no. Quite the opposite. Look at the context again. To say that you succeeded DESPITE the harassment and bullying of others means that the bullying did not make you better. You simply were better. My point is that people make a big deal about how giving kids a hard time builds character. That is BS. Time and again research in education demonstrates just how much so it is: we build confidence by building competencies and a positive, realistic self-image--confidence and a positive self-image are two things bullying destroys.

If we were to claim "you succeeded because you were bullied", we are saying "being treated like s*** helped you to make yourself better!" ::)

If we claim "you succeeded despite being bullied", we are saying "being treated like s*** was a detrimental negative thing that happened to you... and you succeeded anyway, good for you."

My claim is actually far more self-affirming and positive; the opposite claim amounts to bully-justifying.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 15, 2013, 10:47:08 PM

Uhm, no. Quite the opposite. Look at the context again. To say that you succeeded DESPITE the harassment and bullying of others means that the bullying did not make you better. You simply were better. My point is that people make a big deal about how giving kids a hard time builds character. That is BS. Time and again research in education demonstrates just how much so it is: we build confidence by building competencies and a positive, realistic self-image--confidence and a positive self-image are two things bullying destroys.

If we were to claim "you succeeded because you were bullied", we are saying "being treated like s*** helped you to make yourself better!" ::)

If we claim "you succeeded despite being bullied", we are saying "being treated like s*** was a detrimental negative thing that happened to you... and you succeeded anyway, good for you."

My claim is actually far more self-affirming and positive; the opposite claim amounts to bully-justifying.

People who start posts with a snotty "Uhm, no," are begging for a kick to the crotch.

Also, way to miss Bt's point.  Read LadyTerra's post; she gets at the heart of the matter much more succinctly than your whiny little tirade.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on March 15, 2013, 11:52:21 PM
Quote
My claim is actually far more self-affirming and positive; the opposite claim amounts to bully-justifying

I think a more important claim to try to shoot down is whether or not being bullies gives you more tools to deal with bullying then not.

Which I think frankly being a strong person, because you weren't shot down by bullying, probably gives you better tools then someone who felt the need to reaffirm themselves because someone always screamed in their ears about what a loser they were.

Mind you I still can't take all this seriously.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Delling on March 16, 2013, 04:54:08 AM
People who start posts with a snotty "Uhm, no," are begging for a kick to the crotch.

Also, way to miss Bt's point.  Read LadyTerra's post; she gets at the heart of the matter much more succinctly than your whiny little tirade.

Ecce, argumentum ad hominem ab Lambonio ibi. Quel surpris. ::)

In fairness, to LadyTerra's post, I didn't address it because there is some credence to "hardship causes strength", but life is full of hardship without adding bullying on top of it. Do people living below the poverty line need bullies to push them to improve? Or children living with abusive and/or negligent parents? Really?

It is entirely possible to push people to improve and, yes, even be hard on them and demand more than they're presently giving without having to demean them.

I think a more important claim to try to shoot down is whether or not being bullies gives you more tools to deal with bullying then not.

Which I think frankly being a strong person, because you weren't shot down by bullying, probably gives you better tools then someone who felt the need to reaffirm themselves because someone always screamed in their ears.
Actually that is a good point. Going back to, you know, actual educational psychology research, victims of bullying have all of the attendant stresses and stressors of being in a minority and can be prone to PTSD, depression, lack of motivation, etc.

There is some evidence to suggest that students with a very high self-esteem who are either already entirely self-affirming or receive affirmation from an external source (usually a significant adult in their lives) can shrug off some bullying. I doubt this means they are entirely immune to the adverse effects of verbal abuse, probably requires more targeted attacks than whatever the researchers used... so, basically, it suggests that the longer you go without bullying and more solidly you're built up internally/emotionally as a person, the higher your effective defenses are.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on March 16, 2013, 08:09:40 AM

Uhm, no. Quite the opposite. Look at the context again. To say that you succeeded DESPITE the harassment and bullying of others means that the bullying did not make you better. You simply were better. My point is that people make a big deal about how giving kids a hard time builds character. That is BS. Time and again research in education demonstrates just how much so it is: we build confidence by building competencies and a positive, realistic self-image--confidence and a positive self-image are two things bullying destroys.

If we were to claim "you succeeded because you were bullied", we are saying "being treated like s*** helped you to make yourself better!" ::)

If we claim "you succeeded despite being bullied", we are saying "being treated like s*** was a detrimental negative thing that happened to you... and you succeeded anyway, good for you."

My claim is actually far more self-affirming and positive; the opposite claim amounts to bully-justifying.

People who start posts with a snotty "Uhm, no," are begging for a kick to the crotch.

Also, way to miss Bt's point.  Read LadyTerra's post; she gets at the heart of the matter much more succinctly than your whiny little tirade.
This post contains a reference to physical violence (which somebody "begged for"), strengthens a weak argument by belittling the opposition and even contains a neat little nod to high-school insults with "snotty".

Good work, Lamb! You've successfully written a meta-bullying post. *slow clap*
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on March 16, 2013, 08:31:46 AM
Um, yes.  Your wall of text and latin quotes still don't cover up the fact that you wallow in your poor, oppressed and bullied past.  Get over it.

I did.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on March 16, 2013, 09:42:07 AM
Um, yes.  Your wall of text and latin quotes still don't cover up the fact that you wallow in your poor, oppressed and bullied past.  Get over it.

I did.


Bt

Not a Latin quote: he made it himself. ;)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: GrahamRocks! on March 16, 2013, 10:13:22 AM
I was going to ask what it meant.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on March 16, 2013, 10:21:31 AM
Basically "Wow, an ad-hominem attack from Lambonius.  What a surprise."


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 16, 2013, 10:26:53 AM
Basically "Wow, an ad-hominem attack from Lambonius.  What a surprise."


Bt

You forgot to translate "ad hominem."  ;)

There's a whole lot of tl;dr in this thread.   8)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Numbers on March 16, 2013, 01:17:39 PM
Somebody in this thread needs to let loose a violent outburst. The rest of us need the entertainment.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on March 16, 2013, 01:18:20 PM
Ad hominem: a commercial for a product whose name sounds like the name of a different product.

Seriously, be nice, people. There's no need to belittle people who disagree with you.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: LadyTerra on March 16, 2013, 01:40:32 PM
Delling, I never intended to imply that bullying isn't bad.  It is.  I'm pretty sure everyone in this forum knows first hand how terrible it is (except for Lamb  ;)).  Just because you became a better person doesn't mean the fact you were bullied wasn't bad.  Bad things happen.  You can't expect to go through life being perfectly happy and secure.  There's always going to be someone out there who wants to be a jerk for some odd reason.  The question is how you deal with it.  Some people can, and some can't.

Besides, you never know how well a defense works without testing it.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on March 16, 2013, 02:22:33 PM
If hardship can make you stronger, I don't think the source of the hardship really matters. And good coming from bad in no way justifies the bad. I do think the response to the hardship is very much dependent on the person, though. The same hardship that makes one person stronger might break someone else.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on March 16, 2013, 02:29:39 PM
Lady Terra sums it up nicely.

I do believe that some people tend to wallow in the pains of their past, instead of moving on.  I maintain my it's not always despite - if you choose to believe that angle, you'll always remain the victim.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 16, 2013, 02:43:10 PM
And, let's indeed try not to start bullying each other over who's method of dealing with bullying is best, shall we? However anyone deals with it and gets through it, whatever works for them, however they want to think about it during or after, it's all equally valid.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 16, 2013, 04:11:36 PM
We certainly have gotten a fair bit off topic.  I choose to blame Blackthorne.  Now, let's all swing the conversation back to Anita's outfit choices.  Go!
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on March 16, 2013, 05:07:22 PM
There are degrees of bullying and there are degrees of hardship. Not all of them make you stronger. People claiming this absolute "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" have likely never experienced really, really terrible things. Trauma can just break you. And sometimes, in order to get over trauma like that, you have to make your own catharsis. And *that* might make you stronger, but the trauma that made you get to that point probably didn't. That was your own initiative.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 16, 2013, 05:22:57 PM
Trauma can just break you. And sometimes, in order to get over trauma like that, you have to make your own catharsis.

My catharsis is riling up strangers on internet message boards.  Better allow it and coddle me though; you don't know what I've been through.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on March 16, 2013, 05:25:40 PM
Unfortunately, we don't have to be the only ones to enable you. :) There are other message boards on which you can enact all your trollish whims. :)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 16, 2013, 05:26:34 PM
Unfortunately, we don't have to be the only ones to enable you. :) There are other message boards on which you can enact all your trollish whims. :)

They're all bullies though.  They banned me for acting like a sarcastic ass.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on March 16, 2013, 05:31:34 PM
So, I saw this lady hacked Zelda so you can play as Zelda rescuing Link.

http://kotaku.com/5990946/she-hacked-the-legend-of-zelda-so-it-now-stars-zelda-saving-link

Heh - that's fun.

While I think it's kind of fun and tongue in cheek to do this - or hack Donkey Kong to have Pauline rescue Mario.... I think it'd be straight up fun to have a Zelda game where you played as Zelda.  I mean, a brand new game.... I think a Zelda game, where you play Zelda, in the style of Link To The Past - would be an awesome game.  Gotta admit - it'd be good having to get Zelda bows and arrows, and sword powerups.  Plus, the whole story-line could be different from a traditional Link adventure.

I like all these hacks - but let's get someone to make a full on game now, eh?


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 16, 2013, 05:33:49 PM
I saw that too.  Wasn't there a Princess Peach game a while ago?  I'm pretty sure it was essentially all pink and flowery and over-the-top girly, though.

This though--well, any excuse to go replay the original Zelda is fine by me.  :)

EDIT:

http://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Princess_Peach (http://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Princess_Peach)

There--that's the one I was thinking of!  Anybody played it?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: LadyTerra on March 16, 2013, 06:45:41 PM
There were already some official non-existent games on a barely known console where Zelda was the protagonist rescuing Link.  They totally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-i_games_from_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series#Zelda:_The_Wand_of_Gamelon) don't (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-i_games_from_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series#Zelda.27s_Adventure) exist.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 16, 2013, 06:51:07 PM
I can't see a game with Zelda as the protagonist being done well in today's industry, especially given the crap-sandwiches that are Nintendo products nowadays.

I'd see it falling victim to one of two all-to-common stereotypes:

1) It'd be excessively girly, with lots of unnecessarily "feminine" elements trying to hammer us over the head with the fact that we're playing as the princess for a change.  (See Super Princess Peach as an example of that approach.)

Or 2) It'd be a total GIRL-POWER-a-thon, with an ultra-feminist approach.  Sassy, headstrong, always metaphorically giving the finger to her male counterparts, etc.  The stereo-typical aggressive strong-willed female lead.

Either way--blech.

**Actually, now that I think about it, I could see a third possibility, also terrible.  They could go do a Metroid: Other M thing and make Zelda incredibly weak-willed, whiny, and beholden to her male superiors.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 16, 2013, 06:53:49 PM
I'd like a game where you play Zelda. She's such an integral part of the games--I mean, hell, we call them the ZELDA games, not the Link ones, and he's the consistent playable character!

A game with Zelda doing the Sheik thing would be awesome. That's the Zelda one I played the most of, so while she apparently was an active and cool character in Wind Waker, too, I didn't play it & can't speak to it.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on March 16, 2013, 06:54:59 PM
Yeah the best example of the second is Other M which somehow manages to somehow be less girl power then you would suspect.

Anyhow the reason I cannot see Zelda as the protagonist is mostly because they would probably just turn her into Link. In fact that is what the games (made by third party developers) do to Zelda. They just make her a carbon copy of Link except it is Zelda.

I would kinda like to play a game about Zelda with all the sort of magic and manipulation she does being a large part of the game.

Quote
A game with Zelda doing the Sheik thing would be awesome. That's the Zelda one I played the most of, so while she apparently was an active and cool character in Wind Waker, too, I didn't play it & can't speak to it

Ok I can see that and it would definately be different. Mind you, Zelda is not a pack mule.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: LadyTerra on March 16, 2013, 06:57:16 PM
I just pictured a tactics game where you play as Peach directing Toads against Bowser's troops.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on March 16, 2013, 07:13:01 PM
Terra, that would be hilarious and awesome. I guess Peach got Merryweather's gift (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=13288.msg352297#msg352297) of tactical and strategic knowledge ;)

And playing Zelda as Sheik helping Link behind the scenes would be really cool. The flipside of Ocarina of Time, basically (and maybe without an ending where she's kidnapped the minute she puts her dress back on  ::) )
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 16, 2013, 11:28:03 PM
This video brings up a lot of solid points in support of the "Anita is full of s***" stance.

Now, to be fair, there are a few instances of bad cherry picking, where this guy is actually missing the context of what she's saying, but there are other instances, like her laughable dismissal of sexual dimorphism, that are right on the money.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJeX6F-Q63I
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on March 17, 2013, 12:21:55 AM
The problem is that it was ultimately someone who isn't in the culture trying to research the culture rather quickly.

Once again... Listing Elaine and a Damsel.

I am going to have to watch that video eventually and every second I hear something terrible about it just makes me groan.

Mind you so far I don't like the counter video. It makes a good point and then it rants a bit.

OHH DEAR GOSH! Nevermind that video opens my eyes... Anita doesn't know what she is talking about.

And now I HAVE to watch stupid Anita's video because I cannot allow drivel to go by uncritiqued. I'll wait until Damsels are done.

...

Also I want to play Zelda's Strategy game.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 17, 2013, 06:40:14 AM
There were already some official non-existent games on a barely known console where Zelda was the protagonist rescuing Link.  They totally (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-i_games_from_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series#Zelda:_The_Wand_of_Gamelon) don't (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-i_games_from_The_Legend_of_Zelda_series#Zelda.27s_Adventure) exist.
I actually played the third game in that series for the CD-I it was actually not that bad
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on March 17, 2013, 06:21:15 PM
The counter-video makes some decent points but doesn't seem to realise that there is a difference between a game or film portraying something, and that thing happening in real life.

I can't think of a decent example, but let's say there's a film in which a woman gives up her career to have kids and is super happy she did and looks up to her husband who's the breadwinner. In real life there are women who don't particularly want a career but who do want a family, and want to stay at home all day looking after their children. This is fine. But when this is portrayed in a film - and when this becomes the normal, go-to way to portray women in films - this creates a perception that women should give up their jobs and become housewives, and that they're weird and immoral if they don't.

So when he says that these games argue that doctors shouldn't help people? Nah.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 17, 2013, 06:32:53 PM
Well, the guy clearly thinks that feminism in general is stupid, and comes at the topic from the attitude that he's going to try and find as much fault with her arguments as possible.  In so doing, he makes a few really stupid points and comes off as whiny and bitter, which really undermines the value of his video as a "serious" counter to Anita's.  However, like I said, he does highlight a number of actual flaws in her research and arguments, and for that, this video has some merit.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on March 17, 2013, 06:43:31 PM
Quote
when this is portrayed in a film - and when this becomes the normal, go-to way to portray women in films - this creates a perception that women should give up their jobs and become housewives, and that they're weird and immoral if they don't.

Does it create the perception, or is that just someone's insight?

Also, I hate the "shaming" of women who choose to stay home, keep the house and raise a family.  There's just as much nobility in that as going out and having a career. 

Also, for men, there's just as much nobility in doing the same thing - staying home, keeping the house and raising the family.

People put a lot of features onto tropes that don't always truly exist - it's just their own warped perspective on it.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on March 17, 2013, 07:57:54 PM
Quote
let's say there's a film in which a woman gives up her career to have kids and is super happy she did and looks up to her husband who's the breadwinner.


I have heard of that movie. It was done to make the boss seem evil because she doesn't respect her decision to leave her high profile career.

I also seen an episode of the Cosby Show that dealt with it. It concluded that there is nothing wrong with being a housewife (Mind you female main character in the show has ever been a housewife to my knowledge).

The ONLY reverse I've seen is a movie where a woman ends up with her sisters baby and tries to essentially live the "Wholesome family picture" with just her and her new baby, but she was a working woman at heart and starts a baby food buisness. I left a LOT of details out, important details, but I only wanted to list the exception I heard of.

Quote
.  In so doing, he makes a few really stupid points and comes off as whiny and bitter

I think the real issue is that he doesn't have as much "counter arguements" as he thinks he does. Notice how much time he spends on single points that could have been concluded in single sentences.

As well I can pick out times he doesn't understand her points either.

For example he mistakes strong in the essay (that is likely refering to physical strength) to strong in her talking about Dinosaur Planet (which is refering to someone mentally and competently strong).

It is moments like these that I though the video was rubbish for the most part but the few good points he had concerns me.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Balinaeri on March 18, 2013, 06:15:59 AM
Mona Lisa Smile has some characters just like that. In it, Julia Roberts teaches at an all girl college in the 50s. She's the new "liberal influence". She has trouble with the fact that some of her students just want to be moms and wives. Julia Stiles character ends up being a huge disappointment to her by doing just that.

Of course, she does have her influences. Kirsten Dunst goes from not caring at all about education or career to being a career-minded professional.

Also good performances by Maggie Gyllenhaal and Gennifer Goodwin.

The movie is so-so. It comes off as exceptionally preachy at times. But it's interesting in that in the end, the characters all end up making their own choices and not being shoe-horned into predetermined roles.


On the subject of staying home with the kids, I heard a motivational speaker say this once, and it kind of stuck with me. He said, "Most women want to stay home with their kids, and we men know that. Why do we know it? Because we want to stay home with the kids, too."

He got boos after the first part, then shocked looks and muted applause after the second. Anyway, he did it deliberately to get you to think about what it is that you really want (whether you're a man or a woman), and not to settle for what others tell you that you want.

Finally, tangentially, I can't help but wonder what Anita would think of this game: http://scarletblade.aeriagames.com/ (parts of the website are NSFW)

Hey, at least they aren't damsels in distress. ;-)

Yes, I'm joking, a bit, to lighten the mood. She'd hate the game, and well she should. This is a totally different trope than Damsels in Distress, and one I hope she explores. I don't know a witty turn of phrase for it, but it's when women characters can only be heroes if they're also sex objects. Think some of the Lara Croft games, only imagine her doing her schtick while wearing bikini-mail, or even less.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 18, 2013, 07:39:59 AM
Oh wow, that part where he takes Anita's master thesis and shows it contradicts with her video, admittedly her words in the thesis may have been taken out of context, but still... yikes
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on March 18, 2013, 10:15:02 AM
Okay I am only 2 minutes into that video and already it is giving me a headache, can someone give me a ballpark about when the "good" parts start?  So far this video has completely missed the point.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on March 18, 2013, 10:53:00 AM
Okay I am only 2 minutes into that video and already it is giving me a headache, can someone give me a ballpark about when the "good" parts start?  So far this video has completely missed the point.

The second half is better.  Pretty much in general, once he gets off of the stupid "damsel punching baddie in the nuts" thing, his analysis of some of the real flaws in her research gets going.  Like I said, it's not perfect, and he comes off as whiny and spiteful.  But there are a few good points.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 18, 2013, 11:54:39 AM
Okay I am only 2 minutes into that video and already it is giving me a headache, can someone give me a ballpark about when the "good" parts start?  So far this video has completely missed the point.

The second half is better.  Pretty much in general, once he gets off of the stupid "damsel punching baddie in the nuts" thing, his analysis of some of the real flaws in her research gets going.  Like I said, it's not perfect, and he comes off as whiny and spiteful.  But there are a few good points.
I think this is the major problem with her detractors, most of them come off as Whiny, spiteful or as if they're pushing an agenda (usually said agenda being to discredit her), which is a shame because many raise valid points, but they can't seem to set their feelings aside
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on March 18, 2013, 12:34:36 PM
Skipped ahead to about the 10 minute mark.  It is still pretty clear the point is flying over this guy's head.

Continuing on I am seeing the same old tired arguments, there are more male characters because of the market demand, judging her appearance, etc. 

Everything about this video is on par with your average youtube comment argument.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on March 18, 2013, 12:40:29 PM
Yeah - he completely missed the point about objectification. :-\

Oh wow, that part where he takes Anita's master thesis and shows it contradicts with her video, admittedly her words in the thesis may have been taken out of context, but still... yikes
That's from a different video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on March 18, 2013, 02:36:57 PM
yeah, I saw that video, that was the video I commented here before (though I never actually posted it).

I do feel he raises some good points, but he's obviously pushing an Agenda, though according to him, so is Anita... and he might be right
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on March 18, 2013, 03:02:45 PM
What do you consider his good points?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on April 01, 2013, 06:02:02 PM
Well finally seen Anita's video earlier then I planned too (due to heaping criticism) and in the end...

I agreed with almost everything she said, while I think her examples are weak I don't really have too much to say.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on April 01, 2013, 09:27:11 PM
She stuck to older game examples for the first half of the video, part 2 will cover more modern examples.  Plus I think she was going for widely recognized cases.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on May 28, 2013, 08:01:24 PM
Thought I'd bump this thread since her next video is out. It is a downer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqs

I enjoyed this one more than the last since it deals with a lot of the faults of dark n gritty modern games, with many of them trying to be mature but in the end coming off as anything but.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on May 28, 2013, 09:46:10 PM
Thanks! Was just watching this one as well. It's kinda late here so I need to collect my thoughts on it before responding further. But this after a talk I went to tonight about #1ReasonWhy made for an interesting double header of sorts.

Also, I look forward to seeing Part 3 and hearing about more exceptions to the Damsel trope--including Elaine Marley!
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Balinaeri on May 29, 2013, 07:59:23 AM
Ok, I watched the video. It is a downer. In fact, I can see examples of the Refrigerator Damsel in some of my favorite games. Never thought about that before.

This one was more of an eye-opener to me, for that very reason. While I was critical of the first video because I felt that it didn't really say anything new, this one made me think a bit more about my own gaming experiences.

I wonder what she thinks of player-controlled shared worlds like Second Life? There is quite a lot of violence against women there, and damselization and objectification of various kinds. But, this doesn't come from a cadre of game developers, but from the players themselves. This seems more disturbing as it means that we actually seek this in our escapism.

The truly sad point about that is that a world like Second Life could be the epitome of what she describes as the usefulness of video games to better ourselves. And, in fact, some do that. But a simple exploration reveals a huge amount of stereotypical and degrading behavior with women clearly defined as subservient sexual objects.

I need to watch it again, and think more on this before I have more detailed thoughts.

Also, if we can discuss this in a non-misogynistic way, I'd like to bring up her appearance. She's clearly quite intelligent, and I don't think she does anything accidentally, so I'm wondering what she's trying to say with her choices there. But I can also see that such a discussion is tangential at best, and might get quite heated, so we can move it to a separate thread or drop it entirely. I'm fine with either.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on May 29, 2013, 09:38:01 AM
I'm extremely wary of discussing her appearance for a few reasons (though I agree on nothing is accidental). One, the chances of it getting heated and/or misogynistic are pretty high, regardless of best intentions. Two, her appearance ultimately does not reflect and should not affect the topics she's discussing or bringing up. Which brings me to three, that yes, it is tangential to the topics at hand here & in her videos. So...I'm ultimately going to say let's not discuss that.

I haven't played a lot of the games she focused on in this video, but yeah, the sections where she described the basic plot of several games in row with exactly the same phrases were illuminating. Interestingly, I don't think I found the video as much of a downer as you & Bludshot say you did. It's a letdown that so many games do these things even today, but I wasn't all that surprised by it being so prevalent. Some of the terms were new (the Refrigerator Damsel in particular, though I instantly saw what she meant and keyed into how often that's used), and I didn't realize the 'please kill me so I won't be a monster' thing was happening quite so much. Again, these aren't games I've played or am familiar with for the most part. So they aren't plots I had previous knowledge of, and yet, I'm not really surprised by this trend, whereas you both seem to be more surprised, and at least in Balinaeri's case, are even familiar with the games brought up in her video.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Balinaeri on May 29, 2013, 12:33:48 PM
Ok, Katie. I do agree with all of what you said. I'll drop the idea of talking about her appearance. Forget I brought it up. It's my psych minor going into overdrive, I guess. :)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on May 29, 2013, 02:03:16 PM
This one is really disturbing to me, especially as I was unfamiliar with most of the games she talked about. I guess I'm familiar with the fridge damsel concept, though I had no idea how pervasive it was. The use of violence against women is a really cheap (i.e. not requiring any actual character/relationship/plot development) way of tapping into men's (can't speak for women) primal fear and bringing out rage. I can't imagine anything worse than something like that being done to my family. I liked how she pointed out that this has a cyclic effect of limiting men's perception of the options for dealing with such tragedy.

This episode was a lot less obvious than the first one, which is good. I don't know how original the ideas she presented are, but at least for me they were thought provoking.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on May 29, 2013, 02:54:37 PM
Concerning her appearance, I don't see how that is relevant. Her appearance in all of her videos is more or less the same, so I am willing to believe that is just how she dresses.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on May 29, 2013, 05:34:11 PM
Her dress is very calculated, just as anyone would be when performing in public.  I didn't see it as any more manipulative as one wearing a suit to a business/job interview or wearing a tie-dye to a Phish concert.  I think she just likes to look well put together, and her attire is honestly very neutral.

Self edited easily misunderstood and ill timed joke

Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on May 29, 2013, 07:09:06 PM

Self edited easily misunderstood and ill timed joke

Bt

Awww...I like easily misunderstood and ill-timed jokes.  :(
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: br305893 on May 29, 2013, 08:38:30 PM
I didn't see it as any more manipulative as one wearing a suit to a business/job interview or wearing a tie-dye to a Phish concert.
Bt

Or, in my case wearing tie-dye to a business/job interview and wearing tie-dye to a Phish concert  ;D
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on May 30, 2013, 10:10:47 AM
Guess it depends on the job. :P Or concert!

Anyways--her dress and appearance has been pretty much the same in all her videos, even if you go back into her archives, yes.

Also, I think we need more Sarah Connors in games. :) (I.E., badass moms saving their sons!)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 08, 2013, 09:29:07 PM
I think this guy's rebuttals are great.  Curious what people think of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25o0EZiogw0
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on June 09, 2013, 06:58:23 AM
Yeah. I'm not watching that.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Tomatensaft on June 09, 2013, 08:41:36 AM
I think this guy's rebuttals are great.  Curious what people think of this.

It's exactly the kind of stuff you expect from one of those neo-atheists who has just replaced a sexist god with a sexist surrogate god called "the nature". And it's exactly what you expect from someone who said things like "Rape isn't fatal (...) Someone f***** you when you didn't want to be f***** (...) what's the big deal? (...) You vindictive b****! Also, don't you ever get tired of being the victim?"
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/TheAmazingAtheist
And last but not least: it's also what you expect from a submissive bisexual BDSM fetishists (nothing wrong with that, of course!) who tries to gain acceptance by being misogynic and dedicating every second video to the horrors of feminism.

But take just the beginning: Ms Sarkeesian had to face such an horrible amount of hate, of rape threats, death threats, her pages were spammed with p0rn-pictures of women who're getting tortured, her youtube site reported (and afaik even temporarily disabled) as a terrorist activity etc. ... and THEN the amazing atheist complains why she hasn't enabled the the comment section and says that she's just shy of discussion? Come one!

And talking about "discussions": it's pretty easy to "discuss" such topics when you yourself aren't a woman. Then it's of course easy to call for "freedom of speech" and a "rational" debate without those annoying feelings of people, who actually have to deal with that certain kind of discrimination you're talking about, .

You know, I basically think that men shouldn't talk so much about feminism anyway. This is always a slippery slope and it usually results in men telling women that they are just too sensitive, in white people telling black people that they are just too sensitive, in straight people and so on. I'm also a man – so it's kind of a contradiction now, but I guess that you can't avoid certain contradictions in a contradictionary world (eg a world with misogynic women, "uncle toms", self-hating jews etc.) But nevertheless I would say as a rule of thumb: if you aren't affected by a certain kind of discrimination, then talk less, listen more. And don't immediately assume that the person you're talking with jsut tries to blackmail you or just "enjoys" being offended. In the end, you can not verify what sexism, racism, homophobia etc. is without listening to those who are affected by it.

But anyway, two more things: What many people don't want to understand is that the so-called "serious, real, more important" problems and the "non-real problems for crybabies" are linked to each other. Discrimination isn't like alcohol with a little bit every once in a while being okay, while being an alcoholic is not – but more like a tree with poisoned fruits. And the poisoned fruit needs a root to grow and it needs to get watered. And you don't need to get raped and murdered, enslaved and gased, first to dislike that tree. Something like Steubenville doesn't just happen out of a context.
http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-penny/2013/03/steubenville-rape-cultures-abu-ghraib-moment
 And it has also nothing to do with physical strength. There are a lot of female athletes and female boxers and fit, tall women – if it would be just because of physical strength (like the amazing atheist claims) then we would see dozens of female athletes running around and raping cute, little blonde boys who are on their way to their viola lessons.

That doesn't mean, of course, that women are morally superior because they have a womb and can have those magic babies – that kind of "positive" sexism is just the other side of the coin and you can't have only one side of it. Just as you can't have the intelligent jew without the sneaky jew and the athletic black man without the less rational black man etc.
And the same is true when it comes to "victimization": the cultural victimization of showing women as beings who are helpless without their male hero (and who look so hawt and sexy when they get threatened) etc. is NOT empowerment and is NOT a way out of a society where they face the danger of becoming actual victims of rape and domestic violence.

White people with a dancing-with-the-wolves complex aren't anti-racists and men who want to save the princess (as long as she is hot and white and thin and willing to have sex afterwards) aren't advocates of gender equality. Pointing out the actual victimization because of misogny, racism, homophobia WITHOUT feeding into the idea that people of color can't be saved without kevin costner and women can't be saved without the male hero etc. is, of course, one of the challenges every social movement has to face. This can become difficult and controversial -just look at the discussions about muslim women and FEMEN- but the last thing those movements need are sexists who ridicule and belittle them. After all, the goal is a world where women don't even need a male hero with a gun to walk through the park because they don't have to fear male violence in the first place.

Oh, but one last thing: I'm from Germany – and do you know when the antisemitism here really got started? Not 1933 and not between the two world wars. But around hundred years earlier after the emancipation of the jews and after jews became legally equal. THEN the shocked aryan christendom made up all kinds of biological BS to justify what they were already thinking: that jews are different or deviant or just plain wrong. The same is happening in France now – now that gay marriage is almost equal to hetero marriage and hundreds of thousands of people demonstrated against it, got in fights with the police and the violence against LGBT raised about 30%. I've also read once that since Obama is president there are more white people with racist prejudices against black people. And not less. This is not surprising, of course, because discrimination usually increases after legal equalization. When black people or gay people or jews are on the floor anyway – well, then it's easy to get such a "dancing with the wolves" complex. But when they are suddenly presidents or legally equal to you ... omigod!

And the same is true when it comes to women. The images of beauty that are forced upon women are getting crueler and crueler the more equality women achieve. I don't know the exact numbers anymore but the amount of young women here in Germany who are unsatisfied with their looks and their weight increased around 20% over the last ten years. And this is not an accident. And it's not the feminists who are looking for sexism because they want to be offended, it's quite teh opposite: sexists (which includes women who have internalized misogyny or who try to gain acceptance by telling everyone how ridiculous feminism is) are looking for reasons to justify their misogny. And they don't find those "justifications" in god only. They can also find it in a sexist surrogate god called "the nature". Those neo atheists can explain everything with religion. The only thing they can't explain with it is their very own misogny.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on June 09, 2013, 03:02:43 PM
Yeah. I'm not watching that.

You'd be doing yourself a dis-service.  His rebuttals are very good - he does have some snark on occasion, but overall, he makes salient points in his rebuttals.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on June 09, 2013, 04:11:33 PM
Last rebuttal posted here was anything but, all the rebuttals completely missed the issue to begin with. This video is already pretty obvious in its feelings on feminist frequency. Plus Tomatensaft's wall-o-text pretty much confirms what I expect to find.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on June 09, 2013, 05:30:47 PM
I watched part of the video, and I think he largely misses the point of the whole exercise, actually. (I'd get into it more, but I don't have the time just now--hopefully later this week, perhaps.)

Tomatensaft, I really enjoyed your post. Thank you for taking the time to write all that out and share your thoughts.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Numbers on June 09, 2013, 06:50:06 PM
I've sort of just consigned myself to the fact that I will never understand women, and as such will probably remain ignorant of the ramifications of woman-in-the-freezer tropes no matter how long I live.

And there's a lot of heated discussion in this thread, so I think I'll just lighten things up a bit by sharing this flash animation that has nothing to do with this thread's topic:
http://cristgaming.com/pirate.swf  (http://cristgaming.com/pirate.swf)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 09, 2013, 10:16:12 PM
One of the best and most memorable writing assignments I ever had in graduate school was an assignment in which I was required to summarize 6 weeks worth of complex course material in 4 pages.  Conciseness in writing is an art and gift.  Just something to think about, people.  If you can't make your point in a paragraph or two, maybe you should spend a little more time thinking it through before you decide to write it down.

That said, I did take the time to read all of that, and I don't necessarily disagree with it.  I like intelligent discussions, and when people make good, solid points, I think it's worth spreading around.  I think Anita's videos do that, somewhat, but I also see the flaws in them, too.  She's majorly guilty of cherry-picking and ignoring important context in her examples, as well as ignoring research and statistics that don't directly support her claims, among other things.  But I also see the flaws in a video like that rebuttal I posted--that guy clearly is operating with his own set of biases, despite making some good solid points.  He mentions confirmation bias, which I definitely think Anita is guilty of, though perhaps not to the extent that TheAmazingAtheist says she is.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Tomatensaft on June 10, 2013, 05:36:18 AM
One of the best and most memorable writing assignments I ever had in graduate school was an assignment in which I was required to summarize 6 weeks worth of complex course material in 4 pages.  Conciseness in writing is an art and gift.  Just something to think about, people.  If you can't make your point in a paragraph or two, maybe you should spend a little more time thinking it through before you decide to write it down.

Hehe, and I haven't even written about everything I think is wrong with that rebuttal video. :P

For example, comparing that damsel in distress thingie with a gay hero who wants to save his gay lover (Yeah, I'm looking forward to the gamer reactions to that, lol...) only works when you completely deny the history, the tradition and the culture of misogyny - and how the construction of female weakness (and vulnerability, sensitivity as something that is "feminine" and therefore also "faggy" and degrading for strong, superior men) is used to build and legitimate social hierarchies: then a powerful men and a powerless women would be just the same as a, say, modernized gay Sherlock Holmes saving his gay Dr Watson. But denying those differences is just like saying that it doesn't matter if all people in positions of power are white, because we should be colorblind anyway.

But ... err: those people don't just want to debunk a certain point or a certain video a feminist makes, they want to promote biological determinism, debunk feminism as a whole and show it as something that's just utterly stupid, whiny, wrong and against "nature". And I think that when this happens, it is neccessary to point out some of the basics you can not always summarize in catchy little paragraphs. Adorno once wrote "Only what they don't need first to understand, they consider understandable; only the word coined by commerce, and really alienated, touches them as familiar. Few things contribute so much to the demoralization of intellectuals. Those who would escape it must recognize the advocates of communicability as traitors to what they communicate."

I also think that you can not separate the "good points" from "the wrong points out of misogynistic delusions". If you hear a feminist talk about women's rights and sexism etc., and your first, immediate reaction is,"Where is a rebuttal video, where is a rebuttal text, what is wrong with that, there must be something wrong with that, the other side will have good arguments as well!", then there's something wrong. This is like with Israel. Criticizing Israel isn't principally anti-semitic, but if you have the obsessive desire to find guilty jews and you can not bear hearing someone talk about antisemitism without feeling the desire to find someone on youtube who tells you that the jew is exaggerating as always, then ... well. 

Apart of that: the fundament on which those rebuttal stuff is based, are biological determinism ("Men just are like that because of nature, because they are so STRONG and TALL and because the genes, biology, neanderthals ... "There is nothing more natural than rape", Sam Harris once said.) and denying that sexism is more than the bad habit of some misguided individuals.
And just as you can not build a house on sand, you can not make a good argument based on that.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on June 10, 2013, 02:49:28 PM
Quote
You'd be doing yourself a dis-service.  His rebuttals are very good - he does have some snark on occasion, but overall, he makes salient points in his rebuttals.

No they're not. They're entitled, whiny, shallow and completely miss the point. They could only have been made by someone in a position of power and privilege who doesn't want his toys taken away.

Tomatensaft made a lot of good points; I'll add a few of my own.

Ok, love is a powerful plot driver. Ok, we should allow both male and female avatars. But I mean HOW can he just ignore the fact that the overwhelming majority of action heroes are straight white men? And that the overwhelming majority of characters who need to be rescued are young, slender, attactive, (probably) white women with almost no personality who are defined only by their relationship with the protagonist?

I actually think one of Sarkeesian's best points was that this kind of stuff doesn't help men either. This mode of thinking - where men are the strong, powerful ones who have the responsibility to hit monsters in the face and save their loved ones - is totally out of date. Violence and the "strong silent type" are no longer useful in our society. Rather than responding to crises with grand gestures, it's generally better to respond with rational, thought-out acts of compromise. Frankly, assuming that your significant other is helpless and you have a responsibility to rescue her (if you're a straight man) is an INSULT to her, and shows that you don't trust her to be able to sort out her problem herself. Yes, all of the women in these games are in extreme situations, but when that trickles down a man's consciousness into a real-world situation everything is going to be much less clear. And acting in a certain way because you feel you'd be emasculated if you didn't is a very troubling way to go about helping people.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 10, 2013, 04:30:57 PM
Frankly, assuming that your significant other is helpless and you have a responsibility to rescue her (if you're a straight man) is an INSULT to her, and shows that you don't trust her to be able to sort out her problem herself.

That might be one of the most ridiculously cynical statements I've seen on this forum in quite a while.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 11, 2013, 12:56:29 AM
Honestly with the second video Anita just kind of told me that her series is just not very good.

Now when I originally watched her first video the major fault I could see without putting much thinking into it was that ultimately it was just so general and with the barest of explanations that it came off as just a flat out introduction.

With the second this trend continued.

So what happened is I looked back and started to really think about and listen to a lot of what Anita said and the examples she used and the more I actually thought about it and the more I learned about the games she was using as her examples, the less valid her videos became. If these weren't professional videos they would get a pass as they are just an opinion.

Basically the three main areas of weakness are as follows
1) Poor explanations: She often treats her words as if they carry weight without saying without ever explaining the why. This was originally not one of my complaints, well major ones, in the first video because it seemed like an introduction to a larger subject... but it wasn't. A lot of her examples rely on just accepting things at face value, yet she always begs closer analysis.
2) Poor Examples: Many of the examples she uses are just flat out terrible examples of the trope being used, are terrible examples of the trope being used the way she says it, or she just doesn't know the material.
3) Bending Language: This one is harder to catch onto but she will bend the human language in ways never before. Often switching from plot to metaplot within the same sentence or using words as a shock factor but not for the sake of accuracy.

The odd thing is that there is never a need for her to do any of that. There is more then enough examples of these tropes in videogames in their purest form that she doesn't need to misuse anything. I would even go as far as to say she is outright dishonest in her approach.

As for the video Lambo posted. Indeed it does make a few good points and it also makes a lot of bad ones.

Quote
I also think that you can not separate the "good points" from "the wrong points out of misogynistic delusions".


Ok here is the thing.

Tropes are not sexist in it of themselves. The video is mostly attacking Anita on two things
1) Is the inconsistency in her thinking and methodology
and
2) The idea of sexist tropes to begin with

But the odd thing is. They do explain themselves, they do present 'evidence' (They do get her Thesis wrong though, She was likely referring to "strong" as in physically strong as a male trait)

Where the video fails though is that simply speaking. Anita knows these tropes exist for a reason, though she REALLY REALLY doesn't explain it very well, and she has nothing against the existence of the trope (once again she doesn't explain this and even if she did she also buried it under a lot of buzz words) but rather its excessive proliferation.

Now I am not sure how long this reply can be, but since it has been a while...

Quote
only works when you completely deny the history, the tradition and the culture of misogyny

Well no, because if you brought up the tradition and culture of misogyny you would understand that many of these roles came about not because of a notion of male superiority, but because they fit within certain story arcs. Often these were used as a metaphor to understand certain power relationships.

And even then their past roles are always ignored for their current role anyhow because literature and art are always evolving.

 
Quote
how the construction of female weakness (and vulnerability, sensitivity as something that is "feminine" and therefore also "faggy" and degrading for strong, superior men)


That isn't a female weakness. In fact as we have evolved as a society we have started to understand that sensitivity and even vulnerability as a positive trait instead of a negative one. It hasn't completed itself.

In fact the female myth of superior sensitivity as even gone as far as to create one of the few instances where women actually tend to be superior to men in institutions.

Ok I cannot write anymore. So I have to stop here. I will apologize though since by only commenting and talking about these two quotes it is a very disjointed conversation. You are free to respond but remember these thoughts are mostly incomplete (except my overall opinion on Anita's videos).

To sum up Anita's videos are: confusing but hopefully the third will be better...

The Counter video brings up SOME good points but mostly doesn't understand Anita's video.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 11, 2013, 07:21:04 AM

The Counter video brings up SOME good points but mostly doesn't understand Anita's video.

I agree, and that's really all I intended to do by posting it--just to take a look at some of the more intelligent (nobody ever claimed perfect) counter videos out there.  Believe me, there are a lot of utter s*** ones, too.

I have to say though, I find the "I won't watch anything that runs counter to the opinion I already hold" responses to be rather rock-headed.  Broadening one's horizons is what makes one grow as a person.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on June 11, 2013, 08:56:32 AM
I have to say though, I find the "I won't watch anything that runs counter to the opinion I already hold" responses to be rather rock-headed.  Broadening one's horizons is what makes one grow as a person.

Hah--interesting thing is, you could be saying that about people who won't watch the rebuttal video but also about people who flat-out refuse to believe Anita has anything worth listening in the first place as well.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 11, 2013, 10:34:47 AM
I have to say though, I find the "I won't watch anything that runs counter to the opinion I already hold" responses to be rather rock-headed.  Broadening one's horizons is what makes one grow as a person.

Hah--interesting thing is, you could be saying that about people who won't watch the rebuttal video but also about people who flat-out refuse to believe Anita has anything worth listening in the first place as well.

That's what I meant--guess I wasn't clear enough there.  Even if you think you know what you're going to think of something, you should still check it out, because enlightenment comes in many unexpected forms and places.

Heck, that's why I played TSL!  ;)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on June 11, 2013, 11:53:37 AM
Ba-dum-ching. :P

But yes--even if you end up agreeing or not agreeing with things, taking them in and listening to viewpoints not your own is always worthwhile. Ultimately you're the only person who has your exact view and experience and opinions, and in shocking news, the world does not revolve around you and not everything is about you. (I use "you" in the generalized sense here.)

Tomatensaft described this well in his post--the idea of accepting that if something is being described that isn't a thing that affects you, then you'd do well to listen, because you can't fully know what you can't possibly experience. Or, in fewer words, this is what people mean when they say "check your privilege". Most often this is said because the person who's claiming this point of view can't possibly be real is coming from a "privileged" position of not ever experiencing this kind of treatment or phenomena. In the case of this topic, in its broadest terms, if you're not female, you don't know what it's like to experience games and the gaming culture from that point of view, and you therefore have no basis to claim prejudices and sexism "don't exist" because to you, no, of course they don't. If you aren't the target, you don't know what it's like to be the target. I wouldn't claim to know better than a transgender person, for example, if those kinds of prejudices exist in society or even in gaming about or against being trans. But I can still listen to their experience and opinions and come away better informed about a viewpoint that is not my own, and hopefully be able to recognize these things when I encounter them after that, be more aware of not only of the actions of others but also my own.

Ultimately, really, that's what the video series is about (IMO): pointing out that these things exist is worthwhile and worth listening to. Maybe she's overstating it, maybe not, but the point is to think about them & why they exist. Does it reflect the culture? Is that a good or bad thing? And does changing the reflection mean that we can, in turn, change the culture?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 11, 2013, 01:20:31 PM
I don't know (referring to earlier posts, not to KatieHal) sometimes I won't watch a rebuttal video or even a video in defense of Tropes Versus Women because they are just flat out spiteful.

Anita's videos are flawed, and while the degree is up for opinion the bulk of people who disagree with her do the most spiteful tactics and stabs. In fact the people who are in defense of her are so mocking.

While videos in defense of Anita's tend to call anyone who would find fault in it sexist.

Quote
check your privilege

I hate that term so so much. Though mostly because my experience in feminist discussions is that for the most part they try to put up the largest and thickest wall against men possible.

I can understand the "Check your privilege" on its original intention which is that it is about trying to see past your own advantages to see the disadvantages in others. Yet it is often used as a wall by just saying "Men can't know sexism or lack of sexism because they have all the advantages".

It is sort of what we have called the Discrimination Olympics. When a conversation breaks down and both sides have to argue who gets it worse off.

 
Quote
Maybe she's overstating it

To me the problem is that she hasn't stated it. It is why the counter arguments tend to get Anita's videos wrong is because she intentionally leaves things so vague in order for the audience to convince themselves of Anita's position.

It isn't their fault and frankly believing that Anita is against these tropes themselves is a valid interpretation especially in the second. (though in the second the basic premise is she is against violence against women seeming special)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on June 11, 2013, 02:09:02 PM
Yeah, the phrase can sound very aggressive and off-putting. Unfortunate, because it's otherwise a convenient shorthand. And yeah, at least when I use it, I don't mean it in the "you know nothing [Jon Snow]!" kind of way. More that, hey, this isn't the way you experience the world--don't think you know more about it than the person or people who DO experience it that way.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 11, 2013, 02:18:59 PM
Quote
More that, hey, this isn't the way you experience the world--don't think you know more about it than the person or people who DO experience it that way.


At the same time though, there is the unprivileged bias. People who are abused also can have a very skewed image of how the world works as well.

Which for topics such as sexism is doubly true because there is a strong fear culture, or shall we forget the Super bowl abuse myth.

Mostly in these conversations when someone says they don't see sexism, treat what they say as valid and then disagree. What we get from "check your privilege" as we can see on this board is a lot of attacks. Which is honestly a shame because I believe you KatieHal that, that is exactly how you use it. People need to see beyond their grasp.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 11, 2013, 11:41:09 PM
People need to see beyond their grasp.

Didn't I just say this several posts ago?  ;)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on June 12, 2013, 05:16:48 AM
Frankly, assuming that your significant other is helpless and you have a responsibility to rescue her (if you're a straight man) is an INSULT to her, and shows that you don't trust her to be able to sort out her problem herself.

That might be one of the most ridiculously cynical statements I've seen on this forum in quite a while.

Maybe I should restate what I meant.

If somebody has a problem that they can't fix on their own or which they would like help fixing, and you're in a position to help then, yes, obviously, helping would be good. This goes for all sexes and all genders.

My problem is that for a long time now men have been seen as protectors, guardians and overall problem-fixers. The traditional image would be a man going off to fight for his family while they stay at home waiting for him - but this needn't apply to warfare, it could be the man going off to work while the women and children stay at home, it could be the man going to have an argument with the father of someone who's bullying his child, it could even be the man putting up shelves or helping people carry heavy objects.

Now this is not necessarily a problem because, you know, s*** happens and problems need to be fixed. My problem is that until quite recently this was the DEFINITION OF MASCULINITY - ie. men had to do these things in order to feel that they were "real men" and therefore had worth. So what happens when this becomes the definition of what it means to be a man? Men end up defaulting to "Oh, I should fix that because I'm a man and I'm strong and capable". Someone has a problem? He should fix it. Someone insulted him or someone he loves? He should go beat them up.

But you know what? You can't solve all problems. One person can only do so much, and a man in that mindset is a very particular sort of person who might not be able to solve the problem BECAUSE OF WHO HE IS. What I mean is, there are certain problems where an enraged man blundering in is not going to help. In fact, the biggest problem I see with this system is that very often, people trying to help end up making things worse, though they might have the best of intentions. If you define your self-worth through fixing other people's problems in a no-nonsense, cut-through-all-the-cr** way, you're going to see problems everywhere, and you're going to try to cut a lot of cr**. And that could easily just make things worse, because sometimes it's just best to leave things alone.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on June 12, 2013, 08:16:49 AM
I have to say though, I find the "I won't watch anything that runs counter to the opinion I already hold" responses to be rather rock-headed.  Broadening one's horizons is what makes one grow as a person.

Hah--interesting thing is, you could be saying that about people who won't watch the rebuttal video but also about people who flat-out refuse to believe Anita has anything worth listening in the first place as well.

That's what I meant--guess I wasn't clear enough there.  Even if you think you know what you're going to think of something, you should still check it out, because enlightenment comes in many unexpected forms and places.

Heck, that's why I played TSL!  ;)

Hence why I made the thread, I would rather discuss it here than with a video that clearly has no respect for issue, I don't see the need to give myself a headache listening to another fool miss the point. 

Besides last rebuttal video I watched in this thread didn't have any good points in my perspective, and no one bothered to tell me what they liked about it in the first place.  It would be easier if you just said what you took away from at video that made you want post it.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Tomatensaft on June 12, 2013, 09:05:54 AM
Well, I'd like to reply to this:

Quote
only works when you completely deny the history, the tradition and the culture of misogyny
Well no, because if you brought up the tradition and culture of misogyny you would understand that many of these roles came about not because of a notion of male superiority, but because they fit within certain story arcs. Often these were used as a metaphor to understand certain power relationships.

Ok I cannot write anymore. So I have to stop here. I will apologize though since by only commenting and talking about these two quotes it is a very disjointed conversation. You are free to respond but remember these thoughts are mostly incomplete (except my overall opinion on Anita's videos).

Because this is only a contradiction if you want it to be a contradiction (like the AA wants it to be.)

Yes, they fit with certain story arcs and yes, sometimes they were (and are) used to understand certain power relations, or to show reactions to those relations, or to serve as catharsis etc. etc. And sometimes they do that pretty well or are even really high art. In Wagner's Ring des Nibelungen Siegfried und Brünnhilde, the hero and the valkyre, acknowledge their love first, then have sex, the curtain falls and next: she stays at home and he goes out to seek adventure. And then everything goes terribly wrong of course – like so often when the girl stays at home and the boys go out to seek fun and adventure.

The point is: those stories aren't neccessarily failed or bad or evil or something. But just like a good author will always and neccessarily, wether he wants it or not, tell you something about the society he's living in, even if he (or she, of course) only writes honestly about her private, personal problems, those tropes and story arcs involve ... err ... let's say: hidden narratives. They also tell you something about the gender roles the creators believe(d) in, even if they wanted to tell you something else. Or they can show you that the creator could imagine dragons, vampires and orcs but thought that a woman in a position of power would be too "unrealistic" for the "middle ages".

And when those ideas are powerful enough, they also shape the ideas of others. Like a circle: Society -> Writer -> Society -> Writer etc. And the unintended ideas can be even more powerful than the inteded. Which is also why I think it's so important to point out that discrimination isn't simply an ill intent. You don't need an ill intent to internalize some transphobic, misogynic, homophobic (...) elements if you have been socialized in a (...) society. The actual problems begins when we can't talk enough about where those things come from and how we can get rid of them, because we have to waste so much time with discussing if they even exist. (Amongst us and the things we like. Everyone easily admits of course that they exist amongst those stupid backwarded "others" like muslims or christians or russians or texans, germans or americans, etc. etc.)

Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: MikPal on June 12, 2013, 04:50:46 PM
So, watched FemFreq. Amazing. False dichotomies, appeals to ignorance, extremely poor research that could be done with an hour surfing in TVTropes.org (which itself is an extremely poor source for actual research), the games were only played to get footage (Prey gets an extremely sad mention with Anita taking a scene extremely out of context to make it fit her narrative*), no real arguments, plenty of theories that would be welcome in any conspiracy theorists closet and worst of all, no discussion with even the reasonable arguments being thrown in the "I got threats"-bin. Hah, according to her standards even Erica Reed would be too manly for Anita to give a thumbs up.

So, why did people give money to this prejudiced person again?


*Jen's not the only person close to Tommy that dies and motivates him to move on, but I quess "grandpa in the fridge" would have been too much out of Anita's narrative. Heck, even in the end Jen's and his grandfather's spirits save Tommy. In the end the theme of the story is that sometimes life is about letting the things you love go. Tommy's grandfather, Jen, godhood. It is even hinted in the beginning where Tommy wants to leave the reservation with Jen who refuses to go with him thus within the first five minutes ending their relationship. Did I also mention that there are kids dying too? The whole game is meant to make you feel extremely uneasy with plenty of men running around in underwear whimpering of fear.



Quote
And acting in a certain way because you feel you'd be emasculated if you didn't is a very troubling way to go about helping people.
I've saved my loved ones from death a couple of times (men, women, dog) and I can only hope that they love me enough back to do the same. And they have.


Quote
because it's otherwise a convenient shorthand
Not really, it just tells me that you're judging another person because your argument ran out of steam.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Numbers on June 12, 2013, 05:47:32 PM
Anyone wanna bet on how many more days this thread lasts before it gets locked?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 12, 2013, 06:15:11 PM
Anyone wanna bet on how many more days this thread lasts before it gets locked?

Quiet, you!  It's just starting to get good!  haha
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on June 12, 2013, 08:19:39 PM
Quote
because it's otherwise a convenient shorthand
Not really, it just tells me that you're judging another person because your argument ran out of steam.

This conclusion does not make sense to me. How does it being handy to have terms that people both know the meaning/definition of so you can use those instead of going into a lengthier description means mean this? A shorthand phrase here is the same as, for example, stating up front in a contract that rather than stating a name or company name every time you need to, the general term "Client" or "Contractor" or "Payee" will be used in its stead. It's a phrase you can use that both/all parties understand the intended meaning of.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 13, 2013, 12:29:55 PM
Quote
because it's otherwise a convenient shorthand
Not really, it just tells me that you're judging another person because your argument ran out of steam.

This conclusion does not make sense to me. How does it being handy to have terms that people both know the meaning/definition of so you can use those instead of going into a lengthier description means mean this? A shorthand phrase here is the same as, for example, stating up front in a contract that rather than stating a name or company name every time you need to, the general term "Client" or "Contractor" or "Payee" will be used in its stead. It's a phrase you can use that both/all parties understand the intended meaning of.

Eh...I don't know, Katie.  Anytime you throw down a shorthand phrase with the intent of shutting down argument, it's basically the same as saying "I know you are but what am I?" over and over and over again.  ;)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on June 13, 2013, 01:26:15 PM
The full sentence I wrote about this, which was only partially quoted here, was:

Yeah, the phrase can sound very aggressive and off-putting. Unfortunate, because it's otherwise a convenient shorthand. And yeah, at least when I use it, I don't mean it in the "you know nothing [Jon Snow]!" kind of way. More that, hey, this isn't the way you experience the world--don't think you know more about it than the person or people who DO experience it that way.

In other words: that is specifically NOT the way in which I meant that phrase, and also the aspect of it that prevents it from being said convenient shorthand.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 13, 2013, 04:31:41 PM
This site really hates me once my posts get really long.

Quote
let's say: hidden narratives

Honesty I am of the belief that an author's work should stand on its own separate from the author who wrote it. All this channeling the author to see the "hidden narrative" ends up just misrepresenting the story anyhow that often takes these notions and turns them into a good story.

Lovecraft for example is very famously anti-Semitic (Mind you the explanations of such makes him seem like he had a genuine mental problem) and actually used these elements in his writing to a very good degree. Yet I wouldn't go as far as to say his work is anti-Semitic even though he used his hatred towards the Jews as direct inspiration.

Quote
when those ideas are powerful enough, they also shape the ideas of others. Like a circle: Society -> Writer -> Society -> Writer etc. And the unintended ideas can be even more powerful than the inteded. Which is also why I think it's so important to point out that discrimination isn't simply an ill intent

Only 3 of the 4 racisms are ill intent anyhow. But here is the thing. There is no discrimination here, these are characters within a narrative and are treated as such.

People will always pick up on certain ideas, but you cannot dictate onto a medium just because people have taken narrative fiction too far.

Quote
. The actual problems begins when we can't talk enough about where those things come from and how we can get rid of them, because we have to waste so much time with discussing if they even exist

The problem to me starts when certain aspects of "ism" becomes acceptable or considered normal.

Quote
So, watched FemFreq. Amazing. False dichotomies, appeals to ignorance, extremely poor research that could be done with an hour surfing in TVTropes.org


Yeah... It is pretty bad and the worst part is that it didn't need to be so terrible.

Quote
So, why did people give money to this prejudiced person again?

If you have been in conversations with people who agree with her, there is a pattern.

Mostly they fill in all the gaps and any inconsistency they explain away. For example I can see what Anita means most of the time, but that is in no way accredited to Anita herself.

In fact there are even fans who know how troubled her videos are but who go "Well she is right, even if her arguments are wrong".

Quote
plenty of theories that would be welcome in any conspiracy theorists closet and worst of all

Well to admit she did completely misrepresent what happened to Dinosaur planet. A game that was changed to Starfox Adventures for a reason that had nothing to do with a girl being in Dinosaur planet.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on June 14, 2013, 05:50:43 PM
Quote
Lovecraft for example is very famously anti-Semitic (Mind you the explanations of such makes him seem like he had a genuine mental problem) and actually used these elements in his writing to a very good degree. Yet I wouldn't go as far as to say his work is anti-Semitic even though he used his hatred towards the Jews as direct inspiration.

No, you misunderstand the problem. We're talking about Lovecraft's antisemitic tendencies openly, which is good because we can now read Lovecraft and think "Hey, this is kind of racist BUT it still has things I like about it."

The problem is, how many people read Lovecraft, or other writers, and DON'T notice the racist undertones? When you're aware of these undertones they lose their power to influence you. (Mostly.) But if you don't notice them - if you get swept up in the story as we all want to be and you just accept the fact that the "primitive", "degenerate" "savages" are all Jews or black people or indigenous people BECAUSE YOU'RE ENJOYING THE STORY - then you'll internalise all the stuff he *implicitly* says about them. This isn't the best example because our views on race have changed a lot, but imagine you're someone from the 1930s. You're racist, sexist and believe whites are superior, because almost every white person believed these things back then, and I want to put you in the mind of the oppressive, culturally dominant group. And next time you see a Jew, you'll think "Oh, it's a Jew, like in that story I read." You won't just blindly assume this person is going to go and do a horrific Lovecraftian ritual, but you probably WILL think that they are secretive and have an inferior culture. Not because you've read Lovecraft and agree with him, but because you've read Lovecraft *and you never stopped to think about how he portrayed Jews*.

This is made worse, of course, by the fact that hypothetical 1930s-you is surrounded by a racist culture, but in this scenario Lovecraft's stories are only one small part of that culture, which is continually reinforcing itself. Which isn't to say they aren't also brilliant, spine-chilling, world-altering horror stories that can be enjoyed in their own right - of course they are. But we also need to look at the stuff they're telling us without us realising, by *not* drawing attention to it.

These tropes have power *because* nobody notices them, and *because* nobody *wants* to notice them. People's cultural values are changed by them *because they have an unconscious effect*, and *because people don't think they're important*. All of these posts people are making that say "Let's just enjoy the story"? That's the very process that we're discussing, in action! Right there!

Quote
The problem to me starts when certain aspects of "ism" becomes acceptable or considered normal.

No no no, again you're missing the point. Yes, sexism and racism and all of those "isms" are bad. But do you think the slavers in the 18th century had a word for when they beat their slaves for fun? No - to them that wasn't "racism", that was *normal*, because to them, black people weren't people. The same goes for a lot of rape culture - women are seen as objects or property or, at the very least, men see it as their right to have sex regardless of whether the woman gives consent. To us that would be "sexism" but to these men that's just normal, because to them the idea of a woman having rights over her own body is absurd.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on June 14, 2013, 06:11:37 PM
Okay, let's just address how problematic it is labeling anyone writing in the 1920s as an anti-Semite, when it's pretty well established that this was, in fact, a global phenomenon. What you should be doing instead, is labeling them a product of their culture and environment.

Which brings me to my next point: the "point" of analysing the art and media we consume is that we don't just consume them. We are changed or moved by them and their depictions. They make us think differently. They don't exist in a vacuum that we then leave to get on with our real lives once we've finished consuming them. To find examples of this, we only need to wait for something to become a meme or for a certain "type" to become fashionable. If lots of people start thinking or acting a certain way because they're mimicking art, then we are perpetuating a culture. We should analyse that culture very carefully to figure out what exactly we're perpetuating, with all its subtext and potential problems, and then decide whether perpetuating it is a good thing.

When you produce a piece of media that is designed for consumption, you also have the converse obligation: People will read various things into it, perhaps not the things you intended, and those things will shape society too, especially if the ideas are popular and seem to mirror or validate what cultural stereotypes there already are. Valuable ideas may also be discounted or regarded as worthless because of the cultural context they exist in.

By considering the cultural context that something exists in, we remove our bias (and to an extent the author's bias) from that and can just consider the ideas by themselves and decide whether they have value or not.

Finally, rape culture *is* a problem. Male entitlement *can be* a problem. Society *is* problematic. What Anita's doing may not always be applicable (not having played many of the games, I don't know), but she's pointing out these tropes and making people who watch the video think about them, even if she's not applying it to a broader cultural context - but then, all you would have to do to know that these problems do exist is to read. ;)


Also: Tomatensaft, you got me posting again because you seemed clever, so thank you. It had to be someone who liked Wagner. :) *is going to all the Ring proms in London in July* :D
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: GrahamRocks! on June 14, 2013, 06:24:46 PM
Well said, my Queene! and you too Tomatensaft. *ducks away*
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 15, 2013, 03:47:11 AM
Quote
but she's pointing out these tropes and making people who watch the video think about them, even if she's not applying it to a broader cultural context - but then, all you would have to do to know that these problems do exist is to read

Yet still, they need more then just to be mentioned. You also have to accept that there is a problem and for many of these there needed to be some sort of explanation of any sort.

Saying something is proliferated is fine but you still have to explain why its proliferation is a negative and explain why some of these specific examples are negative.

Quote
The problem is, how many people read Lovecraft, or other writers, and DON'T notice the racist undertones?

That isn't a problem at all, his books are not about racism and do not try to justify racism (to my knowledge). In fact as long as you are completely unaware of his inspiration it is completely and utterly a non-factor.

All it does as far as racism is concerned is describe the "otherness" of a creature in a style that only appears in some of his works.

There is absolutely no furthering of racism, proliferation of racist attitudes, or even a hint of racism UNLESS you know some of these exact details and actually look really deep into some of the lines and even then these lines wouldn't be racist anyhow.

In other words... The problem is only if you read too much into it.

Quote
These tropes have power *because* nobody notices them

So in the end, THIS trope has no power if no one notices it.

Quote
People's cultural values are changed by them *because they have an unconscious effect*, and *because people don't think they're important*.


Yet you yourself says it ultimately doesn't matter because as long as you point it out, it has no effect. So why care?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on June 15, 2013, 06:42:29 AM
Quote
That isn't a problem at all, his books are not about racism and do not try to justify racism (to my knowledge). In fact as long as you are completely unaware of his inspiration it is completely and utterly a non-factor.
My point is that in Lovecraft, all the protagonists are white, generally Anglo-Saxon (in the sense that they're generally Americans with English ancestry) and fairly well-educated. They are basically like Lovecraft himself. And all of his cultists, who normally perform "unspeakable rituals", and are seen as degenerate, inferior, uneducated, repulsive, and prone to lash out and kill "outsiders" - they're all hispanic or semitic or arabic or black. The one exception to this is Lovecraft's figure of the murderous, insane backwoodsman, but I think that's because the backwoodsman represents something else Lovecraft finds repulsive, namely "country folk". He's a city boy (or at least a towny boy, as he hated New York). My point is that Lovecraft always portrays educated, literary white people as good, and anyone who doesn't fit into that category as bad, to the extent that they're considered degenerate, filthy, repulsive etc.

This doesn't apply to the monsters AT ALL. Let's just leave the monsters out of it and look at the human beings. The Horror at Red Hook? All the cultists are bug-eyed filthy unwashed immigrants. Call of Cthulhu? The cultists are always "country folk", whether that means people indigenous to unexplored locations or worshippers in the swamp. Shadow Over Innsmouth? Again, the town is backward, cut off from the sort of education and culture that Lovecraft considers positive. Facts Concerning the Late Arthur Jermyn only makes sense if the protagonist is opposed to being descended from beings he feels are "inferior" - so it can easily be glossed as "OH MY GOD BLACK AND WHITE PEOPLE ARE FROM THE SAME EVOLUTIONARY BRANCH".

Lovecraft never actually persuades the reader of his views. I don't think he wanted to. But the point is, if Lovecraft's stories were read by someone who knew little about race, or who lived in a racist society, then this reader might end up thinking about race the same way Lovecraft does, because this is what they have to draw on when thinking about it. It's powerful *because* it doesn't actually say "Hey, black people and Jews are inferior!" - it just implies it, so you don't notice it.

And this Lovecraft example is not a problem, as you point out. We know how to read Lovecraft without becoming racist. But what about all the other books and films or whatever that have their own implicit assumptions, which have this power simply because it's difficult to notice them? That's why it's important to keep thinking about this and talking about this, so that we can absorb fiction responsibly (as we do now with Lovecraft).
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 15, 2013, 11:44:03 AM
And yet another thread becomes about anti-Semitism.  Excellent work, everyone.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Tomatensaft on June 15, 2013, 11:52:30 AM
Honesty I am of the belief that an author's work should stand on its own separate from the author who wrote it. All this channeling the author to see the "hidden narrative" ends up just misrepresenting the story anyhow that often takes these notions and turns them into a good story.

Nyeah, I feel you on this. This is a very bad way of arguing you especially find when it comes to things that are considered to be "art" – which is actually just a category for the works of people who want  to create art, but usually used as a sign of quality and a label for things you can not dislike but just "not understand".

Nevertheless, I wouldn't turn that into an argument against the existence of "hidden narratives". First and foremost, because "hidden narratives" doesn't mean that you can only find them if you know about the artist's biography. Gender roles for example are more or less obvious even if you need a bunch of historians to find out who the writer actually is.

And this also goes for things that might be harder to "uncover". Those reactionist polemics against the big city and the big city life for example, you find -afaik- also in Lovecraft's stories: a schmaltzy idealization of the past, of small town life and nature, as a contradiction to the decadent big city where everything is fake and plastic and impure, and full of pervert queers and kinksters, jews and brown people, a dirty underclass and unhealthy food. This is also something you can trace back from the early 19th century up to modern conservatives.

(Although it's not only the conservatives, because this is one of the things where the left and the right are dangerously close to each other. I've read lately that this anti-catholic songwriter Sinead O'Connor got terribly booed out once at a Bob Dylan tribute concert. And that didn't really surprise me since a good deal of Dylan's fanbase is exactly made out of those anti-modernist new age hippies who idealize or even deify nature and purity, believe in all kinds of esotericism and preach soya, tofu and ascesis as a solution for modern "decadence". And from that point of view it's not a long way to booing out a feminist singer who criticizes religion and defends abortion rights.)

So: yes, an artist's work has to stand on its own when it comes to the quality of the work – but when it comes to it's meaning(s) then it's appropriate to have a look at the author's biogprahy or the circumstances in which he wrote it etc. He could also be a bad artist or make mistakes like everyone else and then his work becomes another meaning than intended. Apart of that, there are of course things you can only cherish if you understand the references. If you never heard of Sigmund Freud and his famous couch then a Woody Allen movie might not be that entertaining for you.

Also: Tomatensaft, you got me posting again because you seemed clever, so thank you. It had to be someone who liked Wagner. :) *is going to all the Ring proms in London in July* :D

Hehe, thank you and have fun! Although I'm not even such a big Wagner fan since the plot of an opera isn't that important for me. I'm more for Mozart who said that the words and the plot of an opera should be "the music's obedient daughter". And of course: with that attitude you can't fully enjoy "musical dramas" in which words and music are meant to be equal. Rossini once said about Wagner that his music has some magnificent moments but a lot of terrible quarter hours. Which is exactly how I feel about him.  ;D
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 15, 2013, 12:01:19 PM
"the music's obedient daughter"

SEXIST!!!  ;)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Tomatensaft on June 15, 2013, 12:27:44 PM
"the music's obedient daughter"

SEXIST!!!  ;)

Hahaha! Well ... "Caught in the act" is the saying, I think.  ;D
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 15, 2013, 04:20:25 PM
Quote
Lovecraft never actually persuades the reader of his views. I don't think he wanted to. But the point is, if Lovecraft's stories were read by someone who knew little about race, or who lived in a racist society, then this reader might end up thinking about race the same way Lovecraft does, because this is what they have to draw on when thinking about it. It's powerful *because* it doesn't actually say "Hey, black people and Jews are inferior!" - it just implies it, so you don't notice it

Ok, then lets just ask the major question.

How? How does this happen?

Quote
And yet another thread becomes about anti-Semitism.  Excellent work, everyone

It is being used as the example of which we are drawing upon the same methodologies that are applied to sexism. Or rather we are drawing parallels to anti-Semitic writing and anti-feministic writing.

So no we are still on sexism but right now we are discussing the idea of subliminal writing.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: LadyTerra on June 15, 2013, 09:10:16 PM
Quote
Lovecraft never actually persuades the reader of his views. I don't think he wanted to. But the point is, if Lovecraft's stories were read by someone who knew little about race, or who lived in a racist society, then this reader might end up thinking about race the same way Lovecraft does, because this is what they have to draw on when thinking about it. It's powerful *because* it doesn't actually say "Hey, black people and Jews are inferior!" - it just implies it, so you don't notice it

Ok, then lets just ask the major question.

How? How does this happen?

Lack of knowledge.  If you didn't understand what racism was, you wouldn't recognize it.  And if you didn't know anything about other races, you'd be more inclined to agree with the first few bits of information about them, even if they were wrong.  Same situation with any -ism.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 16, 2013, 12:03:56 AM
Quote
Lack of knowledge.  If you didn't understand what racism was, you wouldn't recognize it.  And if you didn't know anything about other races, you'd be more inclined to agree with the first few bits of information about them, even if they were wrong.  Same situation with any -ism.

So then you basically invalidated Anita's entire argument and the entire reason it is called "Tropes Versus Women".
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: LadyTerra on June 16, 2013, 09:30:41 AM
Not really.  While I find her videos more and more frustrating due to the lack of research, she is bringing attention to a serious problem in our media.  Unfortunately, with how publicly charged this issue became, threads like this are probably going to be the only way we can talk about this, and there's no way anyone can reach Anita to even correct her. 

What would be really cool is if we had a discussion between women actually in the games industry and get their input, maybe as a panel at a convention since talking face-to-face with people reduces the chance of trolling.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 16, 2013, 02:27:41 PM
Not really.  While I find her videos more and more frustrating due to the lack of research, she is bringing attention to a serious problem in our media.  Unfortunately, with how publicly charged this issue became, threads like this are probably going to be the only way we can talk about this, and there's no way anyone can reach Anita to even correct her.

I agree with this.

The thing I find really frustrating is that people are equating the seriousness of the issue and even debates of its very existence with criticism of the quality of Anita's specific work and research into it.  These are two separate things.  I am in full agreement that the video game industry has a sexism problem.  I just think Anita is doing an utterly s****y job of researching and discussing it--and I think her poor handling of public relations is undermining the whole public conversation.

"Anita--you feel like people aren't taking you seriously?  DO A BETTER JOB."   :suffer:
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 16, 2013, 07:20:49 PM
Quote
"Anita--you feel like people aren't taking you seriously?  DO A BETTER JOB."

I could easily predict the exact words that would come out of her mouth had you said that to her.

But she is doing that already.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on June 17, 2013, 09:03:17 AM
Actually, Lady Terra, they had something exactly like that at this year's GDC. You can watch it here: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1018080/
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Rosella on June 17, 2013, 09:30:34 AM
David Gaider also had a great talk about sex in video games (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1017796/Sex-in-Video) (and sexism and sexuality) which is much less about women in the games industry but is about women in games. :P

Anita Sarkeesian was there. XD

Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 17, 2013, 03:56:31 PM
This response video is very close to the way I feel about the issue.  This is NOT your typical anti-feminism response--this guy contributed to the kickstarter and defends its validity, but does a good job of highlighting the real problems with the way she has handled public relations, among other things.

http://youtu.be/0kHOn1UsWao
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on June 18, 2013, 08:58:45 AM
Also: Tomatensaft, you got me posting again because you seemed clever, so thank you.
Yay! Deloria! And good job, Tomatensaft!
Quote
Lovecraft never actually persuades the reader of his views. I don't think he wanted to. But the point is, if Lovecraft's stories were read by someone who knew little about race, or who lived in a racist society, then this reader might end up thinking about race the same way Lovecraft does, because this is what they have to draw on when thinking about it. It's powerful *because* it doesn't actually say "Hey, black people and Jews are inferior!" - it just implies it, so you don't notice it

Ok, then lets just ask the major question.

How? How does this happen?
Very gradually. If it were blatant, people would recognize it and dismiss it if it went against their views. Because it is subtle, people won't tend to analyze it. A single book/game/movie/whatever isn't going to make any significant difference. It's when a large proportion of the media you consume that it starts to significantly affect the way you think about it. I think that's part of Anita's point. Isolated cases of these "tropes vs. women" aren't such a problem - it's the fact that they are pervasive throughout society that perpetuates negative attitudes toward women.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on June 18, 2013, 01:40:01 PM
David Gaider also had a great talk about sex in video games (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1017796/Sex-in-Video) (and sexism and sexuality) which is much less about women in the games industry but is about women in games. :P

Anita Sarkeesian was there. XD
I just watched it - it's really well done. Going back to the topic of privilege, he made this statement:
Quote
Privilege is when you think that something's not a problem because it's not a problem for you personally. If you're part of a group that's being catered to, you believe that's the way it should be - it's always been that way. Why would that be a problem for anyone?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 18, 2013, 03:57:39 PM
Quote
Very gradually

No, no, no... That is when it happens.

How does it happen?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Numbers on June 18, 2013, 06:09:47 PM
It happened because Lorelei Shannon--a woman--was mostly in charge of KQ7 and Mark Seibert--a man--was mostly in charge of MoE. It all comes back to King's Quest. Everything.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: GrahamRocks! on June 18, 2013, 06:30:46 PM
Wasn't Jane in charge of KQ6?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 18, 2013, 07:16:32 PM
Wasn't Jane in charge of KQ6?

Yep.  The whiniest and most romantic of all the King's Quests.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Numbers on June 18, 2013, 07:29:26 PM
"WAIT! I must rescue the princess!"
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: GrahamRocks! on June 18, 2013, 07:47:33 PM
 ::) *chuckles and shakes her head* Sure, Lambchop. Suuuuure!
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on June 19, 2013, 08:18:48 AM
Quote
Very gradually

No, no, no... That is when it happens.

How does it happen?
Read the rest of my response. The media you consume affects the way you think. People (especially children) identify with the characters and don't necessarily judge or analyze their thoughts and actions but rather accept them as "just the way things are."
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2013, 02:15:20 PM
Quote
The media you consume affects the way you think

Ok so magic

Quote
People (especially children) identify with the characters and don't necessarily judge or analyze their thoughts and actions but rather accept them as "just the way things are."

And stupidity!

If this doesn't apply in most situations in media then it certainly needs a better explanation. Where the only mechanic here is that "Ohh these two stories have a male protagonist. I guess only men can be heroic" and that certainly has not become the case, there is an issue.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: darthkiwi on June 19, 2013, 02:57:42 PM
Quote
The media you consume affects the way you think

Ok so magic

Quote
People (especially children) identify with the characters and don't necessarily judge or analyze their thoughts and actions but rather accept them as "just the way things are."

And stupidity!

If this doesn't apply in most situations in media then it certainly needs a better explanation. Where the only mechanic here is that "Ohh these two stories have a male protagonist. I guess only men can be heroic" and that certainly has not become the case, there is an issue.

Neonivek, there are people whose job it is to analyse this stuff. They're called academics. People have known about this for decades, if not longer. It even has a wiki page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_influence). Not a very good one, but still.

You're very much in the minority here.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on June 19, 2013, 04:18:46 PM
Quote
The media you consume affects the way you think

Ok so magic

Quote
People (especially children) identify with the characters and don't necessarily judge or analyze their thoughts and actions but rather accept them as "just the way things are."

And stupidity!

If this doesn't apply in most situations in media then it certainly needs a better explanation. Where the only mechanic here is that "Ohh these two stories have a male protagonist. I guess only men can be heroic" and that certainly has not become the case, there is an issue.
Okay, so media uses very specific symbols that people associate certain things with. The specific symbols vary from culture to culture and time to time and depend on what the media in question is trying to turn you against, but every culture has them. This is something called propaganda. It has been partially responsible for many conflicts. Propaganda can be expressed in a variety of media including speeches, images, games and video.

These symbols are often stereotypes and play on the associations people already have with those symbols (often based on other media and social perceptions). If you look at propaganda out of context, you're likely not going to get it, so there is literature out there aimed at decoding these things for you if you know what to look for and you will have to be familiar with the background of the media and the culture it exists within if you hope to truly understand the internal conflicts depicted.

People who are influenced by media are not weak-minded or stupid; they just usually don't think critically about the media they're consuming. That's why this is dangerous. If you're interested in discussing this further, I'd urge you to find a caricature or some other type of media you think is objective and we can deconstruct it together here. :)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2013, 04:35:57 PM
Quote
This is something called propaganda.

Yes but we are not talking about propaganda. We are talking about...

You are a person who believes that bread is a terrible food. So you write a book where you write about another food in a similar way you write about bread as inspiration for your ooze.

The premise that I was being sent is that: "The fact that you dislike bread will pass through the writing and be known subconsciously by the reader who will over years start to dislike bread"

Sort of takes on an entirely different meaning when I actually state what I am talking against doesn't it?

"You're very much in the minority here"

No, I really don't think I am. If you cut away the fluff all that you are left with is the actual arguments.

People not knowing what they are arguing against does not, to me at least, constitute that it is their actual opinion.

Not unless the vast majority of women are against the vote because they didn't know what the word "Suffrage" meant.

I am not arguing against media influence as a whole but rather a very specific kind being argued here that upgrades media to outright mind control.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Numbers on June 19, 2013, 06:01:30 PM

You are a person who believes that bread is a terrible food. So you write a book where you write about another food in a similar way you write about bread as inspiration for your ooze.


What is this, I don't even...
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 19, 2013, 08:08:09 PM

People who are influenced by media are not weak-minded or stupid; they just usually don't think critically about the media they're consuming.

Wouldn't a lack of critical thinking be part of what defines stupidity in a person?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Rosella on June 19, 2013, 11:31:05 PM
Not analyzing everything doesn't mean you're stupid. If a professor writes a formula on a board, you're probably not going to spend too much time analyzing the derivation or trying to prove it mathematically if you're just trying to study for a test. It doesn't mean you're not capable of doing it, though.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Delling on June 20, 2013, 06:35:49 AM
Sorry for the long post. Have been busy/away. If TL;DR is an issue for you, consider it as two posts run together (b/c pulling in one post as a supporting argument exploded on me causing me to reply to it too).

I am not arguing against media influence as a whole but rather a very specific kind being argued here that upgrades media to outright mind control.
No one however is arguing that media equates to mind control, well, except for you in your interpretation of others.

Everyone has said that the effects are subtle and gradual. Mind control and systematic indoctrination are neither of those things.

Quote
The media you consume affects the way you think

Ok so magic

Quote
People (especially children) identify with the characters and don't necessarily judge or analyze their thoughts and actions but rather accept them as "just the way things are."

And stupidity!

If this doesn't apply in most situations in media then it certainly needs a better explanation. Where the only mechanic here is that "Ohh these two stories have a male protagonist. I guess only men can be heroic" and that certainly has not become the case, there is an issue.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. (http://advgamer.blogspot.ie/2012/05/game-18-kings-quest-iv-introduction.html) Stop. (http://my.ilstu.edu/~ajskorp/wvg/80s/rosella.shtml) Hold everything. (http://www.adventureclassicgaming.com/index.php/site/features/151/) You want to say that there WASN'T or was never a culture in which protagonists were predominantly male... on a KQ forum... KQ... the series which has garnered praise for having a female lead in its fourth installment at a time when most main/player characters were guys... ... ...

Back on point though, I only trotted out this post (initially) to point out that ascribing "magic" and "mind control" to "media" further points to the fundamental misunderstanding of how culture works and reinforces itself.

On yet another hand (so much to rip through and digest in just this one post), if you feel it is stupid to consume media without considering its internal portrayal of the status quo, what is your genuine complaint here? Everyone else is pretty much just saying "we should increase awareness of what we consume because it affects our thinking." Your complaint seems to be to say "nuh-uh" to their reason ("...because it affects our thinking"), so then why is it stupid not to be aware and what then is the motivation to be aware for you? Or is it that you think after one has developed so much or has such a level of intelligence one becomes immune to these cultural influences?

Quote
This is something called propaganda.

Yes but we are not talking about propaganda. We are talking about...
What we are talking about is "culture" and its messages. Your response (magic & mind control, etc.) implies to me that you assume that propaganda needs some animus or intention behind it. It doesn't. Propaganda can simply be the propagation of messages already present and endemic in the culture rather than the specific production of media to produce a change in the way society thinks.


You are a person who believes that bread is a terrible food. So you write a book where you write about another food in a similar way you write about bread as inspiration for your ooze.

The premise that I was being sent is that: "The fact that you dislike bread will pass through the writing and be known subconsciously by the reader who will over years start to dislike bread"
Except that isn't anything like what anyone has said here: "damsel in distress"--right, so we've got Princess Peach, right, and we have her kidnapped by Bowser, right, and then we show her with arms flailing in obvious distress, and then Mario saves her.

Damsel. In. Distress.

No one has put their bread in your shopping basket as you approached the till so that you suddenly find you've bought some bread. The bread was very obviously in your shopping the whole time and even shouted out for you to hear "HEY, YOU GOT SOME BREAD IN HERE!"

This is similarly true with Lovecraft and the split in socioeconomic status and origins and race of his protagonists and antagonists, though there if you want to find the arm flailing you have to look into his life.

I agree that Anita could have done better research and made better arguments, but I won't agree that blindly and blithely consuming media has no effect on subconscious thought or on shaping how we frame our own thoughts and messages.

Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Deloria on June 20, 2013, 06:50:41 AM
@Neonivek: Anything trying to promote an opinion is propaganda, this includes much media as it's impossible to read an unbiased article (i.e. one that isn't coloured by the writer's own social environment).

I actually think a lot of people are missing many of Anita's points by applying them only to males. I don't think she is approaching this project exclusively from a misandrist/androcentric point of view. These tropes are problematic *for females* and *for victims* as well. They're problematic for females  because they tell them how to act and what is acceptable behaviour (http://fugitivus.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/another-post-about-rape-3/), and they're problematic for victims because they make it seem like the victims can't save themselves.


Quote
If women are raised being told by parents, teachers, media, peers, and all surrounding social strata that:

    it is not okay to set solid and distinct boundaries and reinforce them immediately and dramatically when crossed (“mean b****”)
    it is not okay to appear distraught or emotional (“crazy b****”)
    it is not okay to make personal decisions that the adults or other peers in your life do not agree with, and it is not okay to refuse to explain those decisions to others (“stuck-up b****”)
    it is not okay to refuse to agree with somebody, over and over and over again (“angry b****”)
    it is not okay to have (or express) conflicted, fluid, or experimental feelings about yourself, your body, your sexuality, your desires, and your needs (“b**** got daddy issues”)
    it is not okay to use your physical strength (if you have it) to set physical boundaries (“dyke b****”)
    it is not okay to raise your voice (“shrill b****”)
    it is not okay to completely and utterly shut down somebody who obviously likes you (“mean dyke/frigid b****”)
     
If we teach women that there are only certain ways they may acceptably behave, we should not be surprised when they behave in those ways.

And we should not be surprised when they behave these ways during attempted or completed rapes.

And these tropes perpetuate stereotypes that are harmful. And the propagandistic misogynistic media we internalise is a huge part of the reason we have a rape culture. And the propagandistic misogynistic media we internalise is also the reason many people don't think or believe we have a rape culture. But only in a society where females are often not considered people with rights over their own body would things like this (http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_news/article/Jury-acquits-escort-shooter-4581027.php) and the three cases detailed here (http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/steubenville-humiliation-was-the-point-of-the-exercise/) happen and keep happening because no one can stop things like this overnight because it's deeply entrenched in the way society thinks. You too are guilty of this if you've ever seen a girl or a woman get hit on repeatedly when she didn't want or like the attention and thought to yourself that she deserved it because of the way she looked.

My point is: there is misogyny in our society. It is deeply entrenched in it and it presents as the justice system fundamentally failing at recognising women as people with bodily autonomy. The media we consume feeds these conceptions of women. The media expresses itself in games as these tropes. 
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 20, 2013, 08:35:16 AM
Quote
If women are raised being told by parents, teachers, media, peers, and all surrounding social strata that:

    it is not okay to set solid and distinct boundaries and reinforce them immediately and dramatically when crossed (“mean b****”)
    it is not okay to appear distraught or emotional (“crazy b****”)
    it is not okay to make personal decisions that the adults or other peers in your life do not agree with, and it is not okay to refuse to explain those decisions to others (“stuck-up b****”)
    it is not okay to refuse to agree with somebody, over and over and over again (“angry b****”)
    it is not okay to have (or express) conflicted, fluid, or experimental feelings about yourself, your body, your sexuality, your desires, and your needs (“b**** got daddy issues”)
    it is not okay to use your physical strength (if you have it) to set physical boundaries (“dyke b****”)
    it is not okay to raise your voice (“shrill b****”)
    it is not okay to completely and utterly shut down somebody who obviously likes you (“mean dyke/frigid b****”)
     
If we teach women that there are only certain ways they may acceptably behave, we should not be surprised when they behave in those ways.

@Deloria:  So are you essentially saying that women behave this way because of reverse psychology??  That seems a bit of an oversimplification, doesn't it?

Also, several of the things on those list would be obnoxious and socially unacceptable coming from a man, too.  Does that mean we should be teaching our male children that it's okay to be an a******?


@Rosella: I wasn't referring to a lack of over-analysis of every little thing being a factor of stupidity (besides, that's not really what we mean by critical thinking, anyway.)  That would suggest that anyone on this forum who doesn't post unnecessary walls of text is stupid.  And I certainly don't believe that.  ;)  What I was thinking was more the inability to think critically when it is warranted.  One of the reasons we teach critical thinking in schools is because most people need to be able to do it on a day to day basis on order to be successful in this world.  That's not such an outlandish idea, is it?  :)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Delling on June 20, 2013, 09:19:20 AM
Quote
If women are raised being told by parents, teachers, media, peers, and all surrounding social strata that:

    it is not okay to set solid and distinct boundaries and reinforce them immediately and dramatically when crossed (“mean b****”)
    it is not okay to appear distraught or emotional (“crazy b****”)
    it is not okay to make personal decisions that the adults or other peers in your life do not agree with, and it is not okay to refuse to explain those decisions to others (“stuck-up b****”)
    it is not okay to refuse to agree with somebody, over and over and over again (“angry b****”)
    it is not okay to have (or express) conflicted, fluid, or experimental feelings about yourself, your body, your sexuality, your desires, and your needs (“b**** got daddy issues”)
    it is not okay to use your physical strength (if you have it) to set physical boundaries (“dyke b****”)
    it is not okay to raise your voice (“shrill b****”)
    it is not okay to completely and utterly shut down somebody who obviously likes you (“mean dyke/frigid b****”)
     
If we teach women that there are only certain ways they may acceptably behave, we should not be surprised when they behave in those ways.

@Deloria:  So are you essentially saying that women behave this way because of reverse psychology??  That seems a bit of an oversimplification, doesn't it?

Also, several of the things on those list would be obnoxious and socially unacceptable coming from a man, too.  Does that mean we should be teaching our male children that it's okay to be an a******?

@Rosella: I wasn't referring to a lack of over-analysis of every little thing being a factor of stupidity (besides, that's not really what we mean by critical thinking, anyway.)  That would suggest that anyone on this forum who doesn't post unnecessary walls of text is stupid.  And I certainly don't believe that.  ;)  What I was thinking was more the inability to think critically when it is warranted.  One of the reasons we teach critical thinking in schools is because most people need to be able to do it on a day to day basis on order to be successful in this world.  That's not such an outlandish idea, is it?  :)

Behave what way? The thesis of the article is that many women do not behave in those ways listed even when doing so would be an act of self-preservation and that they do not do so because they are told not to by all of their surrounding culture and authority figures. A thesis laid out in the very quote given: "If we teach women that there are only certain ways they may acceptably behave, we should not be surprised when they behave in those ways."

As for teaching sons to be jerks? Not really. The point is that making these things unbreakable laws of behavior promotes ongoing social victimization (since you brought guys into--yes, ongoing victimization of BOTH genders), and yes, that victimization contributes to rape culture because it provides another tool for victim blaming, for rape apologia, and for manipulating a situation or person so that rapists can engage in rape.

Those are all rules of "acceptable" social behavior that ONLY work in a context of mutuality of respect: when someone else breaks those rules, they no longer apply. That's not how they are culturally understood: instead they are used to enforce a perceived norm of dominant groups. For instance, "it is not okay to use your physical strength (if you have it) to set physical boundaries" what if someone else has physically violated your personal space, comfort, or person? Such as say, a streaker lewdly dancing in your presence and harassing you, specifically following you. I say keep moving to leave and when he keeps following you? Snap kick him in the groin. Now, let's apply a setting? Randomly out in public? People won't mind that you defended yourself; hell, they might applaud especially if the harassment had gone on for some time. At some frat party on a college campus? "You can't take a joke."

And that's what's wrong here.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 20, 2013, 09:40:44 AM
Ah--yes, you're right.  I did misread the last sentence in that quote.  Though, to be fair, it could be more clearly worded.  I interpreted it to mean that we shouldn't be surprised if women behave in the ways we teach them NOT to behave.  Which is an argument I've definitely heard before, by the way.  :)

But the rest of my point, that certain behaviors are socially awkward/unacceptable regardless of genders still stands.  Some of those points are being misleadingly suggested only to apply to women, as though we wouldn't also consider a man who does those things to be a jerk.  For example, raising one's voice and acting over-dramatically in public--we'd find that obnoxious regardless of the gender of the person who is doing it.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 20, 2013, 10:53:50 AM
I am gone for one second and there is too much post to deal with... but let me deal with the most the fastest

Quote
Except that isn't anything like what anyone has said here

It is a few pages back but we certainly did.

Canada is interesting, it has most of the same media the United States has and yet their cultures are very distinct.

Quote
No one however is arguing that media equates to mind control, well, except for you in your interpretation of others

Ok, that's it... Proving time.

Quote
The problem is, how many people read Lovecraft, or other writers, and DON'T notice the racist undertones? When you're aware of these undertones they lose their power to influence you. (Mostly.) But if you don't notice them - if you get swept up in the story as we all want to be and you just accept the fact that the "primitive", "degenerate" "savages" are all Jews or black people or indigenous people BECAUSE YOU'RE ENJOYING THE STORY - then you'll internalise all the stuff he *implicitly* says about them. This isn't the best example because our views on race have changed a lot, but imagine you're someone from the 1930s. You're racist, sexist and believe whites are superior, because almost every white person believed these things back then, and I want to put you in the mind of the oppressive, culturally dominant group. And next time you see a Jew, you'll think "Oh, it's a Jew, like in that story I read." You won't just blindly assume this person is going to go and do a horrific Lovecraftian ritual, but you probably WILL think that they are secretive and have an inferior culture. Not because you've read Lovecraft and agree with him, but because you've read Lovecraft *and you never stopped to think about how he portrayed Jews*.


There you go.

Now that, that, wipes out 99% of all the criticism pointed at me... I guess I responded to everyone :D
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Numbers on June 20, 2013, 01:01:10 PM
I have to say, I admire the people in this thread to take the time to post their thoughts. One thing I feel I should mention is that critical thinking may have been taught in your schools, but mine? Nope. My education system never taught me how to use critical thinking. Never. All of my education was based on how quickly you could memorize a bunch of crap before you take a test, then purge it from your mind, never to use it again. I could memorize anything the teachers could throw at me, because they never relied on critical thinking to educate their students.

This left me completely unprepared for college, obviously. Thus, I could pretty much ace any memorization test...but if a teacher asked me to get up in front of the class and give a class discussion regarding the effects of propaganda in the media, my first reaction would be to think "well THIS is gonna suck." I am capable of critical thinking, of course, but hardly ever use it. If someone challenged me to a game of chess, I'd probably just sit there wondering what the hell I'm supposed to do. As such, I again think it's very impressive that everyone here is taking the time to discuss their views on what is really a pretty complicated issue.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 20, 2013, 01:08:09 PM
I am the complete opposite... Memorization is where I am weakest, yet understanding the themes and intricacies of the topic as well as being able to unit all subjects into one is something I can do very well.

So I can read a novel for example and not remember everyone's names. Yet I'd be able to tell you a detailed analysis of the book, its themes, as well as the personality profiles of all the characters.

In fact I love to analyze things for fun. Which I guess is something Anita did, I mean I agree with most of what she says but not the way she says it, but I think I enjoyed picking her video apart into its individual elements more then actually watching it.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on June 20, 2013, 01:22:18 PM
Ok. Darthkiwi's example was probably a bit over-simplified. A person's way of thinking may not be greatly affected by reading a single book (or even a single author), but when you consume content with a bias over a long period of time, it can affect you. I can't tell you how it works, but others have pointed you to information about that.

As far as analyzing what's important, I think it's common to specifically NOT analyze entertainment - it's just "for fun." Analyzing is work. I've found that people get exasperated when others over-analyze their favorite media.

Neonivek, it's great that you are good at and enjoy analysis - just keep in mind that not everybody is like that. In fact, I would guess it's somewhat of a rare trait (probably more common among academics and other highly educated people, though).
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 20, 2013, 01:41:08 PM
At it's heart, all critical thinking really is is the ability to decide for yourself whether or not a thing or set of things is true or false, the ability to decide whether or not it is that way in every situation, and the ability to explain why.  Anything beyond that is over-complicating the definition.  :)  Everyone has the basic capacity for critical thought.  But as with all things, practice makes you better at it.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: snabbott on June 20, 2013, 04:00:18 PM
Of course. Some people are less practiced at it than others, though.

Also, it occurred to me that if you listen to too much ZZ Top, you may find yourself believing that "Every girl's crazy about a sharp-dressed man." :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 20, 2013, 04:24:21 PM
Also, it occurred to me that if you listen to too much ZZ Top, you may find yourself believing that "Every girl's crazy about a sharp-dressed man." :P

Excellent point.  I'd also argue that ZZ Top reinforces unrealistic beard stereotypes against men.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on June 21, 2013, 04:58:46 AM
Every girl IS crazy about a sharp dressed man.  Also, beards.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Lambonius on June 21, 2013, 11:02:02 AM
Also, anti-Semitism!   :suffer:
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: LadyTerra on June 21, 2013, 05:51:44 PM
Definitely not that last one, though that assumes I'm a girl.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on June 21, 2013, 06:14:31 PM
Every girl IS crazy about a sharp dressed man.  Also, beards.


Bt

Also Men
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Bludshot on August 02, 2013, 04:31:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjImnqH_KwM

Last of the videos about the damsel in distress trope.  Essentially a closing argument.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on August 02, 2013, 04:49:08 PM
I don't think I am ready for this... I mean she is pretty bad all things considered.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Numbers on August 03, 2013, 07:06:11 PM
I finally got around to watching her first video. She lost me after the first five minutes. I really don't know why I bothered.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on August 04, 2013, 12:58:53 AM
I finally got around to watching her first video. She lost me after the first five minutes. I really don't know why I bothered.

Mostly I think it is three things
1) She generated hype for her videos. She isn't just some person with a youtube account, by all means she is "professional"
2) It is an important subject and deserves observation
and
3) It is something we all know about in very detailed way.

The problem ultimately is... she isn't very good. I've seen more thinking put into the videos that agree or disagree with her (And less thinking too... ugh)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Numbers on August 04, 2013, 06:48:00 PM
The thing is, this subject has already been done to death. And guess what? Nothing's changed. At all. And I can guarantee that it won't change as long as superficial people exist on this planet.

Besides, her presentation is just so bad. Everyone and their dog knows what a damsel in distress is, you don't need to give a condescending, long-winded explanation of what it is.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on August 04, 2013, 09:38:38 PM
One of her stretch goals was developing a curriculum with the videos so that they could be used for educational purposes as well. Between that and defining your terms, which is often done in debates or presentations to be absolutely certain everyone is on the same page with what you're discussing, defining the term makes a lot of sense here.

Additionally, it makes sense with her overall goal--if you're aiming to deconstruct something to examine it closely, then yes, you need to be specific about what it is you're examining and deconstructing.

As before, I enjoyed the video and found it interesting. I liked the proposed non-damsel plot given at the end as well. :) And I appreciate that she didn't exclude indie games from the examples on either side--I mention that one because I saw someone on twitter saying something to the effect of not liking that she'd done that. But just because you're indie and not an AAA studio, or vice versa, doesn't somehow excuse you from criticisms or close examinations, etc. It was a strange comment, basically, or so I thought.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on August 05, 2013, 06:31:47 AM
the heck? Braid? Really? Braid? Why did she name Braid? She does know there is no "princess" in Braid, right?

Also why did she name fist Puncher? Your hero can be anything in that game, a woman, a unicorn (yes, really, a unicorn.) anything! Why did she name those games? o.O
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: GrahamRocks! on August 05, 2013, 07:57:46 AM
I thought there was a princess in Braid, but she wasn't trying to be rescued by you?

Then again, I've never played Braid.

A... Unicorn? Wouldn't it be called Hoof Puncher then in that case?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on August 05, 2013, 08:04:30 AM
There is no "main character" in fist puncher, your character is a sprite and your sprite can be anything, a man, a woman, a unicorn, really, anything. That's why her criticism doesn't make sense

but the real issue is Braid, naming Braid there is so bad I'd argue she never even played the game

There is no Princess, the game is all in Tim's mind, he was responsible for the creation of the Atom Bomb and the entire game is an allegory for Atomic warfare. So in reality there is no "princess", she's a metaphor and Tim is not a hero, he's a monster

Fist Puncher I can kinda see what she's going for even if I don't agree with it. But Braid? Really?
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: KatieHal on August 05, 2013, 11:29:27 AM
I also haven't yet played Braid, but even if the whole story is an extended allegory, you DO still spend the whole game (or a significant chunk of it, since that's what all screenshots and videos of it show) playing a male character and chasing after a princess character.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: stika on August 05, 2013, 11:43:03 AM
I suppose you have a point :\
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on August 05, 2013, 01:23:22 PM
I thought there was a princess in Braid, but she wasn't trying to be rescued by you?

Then again, I've never played Braid.

A... Unicorn? Wouldn't it be called Hoof Puncher then in that case?

Braid was a perhaps not a deconstruction but it didn't have a damsel.

It pretended to have a damsel but only for you the player to draw the parallels between what superficially was going on in the game and what was actually going on.

I also haven't yet played Braid, but even if the whole story is an extended allegory, you DO still spend the whole game (or a significant chunk of it, since that's what all screenshots and videos of it show) playing a male character and chasing after a princess character.

Sort of... You are made to believe that is what you are doing.

If Anita actually used that as a pure example of that trope (which there is nooo way she could have... did she?) then maybe she should replay it.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Numbers on August 05, 2013, 02:41:52 PM
I haven't looked any further into it, but I have seen accusations that she doesn't understand games nearly as well as she thinks she does. Also, there seem to be multiple instances where she focuses exclusively on what she finds offensive, to the exclusion of other, more glaring problems with the source material. For example, on TV Tropes, under the Complaining About Shows You Don't Watch heading, is this paragraph:

"An egregious example is the video game Bayonetta. Even leaving aside the fact that the character can easily be interpreted as a satire of the adolescence pandering she accuses her to be (which even at worst, it would suffer the Truffaut Was Right problem. At worst), she gave away many hints that she actually didn't play the game much, if at all. The biggest one is when she says Bayonetta is a single mother, something that is just not true. Bayonetta does play the Action Mom trope, but only metaphorically (Sarkeesian portrays it in the video as if she is a literal single mom). And even that is a stretch considering the girl she takes care of
is HERSELF from the past.
Made even worse by saying, even stressing, that that's her one and only positive character trait..."[/i]

Again, I have no idea whether she actually said this or not, as I haven't seen it myself, but if she did, then all I have to say is this:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_FR3ACrPgZUI/TBr_-n9AcqI/AAAAAAAAAls/PgbFgMjPoGY/s1600/JesusFacepalm.jpg)
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on August 05, 2013, 03:31:52 PM
Quote
Made even worse by saying, even stressing, that that's her one and only positive character trait...

What? WHAT!?!

She didn't play it much? More like she didn't play it at all.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Blackthorne on August 05, 2013, 06:22:57 PM
This girl makes Forest Gump look like Goethe.


Bt
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: LadyTerra on August 05, 2013, 06:56:10 PM
Something interesting I noticed about this last video: when she talked about how you could change out the damsel in Spelunky for a dog or a guy in a speedo and bowtie, did anyone think that maybe she's overlooking that having that guy dressed like that as a damsel is encouraging a bad stereotype of gay men?  I mean, when I see gay guys in a lot of media, they're usually portrayed like that.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Neonivek on August 05, 2013, 11:00:40 PM
Ok this video... is actually REALLY good for Anita... It actually is much better then her first two.

Yet the only part that actually ticks me off is that every single time, since the very first video, she talks about subverting her trope it is always "The Damsel picks up the heroes clothing and weapons and kicks butt".

Why is it always that the damsel can NEVER be the hero unless she becomes exactly like the hero?

Actually it REALLY ticks me off... I've actually found myself going into a rant. To the point where I call it: Anita Land.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: Rosella on August 06, 2013, 04:42:49 AM
I thought she did a much better job of anticipating counter-arguments in this video. I also cheered when I saw Perils of Rosella but I do that just about any time I see King's Quest in an unexpected place. :P

The main thing that really bothered me was that she insisted at the beginning that damsels in distress were a trope and that Tropes Were Not Bad, but in here she acts like she has proven that the trope is innately harmful.

But yeah, I totally agree that her example of a game subverting the trope does very little to subvert anything. The premise being that she breaks out of her own capture doesn't challenge all that much when it plays like a standard....uh...stealth...action...RPG ...? Oh, I don't know. My point is that the narrative didn't sound like anything relevant aside from the initial bit.

Also, it amuses me the points she made about Thomas Was Alone. Yes, the characters in the game all have personalities and gender, but you wouldn't really get that from watching a bunch of quadrilaterals interact. :P
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: LadyTerra on August 06, 2013, 06:55:03 PM
Well, this video did get me thinking about a game idea about a damsel protagonist that doesn't involve him/her turning into a hack n' slash hero: you're captured by some villain or other, but you can use diplomacy to get the guards to be sympathetic to you, or you can manipulate them to thinking that their boss will betray them, or you could gather other prisoners to help with an escape plot, or a combination.
Title: Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
Post by: GrahamRocks! on August 07, 2013, 08:11:21 PM
Oooh! That would be cool!