True--KQ does very much have its share of damsels. While the scales are tipped in favor of female damsels, though, it does have a good portion of male ones at least: Edgar (twice...or at least 1.5 times), Graham, King Otar, and Alex is one along with the rest of the family in KQ5.
I don't think we need spoiler tags for GK, really :) I agree--Grace is at one point a damsel, but only after spending much of the game actively helping Gabriel, and she's not the only reason he goes into the hounfour, either. And then she's a full-on equal partner in the sequels.
QuoteHeck, even in Leisure Suit Larry, probably the most misogynistic game ever, you get to play as Passionate Patty sometimes.
I'm not sure LSL (the first game, anyway) was misogynistic: it was so ironic, and portrayed Larry as such a loser, that I think players naturally distance themselves from the game. The game-world is intensely misogynistic but it was designed that way to be laughed at.
The game is far more offensive to Larry than the girls. :P
When did Graham need to be rescued?
KQ4--Rosella saves him from dying of his heart attack.
KQ8--Connor saves him, along with the rest of Daventry & the world. Less so here, it's not JUST him by a long stretch, but a point is made to illustrate that Graham is the king of Connor's home kingdom.
Ohhhh! I was thinking literally, like he'd been captured and had to be rescued type of rescue.
Quote from: KatieHal on March 08, 2013, 12:16:18 PM
KQ8--Connor saves him, along with the rest of Daventry & the world. Less so here, it's not JUST him by a long stretch, but a point is made to illustrate that Graham is the king of Connor's home kingdom.
In that sense, Graham represents all of Daventry in that cinematic, I guess.
Quote from: KatieHal on March 08, 2013, 09:50:54 AM
True--KQ does very much have its share of damsels. While the scales are tipped in favor of female damsels, though, it does have a good portion of male ones at least: Edgar (twice...or at least 1.5 times), Graham, King Otar, and Alex is one along with the rest of the family in KQ5.
I don't think we need spoiler tags for GK, really :) I agree--Grace is at one point a damsel, but only after spending much of the game actively helping Gabriel, and she's not the only reason he goes into the hounfour, either. And then she's a full-on equal partner in the sequels.
Better safe than sorry concerning the spoiler tags, I wouldn't want to spoil a game I consider one my top favorites. Not sure I agree on King Otar and 2/3rds of Edgar, since they aren't really objectified in the same way, but I agree KQ generally did better than its contemporaries on this particular trope. :P
Edgar certainly the heck does count
"Edgar my bland and disinteresting but totally into me boyfriend! or how do they say it, Shallow love interest!"
He is an odd case, I sort of agree, hence the fractions. You save him, but it feels pretty incidental, it certainly wasn't a goal of Rosella's in either example.
Quote from: Bludshot on March 08, 2013, 11:10:21 PM
He is an odd case, I sort of agree, hence the fractions. You save him, but it feels pretty incidental, it certainly wasn't a goal of Rosella's in either example.
True in the first case you don't even save him... he is saved indirrectly through your actions. (In fact Edgar would technically be a villain in the first game, as he constantly harasses and kills you)
In the second game you save him but insidently as you didn't know who he was and just chose not to turn him into a bug.
I also like how, at the end of kq4, Rosella
[spoiler]turns down the now-handsome prince in favour of doing her own thing.[/spoiler]
Technically he never kills you in KQ4. :P I wouldn't even call that harassment; he tells his mother he's in love with you so you can prove yourself/not die in a dungeon, then he gives you the key to your room so you can escape even though this sabotages his own wishes and then he makes sure the castle is safe for you after you kill Lolotte. That isn't harassment. It's help.
In KQ7, you actually can't turn him into a bug. The F and T settings are for faerie and troll respectively. By clicking the wand on him, you turn him into a faerie, his true form. By clicking the wand on the other guy, you turn him (the real King Otar) into a bug. You can't kill Edgar here, but you can keep King Otar from being able to deactivate the volcano and thus lose the game. In fact, in KQ7 you can save him through your own actions by using the extra life on his lifeless body. That's an action. :P
Yeah but there are quite a few deaths where Edgar steals a kiss from you... which makes Rosella wretch to death.
I don't remember that. Unless you're talking about the ending where she and Edgar are wed, in which case she just faints.
Quote from: GrahamRocks! on March 09, 2013, 01:42:02 PM
I don't remember that. Unless you're talking about the ending where she and Edgar are wed, in which case she just faints.
I am pretty sure she is dead.
No, she just faints (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dh3L7r_og4M#t=51s). And Edgar has the decency to act very uncomfortable and embarrassed by it. :P
God I hate King's Quest 7.
And I love it, so I guess we cancel each other out. :P
Quote from: Rosella on March 09, 2013, 01:49:28 PM
No, she just faints (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dh3L7r_og4M#t=51s). And Edgar has the decency to act very uncomfortable and embarrassed by it. :P
Then it is a stupid death.
Really Rosella you are letting one wedding stop you?
I, too, royally dislike KQ7, so we're back to one up for the negatory.
Bt
I however like KQ7 and think it is underrated.
Oh boy, here we go again...
Quote from: GrahamRocks! on March 09, 2013, 05:15:09 PM
Oh boy, here we go again...
Naw, we are definately not going to debate KQ7
Everything bad said about KQ7 is true.
::) If you say so, Neo. If you say so.
My point was mostly "Saying you just like or dislike something without giving reasons contributes nothing to discussion." :P
Quote from: Neonivek on March 09, 2013, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: Rosella on March 09, 2013, 01:49:28 PM
No, she just faints (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dh3L7r_og4M#t=51s). And Edgar has the decency to act very uncomfortable and embarrassed by it. :P
Then it is a stupid death.
Really Rosella you are letting one wedding stop you?
I think she loses automatically by virtue of Graham dying. Eating the magic fruit has the same effect. Since it's now impossible to get a good ending, the game ends by "killing" you.
You took the words right out of my mouth, Deloria.
Mods, can one of you split off the KQ7 stuff into a new thread? We've gotten off-topic enough for that here. I'd do it myself if I weren't on my phone right now :)
In before split! KQ7 sucks!! :suffer:
Darn you Lambonius! How dare you be in the topic before the split?
Also, topic was split
Thanks Gonz!
For my part, I think it was flawed but not awful. And as said before, I'm interested in hearing ideas to make it better without a complete and utter rewrite.
I actually started on KQVII after having played through KQVI a few years back, but turned it off rather quickly. That game certainly didn't appeal much to me, on several levels. A lot of it had to do with the graphics and gameplay mechanisms. Can't really say much about the story, since I didn't get too much into it.
The story is disjointed and ludicrous, with absolutely nothing in the way of a satisfying pay-off at the end. Truly one of the worst stories in the KQ series, barring maybe the original KQ2.
Haha, interestingly, KQ2 I also stopped playing because I found it really rather boring in most aspects. And that stopped my whole Sierra Quest roll I was on at the time.
Had gone through a couple of Police Quest and Space Quest games, in addition to KQ and KQVI - then I tried KQVII, quit that, then tried KQII, and that was the end of my roll.
You should give Hero's Quest (Quest for Glory) a spin. The EGA original may be the best Sierra game ever made. They all have pretty solid stories, though, especially number 4.
Cool, I'll keep that in mind! :D
After my father and I played KQ7 for the first time, we had a heart-to-heart discussion about the game. It amounted to this:
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/003/866/nfNeT7YvTozx0cv7ze3mplZpo1_500.gif)
The first time my dad caught me playing KQ7, he took me to the store and bought me a whole carton of KQ7s, and sat there and made me play every last one of them. Needless to say, I never played KQ7 again.
Your metaphor is problematic because it suggests KQ7 is addictive.
Quote from: Lambonius on March 10, 2013, 02:55:16 PM
The first time my dad caught me playing KQ7, he took me to the store and bought me a whole carton of KQ7s, and sat there and made me play every last one of them. Needless to say, I never played KQ7 again.
And it was actions like this that made KQ7 successful enough that they could go on to make Mask of Eternity.
Quote from: Bludshot on March 10, 2013, 04:05:14 PM
Your metaphor is problematic because it suggests KQ7 is addictive.
Ha! Touche.
Fix KQ7? Nah. Slash and burn.
*turns away* I think I shall just ignore that statement and silently disagree.
All I ask is for extremely gory death scenes for our obnoxious protagonists and all of the annoying side characters, complete with the option to re-watch them in slow motion. That by itself would be incentive to play it.
Two words: Nude code.
I thought that was MoE?
The difference is, nobody asked to see Connor's polygonal ass.
In my book, it's flawed, but not a completely terrible game. Yes, there are a lot of things that could have been done better (like not having one cursor do everything). And there were annoying bugs to have to work around that would kill you. (Trying to sneak into the house while the dog barked, getting randomly killed by the boogey man if you didn't talk to Dr. Cadaver come to mind.)
At least it has a Disney-esque intro, everyone loves that! Right...Right?
Agreed! :nod:
I think Stika was being sarcastic, GrahamRocks.
...and if you actually liked that abomination of a musical number, then you are easily amused and your standards are too low. Period.
::) Don't care.
Hey now, be nice. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean others are inferior or something because they do. Everyone's got their own tastes.
For my part, I enjoy the Disney-esque cheesiness of the game. It's a flawed game, but it's got plenty to enjoy as well.
I loved that abomination of a musical number and you will never convince me otherwise. :P
I like to think that I still have a bit of childlike innocence left in me that doesn't really mind these things.
I've never actually played KQ7; I just watched a Let's Play.
Speaking of that intro, did they ever get that rip in space-time continuum in the pond fixed?
The what now?
Even as a child, I would have declared that intro to be a pile of poo.
Bt
Is it bad that I consider it a guilty pleasure?
Quote from: GrahamRocks! on April 22, 2013, 08:30:55 PM
::) Don't care.
Quote from: Rosella on April 22, 2013, 08:52:27 PM
I loved that abomination of a musical number and you will never convince me otherwise. :P
You're just gonna blow me off, huh? Well, I HOPE THE BOOGEYMAN GETS YOU!
...sorry, that's the best I've got. Mike Dawson's been having a long-term effect on me.
In all seriousness, the animation isn't even very Disney-esque. It's more like something Don Bluth would come up with on an off day. I'm sure I don't have to remind you that this company also created...
(http://boourns.dynu.net/pics/ZeldaCD-I.gif)
...that.
Quote from: stika on April 23, 2013, 05:42:58 AM
The what now?
The whirlpool that Rosella and Valanice swirl around in. Except it's not underwater because Valanice can call Rosella's name loud and clear and then gawk like an idiot afterward.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that whirlpool.
wait! The animation behind KQ 7 was the same one behind the CD-I Zelda games?
Quote from: stika on April 23, 2013, 02:00:33 PM
wait! The animation behind KQ 7 was the same one behind the CD-I Zelda games?
Search your feelings. You know it to be true.
I think three or four different animation houses worked on KQ7, not just that one.
Quote from: 929572 on April 23, 2013, 02:54:46 PM
Quote from: stika on April 23, 2013, 02:00:33 PM
wait! The animation behind KQ 7 was the same one behind the CD-I Zelda games?
Search your feelings. You know it to be true.
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/2255925/epic-star-wars-nooo-o.gif)
I hate KQ7 so much.
We know that, Gra- er, Lamb.
929572 wins the thread.
Invoking CD-I Zelda Games = WIN.
Bt
Quote from: Blackthorne on April 23, 2013, 07:59:16 PM
929572 wins the thread.
Invoking CD-I Zelda Games = WIN.
Bt
The only thing better than invoking CD-I Zelda Games is doing it by means of a cleverly timed gif.
Quote from: stika on April 23, 2013, 05:42:58 AM
The what now?
Have you played KQ7? If not, don't.
Quote from: Bludshot on April 24, 2013, 12:05:31 AM
Quote from: stika on April 23, 2013, 05:42:58 AM
The what now?
Have you played KQ7? If not, don't.
Seen a let's play only.
It was... mildly amusing, but appart from the intro itself I didn't find anything particularly good (or bad) about the game) it just seemed decent.
Though again, I never played it, so I'm not the best person to judge
I can't believe how many people there are on a King's Quest related forum who think that watching a Let's Play in any way replicates the experience of actually playing the game. My mind is boggled. No wonder companies like Telltale are so popular.
Quote from: Lambonius on April 24, 2013, 07:00:41 AM
I can't believe how many people there are on a King's Quest related forum who think that watching a Let's Play in any way replicates the experience of actually playing the game. My mind is boggled. No wonder companies like Telltale are so popular.
I never said that >:(
Lamb: Yeah, we get it. You think it's the 8th Deadly Sin. Simmer down already.
Why can't we all just agree to disagree?
Why can't we just all be friends?
I just see it as evidence of a larger cultural problem, particularly in America. But that's another rant entirely. I can go into it further, if you like. ;)
I'm curious to hear it myself :P
If you must, do it another thread :P
Quote from: KatieHal on April 24, 2013, 10:56:05 AM
If you must, do it another thread :P
Tacit approval. Hahaha...you'll be sooooorrrrrrry!!
Lambonius is about to release his snarkyness on us all :mote:
Oh I already am, Lamb, I already am. :wall:
Again, I ask, "Why are you here?!"
Because he likes to discuss the finer points of adventure game culture and adventure games in general. We ARE all friends, and sometimes we disagree. Talking about disagreements is just as important and valid as talking about what you agree on - or else every discussion would be one big, boring circle of patting each other on the back.
Bt
Quote from: Lambonius on April 24, 2013, 10:15:25 AM
I just see it as evidence of a larger cultural problem, particularly in America.
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4104/5166465451_ded900eaf8_z.jpg)
Good point, bt.
Quote from: Bludshot on April 24, 2013, 01:46:11 PM
Quote from: Lambonius on April 24, 2013, 10:15:25 AM
I just see it as evidence of a larger cultural problem, particularly in America.
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4104/5166465451_ded900eaf8_z.jpg)
between mentioning the CD-I games and this image... this thread is just so full of win
Yeah, when you invoke the Dude, you're pretty much winning anything.
Bt
I'll have to go on the side of the people who like King's Quest 7. In fact, I've been meaning to play it again soon.
Is it the best King's Quest game? Not by any means. Does it have much continuity in comparison to the first six games? Not especially. Are there some damn annoying bits to deal with (looking at you, firecracker glitch)? Of coruse.
But it did try something new. It also made itself a more accessible game which, with more people getting into games on CD, meant more people trying out King's Quest and looking back through the series as a whole. I'd actually played King's Quest well before the release of 7, but had long "lost touch" with the series. KQ7 brought this back for me and without it, I wouldn't have come back to the series. It also had the appeal to the female audience by letting people control female characters.
Sure, it probably looks a bit janky now, and the voice clips don't sound as clear as they would on a game of today. But for the time, the graphics were beautiful, and even now, the soundtrack is spectacular. Maybe not on the same epic scale as King's Quest VI, but it had its own charm and there were some pieces I found particularly atmospheric. The music at Manor Tsepish in particular always brings chills to my spine and haunts me.
There were some really interesting locations to visit as well, and such a large variety, too. From being in a desert, to underneath a volcano - a beautiful woodland, and a land of the undead... So many different characters and personalities to interact with.
I can quite see why some people wouldn't approve of it as much. It's "lightened up" a well-established series with bright cartoony graphics and songs. Gone are the humorous death sequences, and numerous references to fairy tale lore. But I still don't think it's a bad game. There have certainly been worse games with the "King's Quest" moniker on. There's still a lot going for King's Quest 7 and I don't think it should be dismissed just because it's moved slightly away from the norm.
At some point in the future, I would like to see a KQ7 remade with the same VGA interface that KQ5 and 6 had. Dialogue portraits, a script that isn't badly written, less grating voice actors, protagonists you could root for, antagonists that are actually threatening, male characters that aren't boring, female characters that aren't bimbos...this applies to MoE too, by the way.
OMG Mango!! It's Mango! Hi Mango! ;D
I actually agree with both Mango and Numbers here. I like 7, but I realize that it could have been better. That would actually be a pretty cool idea to remake it!
Imagine some of the death messages we could come up with. They would have to be changed to the third-person, of course; but some of them could essentially be the same. (Getting eaten by Borasco could still display the message "Some people are SO rude!")
Seems like a lot of effort for little gain honestly. At best a VGA conversion would make it an average game instead of a poor one, but then I am also very critical of most of the series so maybe a conversion would be a perfectly solid contribution compared to some of the other games.
It's not the storyline or character development I hate as much as the graphics. I personally liked the KQ6 art style much more than the over Disney-fied ridiculousness of KQ7.
After playing some other point and clicks there are a few things I do think are big pluses
The first is that you do not need a guide, the game was built in such a way that it was meant to be played from start to finish without any trouble, there are three exceptions
1) The Grain of salt
2) The Crystal of Light (maybe, It never stumped me but I always saw the solution)
3) The Bridle of the Wind (HOW THE WORLD were you supposed to guess that?)
And the second is that everything you can pick up can easily be seen.
You would think these would be obvious but you would frankly be surprised.
When it comes to King's Quest 7 just being playable from start to finish outside the story... It passes. Certainly some of the puzzles could be rather difficult and some are a little tricky today, but it certainly knew how to do it and praised you for knowing the game.