Just a random question: Without giving away any major information (read: spoilers :P) may I ask how many members the Black Cloak Society has?
More than one. 8)
kings quest six gives a little more info if you revisit that game
Quote from: Yonkey on April 09, 2006, 05:24:49 PM
More than one. 8)
Really? It's so not obvious! I had no idea you could pull off such a spoiler, Yonkey! Congrats! :suffer:
At least 4 members :P
Manannan, Cedric, Mordack, Chuck Norris, Alhazred, Neil Rodrigues, Shadrack
Michael, you forgot, Neil IS in the BCS! Oh wait...I wasn't supposed to say that ;]
Quote from: TribeHasSpoken on April 09, 2006, 09:33:28 PM
Manannan, Cedric, Mordack, Chuck Norris, Alhazred, Neil Rodrigues, Shadrack
Chuck Norris!? I could tell you a thing or two bout Ol' Chuck...Cedric!! No way...My heroes all in one society :P
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on April 09, 2006, 09:51:46 PM
Quote from: TribeHasSpoken on April 09, 2006, 09:33:28 PM
Manannan, Cedric, Mordack, Chuck Norris, Alhazred, Neil Rodrigues, Shadrack
Chuck Norris!? I could tell you a thing or two bout Ol' Chuck...Cedric!! No way...My heroes all in one society :P
Neil's also one of your heroes? :P
Aren't I everyone's? XD
;P
Quote from: Yonkey on April 10, 2006, 06:05:11 AM
Aren't I everyone's? XD
;P
Of course. ::) :P
You're also ruler of the universe and you plan on dminating the world with the Suffer smily's goodness :P
And I'm his little assistant that he pays absolutely no attention to whatsoever! :suffer:
I think cedric fits in the Black Cloak Society as he is so annoying, as is Alhazred, I have no idea of anything about Shadrack, Mannanan is just plain weird, and Mordack, well, his laugh is so annoying! Chuck Norris, who is he, anyway? And the Neil guy... Well, he's annoying to the sense he won't give any good spoilers to any of us! (He gave one about keyboard shortcuts!) So, on the whole, the BCS is one very annoying group, as Neil and Cedric as the main coordinators of the entire scheme! And Yonkey, please don't make us :suffer: too much! I've had too much suffering for one generation!
Just wondering, so far there has been speculation that nearly all the KQ villains were part of the BCS. That includes Lolotte, Hagatha, and Malicia.
However the ones we know for sure were Mordack, Alhazred, and Shadrack. Where do we know for sure that Manannan was part of the BSC? Or is that also speculation?
Unless it's mentioned in the KQ companion. Maybe Mannanan thought Mordack belonged to a kiddie school chess club and no part of it.
Where do you think he was always running off to in KQ3? :P
Quote from: Jafar on April 09, 2006, 06:00:34 PM
At least 4 members :P
Lets just keep it at that until the game's released, alright? :yes:
Quote from: DarkTerror on April 16, 2006, 12:05:55 AM
Just wondering, so far there has been speculation that nearly all the KQ villains were part of the BCS. That includes Lolotte, Hagatha, and Malicia.
However the ones we know for sure were Mordack, Alhazred, and Shadrack. Where do we know for sure that Manannan was part of the BSC? Or is that also speculation?
Unless it's mentioned in the KQ companion. Maybe Mannanan thought Mordack belonged to a kiddie school chess club and no part of it.
I haven't read the companion, but nowhere in the games is it stated explicitly that Manannan is a member. We assume he though, since we know his brother is, plus he wears a black cloak. Sure, it's only circumstancial evidence, but that's more than we have on Malicia or Lolotte ;P
It's still enough evidence either way. I've always though that the three of them were Black Cloak members.
The companion never states that Manannan is a black cloak member as far as I know. However that never rules out the possibility that he could be a member, seeing as his brother is a member and all.
Seeing as how Black Cloak was largely Jane Jensen's concept (and not something Roberta discussed in length), we would probably have to ask her how deep into King's Quest Lore she intended the Black Cloak society to be involved.
As it is it seems as if the Black Cloak Society possibly wouldn't have ever shown up in later official KQ games(if they had been made) as Roberta never thought much about the idea, and didn't even know the society was included in KQ6(at least not by the name of "Society of the Black Cloak"). She only partially thought about the idea.
Quote"The "Black Cloak Society" was never an actual term that I instigated or thought up. I'm not actually sure where that came from. The closest thought that I have on that subject is that: when I was working with Jane Jensen on King's Quest 6, and we thought up the evil vizier, we talked loosely about the possibility of putting Mannanan, Mordack, and the vizier together as group -- possibly -- in a future King's Quest. There was loose reference to the possibility in King's Quest 6, although nothing was set in stone at that time. I think that it's possible that Jane Jensen might have mentioned the possibility (perhaps) in subsequent interviews on the subject, although, I'm not sure about that. Later on, I heard about the Black Cloak Society and kind of wondered where that phrase came from, but, I never refuted it as I thought it was kind of cool and, probably, would have gone on with the idea in future King's Quests had I had the chance. And, one final thing: Hagatha was never part in any discussion of a Black Cloak Society.
- Roberta Williams at SierraGamers (6-9-2003)
Retrieved from "http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/The_Black_Cloak_Society"
QuoteI asked Roberta [...], and sorry to admit that she said she didn't remember the Black Cloak Society. It sounds cool. Perhaps she should have taken it more seriously and featured it in other games...quote]
- Ken Williams at SierraGamers (6-9-2003)
In the companion it says Hagatha is Mordack's sister and she's a member of the BCS aswell.
Quote"In the companion it says Hagatha is Mordack's sister and she's a member of the BCS aswell."
No, only the KQ5 chapter says Hagatha is Mordack's and Manannan's sister(a fact later put into the King's Questions trivia program). The trivia is unrelated to info about the Black Cloak Society. The book never says she is part of the Black Cloak Society. It never states Manannan is part of the black cloak either.
The Hagatha fact is mentioned only in KQ5 chapter of the book which was written long before KQ6 was even in production(It was published in the 2nd edition of the companion). At that time the idea for the Black Cloak didn't even exist.
The only refrence to the Black Cloak in the book shows up in the 3rd edition when KQ6 chapters were added to the book, and the only black cloak refrence that exists in the companion is in refrence to the letters between Shadrack and Abdul, the same letters you can hear/find in the game. As well as the refrence to the black cloak in Abdul's office, that can be seen through the peep hole(said to be of dire signifigance).
The black cloaks in Abdul's wardrobe aren't even mentioned in the companion, but rather it just discusses the "silken robes", "unclean hose", and "strong perfumes" that Abdul keeps in the wardrobe.
The letters that mention the black cloak, are somewhat different(a bit longer and more detailed) then how they ended up in the game. However just like in the game there is no refrence to Hagatha, or Manannan. Only Mordack is mentioned in the letters.
Some interesting details that the extended versions of the letters hint at, is that Shadrack's has "peculiar interests", implying that he would have used her body for lecherous purposes, alive or dead, and further clues on what the black cloak's ultimate plans for the kingdom was(ultimate destruction).
QuoteWell, if Roberta had more control over moe, maybe it might not have been the disaster it is. I would like to see a remake of moe, with a story to it. Somebody should remake moe as a true adventure game.
As for more actual facts surrounding what screwed up MOE?
QuoteYes, this was the only KQ game that was not fully developed at one location. The idea was to leverage the 3D engine Dynamic was building in Eugene. We were to use their engine and focus mostly on content. The problem was that the engine work ended up WAY behind schedule and that had disastrous results on our content development. To make a long story short, we finally took what they had and finished it ourselves. Unfortunately, by the time we did this the project was way behind schedule, way over budget, and we still didn't have an engine. We scrambled to complete the project and it unfortunately showed. It saddens me to have had the King's Quest series end with a product that suffered so.
So yes, many things were cut - the leprechaun, the Red Capped goblin, I think two complete levels, and then MANY major cutbacks on what is there. As you point out, a good example is the Swamp Witch. In the original script as it was developing, her part was much larger. But as we had to devote time to technical issues, the esthetic issues and the amount of detail and breadth of content continued to get chopped. Remember, this was also right at the time the industry was saying that "Adventure gaming is dead." It was not easy to convince marketing to invest more to develop an adventure game. The end result was that we shipped what we could, and it was a pretty sad showing for such a great series.
-Mark Seibert, March 11, 2006.
I feel too much of this thread is deviating from the topic of the Black Cloak Society and instead discussing other aspects of the KQ universe. I'll leave the thread along for the moment, but if it continues I'll either move the posts into a new thread or merge them into a more appropriate existing thread.
EDIT: 250TH POST!!!!!
They should redo the MoE game with the original story intact, and say the original MoE was either an alternate reality, or plain fan-fiction!
But back on Topic!
Does the Black Cloak Society have any new members besides the ones we know/suspect to be in it? (Cedric excluded! We all know he's in it secretly, so there is no reason to say so!) Also, does Crispin make an appearance, and if so, does he have any significance to the storyline, or is he just a side character?
Quote from: dark-daventry on April 24, 2006, 11:51:56 AMDoes the Black Cloak Society have any new members besides the ones we know/suspect to be in it?
I'm sure Shadrack will be one of the members - if not the chief one! :evil: :)
I wonder if the various witches throught the games have belonged to the black cloak society, or if it is just the wizards. If the witches for some reason werent allowed to join, one would assume they had their own society, but I think it would be interesting if every villan invloved in the games belonged to the BCS.
Hagatha didn't, and I don't think Dahlia, or the witch in the dark forest did.
According to Roberta there was no connection to the Black Cloak between any of the characters from previous games. Infact she really didn't have any ideas for a so called "Black Cloak Society".
The idea of "Society of the Black Cloak" was purely something Jane Jenson came up with. Jane Jenson wasn't involved with any of the earliest games.
I know. But we can deduce (from Jane Jenson) that Manannan, Mordack, Abdul and Shadrack were in it.
Well its definite with Mordack, Shadrack, and Alhazred.
Manannan is an unknown, and he has never explicitely been stated to be connected to the black cloak society by any official source. Though he is connected to Mordack by being his brother.
Hagatha has a connection to Mordack and Alhazred(though not by Roberta herself) as their sister in official material. But there is no explicit evidence she is also connected to the Black Cloak society either by any of the programmers or writers that connected her to brothers.
In my fanfiction, all of the villains in the KQ games are involved in the Black Cloak Society. Shadrack is the leader of the BCS. Please read my stories.
But if you think about it, how many members are left? Ok, Mordack was evaporated, Mannannan is a cat, Alhazred is in prison, and then theres Shadrack. The team also said that they would keep to the original story line. So they can't include members into the black cloak society for example THE FATHER! Unless Shadrack is the Father. Personally, I believe that Mordack will stay dead, Hagatha will return to take Valinice, Mannannan will return to human form but with cat eyes to make him super scary, Alhazred will get out of the slammer. So a final conclusion; Villans will likely be Shadrack, Alhazred, Mannannan and Hagatha. Thats it.
Quote from: lil_saintmc on February 23, 2007, 04:22:02 AM
But if you think about it, how many members are left? Ok, Mordack was evaporated, Mannannan is a cat, Alhazred is in prison, and then theres Shadrack. The team also said that they would keep to the original story line. So they can't include members into the black cloak society for example THE FATHER! Unless Shadrack is the Father. Personally, I believe that Mordack will stay dead, Hagatha will return to take Valinice, Mannannan will return to human form but with cat eyes to make him super scary, Alhazred will get out of the slammer. So a final conclusion; Villans will likely be Shadrack, Alhazred, Mannannan and Hagatha. Thats it.
I doubt The Father will have anything to do with KQIX, as he is a non canon character (but still cool).
I think you're right.....but I hope Mannannan is still a cat so we can kick his scary butt around :sneaky:
Scary butt? Did you have a traumatic experience with a cat and its...erm...rear end when you were a child? ;D
No, I was referring to Mannannan being scary, as a man...So you can take advantage of him being a cat and kicking him...Not that I'd ever kick a REAL cat...I love kitties, I have one :P
Even as cat I don't know that I would want to fight Manannan (personally, anyway, I have no problems with making the character do it ;D). Their claws really hurt sometimes. :P
Sometimes even my own cat is a meanie :P
Huzzah! I'm no longer a slave!
Y'know, who says Shadrack is the only new villian, hm? ;)
Quote from: Nilan on April 02, 2007, 05:19:40 PM
Y'know, who says Shadrack is the only new villian, hm? ;)
Good point. After all, one of the songs is called "Nightmary's Theme (http://www.postudios.com/archivedTSL/media/music/Unofficial_KQ9-NightMary%27s_Theme.mp3)", so is Nightmary a good character or bad?
QuoteAs her name explains it, she's quite "a dark lady" into what her structure is in the game ;D
(Quote from Say in this thread (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=403.0))
Point of note that The Father was, Morgeilen, brother of Legenimor (first king of Daventry), not Shadrack :), in the unofficial KQ2 remake.
Although you have to find some imbedded information in the game to discover that fact.
However, Shadrack could be Morgeilen's wizard name, like the Unspeakable Name being the wizard name of Tom Riddle.
Shade would then be Shadrack's other nickname, much like how Jollo refers to Alexander as just Alex.
Quote from: DarkTerror on April 16, 2006, 12:05:55 AM
Just wondering, so far there has been speculation that nearly all the KQ villains were part of the BCS. That includes Lolotte, Malicia.
I would just like to point out that according to the timeline Lolotte is dead and that at the end of KGVII, Malicia was turned into a baby. And if indeed this game takes place only 2 years or so after both KQVII and MoE that would make her about 2 or 3, so it really wouldn't make since that she would be involved. Don't really know about Hagatha, we'll have to see.
-Lessa
Of course, Malicia could have been a member before she was turned into an infant by Rosella at the end of VII. I guess we'll never really know, unless IX introduces some new information on old villains.
I think she was a member of the BCS, but I doubt she'll be of much harm to us now. :P I'm willing to bet we'll get a LOT of information on old villains. Do any of the other crazy fangirls/boys (Or a team member, I guess, whoever gets here first XD) remember how many pages the script is? It's...a lot. :P
EDIT: AHA! The script is about 1500 pages (Thank you, Cesar. XD)
On a different note, someone needs to make the chat logs easier to find. I only accidentally looked on the chat page. :P Yes, it makes sense, but that doesn't mean anyone can find them! :P
1500-2000 are the figures I remember...
...BUT... I doubt that Malicia was a member of BCS... the only members confirmed by creator comment or the games themselves are Manannan, Mordack, Alhazred, and Shadrack. (http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Black_Cloak_Society)
To me, it always seemed that something of a pattern was forming: both of Rosella's villains had been evil fairies and both of Alexander's villains had been members of the BCS. On top of that, Graham's enemy in KQ5 was also a member of BCS...
So, maybe if KQ hadn't changed directions with MOE, we would have seen a KQ 8 with Graham and Alexander going up against Shadrack...
Note: ...when I had "KQ 8" (without the space) above... it was altered to MoE :( How am I to discuss hypothetical KQ 8's if I must exist in the shadow of MoE? :'( ... a shadow so powerful to have in fact been bestowed a prejudicial filter :(
Hypothetical ideal 8th games in the KQ series could be referred to as a "good sequel, unlike MoE." :P
And you must admit, the filter does much more good than harm. XP
And, to me, Malicia seemed like too much of a diva to be working alone. I mean, what's the fun of doing evil if the only person who admires you for it is your "adorable" dog? :P To me, it seems she'd want a support club behind her. :P Well, as supportive as you can get from a group of complete and total meaniehs.
Well one word of note, at least in the official games, Manannan was never confirmed to be part of the Black Cloak Society. He's never mentioned in the same discussions that mention the society.
In those discussions only three were ever specifically tied together as a group.
Although since he is a brother of a black cloak member, I can see where some of the fan teams such KQ2 remake, and TSL might make that connection.
Quote
"So, maybe if KQ hadn't changed directions with MOE, we would have seen a KQ 8 with Graham and Alexander going up against Shadrack..."
Probably not, Shadrack was a Jane Jensenism, and had very little input from Roberta (not enough that Roberta remembered much of that information).
So unless Jane had a chance to return to the series (which was apparently unlikely with her own game successes), Shadrack would have still vanished into obscurity, unless a new official game designer went back through the games and was paying attention.