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The Royal Archives => General => The Silver Age => Adventure Gaming => Topic started by: dark-daventry on April 22, 2006, 08:59:08 AM

Title: MoE
Post by: dark-daventry on April 22, 2006, 08:59:08 AM
Who knows... It is sad, though, because we never got to really see what Roberta's take on King's Quest IX would be. We don't know her story, but had she had the chance, I'm sure it would be as equal as this game! And this game could replace my favorite game, KQ6! We'll see... And who knows, maybe Roberta will make a new KQ in the end, which would be a dream come true!  :)
Title: MoE
Post by: Rosedragon on April 22, 2006, 03:12:50 PM
Well, if Roberta had more control over moe, maybe it might not have been the disaster it is.  I would like to see a remake of moe, with a story to it.  Somebody should remake moe as a true adventure game.
Title: MoE
Post by: Deloria on April 23, 2006, 01:28:24 AM
The hacking and slashing  and the fact that Sierra games were supposed to be non-violent, the lack of puzzles, the lack of complete storyline...ect. It was boring.
Title: MoE
Post by: Baggins on April 23, 2006, 07:57:19 AM
Oh, I don't know there was some violence in KQ6, ;). More of the Princess Bride swashbuckling variety, but still. Even Casimma got in on the action stabbing Abdul in the shoulder. which is pretty violent.

However, I agree, turning King's Quest into Diablo was not the best course of action. It was far more violent than any previous King's Quest game, even if you chose to take the violent path to solving puzzles in previous games. Plus, it lacked any humor or fun death scenes...

Plus every inventory puzzle turned out to be pretty much variations of the same puzzle. Find 3 items so you can get an upgrade to your stats (Essence of Sun Tzu, Permenant Spell of Might, etc), use rope and hook to climb various obstacles,  jump across pillars while avoiding traps,  find a weapon to use its special ability to get to the next area, push an object, use a reveal potion to find secrets, rock puzzles, etc, etc.

Maybe if the designers could have kept the original ideas(more puzzle variation, more NPCs to interact with, enemies that has personalities, and could be outwitted through logic, rather than just wacked to death), the game would have been neat combination of both adventure and action elements. Maybe closer to a 3-d Quest for Glory (a series that felt like a more advanced version of King's Quest, with its fantasy motifs, and humor).

Plus apparently a zone by the ocean, with a forest was lost as well.

Its a shame that the lost material from the game can't be obtained(alpha/beta builds), and an unofficial "special edition" made, or at least recreated from what we do know about the missing material. But as we know Sierra probably wouldn't agree to it, even if a team like AGD was to make it...

Come to think of it, I wonder if it could be remade in the Dark Engine perhaps, ;), have more interesting use for ropes, and altogether better graphics for a dated engine, heh. Maybe add the ability to sneak up on the enemies to knock them out, rather than out and out killing them ;).

Does anyone know if any of unfinished material is still on the disk perhaps, maybe still in the code?
Title: MoE
Post by: Deloria on April 23, 2006, 08:11:31 AM
Oh, I don't know there was some violence in KQ6, ;). More of the Princess Bride swashbuckling variety, but still. Even Casimma got in on the action stabbing Abdul in the shoulder. which is pretty violent.
Not half so violent as killing hundreds of undead soldiers/things/plants ect. That was not a KQ, KQ stands for King's Quest, now I agree that it could be argued that only 1,2,5,6 were KQ's. But still, KQ8 was a waste of time, money, and a good mood! :P
Title: MoE
Post by: racx_00 on April 23, 2006, 08:24:45 AM
Those poor chickens!! :(

*remembers killing them over and over* :P
Title: MoE
Post by: Baggins on April 23, 2006, 08:26:39 AM
Well if you really want to be technical about the title of the series...

Let me break it down heh...

KQ1, Graham is not a King, but he is trying to become a King. The quest is given to you by a King. Graham becomes a king at the end of the game. There is even some debate on if Graham was actually of noble blood, or at least he wasn't taught in all the social graces and manners of being a noble (unlike his future wife, and most of the other lords/ladies in the kingdom). If he wasn't of noble blood the implication is that he got his knighthood through the deeds of his father, "Hereward", and had proven himself through further deeds of his own.

KQ2, Graham is a king, and is trying to find a queen.

KQ3, well Gwydion is not king, and well as far as you know from the beginning you are playing some peasant slave. At least he turns out to be part of the royal family, however a prince does not equal a king. Peasant's Quest, Slave's Quest, or Prince's Quest would probably be more accurate, ;).

KQ4, not a king, Princess Rosella is trying to save the king though. A princess does not equal a king, :). At least it was a member of the royal family of daventry. Though Princess Quest probably would have been a more accurate title, ;).

KQ5, well Graham is the king, so it is a King's Quest.

KQ6, well Alexander is only a prince, and not a king. However while it wasn't his plan he does become a king by the end of the game... So technically fits the title of King's Quest.

KQ7, well a princess and a queen aren't kings. Nor do they become kings. They do get to meet the king of Eldrtich, and a king of the trolls though heh heh. It might have been more accurately called "Royal Quest", lol.

MoE, you play as a peasant who wants to save the king, infact its one of the main things on his mind. He doesn't want to become a king. King Graham appears happy to be saved according to the final ending(even if it wasn't much of an ending). You know its probably better he was a peasant, rather than the statue in the castle that came to life which was one of the earliest plans for the story... Probably more accurately called, Peasant's Quest II, ;).
Title: MoE
Post by: Deloria on April 23, 2006, 08:31:01 AM
But that's what I said above ::)
Title: MoE
Post by: Baggins on April 23, 2006, 08:35:24 AM
Heh Heh, I know, I just thought I'd expand on it.  8)

You know it seems Alexander is more violent than his father.

Alexander had to "kill" undead guards in "The Floating Castle" through his sword fighting skills. He also gets into a sword fight with Abdul. He kills a spider, and kills a dragon. If you want to count it he also kills Medusa(though it can be argued medusa killed herself).

The creators of the unofficial King's Quest ZZT series had Alexander learning more D&D style magic as well as weapons found throughout the adventures, to kill the evil forces in those games(including Manannan's evil cousin Ravenlos)...

Graham is usually able to work his way through problems without resorting to much violence.

The Wizard's duel being one of the only exceptions, but then again he was using purely defensive magic for the most part, while Mordack was using the spells that were designed to kill). I suppose throwing the pie at the yeti causing it to fall over the cliff was pretty violent too. Of, course killing Dahlia while her back was turned was also pretty violent and unsporting. One can argue that graham used the goat to kill the troll, even if it was the goat that killed the troll.
Title: MoE
Post by: Rosella on April 23, 2006, 08:42:26 AM
Well, for KQ4, it's a quest for a king, so I think King's Quest fits.
Title: MoE
Post by: Baggins on April 23, 2006, 08:46:26 AM
Well, by that logic, Mask of Eternity is a quest for a king too, to turn him back to flesh. Connor repeats how he wants to save the king 3-4 times throughout the game. So it fits too, ;).
Title: MoE
Post by: Rosella on April 23, 2006, 08:47:28 AM
Well, the point is, Connor isn't a member of the royal family, the king's family.
Title: MoE
Post by: Baggins on April 23, 2006, 08:58:45 AM
...So?

Graham wasn't part of Edward's family, and wasn't a member of the royal family, perhaps not even of noble birth. He later became king though.

In KQ3 you don't know Gwydion is part of the Royal family, unless you catch some comments by animals around llewdor, as well as what the oracle and the gnome tell you.

Did you know people who hadn't played the game, or hadn't gotten far enough in the game had sent letters to Sierra and Roberta Williams complaining to her that they weren't allowed to play the King, and that they were playing some unknown peasant? Because they viewed it that it wasn't a true "King's Quest".

In "King's Questions" you aren't part of the royal family you play as captain of the ship that ferry's the royal family from Green Isles to Daventry, ;).

Since we don't know what Roberta had intended to do with Connor, there is a possibility he may have been given knighthood, and rule over some of the land of the kingdom. Though I strongly doubt he would have tried for the affections of Princess Rosella though they may have met each other (Roberta hinted that a future game may have had them meeting each other). Plus we don't even know if we got the intended ending for the game either, :(... The story may have had a much better ending that was cut due to time constraints :(.

Also might I mention that Archons are the rulers of the Temple of the Sun, and Lucretro was the ruler of the Archons. By becoming the Champion Eternal he may have replaced Lucreto as leader of the Archons. If so wouldn't that make him somewhat a king?

Connor had been prophecied for for millenia, by the ancient race that once inhabited the underground realm of the gnomes. Not to mention that the mask had chosen and prophecied for millenia he  would be the Champion Eternal, the True Upholder, the Enlightened One, The Deliverer of the world. That makes him pretty darn epic.

From interviews it seems Roberta's intent as mentioned in a few interviews was that nobility comes not only from one's station but what is in their heart, and not everyone with noble station is actually noble.
Title: MoE
Post by: Yonkey on April 23, 2006, 09:49:08 AM
Connor had been prophecied for for millenia, by the ancient race that once inhabited the underground realm of the gnomes. Not to mention that the mask had chosen and prophecied for millenia he  would be the Champion Eternal, the True Upholder, the Enlightened One, The Deliverer of the world. That makes him pretty darn epic.
Wow! :o Reading this really makes me feel that MoE had the potential to be a really awesome game.  If it was more storyline-driven than action-driven, I think it probably would have made a really interesting game to play, in spite of Connor having no relation to the Royal Family. 
Title: MoE
Post by: Deloria on April 23, 2006, 09:55:43 AM
Well, the point is, Connor isn't a member of the royal family, the king's family.

That's irrelevant. He was still on a quest for the king (ie King's Quest :P).

As for peasnat's quest II, instead of Rather Dashing we now get Rather Slashing, or what? :P
Title: MoE
Post by: Baggins on April 23, 2006, 09:56:54 AM
Ya the original intent was for the game was to be story driven with action only punctuating portions of the story, :(....

But what we got only hints at what the story would have been, through few NPC conversations you get to hear, and the crystal pyramids you watch in the Underground Realm of the Gnomes :(.

You know the refrence to the "witch's wiles" as mentioned if you click on the skeleton's in the swamp witch's castle? Well that was in refrence to her extended plot. She would have convinced you to enter her castle in the form of beautiful maiden, much as she had done with those poor victims in her dungeon. Once she got you into the castle you would have had to solve a few puzzles to thwart her before having to kill here, :(.

Now she has very little personality, and we are only told how vile she is by the Unicorn and a few other characters, :(.

Quote
As for peasnat's quest II, instead of Rather Dashing we now get Rather Slashing, or what?


LOL.
Title: MoE
Post by: Deloria on April 23, 2006, 10:04:14 AM
All we get to do is kill her while she shouts "Die!" in an annoying voice :P
Title: MoE
Post by: Baggins on April 23, 2006, 10:07:42 AM
Yes :(.
Title: MoE
Post by: Oldbushie on April 23, 2006, 10:15:36 AM
Connor is really King Graham's father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
Title: MoE
Post by: Deloria on April 23, 2006, 10:23:44 AM
Connor is really King Graham's father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
XD

I'm sure ::)
Title: MoE
Post by: Baggins on April 23, 2006, 10:24:29 AM
Lol, and I thought that might be Manannan ;).

Speaking of Manannan, in legends Manannan was the son of the god  Lyrr, and Lyrrs sons were the McLyrr. Maybe manannan is related to Connor, ;).

Well if Sir Hereward, and Sir Graham weren't born nobility, its possible that Connor could be related to him as well. Maybe connor is a distant cousin or nephew.   ;) In which case its probably best that Rosella hasn't fallen for him...

Also is anyone just a little bit curious on if Graham has any brothers or sisters? I could see a future King's Quest game where evil brother Melba, comes to try to take over the castle, thinking he should have been the heir instead of his good brother. Maybe his sister Ginger would have to show up to save him  :suffer:.

Quote
Melba: Oh, snap, Ginger is about to defeat me.

Ginger: Brother you are now toast. I will save Graham if its the last thing I do.
Title: MoE
Post by: racx_00 on April 24, 2006, 01:17:15 AM
Speaking of Manannan, in legends Manannan was the son of the god  Lyrr, and Lyrrs sons were the McLyrr. Maybe manannan is related to Connor, ;).
That's an interesting theory, would be cool if that was what they originally intended for the link between Connor and the other games.
Title: MoE
Post by: Storm on April 25, 2006, 02:21:45 PM
Sorry for going a bit off-topic again, but a MOE debate without me commenting on it? that's just wrong :o :P

Connor had been prophecied for for millenia, by the ancient race that once inhabited the underground realm of the gnomes. Not to mention that the mask had chosen and prophecied for millenia he  would be the Champion Eternal, the True Upholder, the Enlightened One, The Deliverer of the world. That makes him pretty darn epic.
Wow! :o Reading this really makes me feel that MoE had the potential to be a really awesome game.  If it was more storyline-driven than action-driven, I think it probably would have made a really interesting game to play, in spite of Connor having no relation to the Royal Family.

That may have been the case, if the whole thing wasn't so darn stupid :-\
Tossing around lines like "Champion Eternal", "True  Upholder", "Enlightened One", "The Deliverer", "prophecied of old", "the mask itself had chosen you", etc., etc. ad nauseum isn't an epic-make. The whole plot would have to get a major overhaul to bring it up to anything resembling adventure-game quality... you can't have a storyline-driven game without a proper storyline ::)


Mask of Eternity is a quest for a king too, to turn him back to flesh. Connor repeats how he wants to save the king 3-4 times throughout the game. So it fits too, ;).

That's a really big stretch, since it wasn't about saving the king specifically. Connor says things like "alas, poor what's-his-name... I knew him well" and "I shall free you from this wretched curse" to just about any rock he encounters :P
Title: MoE
Post by: Oldbushie on April 25, 2006, 04:08:26 PM
Have you seen what Connor *really* does to those poor rock-frozen people? ;)

I'm pretty sure he mocks them when you're not looking.
Title: MoE
Post by: Baggins on April 26, 2006, 08:51:11 AM
"storyline-driven game without a proper storyline"

Sorry but I won't get into a debate on differences of opinion over something this trivial. Argueing opinion for trivial things is like trying bang ones head into a railroad spike over and over again. You aren't going to convince me to agree with you, and I am not going to try to convince you to change your opinions. I may not think MOE has the best story of the series, but what there was I still enjoyed. If you didn't like the story fine.

Unfortunately we never got the entire story as it was originally intended, but only hints at what it could have been, as practically everything that would have made it more like a traditional adventure game story was either never completed or cut thanks to Dynamix screwing up the game's engine, forcing Sierra to finish the engine themselves. Because of that they didn't have time to finish most portions of the game and were forced to release the story butchered, due to a strict deadline for the release date made by company that owned Sierra at the time.

Maybe things would have been different if Ken Williams hadn't sold Sierra out. But its too late to worry about that, and the change seemed to have affected most of the sierra adventure games at the time. Several games from classic sierra adventure game series were cancelled, and those that were released were not as good compared to previous games in the series. There was something really wrong when Sierra started making more clones of other companies games, instead having original ideas...