Is there any chance at all that when this game is finished in full that Vivendi could actually see fit to make it an official sequel? This would be a great addition to the King's Quest Compilation that they're releasing.
That's a good question. Myself, along with the team would love for that to happen! XD It was actually one of our hopes during the whole VU negotiations. In any case, that decision lies with Vivendi and not us. 8)
Well, Yonkey, in the discussions with Vivendi, what did their perspective on this seem to be? Did they seem at all interested in making an official sequel, did they see any profitability in it at all?
Sorry, we're not permitted to reveal those kind of details about the negotiations.
But their public actions speak for itself: they wanted us to remove "King's Quest IX" from the title, and they offered us a non-commercial license.
I think the possibilities are good but I doubt that ball will get rolling until after POS releases their first part and V finally releases the KQ Compilation they’ve been talking about for over a year. If the reaction is good and enough people buy the Compilation then I’m sure there will be a KQIX.
So if you want any possibility if a IX then try to get everyone you know, and many you don’t, to download TSL and but the Compilation.
I also would not be surprised if V stalls the TSL’s release until their compilation is ready to keep the hype up.
Quote from: Yonkey on July 05, 2006, 06:01:51 AM
Sorry, we're not permitted to reveal those kind of details about the negotiations.
But their public actions speak for itself: they wanted us to remove "King's Quest IX" from the title, and they offered us a non-commercial license.
Hmm. Interesting. Well, if they do want to make their own, please inform them on behalf of the fans that we do not want another MOE or LSL: MCL king's quest style! :P
LMAO! :suffer: We don't really have any say in their creative process, assuming they eventually make a KQIX. But since they must know our vision and purpose for TSL by now, I'm sure they've figured that out already. :P
I bet they would make the game official if we made a commotion on the web about it. Or the TSL and the KQ fans could be on there hands and knees and plead to vinvedia. :suffer:
In all honesty I would think VU's life would be easier if they made a KQX than a KQIX if they make one after this. Though not official in law, without a VU release TSL will become so in the minds of the fans despite the law and I see no reason to compete against it. People would be forever comparing its plot to TSl's, possibly not favorably and why have that competition if the deletion of a letter in the titale will eliminate it. Of course if they make another one they would have to either take this or shut it down, it would be hard to sell a game if the competition was free.
True, and it's hardly as though they haven't skipped sequels before.
Since Vivendi has taken so long to release the compilation, one has to wonder if they're not waiting to include TSL as an "extra" on the disk. I would love to think that this would give our fabulous friends at Phoenix a chance to renegotiate their fan status. It's really hard to believe that there isn't some evil coincidence in the fact that the release of TSL has been delayed (for copyright/legal issues) and then the release of the compilation CD has also been delayed. Seriously, it's a compilation - how much work do they need to put into creating a CD or two???
The more I think about it, the more likely this is the reason why the compilations keep getting delayed. :P However, I find it a bit odd that VU would base the release date of their products (including unrelated non-KQ compilations) on our game. As well, it's strange how in all our negotiations, they never mentioned anything about the compilations or any intentions to bundle our product with them. ::)
From a production standpoint, you're right. There's not much extra cost in adding an extra CD or DVD to the box and bumping up the price accordingly, however the compilations lacked box art and marketing even prior to our C&D. :-\ One could say they may be planning on adding art from our game to the cover... but again, that doesn't explain why all the other compilations are delayed as well. :P
To get back on-topic, I can't really see VU developing an official sequel with our game being a direct competitor. We're not a threat financially, but it's obvious that people will be comparing our work to theirs, so it makes the most sense for them to not make an official KQIX until after TSL has been completed. I would actually make the most sense for them to just turn our game into the official 9th one, but like us, they're probably waiting to see how well Shadows does first. 8)
Quote from: Yonkey on July 22, 2006, 09:13:32 PM
To get back on-topic, I can't really see VU developing an official sequel with our game being a direct competitor. We're not a threat financially, but it's obvious that people will be comparing our work to theirs, so it makes the most sense for them to not make an official KQIX until after TSL has been completed. I would actually make the most sense for them to just turn our game into the official 9th one, but like us, they're probably waiting to see how well Shadows does first. 8)
And most likely, unless they had a team that was really in touch with the soul of the King's Quest series, the comparison would be bad on their end and people would end up acceping TSL anyway. I mean, look at Leisure Suit Larry: MCL. Like MOE, it's a good game on it's own merit, but they tried to make it like Leisure Suit Larry for a new generation...But the fans of LSL didn't want that. They wanted a cap off of Larry Laffer's story. I mean, yes it sold well, but in this day and age any game that has boobs and naked women will sell well :-\
Aye, as I think I said before, I see no good reason for VU to compete with TSL for the title KQIX. Assuming TSL is any good, and all indications are that it will be, people will be forever comparing VU's KQIX to POS's TSL, and that can only be bad for VU's KQIX. Obviously they have the legal rights to make whatever "official" changes to the storyline they want but "official" storyline is useless, what matters is what the fans think. If taking a number out of the title and giving the creative staff a differant starting point can get rid of that, it seems wise to me. And of course, if they make a KQX they have to make TSL the "official" KQIX. Of course, I am no professional, so I could be wrong. :)
Quoteunless they had a team that was really in touch with the soul of the King's Quest series, the comparison would be bad on their end and people would end up accepting TSL anyway
If VU attempts to use the KQ series again I can see two basic paths. You can either go to please the oldtime fans, or "remake" KQ into a game that will be popular now.
After MOE I'm not sure plan 2 is a good idea, King's Quest frankly means little or nothing to most gamers today and if you can make popular game from scratch why tie yourself down dealing with continuity from previous games most of the gaming public knows nothing about anyway? Might as well start from square one if you have no plans to ride on the coattails of previous games by selling to fans.
Plan 1 depends on how many KQ fans there are. The really hardcore ones are not enough to make a game really practical, I suspect. I've done no market research though, so it is just a hunch really. TSL will be good market research in way, but people who download a free game may not be interested in paying $50 for one. I assume VU has the right to shut down TSL or add it to their commercial offerings so it would not compete directly with a KQX, but it might or might not fly as a paying enterprise.
Quote from: Petra Rocks on July 22, 2006, 09:53:07 PM
Aye, as I think I said before, I see no good reason for VU to compete with TSL for the title KQIX. Assuming TSL is any good, and all indications are that it will be, people will be forever comparing VU's KQIX to POS's TSL, and that can only be bad for VU's KQIX.
Any fan who finds out about TSL will recognize it as a KQ game Official or not. How good TSL is will dictate the fan’s backing. If TSL is good, as I think it will be, and
if VU was to make another KQ game then it will be very hard for VU to compete against it without alienate their customers/fans. They could just ignore it and thus unofficial accept it but since they have
unprecedentedly given out a fan license and now have control of the game they can make sure it stays true to the story as they see it and make sure it doesn’t conflict with any future game they may be planning.
Quote from: Petra Rocks on July 22, 2006, 09:53:07 PM
Plan 1 depends on how many KQ fans there are. The really hardcore ones are not enough to make a game really practical, I suspect. I've done no market research though, so it is just a hunch really. TSL will be good market research in way, but people who download a free game may not be interested in paying $50 for one.
I agree with Petra. As to the compilation those are tough sells. Companies don’t want to spend a lot of money producing compilations because there is little return on it. Usually only those who have played one of the game would be interested in purchasing and that’s always a small fraction of the original fan base and this fan base, for the most part, is an older crowd which doesn’t have the time to play games much anymore so their meager percentage just went down
A Lot. Yes we do have a lot of young support here (most of which saw their parents play or were encouraged by their parents to play.) but I doubt there would be a lot of young people whom never playing any of the games would buy it, not enough eye candy. I’m one of the rare one that bought the first KQ compilation without ever playing one of the games and then I purchased VII on discount and even then didn’t start playing it until seven (?) years later, which was a few months ago. I can get them all to work fin in DosBox so would I buy the compilation? Probably not. On that point how many non fans would buy a game that doesn’t work in XP? Not many. Which mean the VU has to spend money to reengineer not one but eight games to work in XP for a fan base that’s very minute and little chance of new fans purchasing it. With this in mind there is a big chance of losing money rather the making money.
Quote from: Valanice on July 22, 2006, 08:40:21 PM
Since Vivendi has taken so long to release the compilation, one has to wonder if they're not waiting to include TSL as an "extra" on the disk.
I serious doubt that VU would include TSL in a compilation. The cost of creating a manual, burning a disk (or two), creating and printing a label(s) as well would cost way too much money for little if any return. That would also mean taking it completely away from POS and they still have 2/3 of the game to complete and that’s going to take a few years.
However, as mention in another presently ongoing thread, MOE was intended as a passing of the torch to the next central figure in the game. If VU were to spend money then they should just put it toward a new game in the KQ world with the same feel and see what new fan base they can create.
Quote from: Shades2585 on July 23, 2006, 07:30:12 AM
they have unprecedentedly given out a fan license
Actually, they have given fan games permission before, but I believe they were given them after their games were already released, rather than prior. Because they've given us one while the game is still being developed, it impacts us quite a bit more than the others.
Quote from: Shades2585 on July 23, 2006, 07:30:12 AM
I serious doubt that VU would include TSL in a compilation. The cost of creating a manual, burning a disk (or two), creating and printing a label(s) as well would cost way too much money for little if any return.
Based on the lack of marketing materials, I would guess they would just include our game as an extra burned CD/DVD, and not even bother with expensive labelling. If they increased the cost of the KQ compilations by a dollar or two, that would easily cover these additional costs.
Quote from: Shades2585 on July 23, 2006, 07:30:12 AM
That would also mean taking it completely away from POS and they still have 2/3 of the game to complete and that’s going to take a few years.
Yeah, that's the main reason why I don't think they'll include our game, but considering they now own part of Shadows, I can't rule that game being snuck into the box. :P While it may not be ethical for them to make money off a game intended to be non-commercial, at this point in time, it is still a possiblity (unfortunately).
But to tell you the truth, I wouldn't mind that much if they were included with the KQ Compilations. It would give dial-up users another means of playing our game, and we're still going to have the free downloadable version as well. Besides, it would be an honour to even be considered with the official games in the series, even though legally we're not. XD
Quote from: Shades2585 on July 23, 2006, 07:30:12 AM
If VU were to spend money then they should just put it toward a new game in the KQ world with the same feel and see what new fan base they can create.
I agree completely. Given today's market, technology, trends and so forth, it would make most sense for them to make an entirely new KQ game, than label it as a sequel. Obviously, our reasons for creating TSL are because the last sequel just didn't cut it. :P But, if VU is intending on creating an official KQ game at some point, their best financial bet would be to start fresh and sever any ties to KQ other than the title and maybe a couple characters. Note, that I'm
not suggesting a MoE 2, lol. I think both Vivendi and KQ fans alike know that would be a complete waste of time and money. 8)
QuoteYeah, that's the main reason why I don't think they'll include our game, but considering they now own part of Shadows
But the part they own, is just the demo. :P And I'll assume that's about 25 screens and definitely not more. :P
IIRC, they sent everything that they had done in the game. So wouldn't that be a lot more?
Quote from: Yonkey on July 23, 2006, 12:46:49 PM
Actually, they have given fan games permission before, but I believe they were given them after their games were already released, rather than prior. Because they've given us one while the game is still being developed, it impacts us quite a bit more than the others.
That’s cool didn’t know that but the fact that they did give you one
before the game was finished is still amazing.
Quote from: Yonkey on July 23, 2006, 12:46:49 PM
Based on the lack of marketing materials, I would guess they would just include our game as an extra burned CD/DVD, and not even bother with expensive labelling. If they increased the cost of the KQ compilations by a dollar or two, that would easily cover these additional costs.
Bean counters don’t look at it that way. It’s still an expense and if it won’t grow the fan base they can’t justify the cost. Maybe if it were on a DVD but few games are on DVD and I’m not sure how many of our fans have one. Besides if they put out the first third of the game then that would mean that they would eventually have to sell they whole game when it comes out and I’m not sure how buyers, not knowing the KQIX/TSL history would like having only part of a game.
No label? I’ve never purchased a game that didn’t have a label.
Quote from: Yonkey on July 23, 2006, 12:46:49 PM
…considering they now own part of Shadows…
Only Shadows? I’m confused. I thought they had all of TSL what about the other two chapters?
Quote from: Yonkey on July 23, 2006, 12:46:49 PM
But to tell you the truth, I wouldn't mind that much if they were included with the KQ Compilations. It would give dial-up users another means of playing our game, and we're still going to have the free downloadable version as well. Besides, it would be an honour to even be considered with the official games in the series, even though legally we're not. XD
Yes I’m sure the dial up users would surely love it and I agree that it would be an honor if they did, not to mention that would make you officially KQIX again ;D
Quote from: Shades2585 on July 23, 2006, 06:32:57 PM
Quote from: Yonkey on July 23, 2006, 12:46:49 PM
…considering they now own part of Shadows…
Only Shadows? I’m confused. I thought they had all of TSL what about the other two chapters?
I don't think there's really much finished/programmed work on the other two chapters, since they're focusing on Shadows, atm.
I could be wrong though. XD
My guess is that if Vivendi came up with an official sequel, they would call it KQ9, not KQ10. In their mind, TSL would have the same status as the KQ novels, something like a KQ-8½, an interesting but inessential part of the story. That may not be how the fans think of it, but it is probably how Vivendi will think of it.
An official KQ9 would probably make Connor the next King of Daventry, either at the end of the game or at the beginning. They may have him marry Rosella, which would contradict the story line of TSL. They may even keep their original timeline (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=4672), with KQ-8 taking place many years after KQ7.
As for the style of play, it would probably have some first-person shooter aspects, but not as many as KQ-8, and more adventure-game aspects. At least, they should get rid of Connor's munching on mushrooms and potions.
As far as including TSL in the compilation, they could always download TSL off the Internet like anyone else, or download any other fan game that they wanted to include. POS wouldn't have to give them a copy. However, I doubt that fan games will be included in the compilation.
I see no reason why Rosella can't inherit the throne, despite the fact that she is female.
Quote from: Rosella on July 23, 2006, 06:18:57 PM
IIRC, they sent everything that they had done in the game. So wouldn't that be a lot more?
We didn't send them everything we owned. I don't think there's a FedEx truck big enough for that. :P
And their co-ownership is more a result of the "agreement" they have with us. :deal:
Quote from: Shades2585 on July 23, 2006, 06:32:57 PM
Maybe if it were on a DVD but few games are on DVD and I’m not sure how many of our fans have one.
Actually, the whole KQ series and Shadows would all be able to fit on one DVD. However, like you said, not everyone owns a computer capable of reading DVD's, so I dont know. :-\
Quote from: Shades2585 on July 23, 2006, 06:32:57 PM
Besides if they put out the first third of the game then that would mean that they would eventually have to sell they whole game when it comes out and I’m not sure how buyers, not knowing the KQIX/TSL history would like having only part of a game.
Only Shadows? I’m confused. I thought they had all of TSL what about the other two chapters?
Sorry, I can't discuss the specific details, but basically the agreement we have with them applies only towards Shadows. 8)
Quote from: Shades2585 on July 23, 2006, 06:32:57 PM
Yes I’m sure the dial up users would surely love it and I agree that it would be an honor if they did, not to mention that would make you officially KQIX again ;D
I would love it too! XD It would be nice to have something tangible to hold onto, just in case this site doesn't last forever (or dies from all the crazy bandwidth usage). ;P
Quote from: maestro on July 23, 2006, 06:45:16 PM
My guess is that if Vivendi came up with an official sequel, they would call it KQ9, not KQ10. In their mind, TSL would have the same status as the KQ novels, something like a KQ-8½, an interesting but inessential part of the story. That may not be how the fans think of it, but it is probably how Vivendi will think of it.
Normally I would agree that they would just jump to KQX, but since they specifically requested us to change our title, I'm thinking that was for a reason. "King's Quest" is their trademark, but "KQIX" or "King's Quest IX" is not. So, there must be some reason behind them not wanting us to be known officially as the 9th, even though as you said, in the eyes of fans, they will always consider us as such.
Thinking about it, if VU wanted to put TSL on this compilation, wouldn't they just say so? I see nothing they would gain by waiting.
Quotethe agreement we have with them
Pardon me if thus should be obvious or you can't say, but exactly what agreement are we talking about? Permission to release it or make it or this there another agreement of which I am not aware. ???
EDIT
QuoteI see no reason why Rosella can't inherit the throne, despite the fact that she is female.
Without going into a long lecture about Salic law and semisalic law and gavelkind and primogeniture laws and such, the majority of Western monarchies would have Alexander inherit the throne even if it meant wearing a dual crown, as you doubtless know. Holding two king titles was hardly unknown. If he could not inherit then it gets more complicated.
Quote from: Yonkey on July 23, 2006, 06:49:04 PM
. . . the agreement we have with them applies only towards Shadows.
You mean that they only gave you permission to release Shadows? So, before you can release the other two parts, you have to get separate licenses from them? That's not good.
Quote from: Deloria on July 23, 2006, 06:47:38 PM
I see no reason why Rosella can't inherit the throne, despite the fact that she is female.
It's not what you or I think that matters, it's what Vivendi thinks. I think that their original intent was to make Connor king. Of course, Daventry is based loosely on England, and England has had female monarchs, so, yes, Rosella could inherit the throne.
Quote from: Petra Rocks on July 23, 2006, 07:07:42 PM
Pardon me if thus should be obvious or you can't say, but exactly what agreement are we talking about?
It's alright, you're new. :P On November 29, 2005, Vivendi Games, Inc. granted us legal permission to continue development on our game through the means of a non-commercial license agreement. This agreement is still being negotiated, and details of which are not permitted to be discussed publicly, since it covers everything from ownership, distribution, intellectual property, etc. The only thing I can say is that the agreement is for
The Silver Lining - Part One: Shadows, which contains the first three chapters of our game.
Quote from: maestro on July 23, 2006, 07:24:21 PM
You mean that they only gave you permission to release Shadows? So, before you can release the other two parts, you have to get separate licenses from them? That's not good.
We actually won't require any seperate licenses from them. However, as I said, I cannot discuss the details of the agreement.
QuoteWithout going into a long lecture about Salic law and semisalic law and gavelkind and primogeniture laws and such, the majority of Western monarchies would have Alexander inherit the throne even if it meant wearing a dual crown, as you doubtless know. Holding two king titles was hardly unknown. If he could not inherit then it gets more complicated.
How naive of me to think he might abdicate in favor of his sister. :P
Sorry, I was aware of the non-commercial license agreement but now you people are talking about part ownership/commercial release and I wondered if some other agreement went into rather more detail than just saying "fine go make the game and don't bug us anymore" in legalese. It appears so, but I can't know about it. Oh well, it keeps the PR\legal people's lives from getting boring (or well rested either) :-\.
So if you can tell me, would a release in this compilation mean TSl would no longer we released as freeware? Or would it be a sort of freebie (meaning, the cost is hidden) on the pack that you could still download?
QuoteHow naive of me to think he might abdicate in favor of his sister.
You said
inherit not get. :P I understood that to mean get legal title on Graham's death in absence of a last will and testament. In 99.9% of historic kingdoms, she wouldn't. This isn't history, and I obviously have no idea what Daventry's succession laws are. Or Graham could leave the crown to her on his death. Or any number of things. Including a coup, but that might be taking "darker plot" a little far. :devil:
TSL will be released as freeware, it would be a freebie (like demos) in the compilation pack, should VG decide to add it.
Quote from: Deloria on July 23, 2006, 08:45:50 PM
TSL will be released as freeware, it would be a freebie (like demos) in the compilation pack, should VG decide to add it.
Deloria's correct. TSL is still intended to be 100% freeware. Shadows will be for sure, since the license is strictly for non-commercial use. I'm currently working with our lawyer and trying to ensure that Shadows doesn't get sold without our consent or compensation, since that's obviously ethically, morally and legally wrong, as it defeats the whole purpose of a
non-commercial agreement. But we'll see how that goes. :)
QuoteI see no reason why Rosella can't inherit the throne, despite the fact that she is female.
Well as someone mentioned Alexander could rule both kingdoms from afar.
There is also possibililty of Rosella becoming the Grand Duchess of Daventry and ruling it under Alexander, also not uncommon in history.
Of course Rosella could be given the crown if her father willed it, and thus become queen. Hell he could give up the crown early if he wanted to, and retire.
The King's Quest Companion KQ7 novel even hinted that Rosella and Edger would be the next rulers of Daventry as well, at least that was Graham and Valanice's plans.
As for putting it into the compilation? It would probably be cheaper for them to link to the website, rather than put the time to master the disks for the compilation. Way back when Sierra would often link to popular fan sites in some of their text files and pdf files.
Also, they may not want to put it into the compilation cause it directly connect the game to them, and people would end up calling them for tech support, which they wouldn't want, even if there was a warning that it wasn't supported by Vivendi. Even if they wouldn't accept tech support calls for it, people would still complain and blaim Vivendi if for some reason the game didnt' work properly on their systems.
On the other hand Valve and Sierra linked to a handful of Half-Life fan modifications, and even later marketed them, with further upgrades and including tech support...
Interesting thing to note, this topic has also been brought up for AGDI's KQ1 and KQ2 remakes as well. With the AGDI fans wondering if Sierra has been holding back the compilations waiting for their games to be finished so they could figure out how to include them in the compilation. Vivendi has pushed back the compilation many times. :P
As for the compilation, all material I've read on it, seems to indicate it might just be a reprint of the second edition King's Quest Anthology, with the MOE preview, but no MOE included.
As for sierra making a KQ9 themselves?
Several possiblities;
Well there is actually a couple of possibilities since MOE was never marketed as King's Quest 8, but only a King's Quest title, they could go back and make a game called King's Quest 8, and just deem MOE to be a side story in the universe.
If they took that route they could even set games that took place before MOE if they decided to follow their original timeline. There is at least a couple of decades to tell stories between the games.
...or they could set next game after MOE, create a King's Quest 9, if they decided to start using numerals again, and considered MOE to be KQ-8.
...or they could continue the MOE trend and just call it a King's Quest without the numbers. "King's Quest: ________", etc.
There also seems to be a trend in reenvisioning older series for the newer audiences, which don't always follow the style or storylines of the original.
The Bard's Tale, Sid Meier's Pirates, Alone in the Dark, and many of the older cinemare title remakes for example. So there is always a chance King's Quest could come back as something entirely different...
If there is a sequel then it will probably no longer have a roman numeral because that would imply and continuation of the old story. It will probably just be King’s Quest: “enter name hereâ€.
QuoteShadows will be (freeware) for sure...... I'm currently working with our lawyer and trying to ensure that Shadows doesn't get sold without our consent or compensation.......But we'll see how that goes.
A truly masterful answer, I now have even less idea of what is happening than I did before I asked. *breathes through mask* Obi- :suffer: has taught you well. ;D ;)
Quote from: Petra Rocks on July 23, 2006, 08:35:27 PM
Sorry, I was aware of the non-commercial license agreement but now you people are talking about part ownership/commercial release and I wondered if some other agreement went into rather more detail than just saying "fine go make the game and don't bug us anymore" in legalese. It appears so, but I can't know about it. Oh well, it keeps the PR\legal people's lives from getting boring (or well rested either) :-\.
The agreement as I understand it is that VU has discretionary control over Shadows both in release date and content so Shadows must be sent to VU for their review and POS must make any changes VU requests before VU decides to allow POS to release it and when they can.