This is a continuation of a bit of a discussion in the "how old are you" thread:
Storm: "...I don't go [out] with goyim "
oldbushie: "Hey, Jesus Christ was Jewish! So that means I have a Jewish brother, then. Does that count? ;)"
Storm: "Nope. Judaism is determined only by the mother, so you're only jewish if your mother is or if you converted. :-/
I was just kidding about not going for goyim... I really don't mind. Do goyim mind going for jews? ???"
oldbushie: "Storm, I don't think so! .... I did read up a bit more about the whole intermarriage thing. Is it true all around that when Jewish people marry goyim, they become dead in the eyes of Judaism? Maybe the effect is a bit less in America, but it worries me just a bit. If i fall in love with a Jewish girl, I don't want to mess up her life totally.
Oh, well. If only there were one humongous religion, with subsets. The subsets would merely be different ways of worshipping the major faith. I suspect that all religions have pretty much most of the same faith (ie be good, be nice to others, etc), so I still cannot understand why there is still so much friction between religions when that truth is increasingly becoming clearer."
Storm: "Jews marrying goyim don't necessarily become dead in the eyes of their families... it depends on how religious/primitive their family is.
It's not that the jews hate goyims or anything. Mixed marriages are prohibited because they are "dangerous" to the jewish religion - they cause the assimilation of the jews into the goyim and the loss of Jewish tradition.
That's why some orthodox families might cast out those who marry goyim - it's like they are going against everything they've been taught.
But then, the same families might also cast out those who become secular :-/ "
Just wanted to add -
In my country a jew can't marry a non-jew. Now that's a civil rights violation ):c
And I was thinking a bit about the purpose of religion, like why does it exist in the first place?
I suppose it is something like a security blanket, and it's YOUR blankie. Some people mature a bit, but some people cling tightly to the blankie. And when they see someone else with a different blankie, who tries to force that blankie on them, they get all upset because someone's trying to take their blankie away. That would certainly explain a lot, even if it is a bit heretical.
Those who mature more have less dependence on their "blankie" and become self-empowered, though they may also continue to pursue their religion but on a deeper, more spiritual, open-minded basis. They realize that their religion isn't the one and only way to enlightenment / high spiritual achievement, and can talk more openly with others like them.
Some people, after maturing from the initial security blankie, may not choose to go back to religion at all. This is perfectly fine, as long as they realize that they must try to ad-lib their way to enlightenment, with no one else's help. And then others, after maturity, concentrate on many religions and garner the most plausible truth from all of them.
It's just about always the individual person's choice on whether they should mature, but it's usually a good idea all the same.
QuoteOriginally posted by Storm
Just wanted to add -
In my country a jew can't marry a non-jew. Now that's a civil rights violation ):c
Dang. That is tricky...
I say we pull down these artificial barriers! The truth will out, no matter the form. Why should one religion be separated from others? They should mingle freely and expand the range of truth!!! ):c
Someday, perhaps many more people will become enlightened. Do no mistake the path (religion) for the journey (life).
Your "blankie" explaination is a bit simplistic ::)
Religion is more of a way for people to precive and make sense of the world around them. It doesn't have much to do with maturity - you're as much as saying that all religious people are immature :-/
Well, I didn't mean it THAT way... I did note that some religious people certainly are self-realized, it's just that some are closed in by religion. They get trapped by the way to the finish line (paradise or some such) but are not able to recognize that other ways/paths are just as valid. There are certainly many very religious people who are open-minded and know this.
I tend to be a bit weird in my explanations... ::)
QuoteOriginally posted by oldbushie
Dang. That is tricky...
I say we pull down these artificial barriers! The truth will out, no matter the form. Why should one religion be separated from others? They should mingle freely and expand the range of truth!!! ):c
Someday, perhaps many more people will become enlightened. Do no mistake the path (religion) for the journey (life).
Woh... are you preaching here? :D
Do you honestly think all religions should become one?
Religion doesn't equal enlightenment... and I don't believe in enlightenment.
It's like, you think a lot and do whatever and suddenly you get this enlightenment, and from that moment on you hold the absolute truth in your hand? not bloody likely... ::)
This is a subject I dislike becuase no matter what everyone would have a hard time trying to honest fully understand each other's side since religion, like it or not is a subjective matter of each, so religion has million meanings to everyone and yet its all converts into some belief to a high supreme being with standarts.
Im reading here though, but perhaps I lost my faith a long ago thats why I see it so empty now.
Well, it doesn't have to be enlightenment... religion can be used as a tool for accomplishing some sort of task that is ordinarily very difficult unless you have a lot of inner strength. Religion seems to provide that very well.
And no, religions don't neccessarily need become one... indeed, some religions are best in their native habitat, since all the metaphors most strongly apply to the place of origin.
I just want the religions to be more respectful of each other, that's all.
How did you lose your faith, Say? Was it in the beliefs or the structure that imposed it that you lost faith?
At times, I really can't stand the Catholic church, but I mostly hold with the main message (love God, love others) when everything is crazy. And I'm one of those people who sees God as the entire universe, so basically as long as I love everything and everyone, I'm okay.
Its like I say i do believe in god and I dont in church either you made it out correctly.
and whatever I might be experiencing now, I totally dont relate it at all with religion it just seems so void to me right now, I mean, all this talk about how selffufilling or how limitated or how great it is, its just at some point lacking of any interest to me.
I do feel like i lost hope in all that anyways, it stopped making sense to me for personal reasons, not exactly by it.
I grew up in a catholic church I do know more about bible and jesus and all more than I ever expected to or perhaps understand myself, I do respect it, I've also had the luck to meet muslims in, to meet buddist, of course jew and thats why I said exactly why I said, I did once the stupidity to talk my point of view to a muslims ladies and I got them offended as they offended me back, its impossible to agree sometimes, because we only have our reality when we come to talk about it...
I also think religion is the core of the people when you talk about culture, but it doesnt mean it is what it fills out the soul of everyone.
QuoteOriginally posted by oldbushie
I just want the religions to be more respectful of each other, that's all.
I must say in that respect, Judaism very tolerant - it's against jewish law to try convince people to convert to judaism.
Unlike Christianity (the inquisition) and Islam (Muhamad's faith by the sword).
Jews never fought any wars over religion ;D
I think when he said is about stop being judgemental about it, not religiously speaking but about personal people, is like some jews have hard feelings over catholics and catholics dont take serious jews, I've beent here myself, and well it sux, not everyone is open minded and nice about it like you are to be honest.
agh Im so sorry Im going to stay out of this, Ill just read.
Say -
I see why some Jews may have it in for the Christians, since they had so much troubles from them in the past, but what do you mean that catholics don't take jews seriously? ???
And you can say whatever you want about religion to me... I already stated I'm an atheist, so I couldn't care less ;D
its because the very very religious, fanatics i would dare to say, catolics only believe the only religion who diserves respect is theirs, so to be honest its like jews or others wouldnt exist or something.
yikes! hahaha too much love I think :P
thats somehow a bit alike how wiccan thinks. they love nature and its greatness or something.
Interesting... of course, my religion wouldn't have any of that magic stuff, love and the strength from it is all that is really needed to overcome just about everything that all the wiccan magic pretends to cure. I checked some of those spells, and it's all a matter of gaining strength from illusiory spells, though the strength is real.
I'm simple, and I want the universe to be also. Too bad so many people demand to make it more complicated with their explanations and such.
so you mean simplicity is the key?
oldbushie -
Your religion goes very much against human nature :P
Maybe simpler is best... ;)
Many are the times when we get caught up in the clutter of our personal life, and we fail to see the bigger picture. We are all on one planet, in this huge universe, and we are possibly the most complex thing within many many stars. Should we not make our existence more simple and easier to bear? There is so much needless strife we keep piling upon ourselves, when there is little that is truly neccessary. I wonder what would happen if we all attained the simple life of a hermit, only as hermits that bond together? It would certainly be hard, I don't dispute that.
Have you ever wondered why so much value is placed on entertainment now? It's because we have too much time on our hands. If we all do the simple chores, there would be just enough time left for simple pleasures. No need for all these classes, or for wars, or elaborate society structures. I wonder...
What is human nature exactly?
I don't know myself, but if love is the basis for everything, it will certainly be an improvement to mankind.
My nature is love, certainly others' nature may be happiness or hatred or sadness or whining. The trick is to find the best nature to be, and ascribe to it as a world society.
Then we can all be naive, loving, simpletons! Yay!
Yeah, I've read it. :D
Great book! ;D
I think your point is beautiful, seriously, to not be that complexe and be more simple, it sounds like it could be easier, but I believe how we are and how we act, the world we develop ourselves into, is not simple so consequently I couldnt picture myself into a simple world. :(
well what I particulary disagree about it is that its all by simple action and reaction, and to be honest even one single story has so many different points of view that i find it yes a bit interesting and amazing, but at the same time with a single point of view, just like we all are about things all.
Yeah, no one can have the same exact mind as anyone else, but it would be nice if there were more of a union with all minds, no matter what people are like. There could be a wide range of human experience, but if just one small thing is held in common by all, then that small thing can unite everyone. It could be love, or it could be fear. Fear of the expansive universe and natural disasters probably helps unite people in a good way. If only the common factor were a constant...
YIKES its 5 am here! I cant believe since I got home from campus I've been sitting here working, oh well I got home at midnight anyways . . . :'(
Ooh well, your keeping me company, how much more you guys think you can last over there? :P
but common factor as simplicity?
there are comunities that are soooo old, that it would be literally impossible for them to even modify or consider to adapt them to other cultures, because to unify them i think they all would have to start from 0 or something, so they could all equally be at the same page.
I'm probably good for another hour or two, I've gotta finish up some homework, ugh. It's 4 am over here right now, but i had a 2 1/2 hour nap earlier...
Heh, maybe the key is 'nothing'. Nothing can unite us, but all of us feel that there is nothing we can do at times. Maybe our complete helplessness in the face of the forces of nature?
We must bond, work with nature's disposition, and go with the flow of the universe... ;) So it's still a bit Wiccan but it probably works. I mean, even the simplest of farmers struggle with nature in order to get their crops growing. :)
lucky you I have been working since around 3 or so pm yesterday, at 5 pm class, i had class till near 11 pm, i arrived home midnight and Im working here on a paperwork since around 1 am or 2 am, no nap no eating in all day and today i have to go to campus earlier and be lucid to talk to my tesis tutor about it, yay, fun fun fun :(, the worst is that I have class tomorrow till midnight AGAIN :'( , I hate my college. :'( I dont make my hour schedule, its settle up per semester already :(
hahaha, what about if im a loner and i wanna work alone and die alone!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D hahahaha are you going to make me unite to tha world!?!!? ::)
hahaha just kidding ;D
I think what link us all is that we all are humans to be honest hahaha :P
oldbushie -
Human nature is way too complicated to be described by a single word. You must be very deluded if you think love is the basis for everything. All that's going on in our world - war, hunger, poverty etc. is a direct result of human nature.
You are not all about love. You have wants and needs like any other person.
What is this love you talk about? the general love you hold for every member of mankind? because let me tell you, there are some members of mankind that you wouldn't even like, not to mention love ::) .
If you're truly all about that love, why don't you give up all of your creature comfort you obviously enjoy in order to better the condition of those of mankind who are less fortunate than you, and dedicate your whole life to help them?
Now, if you did that, people would think you have mental issues, because that's against human nature. ;)
Aww... c'mon, Say! You can do it! Almost there, right? A couple more years and you CAN choose your own schedule better.
HAHAHAH I love storm's posts!! hahahaha oh god, your so funny sometimes with words. oh well, I thought you went to sleep like a normal person already storm, is sooo nice to still have you around here too :)
Hmmm... I guess I'm a crazy person then. I'm not exactly a radical when it comes to helping the lesser, but I certainly do my part to help them (Knights of Columbus and such). And I AM all about love, believe it or not. I've found something to love in each and every person, no matter how bad they may seem. Osama bin Laden is considered evil incarnate by many people I am sure, but there is still good in him; he wants to free his people from the yoke of commercialism. I don't blame him, but he certainly did go about things in an averse way.
I suppose you could call me an extreme optimist... ;)
HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Im going insane :(, no I cant chose my schedule ever, never did I wont be able either, in fact im in 8th semester and the last semesters of the career are ALL at night :'(
just 2 more to go! this is a 5 year degree but AAAAAAAHHHHH I wanna be lazy again damnit! :P heh, like I could :P
I read "who moved my cheese", and I think that book isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It's stupid, blunt, simplistic and deductive, but somehow today it became fasionable, like many of those philosophy-guide-books who try to explain your life to you and make you a better person.
It's amazing how you manage to strech a 2-page story over an entire book :o
HAHAHAHAHA GO STORM GO!!
yikes, hahaha yeah the book is certainly -reduced- heh as so to speak! but to be honest coomee onn!!! hahaha its just better than a fairy tale !!! ;D
didnt you just loved that part when Hew was telling the other one i already forgot hahahaha, DONT GIVE UP! WE SHOULD GO AND GET THE CHEESEEEEE, its "cheesy" indeed, there were some parts that agh did get to me like I was -yeah right- but come on its "saved lifes" storm!! hahaha
well I did enjoy it, the fact I dont asume it all as a rule of life is different ;D
QuoteOriginally posted by oldbushie
I suppose you could call me an extreme optimist... ;)
You could say that again, twice over. What's "Knights of Columbus"? :D
Say - I didn't quit, just went to have a shower. It's 11:30am here, a bit late for sleeping ;)
agh to be honest I think everyone read that book!!! or at least heard of it, so comercially speaking I think it says something of it ;D
like its either really apprecciated or just a comerial product or something :)
remember! "cheese makes you haapppyyy!!!" hahahaha I loved that part :D
11:30 am interesting, so we have like 6 hours difference, to me its like 6 am baby wide awake and working! woohoooo ;D
aaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
Yeah, that book definatly had very good PR.
to think that someone would actually PAY money for it... :o :o like I said, good PR. :P
storm!,
extreme optimist = happy freak! ;D
dont worry bushie I still luv you anyways my happy freak! hahahaha
Knights of Columbus is a worldwide service fraternity started around 1883 that helps those in need. It is more concentrated in the US, but has had quite an effect on other nations too. One thing we do is the tootsie roll selling thing to help mentally retarded children every year around Easter.
Yay! I'm a happy freak!
:suffer: :suffer: :suffer: :suffer:
did you guys noticed we did 4 pages in a night? :P
bushie created it, storm's idea! and im just goofying around here as usual, 4 pages!! in a night!! yay!! people who have email notify are soooo going to hate us when they wake up and check their email!!! hahahahahaha ;D
its your fault!!! ;D
Lol!!!!!!!!
I think the posts are only gonna be told to us, since no one else has been in here, but that would be hilarious! ;D
QuoteOriginally posted by oldbushie
Osama bin Laden is considered evil incarnate by many people I am sure, but there is still good in him; he wants to free his people from the yoke of commercialism. I don't blame him, but he certainly did go about things in an averse way.
Well, he definatly succeeded in freeing many people from their mortal pains.
We have a saying in Hebrew - "He who is weak against the cruelty ends up being cruel to the weak" (literal translation) ::)
I wonder if that's how bullies come about? First they are bullied (weak against cruelty) but later become bullies against those weaker than them. A vicious cycle, to be sure.
That proverb means that by ignoring the acts of bullies you yourself become one.
I bet you're one of those who oppose the war with Iraq as well...
wow this got deep, so you are in favor of it strom?!
QuoteOriginally posted by Storm
I bet you're one of those who oppose the war with Iraq as well...
Yeah, especially since I don't understand why Bush would suddenly strike at Iraq instead of continuing focus on getting bin Laden. I guess it's a default reflex he got from his dad. check out this link for an interesting song... http://www.domdummaste.se/bomb_iraq.html
Yeah, they should have had him kicked out in the last gulf war ):c
Now WE'RE the ones who suffer, and we have nothing to do with it ):c ):c
All we really need is a very good assassin to take out Saddam, though people have been trying for years. He is the only one who wants himself in power, everyone else wants him to get the hell out. But a full scale war harms all the good people. Maybe a really accurate missile to hit Saddam's home when he's in it?
QuoteOriginally posted by oldbushie
I don't understand why Bush would suddenly strike at Iraq instead of continuing focus on getting bin Laden.
Let me see... stopping one maniac from getting mass-destruction weapon vs. continuing the vandeta against Bin Laden, after already raising all of Afganistan to find him?
Yeah, though question (NOT!) ;)
What's really sad is that Castro's clearly getting senile and forgetting important details, like how many parts there are in Cuba. Maybe if he dies of old age, something good will happen. Anybody have a good way to give him a sudden heart attack? (Envisions Barney the purple dinosaur suddenly dropping right in front of Castro and starting that "i love you" song)
That's the a problem with Saddam... he lives in a bomb-shelter and uses doubles for his public appearences. ::)
Oh, hell, this is all too confusing. There must be a button somewhere to fix all this. *finds "kill all terrorists instantaneously" button and presses it*
Right now the US is very paranoid, but nothing really seems to be solving the issue very much...
oh hahahah that would make a lovely headline in a newspaper
"BARNEY KILLED CASTRO!" hahahaha
really once you get to live it on your own skin, that it touches you so close is when you DO get annoyed and you DO get angry and I think somehow Bush being responsible of USA right now, he either way he takes is going to be questioned no matter what, is sooo easy for people to say "no war please!" but what do you say to the relatives of the people who died, and the people who is actually hurt by it, who responds from all the lost they had about lives and material ones?
besides its so lame they mix religion AND politics you know? that to me is hipocrite.
yeah, it confuses things to no end. after all, there is supposed to be separation between the two, as they are already very complicated individually. Religion and politics just don't mix. Look at Rev. Jesse Jackson, for instance. A reverend, in politics, using these outrageous religious reasons for luxurious vacations to other countries? I think not.
oldbushie -
Doesn't your "all about love, something good in everyone" attitude keeps you from pressing the "kill all terrorists" button? :o
hahaha, It doesnt matter they are (to me) scum! worse than it could ever be, so I just really wish for example americans didnt comercialized this shirts with osama bin laden or whatever, they even made a market out of it, what is he? a hero or something?
hes not and he diserve nothing but apathy, not even hate but to be forgotten and buried for what he did
I once saw a shirt that said "got osama?" like "got milk" stuff I find that so stupid.... seriously why people ever even like to sell a shirt with his face??
he is becoming an icon like saddam... how lame.
Of course the war in Afganistan was just a politcal move... Bush had to show the Americans he's extracting vengence for 9/11. The whole thing actually made him look better for the American public - before that he was kinda considered to be an incompetant son-of, who's election was questionable. ;)
agh yes, your right.
politics sucks! :(
Heh, if we could somehow get Castro, Saddam, and bin Laden into one room, what would happen?
Would they finish each other off?
And, what if those three were completely forgotten? I suppose that would be kinda like the whole "letting yourself be bullied" thing, so that wouldn't work.
I don't think it should be a war against Iraq, but a war against the Dastardly Trio. Where are the Powerpuff Girls when you need them?
agh yeah but THAT scum?! thats agh too much.
besides too damn recent too... it was like months after I got to saw shirts ant icons and everything about it...
powerpuff girls?! hahahaha
forget that, lets tell knight to use his killer monkey army!!! aaahhhh!!! hahahaha ;D
oldbushie -
What if you only had the "Kill 'em all" button available? ::)
If I only had the kill 'em button, I would push it as an act of love, since by pushing it I save many many lives.
oh you and your love.... we need to get you a gf right now! hahahaha, read my other posts, love sux! ;D
I'd like to add Arafat to the list... :D
I don't want there to be a war with Saddam, especially since the last time the Americans had a war with Saddam we had to sit in sealed rooms and wear gas masks ):c
On the other hand, would it be better to just leave him alone so that he could get those weapons and THEN use them against us? tough choice...:-/
WHY HE HAS THEM ANYWAYS?! I mean, agh why he has to be so sick as to have that if he werent planning to use them you know? I really think either way I just wish he wouldnt have any of that.
QuoteOriginally posted by Say
oh you and your love.... we need to get you a gf right now! hahahaha, read my other posts, love sux! ;D
Well, I'm a believer in "it's better to have loved and lost, than not to have loved at all". I do want to find out what it is like to love someone exclusively, even if things don't turn out right in the end. I'll find the right gf eventually. :D
BUSHIE! stick talking about religion and politics, dont get on my nerves talking good about love!, I cant believe your so freaking happy! :P even to just say that :(
you definitively dont know what is to have a broken heart :'(
Yeah oldbushie, he who loves EVERYBODY actually loves nobody. ::)
:'( , thats so darn true....
its like the excuse of a gigolo "I love women, I love them all" in the end all he loves is himself :(
I don't think I've ever really had a broken heart, but I've certainly been crushed a few times.
You know that little poem "So and so sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g..."? Well, I thought it was a life plan and not a joke that people used to make fun of relationships, and I actually drew a little picture to go with it and gave it to a girl I liked when in the 4th grade. Needless to say, she took it badly, and I was a bit crushed about the whole thing. I'm a bit naive about society. :-[
And I have had times where my mom had to be away from me for a long time when I was little, and I hardly knew her when she finally got back from the hospital. After that, I never wanted to be separated from her again, and preschool caused a bout of homesickness sometime during the year. I'm a momma's boy, and it hurts to be a way from home. :-[
So yes, I've had pangs in my heart. I wish I could sympathize, but no one has broken my heart yet. I hope your heart heals soon! :-/
*puts a band-aid on Say's heart*
QuoteOriginally posted by Storm
Yeah oldbushie, he who loves EVERYBODY actually loves nobody. ::)
I don't know about that, but I try to keep my love from being overly general. I definitely love my family, and all my wonderful friends, and the people I don't know as well I send love to so that they have enough love to get by. And no, I'm not very egotistical. I have my bouts of depression. I ain't no gigolo either. I just want to be loved back, and it hurts when that doesn't always happen... but I love anyways.
oh my god bushie you seriously are about to make me cry here, well Im a loner because i learnt to be, and Im very choosy when it comes to personal life so I do tend to be selective in who I talk to and what I talk about, for example, to be honest I dont have friends, I have clients, classmates, Im very separated emotionally to everything, so yes, when I put my heart into a relationship is I do give myself a lot, and well... I cant say more, I really shouldnt, but it hurts, when you give and everything is misunderstood and it isnt even in your hands to fix it it doesnt matter how much you could, all you have to do is sit down and cry just to pray for it to go away, the pain I mean.
So I know what its like to be alone and to have and then be afraid to let go, thats pretty much what it feels to have your heart broken, sometimes is not even up you yourself... :'(
Im sorry but Im going to have to go for now, It did reach me and hurt a nerve here so instead of rambling here, Im going to let you guys talk and I'll hang around back here when I'll feel better.
*hugz both*
Its been fun, I'll be back later.
Okay, later. :-[
I'll try not to talk about matters of love anymore since it's so painful, I'll let it be for a while.
*hugz Say*
"Love is the most selfish of emotions, and when injured - the most cruel" (forgot who said that) :-X
Some say that the world needs more love. They are wrong. It needs more Tolerance, compassion and morality, but not love.
I think I'm an obsessive sympathizer. I want to share other people's pains to lessen the pain. I saw the "Green Mile" movie a few years ago and I thought about how much I wished I could take people's pain away from them too. So I was one of the few people who was actually jealous of those who broke bones or whatnot, because I couldn't relate and I wanted to help them feel better.
Oh well.
I can't truly sympathize with everyone, but I try... :-[
Heck, with my hearing trouble, sight trouble, allergies, asthma, petit epilepsy (gone now), and two surgeries, I can at least sympathize with quite a few people. ;) Of course, I'm so used to those disabilities now that I hardly notice them anymore...
My one wish is that everyone in the world be happy...
I'm a bit of a simple fellow. :-/
Ain't nothing wrong with wanting to enjoy the simple things :)
I saw a documentary on two Australian people going to Irac....or was it Afgahnistan? Well anyway.......they were going to be "Human shields" to poor civilians where there was war, or going to be war!
Now, I call that real heroism!!!!! Placing yourself so you get hurt and not someone else!
They said they were doing it, because it is the only thing they can do - and they felt bad not to help.:o
KatieHal -
I'm from Israel... what other place is there for a Hebrew speaking jew? ::)
I haven't heard of those Australians... but I must say there either totaly nuts or plain morons. It's not like they can actually prevent anyone from dying, just get themselves killed alongside them for the sake of protest :P
haha, good point there Storm ;-)
As for the Australians, I too hadn't heard about that but I've heard similar things. Tons of people are obviously going over to protest...I found out from one article that technically Americans who go to Iraq are breaking the law, not that it's a law that ever *really* gets enforced, but they could legimately get arrested for doing so.
And if they died in protest, then they've more or less reached their goal. Stop a war or die trying, right? The protest is the whole point.
Stupid thing I heard this weekend: apparentally since France isn't supporting the US's warmongering (and from that you might see I don't either!), some restaraunts are now calling them "freedom fires" intead of "french fries."
Without question, one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. It's not even like they come from France! It's a name for how they're cut! Why are some people in my country so dumb....like our President for example...when I heard about Sadam wanting to have a Televised live debate with Bush. My reply, "Well, now that's not fair, he's hitting Bush's weak spot! He *knows* he can't speak for himself and sound intelligent!" ;)
I KNOW it's nuts, but at least it shows humanity......at least they care!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:P
There was a lot less protest for that war for some very particular reasons (okay, so this is still world politics...oh well).
One, the war was against Al-Qaida/the Taliban/Osama Bin Laden and not Afghanistan, that just happened to be the country they were (primarily) located in.
Two, Al-Qaida (is it with an "i" or an "e"? I've seen it both ways) made an EXTREMELY aggressive first move - they hijacked commercial airlines filled with completely innocent people and high-speed crashed them into building filled similarly innocent people. About 3,000 people died in one day; heck, within two hours! And not just Americans, people of all nationalities and origins were victims of that attack. I don't think I need to argue how, well, evil the attacks of 9-11 were to anyone.
Bin Laden's group made a clear first attack and declaration in doing that. Not many people were going to argue with bringing down his organization and him. We hadn't sought him out and attacked, he was the one doing that.
Now, Iraq on the other hand, while not having a shimmering white & pure past, has recently not really done anything antagonistic or aggressive. In my opinion, yes, they should be held to the UN weapons regulations if they are a part of the UN in any way. And they've been a problem in the past, so yes, some caution and careful watching should take affect as well. But declaring war pre-emptively? There's no reason for it. Especially when so many other countries are against it, and Iraq does seem to making concessions now, trying to take steps to avoid a war. Of course, one can argue they are only doing it because we threatened to start a war with them, but they have still shown signs of "backing down" so to speak.
It makes sense that more people are protesting this war because we (America) are the ones being the agressors, finding reasons and excuses, and basically war-mongering. I'm very anti-violence...I hate it, and war will never beget peace, it will onyl beget more war because people's memories are often too long, and their pride is too easily wounded.
On a down note, I heard on the radio this morning that a lot of those "human sheilds" left because it was getting too dangerous. !?!?!? Well, duh!!:-/
The disarmament agreements Iraq is violating are the ones inforced upon it after their defeat in the Gulf War. Personally, I think Bush shouldn't jump the gun, but also that the UN and europe should stop being so lenient. After all, Saddam's not kicking monitors out and hording weapons for his personal amusment :o
The europeans should have learned their lesson from WW2 - after the Germans were defeated in WW1, the rest of europe went soft on them, ignored the German violation of the disarmament agreements they signed, and gave them territories they demanded when they threatened war. What did we get then? WW2, and the Nazies just a few wrong decisions away from taking over europe :o
I wasn't intending to make you feel I was saying you were a war fanatic! Sorry if you felt that way.
And I'll be the first to admit that most of my opinions & ideas when it comes to any kind of politics are just that - ideas & opinions. I couldn't pull out too many facts for any one if I tried, which is something I don't like and try to work on, but I seem to keep running into people who know more than I do.
War = bad. Violence = bad. And I don't think any of the attacking between Israel and Palestine (sp?) does anyone any good either.
It's all horrible, and you're obviously much closer to it than I.
It's especially...hmm, ironic? that all these wars are fought over religion and freedom, two things that preach tolerance, equality, and so forth. Yet they already begin to contradict themselves the moment they are "enforced" because that means someone else was already wrong and their idea, whatever it may have been, was lesser, intolerable, not equal and "wrong."
It'd be nice it was all as easy as "Can't we all just get along?" !
It's a big problem when people decide on their opinions without knowing all the facts. Sometimes I feel hated by people who make up their minds about the Israelis without knowing the first thing about the whole conflict :'(
Of course war is bad, but when a country is attacked it has to fight back. In the Israeli-Arab conflict, both sides made stupid and unjust moves, but people tend to forget that the ones who started the war and caused the Palestinians to become refugees in the firstplace were the Arab countries.
And yes, it would be nice if we all just got along. What would be even nicer is if some people pulled their heads out of their asses and realize land isn't worth dying for or killing for.;)
QuoteOriginally posted by KatieHal
Stupid thing I heard this weekend: apparentally since France isn't supporting the US's warmongering (and from that you might see I don't either!), some restaraunts are now calling them "freedom fires" intead of "french fries."
... It's not even like they come from France! It's a name for how they're cut!
I still don't get it why you don't call them how they're supposed to be called and that's
BELGIAN FRIES! ;D
P.S. I also am against a war on Iraq, especially now.
We just call them chips over here... :P
P.S.
Well, color me stunned!! 8)
Hmmm... I wanna create an anti-weapon! A shock-wave that destroys all weapons in its path...
So what if the museums incur heavy losses? ;)
I think a lot of society gets too wrapped up in the whole idea of beating the heck out of other people, especially when the tag of "evil" is attached to them.
Isn't it true that it takes one to know one? Who's really the bad guy? It's hard to tell for sure, but the US sure acts like the bad guy sometimes but is too blind to see it (government wise, that is).
I secretly think mankind invented "evil", and uses that to destroy perfectly good people who are wrongfully labeled.
I don't think anyone deserves that label, since there is NO one I have ever seen that really fits that label. Maybe "harmful to society" yes, but it's really only actions that can be considered evil.
QuoteOriginally posted by oldbushie
Hmmm... I wanna create an anti-weapon! A shock-wave that destroys all weapons in its path...
So what if the museums incur heavy losses? ;)
I think a lot of society gets too wrapped up in the whole idea of beating the heck out of other people, especially when the tag of "evil" is attached to them.
Isn't it true that it takes one to know one? Who's really the bad guy? It's hard to tell for sure, but the US sure acts like the bad guy sometimes but is too blind to see it (government wise, that is).
I secretly think mankind invented "evil", and uses that to destroy perfectly good people who are wrongfully labeled.
I don't think anyone deserves that label, since there is NO one I have ever seen that really fits that label. Maybe "harmful to society" yes, but it's really only actions that can be considered evil.
How's that quote go? Something like, "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
I think we all ahve the potential to go "good" or "evil" - it's a matter of choice, which really is the most powerful thing - weapon or otherwise - that any of us have. In the hands of one man or woman can the fates of countless others lay.
And there's also "Evil thrives when a good person does nothing." (I always attribute that quote to "The Writing on the Wall" because I actually *did* see it written on a wall!)
TO his credit, after Bush had his press conference this evening, it was the most impressed with him I've ever been and I don't feel he's quite as dead-set on war as I did before. I still by no means like the idea, though.
I wonder where the origins of evil are? The Bible says it was a serpent that gave Adam and Eve fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, but in actuality, what exactly happened?
But I don't neccessarily think that evil doesn't exist, it's more I think that no one is pure evil. Maybe in movies... but never in real life.
And one thing I heard a while back was "evil only has power over you if you think it does". Or something like that, I forget.
Oh, and I saw a bit of Bush's speech, but I had trouble dealing with the sudden pauses and his speech impediment, so I wasn't able to watch it all the way through. :P
Ah, well.
Oldbushie -
It was the tree of knowing good and evil, not of knowledge. It gave them the ability to tell right from wrong, and in that sence, be like god.
QuoteI secretly think mankind invented "evil", and uses that to destroy perfectly good people who are wrongfully labeled.
I don't think anyone deserves that label, since there is NO one I have ever seen that really fits that label. Maybe "harmful to society" yes, but it's really only actions that can be considered evil.
Reading this, I would prefer to call you naive rather then down-right blind. ::)
Do you honestly think every single person "labeled evil" is really good? do you think murderers and rapists are just good, misunderstood individuals? We don't condemn people for being evil, we condemn them for doing evil. Labeling is just a simplification, one that doesn't effect people's opinion of a person but rather is derived from the evil that person did.
I agree with storm, its easy for all of us to say they dont want war and everything even though this all came as a top news recently, but those countries who are constantly in conflict see a different reality big time, to them this is -sadly- not nothing new but they do have a different perspective regarded to it.
and as katie goes about good and evil, shes right we all got a bit of everything, but to be honest I dont think saddamn (on this case) is secretly good labeled bad, to me is a goddamn stupid criminal ass, EVIL, yes, and i dont think hes misunderstood at all, I believe hes quite clear of what he has done and what he is doing right now.
Thank you Say!!
Finally someone agrees with me ;D
Hey, I didn't say they were misunderstood...
Just not PURE evil.
I can agree that there's definitely a heck of a lot of bad in some people, but maybe just one tiny pinprick of good, locked far, far away.
awww how cute ::)
hahaha i think you're really really sweet bushie even your sad stories sound cute! :D
QuoteOriginally posted by Storm
The Israelis don't trust the europeans and the UN, mainly because they are always against us.
Why would they
always be against you? Also, if I may, are you maybe referring to the fact Israel is also in violation of several UN-resolutions?
I agree you have every right to defend yourselves against Palestinian attacks, but have you ever thought about
why they are driven to doing the things they do?
QuoteOriginally posted by Say
I dont think saddamn (on this case) is secretly good labeled bad, to me is a goddamn stupid criminal ass, EVIL, yes, and i dont think hes misunderstood at all, I believe hes quite clear of what he has done and what he is doing right now.
Saddam knows very well indeed what he is doing now. That is why he won't attack Turkey because he knows NATO will react. But, who was supporting Iraq (and thus Saddam) when he was fighting 'big bad' Iran a while back?
QuoteOriginally posted by copycat
Why would they always be against you? Also, if I may, are you maybe referring to the fact Israel is also in violation of several UN-resolutions?
I agree you have every right to defend yourselves against Palestinian attacks, but have you ever thought about why they are driven to doing the things they do?
Why are they against us? I don't know. Maybe it's because they are antisemitists. The fact that Israel is in violation of UN resolutions only goes to show the UN resolutions are made against Israel.
Of course I gave much thought (probably more than you did) to WHY they do the things they do. I'm sure the americans also thought about why Bin-Laden did what he did, and that didn't keep them from waging war against Afgainstan just to get him and his organization.
And surprise, surprise!!! No UN resolution there!!! :P
I've been quiet in here lately, and I think I'm just going to tip my hat to those who clearly know more than I do about all of this. What I really have meant for my opinions to come down to is this:
- fighting & war (anywhere by anyone!) = bad
- George W. Bush = not so smart
- peace = good
- religion (where we started this and ended up on war...hmmm, oh the small parallels of life) = believe what you will, want and need to, so long as you're not hurting someone else.
That being said, I really can't claim any political knowledge and I do hope I haven't come off anywhere as a stupid American spouting her mouth off. Politics are not my forte and never have been.
Deaths anywhere are a sad thing, and always hardest on those left behind. Conflict resolution anywhere in the world needs work and I'm an idealist to hope it can all be done without killing. Whoever's shooting or bombing who is never in the right.
In the end, I just hope it all works out well and with the least amount of pain possible, really. Again, idealistic, but it's nice to dream.
"world peace" sounds dreamy, but to be honest I dont think that would ever happen, there shall always be differences, in culture, politics, social structures and whatever, the point is i believe it would take more than one structure for everyone to get in and make amend or something, I dont see it that easy myself.
yikes, this is getting heavy here
Yeah, not to mention long :D
Thank God it's over!!!!!!!!!
It's far from over... the war here is just begining!!! ::)
Hoo boy, you all have been doing some heavy thinking here, a lot of strong opinions.
I believe in self-defense wars, wars to preserve one's freedom and dignity, and most of all one's life. But dignity is often confused with pride, the first of all sins, according to the bible. I think evil stems from hatred, greed, and pride. Good also stems from three things, love, peace and compassion. War should be a last result, after all else had failed. Even then, war leads to disaster, but sometimes there is no choice. Like the civil war and WWII, war was the only way to make progress. I am a peace-loving person, but when cornered I will fight back.
I have been reading about buddhism, it is a very interesting religion. Unlike islam and christianity it was never spread forcefully through violence. It can be an atheist philosophy, or a faith in an intricate stystem of gods, buddhas and bodhisatvas. Compassion is the most important element of buddhist life, and buddhist do not believe in making oneself suffer like aesthetics, but the necesseties of life need to be fufil to acheive harmony. I might appreciate buddhist wisdom, but I do not think I want to be a buddhist, for one thing they are vegetarians and I like meat, and they do not believe in killing insects.
Is the vegetarianism required? From what I understand, Buddhism is kind of more like a philosophy than a religion, and I think it allows for you to basically keep or give up whichever practices you like.
QuoteOriginally posted by KatieHal
- fighting & war (anywhere by anyone!) = bad
That's pacifism you're talking about. Do you really believe that people shouldn't fight back even when they are attacked?
QuoteOriginally posted by Dragonstar
I have been reading about buddhism, it is a very interesting religion. Unlike islam and christianity it was never spread forcefully through violence.
Ahem, Judaism was also never spread forcefully ;)
I thought the insect thing was only for buddist monks, who walk around with brooms and sweep the ground before them so they wouldn't harm even the smallest creature.
By that logic, they should also kill themselves, so that they're immune system wouldn't harm any germs :P
Ah yes, Judiasm was spread by bloodline, by families, jewish parents would have children and raise them to be jewish. I think someone mentioned earilier that religion and faith is basically good, but when one tries to enforce the rules of a religion, then it becomes violent and intolerant. Like when religion is spread by warfare, people are forced to convert, people are executed for sexual sins, etc. This is why America is unique, with the idea of freedom of religion and a government independent from religion. That's the way it's supose to be, but a lot of church organization meddle in politics, like the christian coalition, and they can have a lot of influence in Washington, as can human rights organization and other atheist organizations. With the current republican trend, I think the religious groups will have more power than the liberal atheist groups.
About buddhism, the rules of Dharma (right law for living) vary. The priests obviously have to set and example for others and have high ethical standards. LOL about the germ thing, Storm. The thing about not killing animals goes with karma, they believe the soul gets reborn into other bodies, creating and endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth. If a person has been bad, they will get reborn either as a lower-class person or an animal. That's probably why they a re kinder towards animals. I think some buddhist believe eating meat is ok as long as you didn't kill the animal yourself, and it's only the priests that do not kill insects. For me, bugs are pests, if they invade my home and try to bite me, I will smash them or spray them with poison. Only the biting and stinging insects are the ones I kill.
Don't even get me started on the whole religion/state thing!! ):c
In Israel it's MUCH worse than in the US - there are religious parties here who's entire purpose is to try and force religion over the secular majority, and only take care of the religious jews.
There's an entire sub-culture here of religious jewish orthodox parasites - they get money from the govenment for studying judaism (supposedly), don't serve in the army, AND look down at the secular people who support them by working and paying taxes. ):c
These people create a grudge against them among the entire public, and give Judaism a bad name :(
I know a bit about about buddhism (I watched "Little Buddha" :P). I don't see why a Buddhist should be a vegetarian - if he/she thinks the animal will be reincarnated anyway. They might even be doing them a favor - speeding up their next incarnation ::)
There is also a darker side to the belief that a sinner would be reincarnated into an animal or a less forunate person - a Buddhist might tell himself that people who suffer in this life deserve it because of what they've done in their past life, which leads to the whole caste system :(
Is it just me, or is the UN getting too liberal? Do they want all nations to be pacifists or something? In the real world you have to fight back if someone pushes you too far, or you'll loose more than just your life. World peace would be nice, but it is highly unrealistic. In the bible and among apocolyptic and fundamental christians, world peace is seen as a weapon of the anti-christ, he will bring world peace to seduce people into believing he is the savior, then people will follow him and eventual start to worship him, he will claim to be all enlightened and to have the solutions to the world's problems, but all he really wants is control, to make himself like God.
The UN has stood against the US with the war with Iraq, I'm not sure about the war, I guess it is a good idea because Sadam must be stopped before he becomes to powerful, or unleashes one of his nukes. But the Iraqis seem to hate Americans more than they hate Sadam, and a lot of people are going to die in this war. I wish Bush would concentrate on rebuilding Afghanistan, hunting down terrorists and helping out Israel and Palestine instead.
The UN is always too liberal, and usually against any kind of military interventions. I think it's mostly influenced by the west european "don't attack anyone unless they're coming to kill you in your beds" approach :-/
I don't think you can really determine right now how much the iraqies hate Saddam. You have to consider that they like under a reign of terror, where anyone speaking against Saddam is risking his life :o
Also, they are brainwashed to hate the Americans and Israel. It's a known method for tyrants - find an outside emeny to blame for all the stuff you're doing. It's demonstrated quite nicely in Orwells "1984", where constant war, no matter against who, is used to spend the countrys resources in order to keep the masses poor and under control.
Hmm, I wonder what's going on in Afghanistan these days? Who is ruling that country?
Hm, apparentally in transcribing the commandments, Moses added an addendum:
Thou shalt not kill...unless thou art intending anyone who disagrees with you, especially where religious beliefs are concerned. In which case, go get those sons of bitches!
Riiiight....yes, good points Dragonstar.
In the bible, thou shalt not kill applies only to other jews or christians, and then there are always 'executions' of those who do not follow the rules. When it comes to people not of your faith, the bible is all for kicking their butts. But in the new testament, peaceful solutions are sought. Your supose to wait for God to punish people.
Ah yes, the oxymoron that is a "holy war."
QuoteOriginally posted by Storm
The american forces should have at least stayed there to keep the peace and form a stable government there, before rushing off to yet another war. Hopefully, they'll do better in Iraq :-/
'Fraid not. Don't forget, they have to move on, on to Iran and Syria! 8)
I think you mean Iraq 8)
I wasn't aware of the situation in Afghanistan, and given that information, I kinda agree with Storm here. If we're going to go around toppling regimes and whatnot, we ought to stick around to make sure something just as bad or even worse doesn't go up in its place.
Last week I saw some clip on the news talking about how now the Iraqis want to soldiers out and say that they're/we're being occupational now, and that's what I thought of - leaving right now, when there is absolutely no government set up to run the country at all, is only going to leave a gaping hole for another dictator to fill in! I see what they mean and want, but it's really not a great idea right now, I don't think.
And religion leads us to politics...again :P
I agree with you on this one. The US forces should at least stay around to create some order. This war is not about religion, but about oil. However, islam extremists are trying to make it an attack on their religion. What the hell is their problem? What is so sacred about their land? Did we claim that christianity was attacked with 9/11? No, America was attacked. Pride goes before the fall. I wish those religious jackasses would get their heads out of the sand. They make the fundamentalists christian evangelists seem liberal. Don't even get me started about the preachers in my own country. Religion can really inflate one's ego, while God really wants to humble people and teach us compassion.
QuoteThis war is not about religion, but about oil.
True, but what would you say if in Islam army attacked two Christian countries, amongst one which poses no threat to that Islam army's country. Would you not think it was a religious war too?
KatieHal, no I meant what I typed. They're already in Iraq, so why should they move on to where they already are?
Yes America should stay in Iraq, but not with soldiers, but with other personnel. The war is over, so soldiers are no longer of any use. Now is the time to build Iraq up again, and that's not something soldiers are good at.
I saw some funny political cartoons making fun of Bush. You can find them at msn's home site. I hope Bush gets voted out of office.
I'd had hoped Bush would have never gotten into office. :-/ But, alas, brother Jeb thought otherwise.
EDIT: since Bush got elected through huge support from religious groups, this is relevant to the thread. 8)
And I seriously hope he doesn't get RE-elected.
With a religious-like fervor ;-)
Why do religious groups like him so much? Hmm, I guess I can answer that one myself.....he is a conservative Republican, he says he approves of traditional christian values for the country, and he fights those bad muslims and middle eastern terrorists (being sarcastic here) he cuts taxes 9even though the country's budget can't afford to.) and he tries to improve education, though I have seen little improvemnt, what with all the budget cuts.
With 'improving education' you mean 'make it teach more lies to American children', right? :-X