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The Royal Archives => Asylum Archives => Topic started by: patrick83301 on August 25, 2006, 02:19:13 PM

Title: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: patrick83301 on August 25, 2006, 02:19:13 PM
Hey,
I have a confession to make, I never played all of MoE XD. So all I know about Connor is what I saw in the beginning of MoE and in Kq2+. So, to help decide whether to like Connor or not, I need your help. Please tell me why I should or shouldn't hate Connor.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Jafar on August 25, 2006, 02:45:37 PM
He steals from innocent villagers, promotes violent solutions to problems, and was a meanieh to Alexander in a TSL spoiler.

On the other hand, he...um...fixed a mask. :P
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Rosella on August 25, 2006, 02:57:54 PM
Ooh, must find Storm. :P
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Storm on August 25, 2006, 03:56:09 PM
I'm found! :D

To hate or not to hate... that is the question (of this thread, anyways). Now, as Chief Connor Basher of this forum (2 years in a row), I am expected to say something along the lines of "hate now!" and go into a furious rant about how Connor single-handedly destroyed the KQ series :stabs:
However, if you haven't played MOE, you can never quite appreciate why people hate Connor so much. If you've been told how horrible Connor is, you might grow to dislike him, but it takes hours of exposure to his irritating voice, senseless violence and all-around annoying non-personality to REALLY get the hate part down :evil:
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Louisiana Night on August 25, 2006, 04:00:40 PM
Small Note before I start: keep these posts nice, no flaming(though flaming/burning Connor at the stake is acceptable, if it helps you deal with your negative emotions). ;)

Where to begin, where to begin… XB
Actually, as many dislike Connor’s character on the basis of disliking MoE, I will begin there.

Let’s see here… people often argue that MoE was the worst official game bearing the KQ name, because it was action-oriented, right? Now, the MoE-haters also tend to state that the main character not being a member of the royal family is a flaw. Now… WHY are these two details so often pointed out(often by the same person)? If anything, you should be THANKING Connor for being the main/playable character, because otherwise it would have been a member of the royal family(granted, seeing Rosella or Valanice taking down monsters with their 1337 skillz would have been very amusing). Personally, I liked MoE… but I would have had a major problem with playing through the same game as Graham(or, to a lesser degree, Alexander). Feel free to tell me, if MoE had to exist, how Connor made things worse and not better(if only more bearable).

Now, on to Connor himself. Although his character was not as fleshed-out as well as it could have been(as many have stated), he had more depth than most characters in the KQ games(ignoring non-game materials). He had many characteristics one would associate with the Paladin stereotype, including his appearance by the end of the game(going from the clothing of a peasant, to armour befitting a Paladin, right down to its “holy armour” references). I will begin with his character’s strong/good points, then move on to his alleged faults.

As I stated, his personality fits the Paladin stereotype very well(the main difference being, despite his role in the game, he is a low-class peasant… which is also apparent in his personality). As even Storm has stated, he is very honourable. Some people point to him being an artist as a sign of certain personality traits(a canvas is found in his house, which he comments about)… but I fail to see it as a sign of him having any positive traits people have given him(based upon this information). There is no reason to assume he painted nice things like flowers, he could have just as easily had Gabriel Knight-like paintings… and I personally see both extremes as conflicting with his more apparent MoE personality traits.

Some people note that he was violent, but given the in-game circumstances, Alexander would have also taken a similar route(it cannot be used to help identify Connor’s personality traits). Also of note is that, despite the player commanding him to attack, on more than one occasion he will refuse, in the way of sheathing his sword when being asked to not attack(if I remember correctly, this can sometimes be activated while attempting to attack an NPC in mid-air… clicking an NPC while grounded never resulted in this dialogue for me*).

Despite what has been said, several puzzles were also in the game. Most MoE-haters say he solved problems with his sword rather than his wit to point to him as unintelligent, despite him solving puzzles befitting a KQ game… save the jumping puzzles, combat-oriented puzzles, and the odd Mask square puzzle(combined making up the minority of the puzzles). The enemies also, quite often, required one to use basic tactics to defeat them(similar to other, better known, 3rd-person action games).

Personally, I only find one very strange fault with his character(as far as going against the “noble hero” stereotype). The guy has an obsession with gold. Even though everyone is stone, and he could take whatever he needed, the guy seemed to be convinced he needed gold(there actually were times when gold was used, but they were rare, and the majority of it involved buying weapons which were obsolete by the next level). Keep in mind, this does not make him a kleptomaniac(as I said before, he could have stolen plenty of things, but it always seems to be gold), he is just obsessed with gold. He comments that he believes they won’t mind considering his “present need for their gold”… but, as I said before, there was little to use it for, and less reason to think he would need it(a much better way to question his sanity/honour/intelligence than the violence argument ;)).

*as I have not played the game in quite sometime, I will need to play a section of MoE to verify it and be 99% certain.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: TribeHasSpoken on August 25, 2006, 04:01:12 PM
Don't worry. The Terminator will take care of Connor soon enough.

Oh wait, that's Sarah Connor. In that case, I guess you're stuck.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Storm on August 25, 2006, 04:18:56 PM
Darn :(


As even Storm has stated, he is very honourable.

ME???!?? WHERE??? and what was I on at the time? :o
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Louisiana Night on August 25, 2006, 04:25:26 PM
Don't worry, it was in an arguement/discussion about who should take Graham's place, upon his death(I believe you said that was why he wouldn't take the throne, but I am unsure... I have a poor memory ;)). ;P

*digs it up*
EDIT: Kings Quest: This Time, 'Tis Personal (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=1023.msg47916#msg47916)

Okay, so the "very" was slightly exaggerated. :P
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on August 25, 2006, 04:54:41 PM
Well connor only takes a tiny bit of gold from from people in his village(including from his own house), and some family in the swamp.

He says yes he needs the gold and they won't mind as they are his friends, and well he needs it help cure them from their stone.

Infact when you save Gwennie she tells him to take her father's gold, he won't mind. Obviously people in the town don't mind the hero taking their gold if its for a good cause.

There is more gold where it came from of course, since it is the standard legal tender of the land... Chest of Gold and all that.

Yes the gold was very much needed. Without the gold from Daventry, he couldn't buy the War Hammer or the Essence of Sun Tzu(hell there was barely enough gold to buy those).

Without the War Hammer he can't get past the locked door in the Underground Realm of the Gnomes, or get the tree root, amberglow, crystal shard. Both the breaking the lock, and getting the crystal shard were items were required to complete the Underground Realm of the gnomes so he could move onto the next area. So yes he needed the gold. Wel, without  the iron lock, treeroot and amberglow he couldn't have received the Sun Tzu essence...

To destroy the basilisk he also needed to buy the black diamond tipped spear, which also required a bit of gold.

For anyone keeping track Connor only steals less than 200 gold coins from the people in daventry and the swamp. All other gold is found in chests in creepy dungeons, or off corpses.  So not counting his money, or the money Gwennie allows him to take, he only takes 65 gold coins from Simm's house and Julia. All other gold he he found near the village was found in abandoned areas, lost outside, or off enemies.

Connor also mentions that Julia has helped him before, so he's helping her now.

Once he gets past Underground Realm of the Gnomes and defeats Lucreto he has enough gold to pay them back 10x over.

Oddly enough he also gave a bit of gold back to his Church to get a blessing(I suppose its surprising he didn't raid the collection box). He also payed oracle of the tree to get prophecies that would give him clues, or information about his enemy.

He's not much worse than the royal family though, which were known to enter houses without permission and take things that did not belong to them.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Storm on August 25, 2006, 06:57:14 PM
Infact when you save Gwennie she tells him to take her father's gold, he won't mind. Obviously people in the town don't mind the hero taking their gold if its for a good cause.

Hmmm, if a some kid came up to you and said "here, use dad's credit card, he wouldn't mind", I'd still like to get permission from the owner before going on a shopping spree. You definitely can't infer that everyone in town would gladly give away their money based on one kid.

Besides, all you say is in hindsight. Sure he needed the gold later to buy stuff, but back when he was in Daventry, raiding all those poor, stoned people's life savings, he didn't know he'll need to buy anything (let alone that he'll find an open shop, what with everyone turned to stone).
Face it, the guy's a raving klepto :P
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on August 25, 2006, 07:18:33 PM
I'm not sure taking gold from the dead is a crime. Ya the game describes everyone as being stone-dead... He could have just decided to live his life in Daventry and left everyone "dead". But no he decided to save everyone.

And a credit card is not the same as gold, since to use a credit card you would be commiting Identity fraud. A completely different crime. Not to mention the fact that money on a credit card does not belongs to the person owns the credit card but instead belongs to the credit company. The card owner just borrows the money from the credit company, and expects to be paid back.

There is no way to argue that Connor commited identity fraud.

Connor only took from four people, if you count Gwennie's father. Julia, Mr. Simms, and the head of the family in the swamp.

Ya he knew he needed gold by the time he got to Oracle(so that would explain him taking the gold from the apparently abandoned boarded up swamp shack and the family living in the other swamp shack).

Besides. He could have left the gold and ended up in a dead end in the game when he found he couldn't get past the locked door cause he couldn't afford the war hammer.  Or he would have been without the essence of Sun Tzu, forcing him to return to find more gold he left behind.

Remember the Magic Map and teleporters? That was to prevent being permanently stuck in the game, incase of running out of gold,  you could usually go back and find the needed gold. (unless the player wasted the money on some of the other things like putting too much in the church box for example).

Also Connor using gold to help the people out of their condition isn't much different in the real world where a Hospital can bleed someone's bank account dry in order to afford "healing" them, while they are unconcious and can't give their permission in the first place.

It can be argued he looted people's homes(granted non-living people), but so has Daventry's Royal Family over the years as well. It might be said that is standard practice for citizens of Daventry :p...
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: patrick83301 on August 25, 2006, 08:51:25 PM
Hmmmmm Those are all very well written and seeming passionate speeches. Thanks you guys and anyothers who may add opinions. It does shed a little light and like Louisiana kinda said I will need to finish the game. But as of now I'm leaning towards Connor is ok. XD
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Yonkey on August 26, 2006, 09:43:48 AM
Notwithstanding all said in this thread already, I think Connor would not have been so disliked if he were not connected to the KQ series or even adventure games. ;P  Many people like him in his own right, which is why I think the TSL Connor may turn out to be pretty cool once I see and hear him in-game.

You'll just have to wait and see, and this time I'll use the suffer on myself as well, since I haven't seen him yet either. :suffer:

XD
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Storm on August 26, 2006, 10:20:06 AM
as of now I'm leaning towards Connor is ok. XD

That's because you haven't played MOE yet :o
Though maybe you should just wait for TSL to come out, they say he'll be a lot more likable there ;)


And a credit card is not the same as gold, since to use a credit card you would be committing Identity fraud. A completely different crime. Not to mention the fact that money on a credit card does not belongs to the person owns the credit card but instead belongs to the credit company. The card owner just borrows the money from the credit company, and expects to be paid back.

There is no way to argue that Connor committed identity fraud.

I didn't say Connor was committing identity fraud... my point was to illustrate using someone else's money without their express permission is the same as stealing, credit card or no.


Besides. He could have left the gold and ended up in a dead end in the game when he found he couldn't get past the locked door cause he couldn't afford the war hammer.  Or he would have been without the essence of Sun Tzu, forcing him to return to find more gold he left behind.

Remember the Magic Map and teleporters? That was to prevent being permanently stuck in the game, incase of running out of gold,  you could usually go back and find the needed gold. (unless the player wasted the money on some of the other things like putting too much in the church box for example).

Sure, he CAN leave the gold behind and come back for it later. I don't know, maybe it's even possible to finish the game without taking that gold at all. But sometimes in adventure games, when the player character is ordered to do something completely illogical or that goes against their better judgment without knowning why it should be done first, they'd refuse and ask why on earth should they. The decent thing to do would be to refuse to take the gold till he was sure he really needed it. The fact that Connor doesn't refuse shows he has no problems stealing, even if he has no real need for it, which fits the Kleptomaniac definition perfectly.


Also Connor using gold to help the people out of their condition isn't much different in the real world where a Hospital can bleed someone's bank account dry in order to afford "healing" them, while they are unconcious and can't give their permission in the first place.

That's hardly a valid comparison! When a hospital admits a patient, it's obvious that the hospital is going to have certain costs like paying the doctors, nurses and the rest of the hospital staff, buying medicines and medical equipment etc. etc. so it has a valid claim for needing that money. When Connor sets out on his quest, he has no idea he's going to need any money.
Also, the fact that someone's unconscious doesn't really give the hospital free access to their bank accounts - the bank has to bill them (or their insurance) like it does everyone else.


It can be argued he looted people's homes(granted non-living people), but so has Daventry's Royal Family over the years as well. It might be said that is standard practice for citizens of Daventry :p...

Yeah, but when the Royals do it it's called "taxes" ;P
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Delling on August 26, 2006, 11:31:38 AM
 XD

seeing Rosella or Valanice taking down monsters with their 1337 skillz would have been very amusing

rofl

...sorry... just the idea of Rosella going amazon archeress on a bunch of abominable snow men seemed hilarious.

*regains composure*

I actuallly haven't played all of MoE. I begged my dad to get it as it was the next installment in KQ, and he gave the rather common argument that it just wouldn't be the same. At first, I thought, "It's KQ: it'll be fine." As I played as Connor and was left trying to do all the little combat things in Daventry, Connor just really got on my nerves... especially the jumping IIRC... Anyway, Connor and combat were the reasons I gave up on MoE... though I've recently been considering playing through it all the way.

I'm going to have to say "hate" Connor. Noble or not, he's as irritating as Chinese water torture.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on August 26, 2006, 12:46:29 PM
Quote
That's because you haven't played MOE yet
Though maybe you should just wait for TSL to come out, they say he'll be a lot more likable there


I've played through MOE about 3 times. I consider connor Ok, I like him. He's not the best character, but he's not hte worst either. There are so many things in the game that just scream king's quest to me.

But that's the thing Connor is either a character you like, or you don't like. You hate him, that's fine. But there are people that do like him.

Who knows how he'd feel if he had the chance to actually play it. Someone can't possibly actually have a valid feeling for something unless they have actually played through something, and can make their decision from experiance.

Quote
I didn't say Connor was committing identity fraud... my point was to illustrate using someone else's money without their express permission is the same as stealing, credit card or no.

Well a credit isn't actually money. So you made a very bad comparison.

 Also the question is does Connor do this on regular basis, if this was the first time he did it in his life, he would not be a kleptomaniac.

Kleptomania like any mental disorder is something that had to live with his whole life, the irrational taking anything they see and isn't nailed down. But there is no evidence he took things before the disaster to prove he has lived with kleptomania.

 Its a small town people would have noticed if things were disappearing before the events... There is no jail or stocks in Connor's village so it doesn't appear that they arrested anyone for stealing anything before hand. So it doesn't look like tere is any evidence of anyone with klepotmania syndrome in the village.

So its not likely he's actually got the disorder of kleptomania.

As for him choosing to take things during a disaster.

Well you have to remember you the player are the one actually making connor take the gold, so in reality that makes you the kleptomaniac. As connor offscreen concious you could have chosen not to take the gold. Granted you'll reach a dead in later in the game, if you don't have enough gold to pay for all the things needed in the swamp, Underground Realm of the Gnomes, and Barren region.

 The game is randomized so enemies don't always drop the same amount of gold, or any gold at all. So every time you play, its not like you as a player can expect to beat it with enemy loot alone. Thus why Roberta and the other designers put gold in all sorts of places, so you have enough to buy the required items.

Just because he took the gold doesn't mean he's a kleptomaniac though. Not unless he had suffered from stealing things from people's homes his entire life, and even after the events. Also the symptoms of kleptomaniacs is that they take more than just money.

Origin
Kleptomania is a strong desire to steal. Often a kleptomaniac person steals things he could have bought easily or things that are not at all expensive. The person steals just for the tension or the kick. Kleptomania can be the result of emotional shortcomings during the youth.

Symptoms
These patients have an irresistible inclination to steal. Often they throw away the stolen goods. They are mostly interested in the kick of the stealing itself. Although psychiatrists consider kleptomania as a disease, this is not a legal excuse in front of an American or British court.

Treatment
This disorder is rather easy to treat. It is important to find another occupation to replace the stealing activity. It is also very important to make the patient realize that others are harmed by the stealing activities.

Main Entry: klep·to·ma·nia
Pronunciation: "klep-t&-'mA-nE-&, -ny&
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin
: a persistent neurotic impulse to steal especially without economic motive


So yes you misused the term kleptomania... Your use of the term is quite incorrect...


Believe me disasters change alot of people. Its common practice for normal people who would not normally steal,  to break into people's homes, especially if it appears abandoned, or the people dead,  during a disaster to take food, clothing, and money, out of pure desperation.

They are called looters, does that make what they do right or wrong? Well often wrong, especially when they take things that will not actually help them survive(tvs, jewelry, computers, and other hardware).

Government will often turn a blind eye if its only looting of survival material, money, food, hygeine material and clothes.

It is considered a very different thing than the psychological klepotmania disorder. Since most of those people have never taken anything else in their lives.

Is it argued to be moral or immoral? Often its considered amoral when its only things that will help with survival. It depends on personal opinion.


Quote
That's hardly a valid comparison! When a hospital admits a patient, it's obvious that the hospital is going to have certain costs like paying the doctors, nurses and the rest of the hospital staff, buying medicines and medical equipment etc. etc. so it has a valid claim for needing that money. When Connor sets out on his quest, he has no idea he's going to need any money.
Also, the fact that someone's unconscious doesn't really give the hospital free access to their bank accounts - the bank has to bill them (or their insurance) like it does everyone else.

Actually in some places, Hospitals have the right to access a person's bank account if there is no one else to give the permission. Don't ask my the law in those locations allows it, but they do. Probably another one of those amoral civil issues...


Quote
"Yeah, but when the Royals do it it's called "taxes" "

Let's see the royal family often visit other lands other than daventry and break into private property and take things that are not theirs. That has nothing to do with taxes. You can't tax other people's nations, nor does taxes mean you walk into people's homes or their land without their permisison and just take anything that's not nailed down.

Its actually kind of funny, in King's Quest Companion, there is several paragraphs throughout the various novels where the characters think of ways to justify their stealing of people's goods, but they actually know they are ultimately stealing, LOL.

Quote
Notwithstanding all said in this thread already, I think Connor would not have been so disliked if he were not connected to the KQ series or even adventure games.   Many people like him in his own right, which is why I think the TSL Connor may turn out to be pretty cool once I see and hear him in-game.

I've played the game nearly 3 times. I've actually grown to like it, occasionally discovering something I missed on previous plays. There is enough in the game that it still feels very much like a King's Quest game to me (albeit a King's Quest game with new gameplay style tacked on)... Maybe opinions vary, and that's understandable. In alot of ways it reminds me of the first King's Quest though, ability to jump, treasure hunt plot line, random enemy encounters, "arcade sequences", etc.

It also reused plenty of ideas from previous King's Quest games for good or bad, in 3-d.

More Tile Puzzles(KQ6), another  realm of death ruled by another Lord of Death(KQ6), yet another volcano (KQ6, and KQ7), another icy mountain area ruled by yet another ice queen(KQ5), a another crystal dragon(KQ7), cartoon style animation(KQ7),  yet another swampy area(KQ4, KQ6, KQ7), etc.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: patrick83301 on August 26, 2006, 11:35:38 PM
Hey you forgot the KQ2 has a swampy area. HAHA Sorry I had to share my immense knowledge. HAHA Sorry ;D
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on August 27, 2006, 12:31:45 AM
Actually KQ2 official version doesn't have a swamp. Just a bunch of lakes, a forest, and an ocean.

KQ1 has a willow swamp area. But since it doesn't actually add much to the plot or have quests involved I left it out.

But ya my list was only for the official games, the ones that shared inspiration for Mask of Eternity.

Obviously the KQ2 remake did not inspire Mask of Eternity.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Storm on August 28, 2006, 04:13:04 PM
Quote
my point was to illustrate using someone else's money without their express permission is the same as stealing, credit card or no.
Well a credit isn't actually money. So you made a very bad comparison.

Call me dumb, but I just can't see how that's a bad comparison. A credit card is in many ways like money (especially in the way you can use both to pay for things), and at any rate, it doesn't have to be anything like money to prove my point - it is enough that both are used without their owner's permission ::)


Also the question is does Connor do this on regular basis, if this was the first time he did it in his life, he would not be a kleptomaniac.

Kleptomania like any mental disorder is something that had to live with his whole life, the irrational taking anything they see and isn't nailed down. But there is no evidence he took things before the disaster to prove he has lived with kleptomania.

 Its a small town people would have noticed if things were disappearing before the events... There is no jail or stocks in Connor's village so it doesn't appear that they arrested anyone for stealing anything before hand. So it doesn't look like tere is any evidence of anyone with klepotmania syndrome in the village.

So its not likely he's actually got the disorder of kleptomania.

As for him choosing to take things during a disaster.

Well you have to remember you the player are the one actually making connor take the gold, so in reality that makes you the kleptomaniac. As connor offscreen concious you could have chosen not to take the gold. Granted you'll reach a dead in later in the game, if you don't have enough gold to pay for all the things needed in the swamp, Underground Realm of the Gnomes, and Barren region.

 The game is randomized so enemies don't always drop the same amount of gold, or any gold at all. So every time you play, its not like you as a player can expect to beat it with enemy loot alone. Thus why Roberta and the other designers put gold in all sorts of places, so you have enough to buy the required items.

Just because he took the gold doesn't mean he's a kleptomaniac though. Not unless he had suffered from stealing things from people's homes his entire life, and even after the events. Also the symptoms of kleptomaniacs is that they take more than just money.

Origin
Kleptomania is a strong desire to steal. Often a kleptomaniac person steals things he could have bought easily or things that are not at all expensive. The person steals just for the tension or the kick. Kleptomania can be the result of emotional shortcomings during the youth.

Symptoms
These patients have an irresistible inclination to steal. Often they throw away the stolen goods. They are mostly interested in the kick of the stealing itself. Although psychiatrists consider kleptomania as a disease, this is not a legal excuse in front of an American or British court.

Treatment
This disorder is rather easy to treat. It is important to find another occupation to replace the stealing activity. It is also very important to make the patient realize that others are harmed by the stealing activities.

Main Entry: klep·to·ma·nia
Pronunciation: "klep-t&-'mA-nE-&, -ny&
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin
: a persistent neurotic impulse to steal especially without economic motive


So yes you misused the term kleptomania... Your use of the term is quite incorrect...


Believe me disasters change alot of people. Its common practice for normal people who would not normally steal,  to break into people's homes, especially if it appears abandoned, or the people dead,  during a disaster to take food, clothing, and money, out of pure desperation.

They are called looters, does that make what they do right or wrong? Well often wrong, especially when they take things that will not actually help them survive(tvs, jewelry, computers, and other hardware).

Government will often turn a blind eye if its only looting of survival material, money, food, hygeine material and clothes.

It is considered a very different thing than the psychological klepotmania disorder. Since most of those people have never taken anything else in their lives.

Is it argued to be moral or immoral? Often its considered amoral when its only things that will help with survival. It depends on personal opinion.

Wow, I've seen people kill jokes before, but none quite as efficiently *removes hat*


Actually in some places, Hospitals have the right to access a person's bank account if there is no one else to give the permission. Don't ask my the law in those locations allows it, but they do. Probably another one of those amoral civil issues...

I wonder what countries allow this :S In my country at least, the most a hospital can do is sue the patient and have the bank account seized in its favor. A hospital is just the same as any other creditor - the fact someone owes it money doesn't mean it has the right access their bank account.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: patrick83301 on August 28, 2006, 04:55:12 PM

Wow, I've seen people kill jokes before, but none quite as efficiently *removes hat*
HAHAHAHAHA Sorry.
I think I have nothing against Connor but I do hate MoE. But that could be because I have grown accustomed to the graphics and options of today's games. 
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 28, 2006, 07:30:11 PM
I have to admit when I first read the title of this thread I did it with a slightly differant emphasis.   :raf:  Since I've never played MoE either my opinion doesn't count for much but I'll add it in case it helps somebody.  From what I have heard, Connor didn't do anything worse that stealing mother bear's thimble in KQ3 or other things the royal family has done.  I see no reason to hate him in particular, whatever MoE may have done.  :)

 EDIT

  Uhhh, is there a reason this place censors K Q 8.  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on August 28, 2006, 08:31:30 PM
Quote
Call me dumb, but I just can't see how that's a bad comparison. A credit card is in many ways like money (especially in the way you can use both to pay for things), and at any rate, it doesn't have to be anything like money to prove my point - it is enough that both are used without their owner's permission 

The big difference is because credit card isn't money, it is just a worthless piece of plastic used to access money owned by a bank or credit company. The person with the card actually borrows from the bank or credit company, and doesn't actually own the money.

Plus to even use a credit card you need an ID of some sort to prove who you are.

Money on the other hand can be used by anyone and its physical and belongs to the person with the money. You do not have to prove who you are to use the money.

If the daughter of someone in real life had actually gave her injured father's money and I mean Cash, legal tender, not just some bank's credit card(which is actually just a worthless piece of plastic with some bank or creditor behind it), in order to save her parent's life, it would not be viewed as wrong.

Believe me in many cases if someone is injured or dieing if the daughter gave permission to use parent's money(that is cash) if there was no other way to save the person the law would not view it as wrong. Its an amoral issue, neither immoral or moral. Some people might view it as  good moral thing to do since life is more important than letting someone die, because there was no other way to save them.

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thimble in KQ3 or other things the royal family has done. 


Yep, among the things Alexander stole in KQ3, was baby bears food, he vandalized baby bear's chair, and he stole mother bear's thimble.

He also stole from his evil master, Manannan. Two wrongs do not make a right.

He also stole from the pirates, two wrongs do not make a right.

King Graham has stole Chicken Soup from a thieving dwarf, as well as one of the saphire jewels. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Instead of trying to find out who the Jewels belonged to he gave them to his wife as a wedding present.

Graham robbed food from the robbers in Serenia. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Rosella stole diamonds from the Dwarve's home without first asking the dwarfs if she could take them. She could have left them in the house, and asked the dwarves about them, rather than taking them, and then asking about them. Like Connor she "intended" to return them however. Because she did she was forgiven and even allowed to keep them.

Graham stole the Leprechaun King's royal Sceptor. The king may have stolen the shield(or at least given the shield by someone else), but two wrongs do not make a right.

Alexander kidnaps the Hole in the Wall and leaves him trapped in the catacombs. He also kidnaps the Rotten Tomato and gets him tossed into the swamp.

Alexander makes babies cry...

Alexander kicking the cat...

Alexander steals the druids sycle from the druids village without permission.

Valanice takes several things that do not belong to her from people in Falderal without permission.

Plus the many times they have broken and entered into people's homes without permission.

Etc, Etc. I shouldn't have to bring up every thing that royal family has stolen, as well as breaking and entering, as well the partially mean acts they have commited over the years(kidnapping and breaking and entering).

The royal family's habit of taking things that do not belong to them is repeated many times in the history.

 Infact stealing random things seems to run in the family's blood line, one of King Graham's father, Sir Hereward's famous sayings was to;

"Pick up anything that is not nailed down. If it is nailed down, look for loose nails or boards. Check carefully into, under, above, below, and behind things."

Hereward passed that on this son, and he passed that saying on his children and wife.

If anything a psychiastrist could probably have a field day analyzing his family, and the family motto.

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Uhhh, is there a reason this place censors K Q 8.   


Well at least in the american market the game was not actually listed as MoE in the title, only KQ:MOE. There was a sticker that pointed out it was the VIII installment of the series though.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: patrick83301 on August 28, 2006, 09:15:08 PM
King Graham has stole Chicken Soup from a thieving dwarf, as well as one of the saphire jewels. Two wrongs do not make a right.

But Graham was asked to return it from the drawf to the grandmother and hooded girl from whom the soup was stole from at first.
(Did that grammar make sense ??? ;D)
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on August 28, 2006, 09:23:16 PM
Quote
But Graham was asked to return it from the drawf to the grandmother and hooded girl from whom the soup was stole from at first.

Actually in original KQ2 and Roberta's version of the story, the chicken soup belonged to the Dwarf it did not belong to grandmother. The dwarf had not stolen it from anyone, and it was just his dinner he had been preparing.

So yes Graham broke and entered into dwarf's home and stole the Chicken Soup and one part of the Saphire jewels set that the thief had. Graham justifies stealing the soup and jewelry according to the King's Quest companion, because the dwarf had originally robbed him(robbed him of stuff he had "found" while in kolyma), so he was just "getting even". But two wrongs do not make a right.

In Roberta's version of the story, the Basket of goodies was stolen from Little Red Riding Hood, and someone was nice enough to return it to Grandma's mailbox where Graham found it.



Do I have to remind people that the story in the unofficial KQ2 remake is nothing like the story in Roberta William's version of the story in the original game, or the official King's Quest companion adaptation?

Probably about 60% of material in the unofficial version is different than anything that happened in the original version.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: patrick83301 on August 28, 2006, 09:28:01 PM
Sorry I will concede all arguments to you my bad I get the two mixed up. :'(
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on August 28, 2006, 09:29:37 PM
No problem. I assume some people assume the unofficial version is what happened since maybe they haven't played the original?

You know, I remember reading a rather funny article on rpg and adventure games that brought up the point that nearly every rpg and adventure game hero has some sort of petty thievery or klepto tendencies. They often enter homes without permission, raid people's chests or belongings without permission, and then leave. Later they often lose or destroy the items they stole without any financial gain.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: patrick83301 on August 28, 2006, 09:40:30 PM
Nope, I have played the original but its been a long time ago for me. So that is why I mixed it up plus my bro told me they changed some of the stuff in the new version and Didn't complete talking with me after we played it about which parts were changed and new and which weren't haha oh well my bad.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Say on August 31, 2006, 10:56:31 AM
Maybe Patrick should look into Storm's old rants :P
She was QUITE... explicit about her feelings towards Connor in one too many old threads :P

Meaning, she was nice in those comments I read from her in this thread, lol. Oh, good old days :P
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Storm on September 01, 2006, 04:40:03 PM
...credit card isn't money, it is just a worthless piece of plastic used to access money owned by a bank or credit company. The person with the card actually borrows from the bank or credit company, and doesn't actually own the money.

No kidding? and there I thought the grocer was giving me all those things just for the pleasure of handling my little piece of plastic. Nuts :P


Maybe Patrick should look into Storm's old rants :P
She was QUITE... explicit about her feelings towards Connor in one too many old threads :P

Meaning, she was nice in those comments I read from her in this thread, lol. Oh, good old days :P

Yeah, I've grown soft in my old age...
Plus, I got really fed up with those 'can you seperate the character from the game' debates. As far as I'm concerned, he's a bad character in a bad game, and I don't see why some people bend over backwards to try and 'redeem' him ::)

And I'll conclude with this:

Conner's my hero...I just love the way he jumps and jogs while sprouting a jaggedly-polygonal butt...and thrusting his sword in the air like he just doesn't care...he doesn't acknowledge walls or solid objects either, damn right Conner doesn't fear clipping...bow down to the almighty master of adventurous disaster, the killer of a once glorious game saga thriller, the bearer of a crown who struts like a clown as I sit here and hope in KQ9 he will drown...your favorite and mine, he's one of a kind, Conner by name, MOE b!tch by fame, all on your knees and pray, that Conner will come save the day...or at least die swiftly and forever dead shall he stay

That just cracks me up every time XB
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Louisiana Night on September 03, 2006, 10:41:12 PM
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nd I don't see why some people bend over backwards to try and 'redeem' him

For it is a worthy cause... that, and you should know by now that everyone in here is crazy(no matter which "side" you're on, the conversation/arguement itself is insane XB). :P

  Uhhh, is there a reason this place censors K Q 8.  ;D  ;D

Storm deemed it to be so(or, to be more accurate, it was used to save newbies from Storm's wrath XB), like the TSL Encyclopedia... thing, says. :P

*has no idea what the final name was* ;P
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on September 03, 2006, 11:39:58 PM
Quote
and I don't see why some people bend over backwards to try and 'redeem' him


....I don't see why people try to bend over backwards to redeem the Royal Family, either. They have had many more Games than Connor to prove how much petty crimes and animal abuse they commit.

I like them, but I you can't really justify all the crimes they have commited without being a hypocrite in relation to argueing against Connor (since he has done alot less than they have done, considering he just doesn't have the onscreen time that they have had).

Also I find it rather surprising dispite people arguing that the game was bad(sure they are welcome to their personal opinions), I've found just as many reviews from people that actually enjoyed the game.

It received at least 7 or higher in many reviews of the day from what I recall. It was considered somewhat smarter game than most of hte other action games released at the time. Granted it also got poor reviews as well. Magazine reviewers were often split down the middle of those that loved it, and those that hated it. Since itw as a multi-genre hybrid, it got reviews from more than just adventure game reviewers, which also split the numbers a bit as well.

I also recall it actually sold as well as the previous King's Quest games in the series in that it was bought by most King's Quest fans, or other Sierra game fans, simply because of its name, and company that was stampe don it.

Unfortunetly the company wanted it to sell much more than any previous King's Quest game, so it didn't meet their projected numbers they wanted. Plus it cost more to make than any previous game in the series, so it lost money. So what was considere poor sales would have been considered excellent sells in earlier years but was simply not enough for  the requirements of the day.

But the fact remains that there are people that enjoy the game, and at least tolerate the character or even like him.

Its also kind of interesting fact, but MOE was one of the top selling adventure games in 2001, number 16 out of like 50-60 adventure games still on the market that year.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: racx_00 on September 04, 2006, 02:29:29 AM
Conner's my hero...I just love the way he jumps and jogs while sprouting a jaggedly-polygonal butt...and thrusting his sword in the air like he just doesn't care...he doesn't acknowledge walls or solid objects either, damn right Conner doesn't fear clipping...bow down to the almighty master of adventurous disaster, the killer of a once glorious game saga thriller, the bearer of a crown who struts like a clown as I sit here and hope in KQ9 he will drown...your favorite and mine, he's one of a kind, Conner by name, MOE b!tch by fame, all on your knees and pray, that Conner will come save the day...or at least die swiftly and forever dead shall he stay
I do love that, even though I support Connor.

As for MoE when I bought it and brought it home to play I'll admit I felt ripped off because it wasn't like the usual KQ game. They should have given some kinda warning to it. :-\
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on September 04, 2006, 09:24:23 AM
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They should have given some kinda warning to it."

Let's see the back of hte box said;

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"Master Storyteller Roberta Williams brings her best-selling King's Quest series into the next millenium with a revolutionary blend of technology, gameplay, and storytelling. Long time King's Quest Fans, and 3D action gamers  alike will revel in a universe teeming with mythical monsters, magic elixirs, and hand to hand combat! Never before has action been so intelligent or exploration so intensely thrilling."

Obviously that should have been enough of a warning to any one that can't stomach any form of action adventure...

Granted its honest in the part that it is overally more intelligent than most action games(of its day of course). Most action games especially at the time the game was made do not involve puzzle solving, inventory puzzles, or the like. Hell she even bothered to involve hand weapons in solving certain puzzles (unless you count the secondary item menu in Zelda games). That is you had to actually get certain weapons in order to progress past certain barriers. I.E. Azriel's hammer in order to lower the bridge over River of Death, the Bow and Arrows in order to shoot the rope holding the front gate closed int he witch's tower. Warhammer in order to break the lock on a door in the underground realm of the gnomes, etc. That is to say they were more intelligent use for weapons than just bashing in some monster's skull.

Granted in some cases you had to get special weapons in order to bash in monsters that were invincible to any other weapon. Black diamond spear for the basilisk, and flame sword for the two-headed dragon for example. Granted for the case of the basilisk you don't actually fight the dragon, but beating it involves a so called "climbing puzzle".
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: racx_00 on September 04, 2006, 09:36:40 AM
Firstly I was 10 at the time and secondly I got it as birthday present. So I never got to read the back of the box and find out that it was nothing like previous installments.

I can stomach action adventure but the game scared me to death at that age, and in my opinion it's a bad action adventure game.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on September 04, 2006, 09:46:53 AM
Well the front of the box also had a comment saying it was a hybrid of 3-d action games and adventure. That too should have been a warning. Even the screenshots on the box of him battling monsters should have been a warning. That's even before you get to the manual that has huge sections talking about hte Action elements.

If you didn't bother to read the box or have the box read to you, well its your fault or the fault of your parents that you didn't get your "warning".

Besides the fact that all the magazines at the time were talking about the action game elements, and showed pictures of him battling monsters.

As for age recommendation warnings it was rated "Teen" on the box, which is 13+. That also certainly should have been a warning to your parents if you were only 10. A game rated at teen is viewed as too intense by ESRB for anyone under 13.

As for my opinion it was one of best action adventure games of its time. Its dated by today's standards, but when it was released it was better than most of the crap action adventures out there.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: racx_00 on September 04, 2006, 09:57:50 AM
Like I said I didn't get to see the box it was a surprise birthday present, like most birthday presents are. As for the rating it wasn't teen over here.

At that age I had no money either so I wasn't exactly checking magazines for it.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on September 04, 2006, 09:59:17 AM
So its more the fault of your parents and your country, and not necessarily the fault of Sierra.

Because in the US there were more than enough warnings posted.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: racx_00 on September 04, 2006, 10:00:39 AM
I was never blaming Sierra, or anyone for that matter.

Just stating that in my opinion they didn't give enough warnings.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on September 04, 2006, 10:02:46 AM
Ahh, well you said "they" should have given a warning of some sort. I guess you weren't specific as to who "they" was. But obviously there were warnings that someone should have been able to read and tell you about. There were more than enough warnings...

The box is always the advertisement that tells about the content of the game inside, it warns anyone who may not be interested in certain types of content.

Also when I get surprise birthday presents the presents are still usually in the box, just wrapped in paper. So I could still read what was on the box if I cared to. So if your parents tossed the box away, and just gave you the disks? Well they tossed your warnings away apparently, obviously they didn't bother to read what was on the box...

Of course the manual has plenty of "warning" of the content of hte game as well. But let me guess they tossed the manual away as well?
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: racx_00 on September 04, 2006, 10:14:49 AM
I have the box and manual thank you very much. As for parents I only have a mother so stop saying parents.

I just tried to say my opinion without starting any trouble, but unfortunately it seems as though I have annoyed you. I'm sorry if I have but seriously just calm down.

I'm not going to continue to argue with you any further because I'm not in the mood to start a fight.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on September 04, 2006, 10:16:43 AM
I'm not annoyed at all. I just enjoy debate. I find pointing out flaws in illogical elements in someone's arguement interesting, at least pointing it out makes sure no one else is influenced by false information. Infact there is probably little emotion to my actual debating skill.

So you admit you have the box and manual, and yet you didn't bother to look at the box and manual before you played the game?

The fact that it was a surprise gift shouldn't have kept you from at least looking at the pictures on the box... especially while you waited for the game to install. Because the box and manual are loaded with "warnings" about the action content.

...or did your parent have the game already installed for you, and gave you the box and manual later? In anycase your parent should have paid more attention to the box, if she knew that, that kind of content was too much for you at your age. Apparently they added a rating label in the second release of the game there, back in 1998 as well from reviews I've read.

Now if you had left things at, "I didn't enjoy the game, it was 'boring" or too violent for me". That's an opinion. opinion's can't be debated. I can't make you like or dislike a game.

However you left a hole wide open for debate when you said "they should have given warnings". That's not an opinion, that's a completely debatable inconsistency in your arguement, that is easy to point out.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Rosella on September 04, 2006, 11:54:00 AM
Baggins, your debating and "pointing out inconsistancies" is bordering on starting a flame war. You've made your point many times, and Jason doesn't seem inclined to continue this. I suggest you get back to the topic of Connor, not whether Jason read MoE's box or not.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: patrick83301 on September 04, 2006, 12:16:27 PM
Thank you all who have posted here and presented your thoughts and concerns. MoE is a good game just not a good KQ game. Connor stinks but htat can't be helped he has no possible way to change himself it was how he was made by Sierra. Plus as I have read through all of this the thread seems to be turning into a thread where you poke at each other not Connor. So if it will be like this I ask Rosella to lock it up or do whatever to make it so no one can post here, if the poking continues. Please poke all you want at Connor. And people PLEASE remeber that where you live is NOTHING like where someone else live. I.E. I Live in Idaho, and trust me it is NOTHING like California. So there is a little example. Country's are way different than just states in the USA. Thank you all and please try to be nice to each other and not bite each others heads off.
Thank you,
Patrick
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Baggins on September 04, 2006, 12:30:39 PM
Sorry, Rosella, my point was not to bite off his head or flame him. But rather to just point out his misinformed claim, just so that other people aren't influenced by false information, I.E. warnings were actually printed or even on the official website, even if he missed them (that includes Australia as well, though the first release did have everything but the rating label).

But yes back to the discussion of Connor;

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Connor stinks but htat can't be helped he has no possible way to change himself it was how he was made by Sierra.

Well that's where we disagree. I respect your opinion, however I don't think he stinks. I found him to be a noble individual. I saw alot of KQ6 Alexander style, characterization in him. That being said he had alot of interesting things to say (not counting the warning if you were too far to reach something). Unfortunately, many of the other characters would not speak to him long, and would often cut him off, to tell him to hurry up and save the world. 

So I wouldn't question Connor's character but all the weird freaks he ran into that wouldn't give him straight answers to his questions. But instead seemed to always speak in riddles, or make refrences to the prophecies that he was fated to fulfill.

I found the fact that he had been prophecied by name several millenia before the events of the game to be interesting as well, and the message he finds from the long dead Prophet Hector written specifically to him was interesting.

Speaking of his voice, his english accent was similar to Alexander's accent in KQ6 in a way imo, though his voice was quite a bit deeper, and accent a bit stronger.

Alexander didn't have any accent in KQ5 as I recall, btw.

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MoE is a good game just not a good KQ game
Well I don't quite agree. I don't think its a "bad KQ", I think it is actually a good KQ game, it just isn't the best KQ game, there are several other games in the series that are much better than it. However it still had enough in it that it still felt like King's Quest to me, and I enjoyed the game.

Unfortunately it could have been an even better King's Quest game, but unfortunately so much was cut because the company in charge of Sierra at the time, Havas Interactive wanted to get the game out as early as possible, and on time, before some great ideas were finished, see here (http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/King%27s_Quest_VIII#Early_Concepts).

Note while parts of many of the lost ideas had material completed, many were removed last minute, since puzzles or voice overs hadn't been completed for those sequences.
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: racx_00 on September 05, 2006, 06:56:01 AM
Ok, I was going to stop but I feel inclined to reply seeing that you keep editing your posts further.

I never said I had a problem with the action element, I am a fan of action games and was back at that age. What scared me was where you start off in Daventry with the enemies jumping out at ya. After Daventry I was fine with it and went on to pass the game.

It was not the whole violence factor that I wanted them to have warned about because I have no problem with violence. I wish they had have warned how little it had in common with previous King's Quest games.

I was expecting to have a common KQ game with fighting elements, I got the fighting elements but I didn't really get the KQ feel. That is my opinion.

Also on the front and side of the box it clearly states "3D Adventure".
Title: Re: Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?
Post by: Louisiana Night on September 05, 2006, 01:07:06 PM
A small warning to both of you... I am not as nice as Kelsey(and I AM willing to use the delete button if this continues). ;P

I will not be giving any further warning, so "play nice."