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The Royal Archives => Asylum Archives => Topic started by: Petra Rocks on August 30, 2006, 04:25:53 PM

Title: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 30, 2006, 04:25:53 PM
I was rereading the life expectancy in Daventry thread, and of course most of the talk came back to standard of living.  It struck me that the way to determine that was to see the amount of goods in the houses you go in.  I've been in a number of reproductions of houses in the 17thc, 18thc and the 1870's, and the difference is remarkable.  The poor woodcutter in KQ1 (recall I've played only remakes) looks very much like the earlier, poorer periods.  The castle is more ambitious but it's elite.  Ditto Dracula's place.  The multi-room structures in the town in KQII+ look more like 18thc or later buildings.  So my question to you all is, are  do most other houses you enter in quests looks sparsly furnished with one or two rooms, or are there non-elite houses with multiple rooms and finishings?

 You may now return to your regularly scheduled oddness.  ;D
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2006, 04:35:19 PM
Well homes in Tamir range from 1800 style fishing shanty up to victorian style mansion.

Though the Ogre Family has a stone house with a straw roof, and more modest furnishings.

The antique shop, and home of the old lady in Kolyma actually looks fairly modern compared to other KQ standards even showing alot of glass, it even looks as if she might have an electric lamp, and even a old fashioned steam heater grill;

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/thumb/d/d6/KQ2antiqueshop.PNG/741px-
KQ2antiqueshop.PNG)

As for the official Dracula's Castle;

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/thumb/5/55/KQ2draculacastle.PNG/800px-KQ2draculacastle.PNG)

The Monastery of the Blessed Wilbury(where Graham and Valanice were married) has the spanish mission look to it;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/thumb/4/46/Blessedwilbury.PNG/800px-Blessedwilbury.PNG)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on August 30, 2006, 04:38:59 PM
If a room was cluttered with furniture, it wouldn't be very accessible. :P
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2006, 04:55:52 PM
In the swamp near Daventry were rather poor swamp shacks made of boards and thatched roofs;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/5/56/Swampshacks.JPG)

Connor's house is representive of architecture seen in his village;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/2/2f/ConnorHouse.JPG)
As does Sarah's and the Simm's houses;

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/0/05/Sarah%27s_House.JPG)

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/0/0d/Farmersimmshouse.JPG)

Most of the houses in Connor's village are small 1-2 room buildings, sparsely furnished. If you are interested I have made very thorough descriptions in the Omnipedia of every building in Connor's Village and that section of Daventry, as well as screenshots of their outsides.

Houses in Ooga Booga also seem to show victorian style architecture.

However houses in Falderal tend to go more towards french baroque period, though whimsical and exaggerated.
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 30, 2006, 05:38:57 PM
  Woot!  Thanks for bringing up those screenshots, you are really too kind.  :)

 Unfortunatly, I can't tell much from the outside.  :-\  1-2 rooms indicates poverty on part of the owner of course, though the furnishings (eg presance of carpet, lighting,writing materials etc) say much more than a simple room number.  After all apartments now don't have much more than that.  ;)  Glass is normally not something you would see until first industrial revolution tech levels or later, but I can't tell if those windoes actually have glass in them.  :-\

 From the inside of old ladies house I would be inclined to say they are quite rich.  Unless the dirt is dyed blue  ;D she has carpet all over the floor, not somthing you would see in the dark ages.  Ditto paintings on the walls, I am pretty sure your average serf wouldn't have that. The fancy light fixtures (a lot more fancy than a pine knot, even if they are not electric) and the glass clinch the matter. If a poor old lady has this, then by one means or another living standards seem to be pretty high.   

  Thanks, Baggins you've been most helpful yet again.  :)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2006, 05:46:53 PM
Well certainly the living standards in Kolyma seem to be a alot higher than in Daventry.

While we can't see into the rest of the Old Lady's Antique Shop, we at least know she must be doing well based on all the stuff she has for sale and furniture in the front room. The building obviously has glass based on the fact that their is a sign in the front window resting against the glass ;).

Even Grandma's house seems to have late 19th, early 20th century furnishings.

But ya as I mentioned its hard to get screenshots of the inside of houses in MOE without actually taking several shots by facing in different directions. However, I have thorough descriptions for them in the Omnipedia. But I'd rather not directly quote from the articles in this thread... They are rather long.

But you can find the articles here (http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Category:MoE).

Essentially most of the houses in Connor's village are 1-2 rooms, have a bed or two, one table, maybe some chairs and a fireplace. Not much else. They are rather spartan, and the middle ages look to them(no apparent technology).

Granted we know that people in Daventry have mastered at least the water pump as far as technology goes. As well as grinding mill, and water wheel.

(http://www.heavenfarm.co.uk/water%20pump.JPG)

Woodcutter has one outside his house, and Connor finds one in the Swamp. Also depending on which version of King's Quest 1 you play, you can also see a kitchen sink in Woodcutter's home. There is also a fountain in Connor's Village that sprays out water.

Granted the lack of technology in Daventry is actually somewhat by choice, as people of Daventry have a fear of science and technology. Seeing as it as antithesis to magic and the natural world, and what drove them out of their original world in the first place. They despise machinery for the most part seeing it as a form of evil.

I hope to add more shots of the insides of houses and buildings from KQ games to the omnipedia at some point. But at alas my college semester has started...
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 30, 2006, 06:04:20 PM
  Please don't feel obliged to chase things down for me, I don't want to run you ragged on what is after all just an idle curiosity on my part.  :) I'd much rather you stayed well rested and on top of things than get worn down for my sake.  :)

  It is interesting though.  I wonder if Daventry changes much in material wealth over area.  Like the Marsh Arabs near Baghdad in 1970's Iraq.  If Kolyma is really a lot richer than Daventry you would have expected it to conquer Daventry, though one might argue that is what the magic treasures are for.  ;D
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2006, 06:09:36 PM
Well Kolyma exists on another continent;


(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/7/7c/Worlddaventry.JPG)

Most citizens actually live on east side of the mountains, a place that cannot be visited during the game. We don't actually know how the people in that half of the continent live though.

Western Kolyma is actually quite a bit more remote than eastern Kolyma apparently, few people live there. Especially since the undead exist in that part of Kolyma. The only way to travel between the two sections of the continent is with use of the right key in the magical doorway.

Though Old Lady apparently still gets customers from somewhere.

Luckily the undead can't escape that part of kolyma as the high mountains to the east, and the ocean(ruled by Neptune) to the west, and the Magical Law of "Containment" (http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Great_strangeness) keep them contained.

As for Daventry it might be important to point out that standard currency in Daventry is gold coins(likely thanks to the Chest of Gold). Though they do have a copper coin as well (at least one version imprinted with the face of Valanice and one with Graham's face, or both).

Gold is apparently rare in other nations though, it would seem that Daventry may hold a monopoly on the precious metal. As King's Quest companion repeatedly points out that Castle Daventry has never had much of a need for money, because of the chest, and they can fund anything that is important.

Though as is pointed out in See No Weevil they don't like tossing the money around too much. As the the castle Seneschal Oswald complains when Rosella hires merchants, and carpenters outside of the castle to supply the food, drink, and entertainment and to clean up the festival  and to clean up the festival grounds for the Harvest Festival.

Its something that apparently costs far more than just using the castle musicians and staff. The Castle wouldn't normally hire outside of the already payed staff.
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 30, 2006, 06:24:53 PM
 That's why I hoped to see the level of prosperity by the amount of consumer goods in the houses.  If the means of production are magical,  we may not be able to see them but they should still make the people healthy, wealthy and wise, so to speak.  :)  Gristmills of one sort or another are as old as farming (though the oldest are just a couple of rocks), and coins were invented in Lydia when Hector was a pup, so to speak.  Waterwheels came later though.


 And cross-continental invasion is not impossible with low techs levels.  Just ask anyone from Carthage or the nearest Aztec.  ;)   Of course if Neptune rules the ocean and Neptune is a pacifist that pretty much kills that idea.  ;D
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2006, 06:34:39 PM
Yes a grinding meal is old technology. The kind used in daventry is the sort with a water wheel turning two stone wheels. That kind itself has been used for a long time.

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/b/b9/Grindingmill.JPG)

I didn't say it was impossible just that we don't know how manhy people actually live in Kolyma. Any invasion would have to come from eastern Kolyma, if an invasion was to occur. We certainly don't know how many live there.

There are not enough people in western Kolyma to take over a nation as large as Daventry. Just a few monks, an old lady, Grandma, big bad wolf, Little Red riding hood, Hagatha, a Dwarf, and who knows how many undead... But certainly not enough to make invasion plans. Especially with Neptune preventing the vampires by leaving by sea.

Daventry is also protected by invasions by use of its Magic Shield. As long as the enemy isn't some kind of magical creature such as a three-headed dragon, or magical tempests turning everyone to stone, or powerful wizards like Mordack, or Telgrin.

Any nations that would try to attempt to take over Daventry would have to go through the local countries around the nation first. Consequently the other nations put up walls around Daventry when the dragon reached it, so that it wouldn't leave the country and damage their lands further.

Daventry in all of the games other than MOE, is shown to be in a valley in mountainous region towards the middle of the continent. So it's location is actually kind of remote, except to other countries nearby it, living in similar circumstances.

Apparently for Daventry to even reach its fleet it would have to travel through other nations, though perhaps it can access the sea by river.

In MOE somehow Castle Daventry arose on top of a mountain, and half the continent is shaved off placing it closer to western sea. But as Derek Karlavaegen explains things, the world is always reinventing itself and is in some kind of magical flux. The strange changes could be other changes caused by the catclysm but who knows.


Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 30, 2006, 06:48:24 PM
If that part of the country is sparsly populated that would do it.  This is getting a little beside the point anyway.  ;) 

 Water wheels are as old as farming, but were not used much until the Middle Ages IIRC.  They are still used now, though not that little wooden kind.  ;)  Again, from what I have seen I would be thinking that these people have a reasonably high living standard, though the descriptions of Connor's village has me rethinking that.  Some kind of Marsh Arab or colonial situation would be the things that springs to mind at first, unless that old lady was secretly a noblewoman or something. Either that or Kolyma's magic makes people richer than those in Daventry's somehow.

  And as an aside, if poor Roberta could see us now she would probably be stunned you could read so much into her writings.   ;D  Either that or thinking I should get a life.  ::)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2006, 06:53:44 PM
The way of living in Connor's Village, which is a small farming community apparently outside of Daventry proper, is comparable to life in Village/Town of Daventry.

The town of Daventry as mentioned in King's Quest Novels,  is the town nearest to Castle Daventry, and Daventry's largest population center. It has purely medieval way of life.

So Connor's Village appears represent standard living of people in the kingdom.

Life in the Castle Daventry  isn't much different, of course. As it is a fairly drafty castle, though they do live better than most people in town.
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 30, 2006, 07:02:20 PM
I see.  I wonder why it would be so differant in Kolyma?  If its location remote maybe trade is limited, like the 18thc highlands or something.   Anyway that does seem to put Daventry in the pre-industrial area.  Which also says it's life-expectancy pretty well.   :)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2006, 07:14:45 PM
Graham was considered an old man at age 42 in King's Quest 4, :).
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 30, 2006, 07:26:34 PM
That would certainly indicate a low level of effective medical technology. In Afghanistan for example life expectancy is 43, in Botswana 33, and in Canada 80.  So an old man at 42 probably indicates something closer to the first two nations than the last.  :)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2006, 07:31:14 PM
He may actually be living on borrowed time at this point, thanks to the magic fruit... The intent for him in MOE was that he was absolutely aged (unspecified amount of time has passed since KQ7, at least a decade), thus the reason why he had white hair in that game. Aged almost to end of his life, but not dead yet.
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 30, 2006, 07:34:16 PM
 So Daventry may look a lot like Botswana eh?  ;D Either that or all that walking out into the unknown without anything is catching up with him.  ;)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2006, 07:42:26 PM
Hah Hah.

Granted we also have to figure in the fact that loss of his son, near loss of his daughter, and the shock of his returning children further weakened his already deteriorating heart, ;).
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on August 30, 2006, 08:58:24 PM
Actually, it wasn't the magic fruit, nor Rosella which defined Graham's fate.  If he had not suffered the heart attack at the beginning of KQ4, Rosella would not have ventured on her perils to begin with (nor would she have to deal with Lolotte XD).  But the question is, why would Roberta start KQ4 off with a heart attack?  You could ask Roberta, but chances are, you won't get an answer. ;P

Anyway, this magic fruit not only saved Graham from death, it made him strong enough to become our lead in Shadows. 8)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2006, 09:22:17 PM
Quote
But the question is, why would Roberta start KQ4 off with a heart attack?

Well Roberta once answered that question, I think the anecdote is in the Roberta William's Collection. She said she wanted KQ4 to start off with something darker than previous games. Something tragic, that would pull on people's emotions.

She showed the intro movie to a crowd at what the equivalent to E3 at the time and it worked. The journalists cried.

The reason how he had got a heart attack is explained in the King's Quest companion, and in the intro. A little of old age, and a little of hardship of as he believed he had lost all of his heirs, and the shock of getting them back. Plus some guilt from having to take his daughter to the dragon.

If Alexander has not shown up to save Rosella, its possible Graham might have had the heart attack anyways and he would have had no one to save him.
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on August 30, 2006, 10:37:17 PM
If Alexander has not shown up to save Rosella, its possible Graham might have had the heart attack anyways and he would have had no one to save him.
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same things here. :P  Alexander and Rosella are two separate individuals, and Alex wasn't involved with the heart attack. ;P  I'd say it was more like some kind of curse, like The Father defined in KQ2+.  Only problem is, The Father isn't officially part of the series.  And certainly not KQ Canon. ;)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2006, 10:47:21 PM
No it wasn't a curse in the original storyline... I mentioned all the reasons that lead to his heart attack in my previous posts according to the King's Quest Companion and the KQ4 itself, as well as the later manuals...

The loss of his son Alexander broke his heart, I.E. weakened his heart. All the troubles that hit the land between the loss of his son and later the loss of his daughter also weakened his heart due the stress he went through. The fact that he had to decided to give up his daughter and take her to the dragon also caused guilt which weakened his heart, and the fact he had thought he lost his daughter for good. Finally the pure shock of happiness of his return of his children proved to be too much for his already weakened heart.

Its literally a heart attack of a broken heart and purely stress related issues. Literally things that can actually cause heart attacks in real life, no curses needed.
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on August 30, 2006, 10:59:30 PM
The loss of his son Alexander broke his heart, I.E. weakened his heart. All the troubles tha the land between the loss of his son and later the loss of his daughter also weakened his heart. The fact that he had to decided to give up his daughter and take her to the dragon also caused guilt which weakened his heart, and the fact he had thought he lost his daughter for good. Finally the pure shock of happiness of his return of his children proved to be too much for his already weakened heart.
Funny thing is, it wasn't too much, because whether you see this or not, Graham is the main character in Shadows.  Alexander and Rosella are both part of TSL, now and forever.  As for the weakened heart, it's all history.  Which you and Petra seem to enjoy reliving, but the fact is, we live in the present, and look towards the future.

Thanks for the info, Baggins. ;)

:angel:
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 30, 2006, 11:04:32 PM
I'm not sure what you are getting at?

It was too much for his heart, that's why he had a heart attack, joy of seeing his returning family was the proverbial straw. He wouldn't have had a heart attack if all those factors hadn't affected his heart. Hell without the fruit graham dies in the bad ending.

All I did was bring up how the companion(and manuals and strategy guides) kept on repeatably bringing up how the heart attack affected his life and why it happened to him.

The companion makes a big deal about during the KQ3, KQ4, KQ5 and maybe even in KQ5 sections of the book. As well as how he was healed by the fruit and his life strengthened... I was just posting information for anyone who cared... Various members of the Royal family, and Derek make it a matter to bring it up and give their thoughts about it in the book.

It is also stated right in the intro that Graham's heart attack is caused by the return of his children... The shock of pure joy.

To quote Valanice in the companion;

"...too many strong emotions in too short a time are what felled him".

...or to quote Lorelei Shannon, writing under the character of, "Bryanne Eriphidel", in the official King's Quest 6 strategy guide;

"The days events had been too much for his stout heart to take.", pg 13.

...or Lorelei Shannon in the official KQ7 strat guide;

"Watching his daughter almost get turned into Dragon Flambe and then suddenly finding his long lost son was too much for his heart to handle.", pg. 15.

So the figure of speech, of it being "too much for his heart" is not my words or my opinion, but the words of the official manuals, and other sources of backstory.

If it bothers you didn't have to read it... No reason to get so defensive... wow...

I doubt the heart attack has any bearing in the plot of your game.. that wasn't the point.

I'm sorry I have to point this out. Historians do not live in the past. They just like looking at the big picture. How things in the the past influenced the present. By doing that we have a better idea of who we are and what we will be come, or we are likely to repeat ourselves.

However saying historians live in the past, that's rather offensive.

Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 31, 2006, 09:31:04 AM
Woah, woah, calm down people.  ;D  This is supposed to be interesting context for Kings Quests and for me at least little fun reveling in my own weirdness.  :P  And Graham's heart is beside the point mostly.  Nor do I really look mostly at the past, (though I do that a lot) I'm just not allowed to talk about the present or the future that way here, so it just looks like it.  :P

 Back to topic. If Graham's heart failed due to emotional reasons that would explain the (relatively) young age it happened at. But actually infant mortality is a large part of the reason for lower life expectancies, a healthy 40 year old would probably not keel over and die anywhere.  So it does not have to mean that the life expectancy is well over 40.  :)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 31, 2006, 12:52:37 PM
Well, one of the first lines in KQ4, the narrator calls him "Old King Graham", he's 42 in the game(according to Lorelei Shannon's official notes in the KQ6, and KQ7 strategy guides).

It would appear that the narrator considers 42 to be old age in daventry (noting he's called old before he even has the heart attack).

However, on the other hand in the same game Rosella says he shouldn't have to die, "he's still young, and should have many years ahead of him". So in her point of view apparently he might be considered old by some standards, but he's still young enougn that he should have had many years ahead of him, without the heart attack.

KQ5 narrator apparently still considers him an "old man" though, he's 43 in that game.

So it would mean range of old age must be somewhere betwen 40-60 years. 60 being considered venerable, and close to death (as I believe I brought up iin an earlier thread, Master Rokaill, Rosella's tutor as an example).

So even with life style the way it is in Daventry comparible to medieval standards, and its level of medicine(taking into account occasional magical remedies) they seem to live upwards to 50-60, maybe 70.

Anycase I've just added in the Fisherman's Shack in Tamir to the omnipedia, here's some screenshots of it;

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/thumb/e/ef/Fishermanshack.PNG/584px-Fishermanshack.PNG)

Take into consideration that the people are incredibly poor. Rosella helps them out later by:

giving them diamonds.


Here is a shot of outside of Whateley Manor(AKA Haunted House)
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/0/0f/Whateley.PNG)

The inside will be added later.

Here is Grandma's House in Kolyma;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/9/9e/Grandmahouse.PNG)

I've already shown the outside of the Monastery of the Blessed Wilbury, here is the inside of the chapel;

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/1/19/Monasterychapelkq2.PNG)



Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 31, 2006, 03:34:03 PM
Interesting.  If people survive childhood their life expectancies grow, so a life expectency at birth of 35 means a higher one if one makes it past ten.  Thus people who make it to adulthood could easily live to 50-70. 

  The iron heater is late 18thc technology, though that does not mean it couldn't have been around sooner in theory.  They do look poor certainly, though the presence of rugs with the old lady suggests good textile production, and the paintings on the walls are also probably above serf level. The fisherman's house looks like a pioneers house, with practically no decorations and minimal furnishings.  Still if they are very poor as you say that just means it isn't now.  ;)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 31, 2006, 03:44:25 PM
The twins were born to Valanice when Graham was about 24 years old. We have no idea exact age of Valanice, but she is apparently younger than Graham.

As I've mentioned before 20 is considered the start of marriagable age apparently(according to MOE manual) at least for nobles. King Graham married at 22, btw.

However, there may be examples of some characters being married before 20. Rosella's  friend Hesthia apparently (she isn't a noble however, and is married to the Town of Daventry's village baker), and even Alexander(though technically he was almost 20).

Hesthia married and had her first child when she was about 15 btw, she is three years older than Rosella.

Well textile production certainly isn't an issue. Looms have been around for thousands of years :), and were used back in medieval times as well.  Of course spinning wheel is seen throughout the King's Quest series in various games.

Widow Burke is apparently Connor's town weaver and has a loom and spinning wheel in her house. It can be seen she knows how to make carpets with her loom as well.

It should also be noted that houses in Daventry based on descriptions in KQ1, MoE, and novels tend to have cobble stone or wooden floors, but all roads are dirt. Other than that most houses are very spartan and appear mainly medieval in nature, and quite simple.

But ya King's Quest games are kind of funny in that there are occasionally refrences to historical events, people or places on earth. Yet certain technologies and architecture tends to be anachronistic to technology seen in other lands in other games in the series.

Apparently planet Jupiter exists in the same solar system as the "earth" in King's Quest games as well, according to MOE. Just to point out another element that the King's Quest world shares with ours.

As for the fisherman and his wife, the game actually makes a point out that they are incredibly poor as they do not have enough money to buy any food, except "cheap cans of food", and they aren't doing well fishing. They are beginning to starve.

Canned food in actual cans is a product of the 19th century(around 1810 or so) and up.

Anycase here is the three official versions of Woodcutter's cottage...

Original storyline AGI version (the one the companion refrences);
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/e/e4/WoodcuttercottageAGI.PNG)


The KQ1 EGA remake;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/0/03/WoodcuttercottageEGA.PNG)

The Sega Master System remake;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/c/c8/WoodcuttercottageSMS.PNG)

Oh, I looked into Master Rokaill again, he was considered venerable at 60, but he actually lived to the age of 78 (he's considered rightfully ancient) last time we hear about him. No telling how old he was when he dies. But granted he had a very long life, especially if we consider that Graham was considered old at age 42.
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 31, 2006, 06:33:39 PM
Well I guessed textile production was around, I mean, they are all wearing clothes.  ;D  But people didn't (usually) put cloth on the floor to be stepped on in the Middle ages. Cloth was valuable and even scraps were used to make paper or patches more often than to wipe the dirt off your feet IIRC. Wall drapes were common in castles as insulation, so I guess you could say people back then put the carpet on the walls.  ;D Putting them on the floor usually came after mass production IIRC (all those dark satanic mills produced more that smoke ;)).

 And I think marrigable age is more of a culture thing than a life expectancy thing.  Don't quote me on that though, I'm not at all sure.  Paved roads were rare until quite recently. I would think cans would probably be impossible to make economically without some sort of large industrial press but I'm no factory foreman either.  ;)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 31, 2006, 06:41:24 PM
Like I said the series is filled with anachronistic material. Hell going by certain dates, in the games the series can be set some time after the 1700's based on grave stones in Tamir (coincidently carpets used as ground covering became more common in europe in the 1700's) :D.

However, carpets of a sort were used on floors in medieval times, however it tended to be more of the flax or straw mats type. This was usually in locations where the ground was more muddy than normal, if they only had packed floors.

Persians had ground carpets as far back as the 1500's. Often used to sit on.

Middle class could often afford to have floor carpets.

More on actual history of carpets can be found here; here (http://www.carpetinfo.co.uk/pages/aboutpp/history.htm)

Most people in connor's village do not have carpets. Its telling that weaver, Widow Burke chose to put that kind of luxery between her bed near the fireplace, when most people in her village do not have that kind of frivalty. On the other hand there are only 2 beds in the home, and they aren't big enough for three people,  Sarah, her mother, and her dead father... Either they got rid of a third bed, when Jonathan Burke died, or carpet was used as a third bed...

We also know that carpets (often red ones) have been in Daventry's throne room since the very first game in the series.

Yes marriage age is often cultural or may be based on financial factors.

A rich noble might be able to afford waiting to marry, where as a peasent often marries younger in order to start a family early to help support whatever business the family is in.
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 31, 2006, 07:20:25 PM
Well, yes but Middle Eastern rugs were used in lieu of furniture in the west IIRC. And some sort of floor covering was certainly used in the Middle ages, just usually not cloth.  :)  But yes, 1700's is about when I remember reading carpets went to floor use as well.  By then the first industrial revolution was underway, manufacturing a lot of textiles. But not all people used them, the pioneer and other poorer houses didn't have them.  Thus I thought there use in poorer houses indicated a higher level of level than the Middle ages.  That does not mean modern standards, 1700's was a lot better than 1000's but still not what we would call modern.  ;D

And in the real Middle ages financial and political considerations were paramount in choosing a spouse, but I doubt Kings quest is interested in marrying Rosella off to a merchant for her weight in gold.  ;D
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on August 31, 2006, 07:24:12 PM
I think they just added a carpet in the KQ1 remake cause it looked good with the new highres EGA graphics at the time heh heh. It added more contrast. If you look at the rug it's called a "threadbare carpet".

Even in original KQ1, that "blue floor" is just called a "wooden floor" IIRC, no mention of a rug, and mentions how they couldn't even fix the floor. So its likely just a limitation with the graphics system at the time.

Now the Whately Manor in Tamir almost all furnishings in it look victorian, late 1800's.

A look into weapon technology found in the world of Daventry might also be useful; Here (http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Category:Armor/Weapons). I can't remember if any weapons that used black powder shows up in the games or not, however. Weapon technology appears mainly to be stuck back at sword, maces, hammers, crossbow and plate armor levels...

It might also be telling to look at some of the clothes warn by priests in Daventry;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/0/0c/PriestMoE.JPG)

(http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Religion/TheodoreII.jpg)
Judging by what you can see on his priestly vestage, it would seem that church in Daventry is of Eastern Orthodox denomination.

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/2/2f/ChurchMoE.JPG)

Gingerbread House in Daventry;

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/thumb/2/2e/GingerbreadhouseAGI.PNG/607px-GingerbreadhouseAGI.PNG)

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/thumb/7/75/GingerbreadhouseEGA.JPG/513px-GingerbreadhouseEGA.JPG)

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/e/ef/Gingerbreadhouse3.PNG)

Ok here is the inside of the mansion in tamir;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/8/80/Whateleymanor2.PNG)

Here is the Ogre's House in Tamir;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/c/ce/Ogrehouse.PNG)

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/3/37/Ogrehouse2.PNG)

Here is the Seven Dwarfs' house in Tamir;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/5/5d/Sevendwarfshouse.PNG)

The three bear's home in Llewdor;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/f/fb/Threebearshouse.PNG)

Port Bruce in Llewdor;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/4/45/Portbruce.PNG)

As it is it seems that world of Daventry has a level of pseudo-fantasy medieval. In fantasy medieval its ok to have carpets, but practically all other technology is limited to what existed in medieval times(though not necessarily the Dark Ages period of middle ages).

Though occasionally steampunk fantasy elements where you have something akin to industrial revolution happening back in medieval times.

Granted so called "ages" periods are not always start or end at the same time in all regions of the world. Which might explain some of the varying use of technology seen in the games(some locations seemingly at an industrial level, while other areas are at much lower standards).
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on September 01, 2006, 03:55:39 PM
Odd how many of those weapons came from MoE.  :suffer:  And while that priest has a semi-orthodox look to him, that Monk in KQII means other branches much also be present.  :) While all the devices do not come from a unified period, that is to be expected, in another world we cannot expect to see exactly the same devices at exactly the same time, especially if the people's lives are predicated on a totally differant ideal. (Magic as opposed to science)

 The manor is much better furnished than the Witch's house, to use extremes, so it is hard to say anything general.  Add to that the fact that I am really not all knowing about interiors of peoples house over the last 300 years either.  ::) Still, I would say they live better than tribal peoples or fellaheen in the time of Ramases but probably not so well as we do.  Say first industrial revolution 1750-1850 as a rough guess.  :)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on September 01, 2006, 06:34:15 PM
Well you asked how many of the weapons came from MOE? Most of them LOL. Obviously the Magic Shield, Slingshot, Dagger, Axe, Shining Sword, and a few other items are in other games in the series.

Well actually the victorian era furnishings, and William Shakespeare book makes sense if you consider the fact it was lived in by people of Innsmouth, Massachusetts, as early as the 1500's or so (going by dates on the gravestones) and they lived in it until around the late 1800s or early 20th century, before it was abandoned except by ghosts.

One of the earliest gravestones mentions a date of 1546. It is for a small boy named Willy, and he is infact one of the ghosts that haunts the mansion.

 Granted that date makes an issue with Lovecraft's history for insmouth in that he had the founding of the town in 1643, so the house or at least the graveyard predates founding of the town.

Granted its possible that the mansion was built before the founding of the town proper, or that the ghost is haunting the mansion but not necessarily ever lived there.

Its also anachronistic in that the date predates all the major settlements by colonists in new world by at least 100 years. However its possible that the mansion had been built in england before being moved to the Colonies at a later time. Which might make sense since several people in the graveyard had died in England.

A noteable unnamed individual buried in the graveyard includes a man who died from a fight with the famous irish boxer, Simon Byrne (historically the gravestone matches the one for Alexander McKay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_McKay)). According to the companion the gravestone was written for a man in his strength.

In another grave was a woman and her daughters that died after drinking Chelt'nam waters(Chelt'nam, or Cheltenham is a location in england), she believed if they had only used Epsom salts they woudn't have died (Epsom salt derives its name from a town in England of the same name, where the salts were originally prepared).

Yet another person died by bursting from use of Seidlitz powder(Seidlitz is a village in Bohemia, and the powder is named after the natural water found near there).

Now in King's Quest companion, we learn oddly enough that Mr. Kurtz from the story Heart of Darkness who died in Africa, was ultimately buried in one of the Ooga Booga cementaries. His famous line, "The Horror The Horror" engraved on his epitaph.

Remember its essentially our world, just our world where magic has existed. Like our world it shares all of our same planets as well. Everything that has happened in our history is part of their history as well(don't ask me to explain how that works out exactly, but historical events and inviduals get mentioned throughout the series).

People from ancient Egypt built a crypt in Tamir, in order to hide Pandora's Box, and bury a mummy. The Innsmouth citizens found the key and hid it in the mansion.

Manannan has a copy of Philosophies of Socrates, and Ancient Arabic Mythology in his library :).

Cleopatra's soul was taken before Samhain.

Roberta once said in a chat I was part of that her games happen in our world but at some distant period in the past...

Granted it appears she never really thought about how they fit historically, so anachronisms exist, and there are obviously geography issues. But eh we are supposed to have a certain suspension of disbelief.

I also don't know if she intended for Daventry and Kolyma of the games to be the locations of the same name that exist in our world or not, but who knows.

If she intended Kolyma to be the same place, then it would have to be in a time when that part of the eurasian continent was located in a tropical latitude before it drifted to the current location where we see it today. On the other hand the concept that world or weather can be altered or controlled through magical means also exists, which could also explain Kolyma's "tropical setting".

On the other hand KQ3 kind of implies that Daventry is in the Sierra Mountain range, somewhere near Yosemite valley, as Half-Dome can be seen, and Alexander comments on seeing it(granted he also admits its probably because he's in a "sierra game"). Breaking the 4th wall and all that...

As a side note its not uncommon for authors to take the idea that magic exists in our world, just most people have forgotten how to use it, or because it can't be tested people deny its existence.

H.P. Lovecraft wrote his books as if they were set during early 20th century in our world. In his stories magic exists in our world as well, but usually magic of the darker sort derived from dark beings from the cosmos, called the Old Gods.

Of course Harry Potter also has the idea that magic exists in contempory times, but people who deny the existence of Magic, or cannot use magic are muggles. Magical beings and most magic users have moved to remote places of the Earth to practice their crafts.

I don't know if you have played Gabriel Knight series, but it also is a story where magic and the darker creatures of myth exists on earth.

The Princess Bride was supposed to have taken place on our world, in some little known kingdom of Florin. However refrences to real world locations are made in the story, such as Sicily, England, and America.

Its literally quite common to have magic, and monsters take place on earth in stories. As well as claiming the existence of "little known nations" or towns. The authors just expect the audience to have a willing suspension of disbelief.

Even in political thriller shows and movies its often common for some ficitonal, so called, "little known third world south-american, european (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictional_European_countries), or african nation" to be mentioned as the plot of the story. As well as in other stories.

Princess Diaries has "Genovia" for example.

Here is a shot of the outside of the Old Gnome's Shack in Daventry(sorry there are no inside shots in the game);
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/6/69/Gnomehome.PNG)

Here are some outsides of locations in Serenia, I'll add inside shots later(when possible);

Swarthy Hog/North Inn;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/9/9c/Swarthyhoginn.JPG)

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/e/e1/Northinn.PNG)

Baker Bros. Bake House;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/b/b6/Bakehouse.JPG)

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/8/8e/Bakehouse2.PNG)

Serenia Towne;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/c/c0/Sereniatowne.JPG)

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/2/2f/Sereniatowne2.PNG)

Crispin's House;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/5/5a/Crispenhouse.JPG)

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/3/3d/Crispinhouse2.JPG)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on September 03, 2006, 05:25:31 PM
Actually I was noting that practically all the weapons came from MOE.  ;)  Funny how that works.  ;D 

 Wherever Daventry exists in time and place, the people there obviously would have to have some contact with earth to explain all the earth references.  I guess you can say it part of earth, hidden from the rest by magic as well as anything else.  ;) I never really liked the obscure nation gig, partly because I can tell its wrong ( I know Malawi and Uzbekistan are real nations and "genovia" isn't  ;P) but magic works.  :)

  But while certainly not late 20thc standards, the houses do look better than a fellahs hovel, with paintings and rugs not just a stick table and shelf with a few pots.   Of course economic conditions may change between Connors village and some other parts of the nation, and between differant classes in the same area as well but it is still a possibly useful guideline.  :)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on September 06, 2006, 06:53:26 AM
It's about as useful as an 8 year old game can get. ;)  Although, most fans don't consider MoE to have any value, due to its complete and utter disrespect to the King's Quest series. ;P Even on this forum, we automatically replace its attempt at following in suit with its actual name. :) It's actually a lot of fun exposing that game for what it truly is, rather than allowing it to hide behind some facade and continue to disguise the truth. 8)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on September 06, 2006, 01:05:18 PM
Err, were you trying to post in the why should I like or hate conner thread?  ;)  I actually thought it was rather amusing that you censored K Q 8 as if it were some sort of taboo word that must not be spoken while we shoved pins into a voodoo doll of an MoE box.  ;D  Sorry, I get these weird mental pictures sometimes.  ::)

 Anyhow, yes MoE was bad. It is not the first series to be destroyed like that and I daresay it will not be the last. Plenty of good series went that way, like MOO. Kings quest is fortunate though.  This is the first time I have heard of fans trying to revive an old game by something other that griping.  I've heard a lot of griping in that line about all sorts of games, but you are the first I know of to get up and do something, which is why I respect this team so much.  :)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on September 06, 2006, 09:08:53 PM
Oddly there were alot of people that complained about KQ7 as not being KQ enough, and being "disrespectful" to King's Quest. Lots of people who hated its disneyesque style, and not being as epic or "realistic" as KQ5 and 6 were. Even Peter Spear used Derek Karlavaegen to sorta write it out of existence. Derek coudn't for the life of him believe the story, believing it to only be tabloid drivel. That saying Derek admitted he might be wrong (however having Derek deny the game's existence came off sounding as if Peter Spear didn't like the game as well as previous games in the series). Reviewers were mixed on KQ7 and gave it varied ratings similar to what MOE received(some either liked it or were turned off by its style).

I don't think Roberta and those involved could make everyone happy if they tried. There were people that disliked nearly every game. MOE sold as well as the previous game in the series(which would have been enough for old Sierra standards). Unfortunately it wasn't enough for Havas Interactive(a company that was more bent on profit) to support another game in the series.

Hell even Gabriel Knight 3 a more traditional adventure game didn't even sell well enough for a 4th game in the series to be made, even though it sold well for its genre(and matched or exceeded previous sales figures for earlier games in the series).

Obviously the same occured with QF5.

Adventure games just weren't marketable at that time. They couldn't compete with other genres, and simply didn't sell as much.

I seem to recall reading an interview with Ken Williams where he was sad he sold the company and what later companies did to his company. He essentially said if he had the chance to make the decision again he would have kept Sierra, and continued to allow its designers to make the games they enjoyed. Even if they weren't big sellers like FPS were. His personal sales goals weren't nearly as high as other companies wanted games to sell.

According to Josh Mandel, the downfall of Sierra came when;

"innovation [gave] way to emulation. Whereas Sierra's management once strove to make it solid, profitable, and yet fun, they now strive to dominate other companies, force annual growth in the double digits, and (like so many other companies) cut jobs mercilessly to improve the bottom line and thrill the stockholders."  
-Source (http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/all/gamespotting/042503kuribosshoe/10.html), read the article for more information on limited success of both Gabriel Knight, and King's Quest MOE.

P.S. as a note of trivia even KQ7 was released with some material cut out that would have increased the backstory to the game(loss of a scene with King Graham, and extension to the plot of Gargoyle, and Boogeyman, and refrences to a war that occured and how Vlad became headless). I'm sure if that material could have made it into the game the story might have been considered a bit more epic.

Anycase back to the screenshots of pictures from the games;

Here is outside of Manannan's house, I'll post the inside later.
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/c/c6/Manannanhouse.PNG)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on September 07, 2006, 06:44:10 AM
I was talking about MoE as a whole, since the majority of people detest it, myself included. XD  I see Connor more of a victim of circumstance than the reason for MoE's failure.  MoE itself might have been a nice game standalone.  If MoE was a song, it could have been a one-hit-wonder, but considering how it was sub-par even for its genre, it would have failed regardless of its title containing the words King's Quest or not. :P 

The reason we censored K-Q-8 is because there is none.  That roman numeral doesn't appear on the box (at least, not on the North American ones) but Mask of Eternity does on all.  So, rather than further allowing people to believe MoE is a King's Quest game created with the same quality and effort as other games, we decided to allow it to remain standalone.  Whether it's good enough to stand alone or not, well, that could be debated.  In my opinion, as well as that of the majority of KQ fans, it's not.  But, censoring/replacing the title is not as bad as banning all discussion of the game (which is what Vivendi had done for our project).  Does anyone know if they allow our game to be discussed on their site now, since we're legal? ;)

Oddly there were alot of people that complained about KQ7 as not being KQ enough, and being "disrespectful" to King's Quest.
That's not so odd.  Every game in the series can both be bashed and praised for different aspects.  You could bash them on individual mistakes, or bash them by comparing them with the rest of the series as well.  That's just human nature.  People make the active choice to say what they love and what they hate, and they have every right to do so.  However, our forum and this world doesn't allow hatred, so as long as you separate your dislike for a game from personal attacks, you'll be fine. :)

Josh's quote is correct, that Sierra was focused more on RoI and RoE than their customers.  Obviously, taking that route will guarantee bankruptcy, since your customers and potential customers are what will keep your company alive.  Stocks aren't 100% reliable and if you make a bad move that damages your goodwill and reputation (i.e. sending a non-profit group a C&D ;)) you're jepoardizing more than you think.

With that said, I'm fairly certain Phoenix Online Studios won't persue the same path that Sierra did.  If fans want to make a KQX or TSL2, we'd most likely allow them, but they would need both our permission and that of Vivendi's.  They only reason we'd say no is if the game is defamatory, illegal, obscene, etc.  We also have quality standards, just like VU does.  I'm not going to say the next game must be 3D and must be better than ours.  As someone that's been in this team for years, I already know what people are capable of, and how being non-profit limits your time & resources.

Our game is certainly not the best possible game out there, and everyone in our team acknowledges this too, but still, we are trying our best with the resources available (i.e. $0 budget).  You could say that MoE tried its best, and Sierra tried its best, etc.  But, I could have told you back in 1996 or 1997 that MoE would have been a failure, the moment my cousin said "It's gonna be like an RPG".  I believe my exact words were "RPG? For a King's Quest game?".  I didn't bash it right off the bat or anything, I was just confused.  It had potential in its conceptual phase, and had it been done well, it would have succeeded and the series would not have needed a TSL. :)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on September 07, 2006, 07:32:41 AM
Quote
I was talking about MoE as a whole, since the majority of people detest it, myself included

Actually its more likely majority of people in your forum dislike it. Outside of this forum its more like a 50/50 thing. 50% of people like it, or 50% people hated it. This is reflected in the reviews. Obviously there are alot of people that never played it either, and know nothing about it.

Granted the reviews were about the same for KQ7 as well. But when KQ7 was made, Sierra wasn't so much into the whole profit margin thing, unlike when Havas Interactive was in charge of the company. The disney style animation thing however was done in order to try to catch in on the popularity of the Disney movies that had done well in the theaters at the time(it was reflected in nearly every sierra adventure game at the time). So there were just as many bad reviews as there were good reviews for the game from those that liked the Animation style or didn't.

Quote
sub-par even for its genre
Actually for the 50% of reviewers who played it. It was actually literally praised for being next level of evolution for adventure games, combining aspects of traditional intelligent adventure puzzles, and Action-Adventure(I.E tombraider) elements. These reviewers are/were/became "King's Quest Fans".

Granted one of the only things early reviewers complained about was the infusion of "QFG/Diablo" style rpg elements, which they believed actually slowed the game down, since it forced you to "level" or you couldn't get past certain obstacles.

MOE did its job, it actually did create new King's Quest fans, and lead them to buy or play earlier games in the series. Unfortunately King's Quest(or I should say "Adventure Games) had more or less of a cult following, and simply didn't sell as well as a "Half-life" or a "Doom" style game.

MOE might have sold as well or exceeded KQ7, but Havas Interactive was more interested in the profit margin. So selling a million copies or 2 wasn't enough for them, they wanted to sell more, they wanted it to reach or exceed other games on the market at the time. But adventure games just didn't sell.

Roberta Williams once said;
If I had created King's Quest 8 exactly the same as the other prior seven, it might have gotten great reviews and kudos from its biggest fans, but it wouldn't have sold as many copies as it has ... I'm sure of that.

From her POV she felt it was the way she wanted to tell the story, and she wanted to bring King's Quest to more people, create new "King's Quest Fans". The fact is she did, many of those new  fans went on to play earlier games in the series, and wish there were new games in the series.

As a point of note, Roberta said that MOE outsold Grim Fandango another great adventure game at the time two to one.

That is if old Sierra had still been in charge, and not Havas it would have likely been considered enough for them to create yet another sequel.

Here is KQ5 Nes Shoestore;

(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/e/e7/Shoestore.PNG)

Toy Shop;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/c/c1/Toyshop.PNG)

Tailor;
(http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/d/d2/Tailorshop.PNG)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on September 07, 2006, 08:32:44 AM
Actually its more likely majority of people in your forum dislike it. Outside of this forum its more like a 50/50 thing. 50% of people like it, or 50% people hated it. This is reflected in the reviews. Obviously there are alot of people that never played it either, and know nothing about it.
Actually, if you do double-blind survey of King's Quest fans and ask them for their opinion of MoE, you'll find that far less than 50% liked MoE. :P But, you don't even need to do this, just look at any review for that game and compare it with other games of the same genre, other games from the same company, and of course other games by the same designer.  All point to the same conclusion, and given history,  Sierra ceased the King's Quest series due to MoE.  They didn't try to salvage the series, plotline or anything.  The reason is as you said, due to insufficient profits and the shift in market trends away from the adventure genre.

So, now you have a game called The Silver Lining.  We're not following current market trends, we're not following the same style as the KQ series (i.e. 2D), and our technological limits are far higher than those of 1998.  However, we're not a multi-billion dollar company so our goal isn't to push technological limits.  We're not Vivendi, Nintendo or Sony.  Our game isn't about graphics, it's about storyline and giving closure to a series that rightfully deserves it.  Our fans are large in number and support us because they share the same dream we do, and perhaps the same dream Sierra had 10-20 years ago.

Now, we're also not limiting ourselves to only the adventure genre, or only the King's Quest series.  I've said this at least 20 times this year, on our site and others, but I have no problem saying it again. :P 

I understand Roberta's strategy back then completely, in fact, our entire team does, which is why we've been so successful up to this point.  There were several obvious mistakes made with MoE that anyone can point out, but the business and marketing mistakes are even more obvious to Say and myself, so we already know how to avoid them completely and not fall into the same hole Sierra did eight years ago. 8)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on September 07, 2006, 12:18:52 PM
Quote
at any review for that game and compare it with other games of the same genre, other games from the same company, and of course other games by the same designer.

Let's see other games by that same genre. Well it actually outsold any other adventure game that year, it received many good reviews. Grim Fandango was the second best selling adventure game that year (though Grim Fandango had a better rating, however it was fairly common for Lucasarts to edge out Sierra in ratings generally).

Other games of the same company. It sold as well if not more than Gabriel Knight 3, and QFG5 which were released around the same time. All three did not do well compared to games from other genres. Yes companies based their sales figures on how well other genres outside of adventure games sold, if a game didn't reach sells of say a First Person Shooter, it was a failure in their eyes, when to most companies it would have been seen as astounding as far as Adventure genre goes.

It received equal if not better ratings than QFG5, as I recall. For example Gamespot actually liked MOE over QFG5. MOE had a slightly higher rating by .2% or so.

GK3 received only slightly better reviews than MOE, with about 79% being 70% or higher. Going by gamsranking's list, obviously not a coplete list of reviews but shows a good sampling of reviews at the time.

Games by the same designer, it sold equal to if not more than any previous King's Quest game. Roberta herself was actually quite happy with how well it sold, if she had been in charge of the company she would have made a 9th game. Her expectations just weren't as high as Havas Interactive.

Interesting enough it was still one of the best selling adventure game even in 2001 in the top 20, competing against many of the newer adventure games at the time.

 I've read lots of reviews of the time it got usually got 70% or higher ratings. KQ7 received 70% or higher ratings during its release as well. Sure there were reviewers who gave both games less than stellar reviews as well.

Let's take an example, from well respected adventure game site, Just Adventure, they actually gave MOE a higher rating than they did KQ7. They gave KQ7 50% rating, and MOE an 80% rating.

For those reviewers that lambasted the so called "mistakes" in MOE, there were many more than "praised" them as "innovations"... For those reviewers that felt it deviated from the series roots there were many more than felt it stayed true to the series spirit and lineage. Like anything reviews are built upon opinions, and not everyone agrees with each other.

Quote
So, now you have a game called The Silver Lining.

Look, I get this impression from you that you think discussion of how well MOE, did or didn't do. It appears you take it as a slight against your game...

 Well let me guarentee it isn't a slight against your game. I wish your game great popularity, and a very high download rate. I can't wait to play it myself. I'm just stating the facts as I have read them about what happened with MoE(it has no baring on your game). Hopefully to try to dispell certain myths people perpetuate about MoE, and let them in on more detailed history of what happened. It is not meant to deter any success of your game.
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on September 07, 2006, 12:31:40 PM
 Keep it calm people, we are all friends here.  Or should be.  ;)  This isn't a flame war yet by some way but I smell the start of one so keep cool.  Or I will use my giant super-soaker on all of you.  So there!  :suffer:

  And with all due respect, this is totally off-topic for this thread, even if we have expanded it to all history. Can some mod please move to the Connor thread or wherever you think it goes.  :)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on September 07, 2006, 12:38:33 PM
Yes, I agree, its totally gone off topic... But please if you must move the posts, can you make sure the links to the screenshots remain in this topic?
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Say on September 07, 2006, 04:26:43 PM
These posts may stay here as long as you just go back to the previous conversation. So, don't worry about moving your attachments or whatnot :)

Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on September 10, 2006, 01:05:29 AM
We can get back on topic, since I'm now finally starting to understand the whole per capita GDP thing. :)

Oh and Baggins, it turns out I'm a bit too swamped to update the TSL Timeline.  We'll see if things change though.  If not, then I'll just keep it how it is, and you'll just have to wait for Shadows to get released before getting any more info. :suffer:
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on September 10, 2006, 01:11:59 PM
Sorry for the double post, but this one's somewhat important:

In light of new information, I won't be making any further adjustments to the TSL Timeline (http://www.postudios.com/archivedTSL/library/timeline/).  Thanks again for all your hard work, Baggins.  It was actually pretty informative, but probably not worth all the effort you put into it. 8)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on September 11, 2006, 12:28:05 AM
That's ok, I'm sure whatever this new bit of info is, that causes your timeline to diverge even further from official one than it already does will make for a fascinating article in the Omnipedia someday, or at least an addition to a current article.  :suffer:
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on September 11, 2006, 07:23:48 AM
You're forgetting that Peter Spear will be making a TSL Companion, meaning our timeline will add to the official one. 8)  You're right that it will make a fascinating Omnipedia addition someday. :)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on September 11, 2006, 08:01:06 AM
Peter Spear's adaptation of your game is just a fanfic, much as it is an adaptation of a fan game, seeing as it likely won't be officially authorized by Sierra as well(that is published under the sierra trademark and brand name).

But yes if he's stuck to your timeline, it obviously will conflict with the official timeline(as most of that timeline was published in the manuals). As their are already multiple inconsistencies that already exist in your timeline with those sources. He may actually have inconsistencies with his previous published works, since it was based on the official timeline. Hell your timeline already has inconsistenencies with his previously published works.

Alternatively it is possible he might ignore your timeline and adapt the game's storyline to the official one somehow. But then that would make it much different than your timeline.

But ya why are we discussing that here?
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on September 11, 2006, 10:35:21 AM
Peter Spear's adaptation of your game is just a fanfic, much as it is an adaptation of a fan game, seeing as it likely won't be officially authorized by Sierra as well(that is published under the sierra trademark and brand name).
Since likelyhood is not absolute, we'll see. 8)

But yes if he's stuck to your timeline, it obviously will conflict with the official timeline(as most of that timeline was published in the manuals).
In case you haven't realized yet, the official series conflicts with itself.  Peter made the Companion books to resolve these conflicts, just as how we're attempting to resolve remaining conflicts.

Alternatively it is possible he might ignore your timeline and adapt the game's storyline to the official one somehow. But then that would make it much different than your timeline.
The solution to a problem isn't to ignore it. 8)

But ya why are we discussing that here?
You already know the answer to that question. ;)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on September 11, 2006, 11:45:53 AM
 This doesn't have much to go with GDPs in Daventry but if this is now my thread I guess it doesn't matter, right?  ;D  And if this is supposed to be my Haven thread should somebody move it there? Whatever, somebody will tell if I am doing something wrong I suppose.  ;D

 I was just reading that in the early American colonies people tended to marry sooner (when in late teens early twenties) and have larger families than back in europe.  This is usually ascribed to the large amount of land the colonies had, thus making it possible to support a family more easily in a basically farming economy. Thus Rosella's early marriage age may indicate that Daventry is sparsely populated.  Then again marriage or betrothal among European aristocracy were commonly very young because nobody wanted to wait for the political advantages marriage brought, so it is remotely possible I am reading way too much into this.  ;D 

 EDIT:

  And what the deuce are you two going on about?  You can talk about it here if you really want I suppose, but it does seem to be a very odd choice of topics. (Assuming this is now 'my thread' and that I can give you permission to do that, I'm a little shaky on what that means still.   ::))
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on September 11, 2006, 12:59:10 PM
And if this is supposed to be my Haven thread should somebody move it there? Whatever, somebody will tell if I am doing something wrong I suppose.  ;D
Done. XD  And don't worry, I've already told you what you've done wrong.  As far as I can tell, you're not doing anything wrong right now. :)

And what the deuce are you two going on about?  You can talk about it here if you really want I suppose, but it does seem to be a very odd choice of topics. (Assuming this is now 'my thread' and that I can give you permission to do that, I'm a little shaky on what that means still.   ::))
Sorry about that.  If Baggins had his own thread, I'd discuss it there, but you're right.  I won't spam it any further. ;P
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on September 11, 2006, 01:12:30 PM
Quote
In case you haven't realized yet, the official series conflicts with itself.


No it doesn't. The timeline established by the games is consistent with it self, except for maybe one refrence in the KQ5 strategy guide. There is no contradictions between the games(At least with the first 7, MOE has some geographical/architectural issues with Castle Daventry, but everything else does not interfere with any previous game). That is they are stand alone enough that they don't interfere with any previous game in the series or state anything that is inconsistent to previous games. Practically every manual or official strategy guide up to KQ7 had synopses of "what happened before", and these were the articles that often stated how much time had passed between each game. MOE manual even had the synopes however it didn't mention how much time passed between KQ7 and 8.

Peter Spear's current novels are in line with that timeline. Your timeline is not in line with that timeline, there are several inconsistencies where your timeline deviates from the official timeline. I have sent you several articles pointing out where the timelines diverge from each other. It its about 1-2 sometimes 3 year deviation.

Since your timeline is already deviated from the official timeline, if Peter Spear was to use it, he'd have already deviated from the timeline he used in his books. There would be contradictions.

For example you have King's Quest 1 taking place over course of 6 months. He had the same story taking place over the course of three days.


That difference can hardly be reconciled, 3 days compared to 6 months is large difference in time. They simply are not consistent.

Another example is you have Alex and Rosella born 3 years after KQ1, its 5 years in the official timeline. So there is a 2 year difference right there and tweaks the ages of the characters somewhat.

The timelines are quite different, and cannot be reconciled with each other. Either Peter Spear will have to choose to ignore the official timeline(though he'll contradict his own books and and what was established in the manuals/strategy guides) to use yours, or adapt your game to the official timeline. There is no middle ground, either way something gets contradicted.

Quote
Thus Rosella's early marriage age may indicate that Daventry is sparsely populated.  Then again marriage or betrothal among European aristocracy were commonly very young because nobody wanted to wait for the political advantages marriage brought, so it is remotely possible I am reading way too much into this

Interesting information. But you say european aristoracy was how young? Cause 20(the age he was son about to turn according to KQ7) is pretty late i'm sure by standard's in most places back then right?
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on September 11, 2006, 10:06:39 PM
Quote
Interesting information. But you say European aristocracy was how young? Cause 20(the age he was son about to turn according to KQ7) is pretty late I'm sure by standard's in most places back then right?

  If you mean betrothed people were hitched before they were born in extreme cases.  ;)  Usually 14-17 for females IIRC (and I may not). That was particularly true in the plague days. Men were older, in the 20-early 30s range.  I recall reading that a girl of 20 was considered an "ancient virgin" in 18thc N. America but in Europe a marriage age of 30's was not uncommon in that time frame.  I'll try to look through my books soon and I can give some more definite numbers.  ;D
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Deloria on September 21, 2006, 11:00:41 AM
*revives* AFAIK, it always depended when it was most adventageous. They were far more easy to annul if both parties were still young, that's not to say betrothals weren't broken often (especially if doweries failed). But IIRC males were usually married in their twenties or thirties and preferred teenaged or brides in their early twenties.
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on September 21, 2006, 11:06:06 AM
Humm. The best I could come up with was a man in 18thc America lamenting that his daughter was an 'old maid', so to speak, at 20.  That was in mid-18thc Virginia. So Rosella (or her mother) wanting her to marry pre-20 is certianly well within pre-industrial standards.  I read somthing about marrige ages in 18thc UK being more like 30 for both parties, but I'll have to look that up.  ::)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Deloria on September 21, 2006, 11:22:27 AM
Ok, I should have read through all of the posts a lot more carefully...:P Sorry about that. I was thinking more along the lines of sixtienth and seventienth century Europe.
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on September 21, 2006, 12:38:47 PM
You are fine.  :) I'm just bringing up 18thc America since it is what I knw best, but 17thc europe is no less topical.  :)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Baggins on September 22, 2006, 01:25:23 PM
Quote
So Rosella (or her mother) wanting her to marry pre-20 is certianly well within pre-industrial standards.


It was a matter of her marrying when she reached 20, "marriable age" according to KQ7 strategy guide.
Title: Re: The Newest New Word Association Game
Post by: Petra Rocks on September 27, 2006, 01:34:29 PM
incorrect spelling ;)

Would you like علاء الدي better?  ;D
Title: Re: The Newest New Word Association Game
Post by: Yonkey on September 27, 2006, 02:23:48 PM
Nah, I was just saying the first thing that came to mind. :)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on September 27, 2006, 02:46:02 PM
Woot! My thread is a sticky!  ::)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on September 27, 2006, 02:48:41 PM
Ahh sorry about that.  The merged spam affected this thread's sticky status. ;P
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on September 27, 2006, 07:37:23 PM
Awwww.... you didn't do it because you all luv me?  :'(   :raf: * Is feeling goofy  :P*
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Yonkey on September 27, 2006, 08:34:15 PM
Awww, we love you enough to spam you. :)

XD
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on October 01, 2006, 09:20:52 AM
Quote
It was a matter of her marrying when she reached 20, "marriable age" according to KQ7 strategy guide.

 I tend to to think widespread early marriage as indicacting a low standard of livng and high birth rate.  But if teen is pre-marrgiable, so to speak, then that would be relativly late marriage.  Trying to marry at an exact age, 20 in this case, is not somthing I am aware of any earth culture doing, but then this isn't earth.  :suffer: Might it imply arranged marriges to some extent? You could hardly count on falling in love in a given time frame. *wonders*
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on October 25, 2006, 10:04:56 PM
Pretend you never saw this atrocity of an explanation and use the decent one below.  :P
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on November 12, 2006, 12:42:32 PM
 *revives his thread, again*

 Third page and I have to triple post to revive it.  :P People seem to be avoiding me.  ::) I wonder why? May it's because


 I AM SERIOUSLY CRUGGED AND I HAVE A MAQUAHUIT!!!  :suffer: HEAD FOR THE HILLLLLLLLSSSS!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Deloria on November 12, 2006, 01:17:36 PM
XD That is so the next quote of the day. :P
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Rosella on November 14, 2006, 07:32:01 PM
So what does GPD stand for? :P
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Delling on November 14, 2006, 07:33:56 PM
GDP: gross domestic product
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on November 14, 2006, 08:06:40 PM
 *Looks back at post* I forgot I say it, d'oh.  ::) I'm sorry, my previous explanation did a very, very poor job of explaining.  :-[

  Delling is correct. GDP=Gross Domestic product.  It is basically is the total of all goods bought and sold in the economy.  :) Per capita GDP is the total value of goods bought and sold per person.  :) Thus, 'what is per capita GDP in Daventry' means basically 'how much stuff is bought and sold per person in Daventry'.  :)
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Deloria on February 06, 2007, 11:59:01 AM
Well homes in Tamir range from 1800 style fishing shanty up to victorian style mansion.
I maintain it looks more Edwardian than Victorian. ;P
Title: Re: Per capita GDP in Daventry, aka Petra strikes again
Post by: Petra Rocks on August 10, 2007, 10:04:43 AM
(http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/233/270913946efa38ec3d8jm5.jpg)

 What can I say? :P I get nostalgic easily.  :P