Some of the dialogue is making me :suffer: LOL...<3 Amy!
"'t is beyond his reach!"
Yep, it's in there. Found it yet?
Quote from: rudy on July 10, 2010, 03:51:26 PM
"'t is beyond his reach!"
Yep, it's in there. Found it yet?
I absolutely loved that line! And I like the narrator in general! Amy does a very good job narrating the game! Have you guys found the death sequence yet? I don't want to spoil anything... :suffer:
Quote from: rudy on July 10, 2010, 03:51:26 PM
"'t is beyond his reach!"
Yep, it's in there. Found it yet?
Oh my gosh, I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I got that line.
Still haven't found it. Is it inside or outside the castle? :P
Quote from: tessspoon on July 10, 2010, 07:06:15 PM
Still haven't found it. Is it inside or outside the castle? :P
Inside.
HA! Got it! :D
Quote from: tessspoon on July 10, 2010, 07:17:08 PM
HA! Got it! :D
Alright! Now see if you can find some of her other lines!
Oh, I've gotten a lot of them. Not all I'm sure, but a lot of good ones. ;D
I still haven't died in the castle yet. I've died elsewhere though. XD
I don't believe you can die in the castle...
Perhaps Oldbushie died of exhaustion, looking for that particular inventory item ;)
I was actually hoping myh back would break after repeatingly trying lifting the tree, but it didn't :-\
Quote from: rudy on July 10, 2010, 08:00:06 PM
Perhaps Oldbushie died of exhaustion, looking for that particular inventory item ;)
Is that a hint?
Quote from: B'rrr on July 10, 2010, 08:05:28 PM
I was actually hoping myh back would break after repeatingly trying lifting the tree, but it didn't :-\
I was hoping that I could use the magic map, but that it would fail on me and I'd get stuck in a magical world of nothingness...
Quote from: dark-daventry on July 10, 2010, 07:56:00 PM
I don't believe you can die in the castle...
Oh, I got confused what you meant by "inside" in an earlier post, you meant the "beyond his reach" line. XD I just love all the fine touches on this game.
I kind of wish I could die in the castle. Just a completely random but hilarious death. Graham falls off the balcony, or enters the kitchen when he shouldn't...
So is the death in the castle? On the Island of the Crown? or is it on one of the other islands?
I'll say this: Make sure you can resist the pull ;)
I've always paticularly enjoyed looking at the scenery.... especially around the Castle Gates....
I'm surprised that Graham can swim off the coast of the Island of the Sacred Mountain, without the Undertow getting him. It never worked that way for Alexander.
Did you try swimming in the water out a bit further beyond the boat?
Sure, I know he die out there, but in the original Alexander got pulled out the moment he barely stepped out into the water. He wasn't allowed to 'swim' at all. It pulled him right off his feet and out to sea.
Quote from: Baggins on July 11, 2010, 09:55:06 AM
Sure, I know he die out there, but in the original Alexander got pulled out the moment he barely stepped out into the water. He wasn't allowed to 'swim' at all. It pulled him right off his feet and out to sea.
I think we've learned something new today. Alexander is a much worse swimmer than Graham is. ::)
Hmm, not quite, did you notice how well Alexander swam back in KQ3, :). For someone who had been stuck up in Manannan's house all of his life? I mean able to outrun sharks (if he's lucky).
We are hit over the head multiple times by the narrator (Guidebook and whatever), that swimming in the Green Isles is impossible :p. That the undertow will get anyone, and pull them out to sea. You are only lucky if you get washed into shore :p...
Oh, I get what you mean now. And Alexander was swimming in calm water on a nice day, whereas Graham's swimming in the middle of a horrible storm. :P
Quote from: Baggins on July 11, 2010, 10:13:02 AM
Hmm, not quite, did you notice how well Alexander swam back in KQ3, :). For someone who had been stuck up in Manannan's house all of his life? I mean able to outrun sharks (if he's lucky).
That had actually occurred to me before. Must be quite a natural!
If you look back at KQ2 Graham had difficulty swimming in the stormy and choppy water near the Enchanted Islands.
...or in KQ5 the ocean near the Mariner's hut or from Harpie's Island (and that water is relatively calm there, not even any undertow), ;).
...or the river in southern Serenia?
...or the waterfall near the sea in Serenia?
...or the rivers in Daventry?
Quote from: Baggins on July 11, 2010, 11:08:43 AM
If you look back at KQ2 Graham had difficulty swimming in the stormy and choppy water near the Enchanted Islands.
...or in KQ5 the ocean near the Mariner's hut or from Harpie's Island (and that water is relatively calm there, not even any undertow), ;).
...or the river in southern Serenia?
...or the waterfall near the sea in Serenia?
...or the rivers in Daventry?
Maybe Graham used the wand in KQV to grant himself unnatural swimming powers when you weren't watching.
He doesn't have a wand in TSL, and all my above examples are him drowning, due to his inability to swim in dangerous water (dangerous for different reasons, swiftness, too cold, etc.). He's just not a very good swimmer in KQV, :p (due to the environmental dangers)...
The Dangerous Currents around Green Isles are different kind of beast. Essentially the most dangerous water seen in the King's Quest series since the waters near the Enchanted Island. So dangerous that KQ6 gives you plenty of warnings, to avoid it. Since its impossible to swim in, and the undertow will pull you out to sea, and then under the sea. Most people end up dieing and becoming the zombies that wander the Realm of the Dead, heh heh. Very few are are lucky to survive by being washed up on the shore of the Isle of the Crown.
Quote from: Baggins on July 11, 2010, 02:34:51 PM
He doesn't have a wand in TSL, and all my above examples are him drowning, due to his inability to swim in dangerous water (dangerous for different reasons, swiftness, too cold, etc.). He's just not a very good swimmer in KQV, :p (due to the environmental dangers)...
The Dangerous Currents around Green Isles are different kind of beast. Essentially the most dangerous water seen in the King's Quest series since the waters near the Enchanted Island. So dangerous that KQ6 gives you plenty of warnings, to avoid it. Since its impossible to swim in, and the undertow will pull you out to sea, and then under the sea. Most people end up dieing and becoming the zombies that wander the Realm of the Dead, heh heh. Very few are are lucky to survive by being washed up on the shore of the Isle of the Crown.
I didn't say he had a wand in TSL. He could have done it in KQV when you weren't looking. "When you weren't looking" - key words there.
He used his wand, so he could drown? Huh?
He simply fails at swimming in KQ5. Either by being pulled by river currents, or because the water is too cold.
He failed at swimming in KQ5 in swift rivers as well. He could swim in the calm lakes however. His swim skill decent in Kolyma, mostly the non-poisoned lakes. He could even swim pretty well in the ocean, only a few screens before he gets irrevocably lost. But he was in tropics, the water was nice.
The same couldn't be said once he made it to the enchanted islands... The water is turbulent and stormy with currents nearly the same as the Green Isles. He is pulled down almost instantly if he attempts to swim in the crimson sea.
over the years he grew some lovehandles that helped him float better!
The boat blocks the undertow.
Quoteover the years he grew some lovehandles that helped him float better!
Remember the fat sailor/pirate zombie in the Realm of the Dead, ;). :suffer: :suffer:
QuoteThe boat blocks the undertow.
Now now, undertows go under boats, a boat wouldn't block an undertow :p... Also, he was to the side of the boat, not between the boat and the shore :p... That is he was still between the shore and the sea.
I think the only answer, is Graham is a genie like Shamir (Shamir is the only character we have seen officially capable of swimming in the Dangerous Currents)!!! But if he was he should be able to teleport... and not need a a boat. j/k
I'm also joking about the boat thing, that's just totally bogus.
Quote from: Baggins on July 11, 2010, 03:06:06 PMHe used his wand, so he could drown? Huh?
He simply fails at swimming in KQ5. Either by being pulled by river currents, or because the water is too cold.
So he could SWIM, duh! He fails so much at swimming in KQ5 that he used the wand at the end of the game to make himself the best swimmer in the UNIVERSE. It's so obvious. I don't see why you don't understand! ::)
LOL, Baggins, only you could start a debate on how there's conflicting evidence of who's a better swimmer, Graham or Alexander!
they did not end up at the same beach did they? didn't Alexander came from the south? not the north, he went up the cliffs of logic, Graham took the stairs. perhaps the current is stronger to the south then it is to the north.
Thought there was a line saying something about the stairs being where the cliffs of logic used to be though.
Ya, if you stair at the beach it says it was once the cliffs of logic, and they carved them away recently.
QuoteWhat was a nearly insuperable set of puzzles known as the Cliffs of Logic, has now been replaced with a grand staircase winding its way up the mountain side leading to the city of the Winged Ones.
Actually there is an inconsistency, here, in that in the official material, the Cliffs of Logic were on the southside of hte island. In TSL they have their former location in the north, near this new "Thorn Bay". ???
Does it actually say which side of the island the map deposits a person onto? I mean, it appears to be the south but do we really have any means of knowing that?
Yush, that is what I said! they came from opposite sides of the island, thus a different current, so they quite possibly both suck at swimming!
(didn't got the line ingame about the cliffs of logic changed to the stairs and as baggings pointed out would be inconsistent but that is irrelevent for the swimming discussion at hand! ;))
Quote from: crayauchtin on July 11, 2010, 05:11:56 PM
Does it actually say which side of the island the map deposits a person onto? I mean, it appears to be the south but do we really have any means of knowing that?
Think it's from the Companion.
Ya, its only hinted in the game, its confirmed in the companion.
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100712001004/kingsquest/images/e/e5/IsleofthesacredmountainKQ6.jpg)
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091206004014/kingsquest/images/6/6c/Isleofthesacredmountain.jpg)
Speaking of inconsistencies concerning the islands, geography of the islands (i.e. mountain ranges), in TSL don't really match up with the mountain ranges shown on the map in KQ6... but I digress, LOL. Derek's maps don't really match up with the ingame KQ6 geography either (highly stylistic). Granted what we can see of the surface of isle (catacomb door/mountain and the Sacred Mountain in the distance) doesn't really match the KQ6 map geography either (and is somewhat closer to Derek's version).
As for the idea that "currents were bad" everywhere around the islands, and wouldn't allow swimming. You can find that during diologue in the game, the Guidebook, and the companion.
Well yes, the currents are bad everywhere, but at some parts they might be worse then others. that Graham can swim a little bit off the north shore of Isle of the Sacred Mountains doesn't imply he is a better swimmer, because if he goes a bit futher off he won't survive it anyways. maybe if he tried the same off the south shore he would be caught in the current the moment he started to swim, just like Alex.
Except, as its stated in the game, that said location on the north shore is supposed to be the same location as the Cliffs of Logic according to TSL's story (the inconsistency of its location between the games/sources is irrelevent).
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100711233454/kingsquest/images/0/0f/Deadlywater.jpg)
Note that in this picture Alexander is at the the point of no return, and is about to have his legs ripped from under him. he's standing in up to his hip.
Note that the "warning" about the currents starts about the exact moment he steps into the water.
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100711234120/kingsquest/images/1/10/Dangerouswater2.jpg)
Graham pretty much swims way far past the point of no return, and is in a place he can't even stand up in. Actually notice that when he stands up in the water, he's actually just about where the point of no return was in KQ6. Graham's warning, is actually way, way past the point of no return in deep, swimmable water.
As for currents in real life, my experience on islands (and geology), and I've lived on several, is that the outer beaches of islands (that are exposed to the main ocean) tend to be far more treacherous than the inner channel portions of the island chain. The inner channel tends to slow currents down, whereas currents are free to move without obstruction on the outer edges of the islands. But this would be looking into things too deeply for KQ, LOL.
In anycase, the "Companion", placed the main Dangerous Currents on the outer edges of the islands surrounding the islands. Showing particulary more choppy water up to the north/west of the islands. :)
Wow I really miss the cliffs. As others have said something to do there to convince the winged guards to carry you to your audience would have made a big difference.
Quote from: Baggins on July 11, 2010, 05:46:16 PM
Except, as its stated in the game, that said location on the north shore is supposed to be the same location as the Cliffs of Logic according to TSL's story (the inconsistency of its location between the games/sources is irrelevent).
That is just a different point of view, on what you focus on;
I look at the beach, where they appreach the isle from, and one is north and one is south, which is true, thus they are at a different location from my point of view, thus different currents.
You say they they are both at the cliff of logic, which is true, thus the beach is the same from your point of view, thus the current is the same.
I was referring to the quote in TSL, that states that it was the former Cliffs of Logic.
Unless your saying from your point of view were "two Cliffs of logic"? :p...
In anycase, in various sources, its implies that the outer edges of the islands probably have the worst currents. The kind that will take a ship down almost instantly, with whirlpools that appear out of nowhere. Let alone people. Its the location of the Rocky Shoals, that actually intensify the currents effects :p...
Quote from: Baggins on July 11, 2010, 05:59:41 PM
Unless your saying from your point of view were "two Cliffs of logic"? :p...
yus, only in TSL they do imply it is the same cliffs of logic, but since it is a different side there has to be two! who would have thought those crazy buggers! they do like their puzzles!
Quote from: Baggins on July 11, 2010, 05:59:41 PM
In anycase, in various sources, its implies that the outer edges of the islands probably have the worst currents. The kind that will take a ship down almost instantly, with whirlpools that appear out of nowhere. Let alone people. Its the location of the Rocky Shoals, that actually intensify the currents effects :p...
Aye, I can understand that, but I was under the impression that in bays (as in the bay where the
Queen sails to and drop Graham) the current often is a bit calmer, could be wrong though
Shame, that KQ6/Guidebook/companion lore, states there was only one "Cliffs of Logic" (granted that the name does imply pluralism), LOL.
QuoteAye, I can understand that, but I was under the impression that in bays (as in the bay where the Queen sails to and drop Graham) the current often is a bit calmer, could be wrong though
Actually, depends on the type of bay, and the angle of the current, when it passes into or near the bay. In real life, some intensify currents, and others diffuse the current.
Where the northside is located though, the big ass wind cloud that's blowing the currents towards the islands, is in that general direction right into the bay, :p... That would probably be pretty bad. Currents have a tendency to reflect back, when they hit a shoreline head on (perpendicular reflection), and that's the kind of thing that causes the worst types of undertows. That being said, undertows are usually the least of your worries in real life... Its the long shore currents and rip currents that are more dangerous if IIRC. Although you can get out of a rip current by swimming perpendicular to it (until you are out of its area of effect, several hundred feet), never try to swim against a rip current (you'll never overcome it, and lose energy trying). What occurs in KQ6, actually seems to be a mixture of undertow and rip currents (but one implied to completley surround the island, unlike real-life ones that tend to be just be a couple of hundreed feet to a mile across).
QuoteUndertow
Usually, this flow is dispersed along the shore and moves lakeward in the lower half of the water column beneath the waves with the highest velocities close to the lakebed between the breakers and shore. Under mild conditions with small to moderate waves (less than two feet high to three feet high), this return flow is not usually a problem for agile swimmers and waders, except sometimes for small children. The undertow is strongest when the waves are high and approaching nearly perpendicular to shore.
Oh my goodness!!!! Such attention to detail and yet... no one has bothered to consider the fact that there was a magical tempest brewing during TSL. Could it be possible that the effects of such a mighty storm could affect the normally treacherous waters surrounding the Isle of the Sacred Mountain???
Sometimes it helps to think outside the box folks and not be so literal!
Oh por favor, you've had time to sit and think about it, you! We lesser beings have only had a day to speculate!
True.... but I still am no closer to figuring out the identity of the stranger in the City Square.... so there! :)
Maybe the tide's just in when Graham goes but when Alexander was there it was going out. I'm trying to keep this simple.
Yeah, I like your way, Wilco. :yes:
Oberonqua is just trying to be diffiult with me. ;)
I like the way you think, Weldon! :)
QuoteOh my goodness!!!! Such attention to detail and yet... no one has bothered to consider the fact that there was a magical tempest brewing during TSL. Could it be possible that the effects of such a mighty storm could affect the normally treacherous waters surrounding the Isle of the Sacred Mountain???
Sometimes it helps to think outside the box folks and not be so literal!
A vile tempest that's supposed to make travel on the sea even worse than normal? For the reason why they are forced to stay on the Isle of the Mists?
QuoteMaybe the tide's just in when Graham goes but when Alexander was there it was going out. I'm trying to keep this simple.
That would actually have little affect on the undertow aspects of the island. Probably make things worse, in the fact that it would put the undertow/rip currents closer to the shore.
Quote from: Baggins on July 12, 2010, 01:53:42 AM
QuoteOh my goodness!!!! Such attention to detail and yet... no one has bothered to consider the fact that there was a magical tempest brewing during TSL. Could it be possible that the effects of such a mighty storm could affect the normally treacherous waters surrounding the Isle of the Sacred Mountain???
Sometimes it helps to think outside the box folks and not be so literal!
A vile tempest that's supposed to make travel on the sea even worse than normal? For the reason why they are forced to stay on the Isle of the Mists?
It's called balance my friend. It stands to reason that if the tempest is at it's strongest in one area... it could indeed be calmer in another area.
Or perhaps as Wilco says, perhaps the tide is in. Either way.... you don't have to be so literal. There could be an absolutely normal and plausible reason for why Graham is able to swim in the water in front of the Cliffs of Logic when his son could not.
Or perhaps the designers just didn't think it would be appropriate for a race of flying humans to build a dock on their island and therefore decided that the currents wouldn't be so bad in front of the Cliffs of Logic (and therefore exercizing creative license).
Me... I'm more than happy to go with the flow (no pun intended). If Graham can swim in a place where Alexander could not... I'm going to go with the flow... because ultimately there are many reasons for why that is possible.
If the tide was in, that would actually make undertow/rip currents closer to shore, not eliminate it. That being said if the tide was actually up, it should actually be higher up the beach. Probably up to the steps. What we see in KQ6 and TSL, is a beach that's about the same size in both games, with the limits of the area that you could stand in the water, being about the same distance from the shore it was in KQ6.
But hey, really this is something that you should have explained in the game. Because how would people know that it would be safe to jump into the water? When everyone who talks about the water in KQ6, warns Alexander not to go swimming, and to be careful around the water. First rule of thumb, if you know the water is dangerous to begin with, you don't just start jumping into it to test to see if it would be safe to jump into when things appear to be even worse.
Infact, most people's knowledge is that the "tempests" (which are often magical in nature) that rise up from nowhere around the islands are usually very dangerous for ships, and people alike. It's the kinda of thing that took out Derek Karlavaegen's ship, and even the same kind of thing that took out Alexander's ship. So the first thing people would be thinking, is this wouldn't be the best time to jump into the water, of any days in general.
Would you eat a poisonous plant (that everyone knows is poisonous), and would normally kill you, to see if you would survive because conditions were different? Would you yourself swim in an area that is known for being treacherous even in best of weather, worse in the worst weather, just to see if you could survive?
We shouldn't have to be runnig mental gymnastics in order to explain, a descrepency. Even if speculation can be made to try to explain it away.
try touching the torch in Graham's room ::) :suffer:
Quote from: Baggins on July 12, 2010, 02:19:41 AM
If the tide was in, that would actually make undertow/rip currents closer to shore, not eliminate it.
But hey, really this is something that you should have explained in the game. Because how would people know that it would be safe to jump into the water? When everyone who talks about the water in KQ6, warns Alexander not to go swimming, and to be careful around the water. First rule of thumb, if you know the water is dangerous to begin with, you don't just start jumping into it to test to see if it would be safe to jump into when things appear to be even worse.
Infact, most people's knowledge is that the "tempests" (which are often magical in nature) that rise up from nowhere around the islands are usually very dangerous for ships, and people alike. It's the kinda of thing that took out Derek Karlavaegen's ship, and even the same kind of thing that took out Alexander's ship. So the first thing people would be thinking, is this wouldn't be the best time to jump into the water, of any days in general.
Would you eat a poisonous plant (that everyone knows is poisonous), and would normally kill you, to see if you would survive because conditions were different? Would you yourself swim in an area that is known for being treacherous even in best of weather, worse in the worst weather, just to see if you could survive?
We shouldn't have to be runnig mental gymnastics in order to explain, a descrepency. Even if speculation can be made to try to explain it away.
Who told Graham the waters around the Green Isles were dangerous? Surely Hassan would have mentioned that small little detail to Graham upon reaching the Isle of the Sacred Mountain... him being the local expert on the ways of the sea and all. Don't you think Hassan would have provided Graham a safer means of reaching the island shore if he was concerned about the undertow? Or do you think Hassan so cold and callous as to not care if the father of his king was killed due to his inaction?
No Baggins... the only one running through mental gymnastics here is you... trying desperately to poke holes in something where there are no holes.... referencing documents you yourself have said contain inaccuracies and should not be relied upon in an attempt to validate your stance.
I have mainly just referencing KQ6 game, and KQ6 Guidebook mostly actually (straight up Jane Jensen).. But if you are trying to ignore documents, and are claiming they are "innacurate", well... Then we know what you think of that previous game. :suffer: :suffer: :suffer: Actually it was Hassan, was one of the characters warned about treacherous nature of the waters in KQ6. But I guess you are saying that what he said was "wrong". In anycase we agree that your game is inconsistent/different than other King's Quest material (for whatever reasons), by your own admission that it is different than other games/manuals/companion (as you say 'inaccuracies'), etc.
I don't know what the Companion says about the water specifically actually, so I've been avoiding referencing it directly. I did toss up the map though, for people who were interested (but that has little to do with the subject of the water).
QuoteOr do you think Hassan so cold and callous as to not care if the father of his king was killed due to his inaction
Oh, I don't know about TSL's Hassan, it has already established him to first act like he has seen more gold in his life than he's ever seen ever (when Graham shows him the bag of coins), then quickly act like its not enough, like he needs even more, LOL. Greedy bugger. :suffer: :suffer: :suffer:
He also seemed to be enjoying himself watching Graham jump into the water. Hmm. If he offs Graham, and claims he was lost accidently, then he might get away with the fact that he cheated Graham out of that much gold (without Alexander finding out). If Alexander dies, well, he'll never find out will he? Its a perfect scheme. ;D :suffer: :suffer: :suffer:
Okay, guys. Let's drop this before things get any more heated and I'm forced to lock the thread. If you want to talk about "hidden gems", as is the topic's title, then do so.
It got mentioned elsewhere but not here I think--anyone try clicking the hand and eye on the bonsai tree? :)
yus, tis definatly in my top 3 narrator comments of episode 1 ;)
I must go back and replay episode 1 for the third or fourth time now to catch all of these lines I'm missing!