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The Royal Archives => TSL General Archives => Topic started by: Cez on July 16, 2010, 03:35:25 AM

Title: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Cez on July 16, 2010, 03:35:25 AM
There seems to be a great divide between the people that like the long narrations and those who doesn't. So, the solution to me really isn't to just shorten the narrations because we would take that away from those that enjoy it.

I'm thinking of a choice that would please both players. At the beginning of the game, you choose whether you want the short narration version or the long narration version. I can easily trim down the narrations and create a "short" version for them.

My question for those that don't like the long narrations is the next: The one downside that I can see to cutting off the long narrations is that, on those narrations that have a moving camera attached to them, you would not see the full "cinematic" experience of the camera that was created for it, but it would cut off short. Do you mind the narrations as much when there's a moving camera to them?

Obviously, we would probably leave some of them, for example, the one on the guard dog statue since that's a good one, but for most things you would now get a single short paragraph instead.

Feedback is appreciated :)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: StormSpirit86 on July 16, 2010, 05:06:08 AM
I don't mind long narrations personally, making a short option would be ok so people could go with that instead, as long as it doesn't make the wait for Ep2 longer of course  ;)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: SurfnSwells80 on July 16, 2010, 06:28:03 AM
I personally do not mind the long narration. I was wondering though, if you would cut the narration short, would it be audio or would only text be displayed and the cut scene would be gone? If there would be audio, why not add additional silence to the end of the short narration to give the player the ability to see the whole scene?
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: auroraambria on July 16, 2010, 06:56:01 AM
In radio, they take out the breaths and shorten the time by just taking out some of the silence. sometimes it's a question of the former but sometimes those pauses are on purpose for dramatic effect.

Just a thought and  probably a lot more work than you want. My two cents.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 16, 2010, 06:56:57 AM
with the short option, giving people some minimal camera control?
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: SurfnSwells80 on July 16, 2010, 07:22:41 AM
with the short option, giving people some minimal camera control?

That's not a bad idea, but I know with 3D mapping, certain elements of the area you are walking around may not be a complete object. Giving even some camera control could make these areas visible when they shouldn't. If it is easy to lock down the degree in which the camera can move and the angles, I think this would be a great idea and give even more immersion to the game.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 16, 2010, 08:00:20 AM
Even if it camera control was limited to a toggle to switch between several different prechosen angles, it would add to the immersion.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: SurfnSwells80 on July 16, 2010, 08:24:28 AM
Even if it camera control was limited to a toggle to switch between several different prechosen angles, it would add to the immersion.

So, something like the interactive moments in movies? if there is something to look at or a separate/alternate scene, something will pop up you can click to see the additional content?
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: MusicallyInspired on July 16, 2010, 08:48:25 AM
I like the idea. I wouldn't mind a lot of narration the odd time, but just not most of the time. Regarding cutting camera movements short, where are such examples of camera movement bound to narration? And are they very numerous (not just in this episode but future ones)? If they're not plentiful then I probably wouldn't mind those staying. If they are plentiful, then shortening them with some limited camera control might be best, assuming the controls are intuitive enough. Or maybe you could just leave the camera timing along while the narration is short (unless it's programmed to stop the camera movement when the narration audio track ends) and then just have players press Escape or something if they don't want to watch the entire camera movement.

I'm glad to see this is being worked on. And honestly, if it moves back the releases a little bit who cares? If it has the chance of being more appealing to more folks what's the slightly longer wait in comparison to how long we've all waited thus far? I say take the time to do it right instead of adhering strictly to release dates no matter what.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 16, 2010, 08:51:33 AM
Quote
So, something like the interactive moments in movies? if there is something to look at or a separate/alternate scene, something will pop up you can click to see the additional content?
 

 Ya, something like that. If you have played Assassin's Creed, it kinda had moments that allowed you do that (although it also has full camera control).
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: theroachyjay on July 16, 2010, 09:15:39 AM
I love the long narration because I feel it really brings me into the world and I understand everything, irrelevant to the story or not, it makes me feel more connected and the game more fun.

I do like the idea someone mentioned on another thread where perhaps you could continue to move around without the narration cutting off, though.  For the non-cinematic moments, of course.  That way, you would still get all that neat extra stuff without really hindering your gameplay ability.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: daventry on July 16, 2010, 09:35:46 AM
Amazing how some People Complain about the Long Narration, now they say Leave it be. HA HA HA
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: tessspoon on July 16, 2010, 09:45:41 AM
I love the long narration because I feel it really brings me into the world and I understand everything, irrelevant to the story or not, it makes me feel more connected and the game more fun.
:yes:

Sounds like a good compromise to me. :)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Lambonius on July 16, 2010, 09:58:19 AM
Amazing how some People Complain about the Long Narration, now they say Leave it be. HA HA HA

Actually, nobody's saying that.  The people who are saying "leave it be," weren't criticizing it in the first place.

To the point of the topic:  I think it's a reasonable solution.  

I think giving players the ability to continue to move around while most narrations play (excluding the ones that have camera movements attached to them) would probably help, too, as others have said, since having to stop and wait for a long narration to play out can be rather immersion-breaking.  

I think Zeek hit the nail on the head with his assessment over at IA--it's a matter of trying to cram too much backstory into the game in a place where it doesn't necessarily belong (narration), since revealing backstory is not the primary function of a narrator in games like this.  Leaving some if it in isn't a huge issue, since the overabundance was part of the problem.  So as long as there aren't an inordinate amount of them, I would be inclined to think you could probably get away with leaving the few cinematic camera narrations untouched, provided the prose isn't too overindulgent or melodramatic, which was also part of a lot of people's issues with it.  Here is an example:  Using the look icon on a particular tree garners a line like this: "The King can somehow relate; inside of him a wild storm has begun to rage, harrowing his every nerve, at every inch of a man who has looked at evil in the eye before and won, yet has never found a way to put it to an end for good."  Not exactly the simple storybook writing we've come to expect from a King's Quest game.  ;)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Flubly on July 16, 2010, 10:57:25 AM
If you're going to do this, you need to hire another writer who will edit the narration.  You need someone who would prefer to have the short option on, otherwise it might be dispassionately made.  I hope everyone who wants the shorter option would agree with me, that we don't want simply a shorter, dryer narration.  We want a different style of writing altogether.  A minimalist, implicative style of narration.

It wouldn't be too hard, I think.  You'd just give the writer all the narration lines, and he'd basically "translate" and edit them.  After that draft is done, you'd discuss with him your concerns and do any rewrites that need to be done.

Again, get someone who WANTS the shorter narration option, someone who really believes in that writing style as an art.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Haids1987 on July 16, 2010, 12:24:06 PM
Make a poll and see how people vote. :yes:

I personally like the long narrations.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: B'rrr on July 16, 2010, 12:35:20 PM
The long narrations will still be there Haids, just an option so you can choose between them in game.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: liggy002 on July 16, 2010, 12:35:42 PM
I prefer the longer narrations because it adds to the overall gameplay experience as others have said.  The option to have a shorter narration as an option is a good idea.  I would prefer not to have it at all since it would be extra work and would push the back the release schedule.  If you don't think the longer narrations are that big of an issue, you could always release the game as scheduled and then go back and work on it to offer the shorter narration option.  I just think that a lot of people are really impatient at this phase and it might be a good idea to release the second episode as soon as possible and then work on the narration.  As far as the remaining episodes, others expect that those might take longer so you could fix the narrations before releasing it.  Besides, with the longer narration option in the game for the initial release it might give players the impression that the game is longer since they will be playing it longer.  This could serve to offset the short Episode 1.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Haids1987 on July 16, 2010, 12:36:35 PM
The long narrations will still be there Haids, just an option so you can choose between them in game.
No, I got it, it's just that it'd be interesting to see how people vote.  Then he could see how necessary it really would be to have long/short narrations. :)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: chucklas on July 16, 2010, 01:09:50 PM
I like the idea for the option.  I found myself wanting quite a few of them to stop.  Sometimes it just doesn't make sense to go on and on because you tried to see if there was significance to what appeared to be a hole in a tree for example.  I just want to know if anything is in there, not more story...etc.  I think the idea to be able to go with long/short sounds perfect.  That way you wont have people complaining about it one way or another. 

I also agree that if it means it takes a little more time to release the upcoming episodes, so be it.  I would rather have better game than something not as good more quickly.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Lambonius on July 16, 2010, 01:15:56 PM
I agree.  Take all the time you need.  You guys came this far, might as well release the most polished possible product.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Cez on July 16, 2010, 01:20:51 PM

 Not exactly the simple storybook writing we've come to expect from a King's Quest game.  ;)

I want to be very clear in one thing. The tone of this game is very different than the tone from previous King's Quest and that's a conscious decision that was made from day 1 and that will still stick. Going into Graham's mind, the more psychological aspect of the stories,  delving into the traumas left by Manannan on Alexander, those are all things that are in this game and that will not go away. I didn't try to write like Roberta Williams would because that's simply not my style, and trying to fully mimic it would have been a disaster. So, I took it, I understood it, and I wrote it in a way that I would feel happy about it. It was a very conscious decision I took, and I'm glad I did because I believe artists should always hold their own integrity over everything else, even when approaching somebody else's IP.

The reason I'm thinking about removing the narrations is for a gameplay reason, not because I want to now change the tone of the game. I'm not Roberta Williams, I do not write like Roberta Williams, and I would not dare to try and mimic Roberta Williams. Instead, I offer you my (and Katie's) writing, in a very self-conscious decision of telling a more mature plot, and having it fit the teenage fantasy model more than the fairytale storybook.  
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: naokiyukimura on July 16, 2010, 01:23:38 PM
Hmm... this would definitely be an interesting idea. Although, instead of shorter, what I would like to see is an option to have  the "sassy" remarks turned on or off. This kind of goes into preference, though, but being able to control the "tone" of the narrator would be nice to see.

I know these games are already recorded, but maybe you could have "dialog only (no voice)" options for those who want to play with a more "neutral" tone when exploring? That way I can click away and not have to worry about slightly-rude remarks.

As for the narration (stories, whatever) itself, as long as I can click/skip though it with my mouse, I personally don't need an option to make it longer or shorter.

Just my two cents ~
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: KatieHal on July 16, 2010, 01:36:06 PM
Naoki--there is an option already for turning off the narrator's voice in the Audio section of the options menu.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: naokiyukimura on July 16, 2010, 02:11:29 PM
Oh, yeah, I know you can turn the voice off ~ I was just commenting on I guess, how the dialog was being delivered. Like, if you did make changes to the narration, if you couldn't add voice to whatever-it-was you decided to add or subtract, you could always make an option to have that DIFFERENT narration option available without voice.

Like, if you wanted to add something to the game, voice-less narration changes would be an option - is what I meant. Anyways, its just a suggestion. ^_^
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: tessspoon on July 16, 2010, 02:29:55 PM
I want to be very clear in one thing. The tone of this game is very different than the tone from previous King's Quest and that's a conscious decision that was made from day 1 and that will still stick. Going into Graham's mind, the more psychological aspect of the stories,  delving into the traumas left by Manannan on Alexander, those are all things that are in this game and that will not go away.
Reason I love this game. <3
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: wilco64256 on July 16, 2010, 02:35:36 PM
I agree with tess, I love the increased insight into the thoughts and feelings of the characters.  This is one of the reasons I loved KQ6 the most of the series - I thought it gave the most in-depth look into what Alexander was actually thinking and feeling.  The other games were certainly plenty of fun, there were always puzzles to solve and things to accomplish, but I didn't feel connected to the characters in the other games as much as I did Alexander in 6.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Lambonius on July 16, 2010, 03:00:07 PM

 Not exactly the simple storybook writing we've come to expect from a King's Quest game.  ;)

I want to be very clear in one thing. The tone of this game is very different than the tone from previous King's Quest and that's a conscious decision that was made from day 1 and that will still stick. Going into Graham's mind, the more psychological aspect of the stories,  delving into the traumas left by Manannan on Alexander, those are all things that are in this game and that will not go away. I didn't try to write like Roberta Williams would because that's simply not my style, and trying to fully mimic it would have been a disaster. So, I took it, I understood it, and I wrote it in a way that I would feel happy about it. It was a very conscious decision I took, and I'm glad I did because I believe artists should always hold their own integrity over everything else, even when approaching somebody else's IP.

The reason I'm thinking about removing the narrations is for a gameplay reason, not because I want to now change the tone of the game. I'm not Roberta Williams, I do not write like Roberta Williams, and I would not dare to try and mimic Roberta Williams. Instead, I offer you my (and Katie's) writing, in a very self-conscious decision of telling a more mature plot, and having it fit the teenage fantasy model more than the fairytale storybook.  

Sorry.  I thought I was playing a King's Quest game, not Twilight.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: rev79 on July 16, 2010, 03:00:30 PM
Personally, if inputting shorter narrator dialogue is going to lengthen the delay of episode 2, then I don't want it. It's really not THAT much of an ordeal to listen to some speech. In some cases, it's actually very interesting.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: MusicallyInspired on July 16, 2010, 04:25:51 PM
What? So the people who don't have a problem with it can get it early while the other half of the community who wants it changed just has to suck it up? That's fair...
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Blackthorne on July 16, 2010, 05:44:11 PM
I think everything's just fine the way it is!  Forget all the haters!  They're just jealous.


Bt
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Jerminator on July 16, 2010, 05:57:28 PM
I smell a rat! I just s*** my pants  :suffer:
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: spinz on July 16, 2010, 06:13:08 PM
i didnt have a problem with the narrations. Sounds like shortening them creates alot more work. What happens when a narration thats several sentences long has some important information in more than one sentence? It cant just be shortened, it would have to be re-rerecorded and paraphrased entirely. I think you guys should stick with the work you have. You already gave people the option to play the narrated voice or not, i think thats enough.

i mean come on, if the narrations bother someone that much, just click through them. The game doesnt make you listen to them.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: MusicallyInspired on July 16, 2010, 06:32:44 PM
No, it's not enough. And you have no more right to it than I do. Just let them do it for all of us instead of just some of us. Do you really want to slice the KQ community right down the middle over this? There are certainly enough people who dislike it to make a difference. Everything is not hunky dory just because you say it is. There are plenty of people who dislike it and want an option. I'm one of them. They're not invalid and any less important than those who don't mind it.

The point everyone seems to miss is that we don't want to click through the narrations. That destroys half the point of playing an adventure game. We are rather forced to because we don't want to sit through so much pointless walls of text. There's a big difference. And it's a valid one.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: I_am_so_nifty on July 16, 2010, 07:08:13 PM
This seems to be the kind of issue that you are either for or against. First, I suggest that we see if the shortening option would even be possible to be implemented into the game. It seems that we do have enough people who would want it for the team to consider it. But, until we know if that's possible...

...It's kind of like Mask of Eternity. We can debate about it as much as we want to, but--at the moment for this issue, at least-- there's not much we can do about it.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Cez on July 16, 2010, 07:28:24 PM
It's easily doable and it's on the list of programming/design tasks. We'll do our best to get to it without compromising our schedules. I wouldn't have considered if it completely screwed up our schedules, but it really is an easy option to implement, and there seem to be enough people that would want to change it.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: KuroShiro on July 16, 2010, 07:48:16 PM
Yikes, if this arose partially from the thread I posted, then from looking here and other forums it seems I've started a bit of hostility -- that was not my intention so whoops.

On topic, I should note that when I posted some criticism of the writing style in the game, it was not for my own edification, but rather to try to help POS create the best game possible. I am a longtime fan of King's Quest, but I am not so devoted to the mythology as some people seem to be, so if you want to take the game in your own direction then I have no big problems with that as long as you call it what it is -- fan fiction.

I was never really talking about issues related to "Integrity" or whatever you choose to call it -- if you want to write a KQ psychological thriller then that is your prerogative -- I was simply pointing out that there is good writing and bad writing, and some of the writing in Episode 1 was poor. Certainly not all of it; much of the dialogue was very nicely composed and flowed naturally. However, there were many instances in the descriptive narrator text where the writing was simply poor stylistically, sometime using repetitive phrasing, or unnecessarily flowery prose. I don't even have a huge problem with narration being lengthy as long as it is well written. You would benefit greatly from a 3rd party editor, as does all writing. There is a reason virtually all professional authors have them.

Having an option to shorten narrations seems a bit like treating the symptoms rather than the cause. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it. If it compromises the feel of the game by mucking up cinematics, then I would say to just leave it. I would strongly suggest that you go through all the writing in the next episode before you release it though, and try to make it as good as possible.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: airman_dopey on July 17, 2010, 01:09:22 AM
Hey all. Don't usually post on the forums, but I've been a reader for years.

As far as the narrations go, you've pretty much said it Cez. This is your work. Do things the way you want to. People don't like it, they can play something else. If YOU want to shorten it, then go for it. But this is YOUR story that YOU are telling, not them. Most of us want to hear the final chapter in the King's Quest series in all its glory.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: MusicallyInspired on July 17, 2010, 01:36:14 AM
Sinister on the IA forums had an excellent solution that I'm surprised nobody here (me included) has thought of. Perhaps instead of keeping the long narrations as is, or even implementing an option to have either or, you could put in multiple interactions for ever object. The first response would be a simple answer. The more you click the more information you get until you can't get anymore information. This concept is definitely not new to adventure games and would be a welcome solution I think on both parts.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: rev79 on July 17, 2010, 02:49:50 AM
^I like this idea. I love in-depth descriptions, but only so much of it. Perfect solution.

Not sure how that could be implemented, though...
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Erpy on July 17, 2010, 03:37:32 AM
From a programming point of view, such a thing is easy. Whenever you click on a hotspot, a variable is upped and depending on the variable's value, a simple or extended description is given. I found Sinister's suggestion a very smart one as well...it's way more elegant than an option that has to be toggled. First time you click you get a normal description and subsequent times can yield backstory. Eventually it starts looping. Normal descriptions shouldn't be ordinary "It's a vase."-lines though. While background descriptions lost part of their function as visuals improved, they're still important to set the mood of a scene and even shortened ones should convey whatever atmosphere you want the environment to give off. Likewise, overly flowery prose can probably benefit from editing even if it takes 2 or 3 clicks on a hotspot to display.

(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Cez on July 17, 2010, 04:16:57 AM
The idea doesn't work with the way narrations are written. It would yield lose narrations and would require re-recording and re-editing which is something we are not doing at this point.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: MusicallyInspired on July 17, 2010, 08:49:54 AM
So...you weren't intending on rerecording anything in the first place? I don't want broken and chopped up narrations. That's no different than skipping the current ones manually (which I don't want to do). Honestly, who cares if it takes longer? It's been 8 years! Do this right. Get everything proper before it's considered final and is labeled for what it is. We can wait a little longer.

EDIT: Ok, how about this as a further compromise? If you won't rerecord the dialogue lines then why don't you have this option instead of chopping it up: either have an option to play it as it is now. The narrator will speak the current mile-long walls of text and half the people will be happy or at least content. The other option is to alter the dialogue to have multiple interactions that further explain the story or history or deeper facts or whatever the more you click on it. But without the narrator dictating it. This option would disable narrator speech and we'd get the short and sweet text.

Though, I really think you should rerecord everything and use multiple interactions instead of making it an option. That would please both sides. At least consider multiple interactions for your future (non-TSL) games. I'm honestly surprised nobody thought to do that during the 8-year development.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: chucklas on July 17, 2010, 10:35:52 AM
I agree.  If it has already taken 8 years.  You could go with what MI said and have the text option (as to not delay releasing the upcoming episodes) and then add in new narrations through a re-release of each episode down the line.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: liggy002 on July 17, 2010, 12:59:38 PM
Why not take a poll on your website and find out how many people want the shorter narrations?  Encourage everyone to participate.  If you find that it is a significant amount of people who want the shorter narrations, then you could do it.  Otherwise, if you are intent on pleasing all of the fans, you could just tackle the issue without a poll.  You can't please everybody but if you feel its a serious issue and its worth the extra time needed to put in the game then by all means do it.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Cez on July 17, 2010, 01:37:16 PM
They are already broken in chunks. We are not re-recording audio unless absolutely necessary. Instead of 3 or 4 paragraphs of narrations, you'll get one. Narrations normally have a good breaking point.

So for example, when looking at the vase, instead of:

These vases are fine antiquities indeed. Cassima told Graham that they were a gift from her grandfather to her mother. She was very little when they were placed in the castle, but still remembers the smile on Allaria's face when her grandfather stepped into the Main Hall, while servants brought the vases into the castle.

This narration is already chopped in 3 ways, wherever there's a period (we broke down all long narrations into smaller chunk as we were developing it). I'm just simply going to create a copy of this script where I remove the bigger chunks of the narrations, and just give you a simple rundown of it.

the short narration would be:

These vases are fine antiquities indeed.

That's what we can do, and what we'll do, if our current schedule allows.

Thanks everyone for your input!
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: spinz on July 17, 2010, 02:15:13 PM

Though, I really think you should rerecord everything and use multiple interactions instead of making it an option.

you think they should rework the entire script for a minor inconvenience for people that dont like clicking a couple extra times? I dont care for the long dialogue either, but i got over it fast. I cant comprehend it being worth any major rework. Because this wont be the last complaint a bunch of people have, the team cant just drop everything everytime people think an entire aspect of the game should get redone.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Hituro on July 17, 2010, 02:22:20 PM

I want to be very clear in one thing. The tone of this game is very different than the tone from previous King's Quest and that's a conscious decision that was made from day 1 and that will still stick. Going into Graham's mind, the more psychological aspect of the stories,  delving into the traumas left by Manannan on Alexander, those are all things that are in this game and that will not go away. I didn't try to write like Roberta Williams would because that's simply not my style, and trying to fully mimic it would have been a disaster. So, I took it, I understood it, and I wrote it in a way that I would feel happy about it. It was a very conscious decision I took, and I'm glad I did because I believe artists should always hold their own integrity over everything else, even when approaching somebody else's IP.

The reason I'm thinking about removing the narrations is for a gameplay reason, not because I want to now change the tone of the game. I'm not Roberta Williams, I do not write like Roberta Williams, and I would not dare to try and mimic Roberta Williams. Instead, I offer you my (and Katie's) writing, in a very self-conscious decision of telling a more mature plot, and having it fit the teenage fantasy model more than the fairytale storybook.  

I don't have anything against you Cez, and I love the story so far, but I don't see how having long winded narrations is an art choice.  If you didn't have them, the writing would still be different than Roberta Williams.  We're not asking for you to have it be the same as the King's Quest games, it's just that you need to understand, in story telling, you don't want to bore the audience with pointless excess.  For example, does the player really need a long narration about how Cassima used to play hide and seek just from looking at a pot?  The whole point of looking as something, is to get a description of what it is, not a story about how many people interacted with it over the past 20 years.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: dark-daventry on July 17, 2010, 02:28:49 PM
That's exactly why he's contemplating putting in a choice though. Frankly, I like the long narrations. I like getting all the backstory. As was stated in the first post of this thread, the community seems divided on the issue, which is why a choice is being offered. And the fact is that everything has already been recorded, and we can't re-record everything. And it would be a shame to waste all those audio clips that were so painstakingly recorded.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: rev79 on July 17, 2010, 03:06:29 PM
Quote
you think they should rework the entire script for a minor inconvenience for people that dont like clicking a couple extra times? I dont care for the long dialogue either, but i got over it fast. I cant comprehend it being worth any major rework. Because this wont be the last complaint a bunch of people have, the team cant just drop everything everytime people think an entire aspect of the game should get redone.

This.


Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: dark-daventry on July 17, 2010, 03:10:00 PM
Quote
you think they should rework the entire script for a minor inconvenience for people that dont like clicking a couple extra times? I dont care for the long dialogue either, but i got over it fast. I cant comprehend it being worth any major rework. Because this wont be the last complaint a bunch of people have, the team cant just drop everything everytime people think an entire aspect of the game should get redone.

This.

Can you please be a little more descriptive than simply stating "this"? To be honest, I don't know if you're agreeing or disagreeing with the quoted statement...
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: MusicallyInspired on July 17, 2010, 03:32:31 PM
you think they should rework the entire script for a minor inconvenience for people that dont like clicking a couple extra times? I dont care for the long dialogue either, but i got over it fast. I cant comprehend it being worth any major rework. Because this wont be the last complaint a bunch of people have, the team cant just drop everything everytime people think an entire aspect of the game should get redone.

This is not a minor inconvenience. It is a major issue that more than just a small minority are having problems with. It astonishes me to see people really talking down to those who are just speaking honestly as if it's some kind of sin. If that's all you're going to do about it then just forget it. Leave it the way it is for all I care. There's not much difference between it and your "solution."

There's seriously too much elitism and pretentious attitudes on this team and on these forums. So much so that I don't feel welcome to post. So I won't. Time will tell whether or not this was a good move, but I'm tired of arguing with all you blind followers about actually seeing my point rather than talking it down like I'm some silly little child. If this is how you treat constructive feedback you're going to reap the benefits eventually.

Enjoy your game.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: dark-daventry on July 17, 2010, 03:37:52 PM
Cesar posted this merely as a suggestion, not as a confirmed feature. If you have any ideas, we're more than willing to hear them.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: MusicallyInspired on July 17, 2010, 03:42:42 PM
No, you aren't. Many here posted some great ideas and they were all shot down by Cesar basically saying "This is what we're going to do if we're going to do anything and that's that."
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: wilco64256 on July 17, 2010, 03:46:48 PM
What elitism are you referring to anyway?  Cesar came out with what is a perfectly reasonable and quite effective solution to the long narration you're complaining about, and you turn around and call the team pretentious?  What other game company on the planet would even have given you the time of day?  You may not like this point, but the people complaining about the long narrations are in the minority, so Cesar and company aren't under any real obligation to help you guys out anyway.  And yet they are trying.

Nobody here has been rude to you, quite the contrary.  People have listened, read what you have written, tried to understand your point of view, and have offered their own in exchange.  There's no need for you to take other people's expression of their opinions personally.  That's definitely your choice if you decide to feel poorly, but the TSL team is trying to help make the game experience better for you and you're not exactly making that easy for them.

The post by spinz may have come across a little harshly, but your suggestion that the team redo all of the recording work simply isn't reasonable.  What you should have done was ignored spinz's post if it bothered you so much and focused on what Cesar wrote and his specific example of how the narrations would be shortened.  His idea should work just fine.

(Posted on: July 17, 2010, 05:43:44 PM)


Many here posted some great ideas

Like re-recording everything?  Sure, that would be effective but you've got to think about how long that would actually take.  A good idea here has to be both effective and relatively quick and easy to implement.  Do you have an idea that can top those requirements better than just getting shortened pieces of narration as described by Cesar?  If you do have an idea that's better than that the team is always more than willing to listen.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: KatieHal on July 17, 2010, 04:04:50 PM
MI: I'm sorry you feel that way, but do remember, not every person on these forums speaks for or is on the team. We have no control over other people's opinions or how they express them, and they have every right to express them, just the same as you.

Re-recording narrations is a LOT of work. And yes, we've waited 8 years to get this far, and we're almost done--we don't want to add in another lengthy delay for re-recording when we don't have to. Remember, our actors aren't all just down the street or something like that--they're all over the country, the world even, and getting recordings to the point of being implemented is a lengthy process even aside from the time it takes to record them.

We're doing our best here to find a compromise that could work for both those who like the narrations as they are, and those who would prefer they be shorter, without having to push back the game further. If we delayed every time we thought something wasn't absolutely perfect, the game would never come out. There's ALWAYS something that could be touched up or further refined--we have to draw the line and be satisfied at some point. 8 years seem like a good enough point to finally do that. ;)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Cez on July 17, 2010, 05:27:49 PM
you think they should rework the entire script for a minor inconvenience for people that dont like clicking a couple extra times? I dont care for the long dialogue either, but i got over it fast. I cant comprehend it being worth any major rework. Because this wont be the last complaint a bunch of people have, the team cant just drop everything everytime people think an entire aspect of the game should get redone.

This is not a minor inconvenience. It is a major issue that more than just a small minority are having problems with. It astonishes me to see people really talking down to those who are just speaking honestly as if it's some kind of sin. If that's all you're going to do about it then just forget it. Leave it the way it is for all I care. There's not much difference between it and your "solution."

There's seriously too much elitism and pretentious attitudes on this team and on these forums. So much so that I don't feel welcome to post. So I won't. Time will tell whether or not this was a good move, but I'm tired of arguing with all you blind followers about actually seeing my point rather than talking it down like I'm some silly little child. If this is how you treat constructive feedback you're going to reap the benefits eventually.

Enjoy your game.

Wait... I invited you to post your feedback, and we are approaching the problem. I could be ignoring it completely. You are the one acting unreasonably. It is either exactly your way or the highway? You can't come and impose a solution and then fly off calling the team pretentious and expect people to be fine with it.

Like I said, I listened. You are obviously not part of the team, so you don't know what it means to the team to re-record the narrations. You have absolutely no idea how the internal mechanics work, or what our narrator is up to these days, so please, do not say I'm just shutting ideas down just because I don't want to do exactly what 2 or 3 people are suggesting. (whatever the reasons behind them may be)

I already said it: we are listening, we appreciate your feedback, I requested it, I'm glad I did, I listened to all the solutions. You want shorter narrations, we'll provide that. But it's up to the team to decide what solution works best all elements considered, to which you probably only have 10% of the information. Let us decide and do not get mad at us for not choosing what you regard as the best solution, because when you add the rest of the information that you don't have access to, you'd probably agree as well it's not the best solution either. So, let us decide, we are already acting on the problem you brought to our table.

Thanks!
Cez

Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Cez on July 17, 2010, 05:30:26 PM
And with that said, I'm taking a step back from the community. I'll still keep an eye on it, post information, and maybe reply to a couple of topics, but I think I understand why normally creators do not directly get involved with the community.

So, I'll be down in my corner working to get a game into your hands!

Cez
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: B'rrr on July 17, 2010, 05:56:30 PM
Aww, don't go into hiding again Cez, was good to see you on the forums again (especially after episode 1 came out when there were less suffers  ;)). Most welcome your presence here and really appreciate the effort you put in this project. don't let a few disgrunted people get you down  :-\

No, you aren't. Many here posted some great ideas and they were all shot down by Cesar basically saying "This is what we're going to do if we're going to do anything and that's that."

what are all those ideas that are shot down then? people want less sassy and shorter narrations? The team is looking into it. People want more puzzles and longer episode? we have 4 episodes to come with that. people do not like the navigation, there has been talk about possible keyboard controls and I saw they are recruiting a navigation programmer, so that might imply they are looking into the navigational glitch in the main hall aswell.

So far most feedback that the team got is looking into. maybe not as much or in the way you like it, but they are doing something with it  :-\

There's seriously too much elitism and pretentious attitudes on this team and on these forums. So much so that I don't feel welcome to post. So I won't. Time will tell whether or not this was a good move, but I'm tired of arguing with all you blind followers about actually seeing my point rather than talking it down like I'm some silly little child. If this is how you treat constructive feedback you're going to reap the benefits eventually.

Enjoy your game.

I am really sorry that you feel unwelcome, I really do, but you got to understand that individual wishes or ideas can't always be granted exactly the way you want (heck, I wanted an island named after me, not going to happen either!). I do see your point actually, and although it is not an issue for me I can understand why it bothers you.  But there is actually no need to argue about points at all or trying to convince other people, you can just state your feedback, much like in this post (http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8912.0) and let the team look into it.

And remember, in the end it is the game they make, yes it is for us to play but they decide how they make it.

Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: spinz on July 17, 2010, 05:59:51 PM

There's seriously too much elitism and pretentious attitudes on this team and on these forums. So much so that I don't feel welcome to post. So I won't. Time will tell whether or not this was a good move, but I'm tired of arguing with all you blind followers about actually seeing my point rather than talking it down like I'm some silly little child. If this is how you treat constructive feedback you're going to reap the benefits eventually.


oh sure im pretentious alright, feel free to direct that one towards me. But blind follower? Lately I've been a scathing critic towards this project (as well as a follower since the very beginning). And iv been voicing my great displeasure on a variety of sites in the most blatant and unforgiving of fashions. But i support their decisions on this particular issue and leave my criticism mostly out of this site because i think they should finish what they started as they've pictured it. I think we owe them that much. The fact they are willing to alter the script at all is incredibly nice. You just cant please everyone. And when i do criticize, i save it for the things that matter most: there isnt a game yet with puzzles, and its the same release as 4 years ago. You want something to be mad about? thats far more worthy. But for now, all we can hope is that they can proceed with confidence. I dont want them to feel like they need to second guess things like this when theres much bigger fish to fry.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: oberonqa on July 17, 2010, 09:32:37 PM
Let's keep it nice and civil folks... I would really hate to see this thread get locked because some people can't express themselves in a civil manner.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Fierce Deity on July 17, 2010, 10:38:29 PM
I don't know if I would fit into the majority or the minority on this issue, but my opinion is probably also biased because of the fact that I am a KQ veteran. I like the story, the dialogue, the characters, etc. So the narration is a crucial element for me. I can understand why someone would want to skip these scenes of 'useless' information, but if they truly don't want to hear/see the narration, they can just skip it. If they don't want to hear the narration, they can skip it. I just don't think the issue is so great that it would require its own mode, and it may not even appeal to those who don't want a full explanation. If someone doesn't want to hear about Captain Saladin's ancestry, I don't think a shorter version would peak their interest any more so.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Hituro on July 17, 2010, 11:37:49 PM
And with that said, I'm taking a step back from the community. I'll still keep an eye on it, post information, and maybe reply to a couple of topics, but I think I understand why normally creators do not directly get involved with the community.

So, I'll be down in my corner working to get a game into your hands!

Cez

Cez, Keep the game how it is.  This is coming from a community member that doesn't like the long narrations.  But in all reality, this is your game not mine.  And even though everyone might not like every little detail about things, we still all love it.  Besides, I think I'd rather play with the full narration only because I don't want to miss out on anything.  I appreciate you taking the time to consider adjusting to make everyone happy, but in reality this is your masterpiece, not ours.  I've always learned that people tend to nit pick at everything :)  No game is 100% perfect, but it can still be 100% enjoyable :)  Besides, I wanna play episode 2 sooner than later XD
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: daventry on July 18, 2010, 01:15:25 AM
What Fierce Deity said, dont change because the Community Complains, Episode 1 is Perfect. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Kimmie on July 18, 2010, 03:30:05 AM
Every member of the forum has the right to express their own opinion!

Simply clicking your mouse to stop the narration is a fast and easy way to solve your problem.

Re-recording everything would add extra waiting time for the fans who would really just like to play the next few episodes, the team cannot please everyone and they do listen to comments and try to take them on board the best way they can.
 :)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: StormSpirit86 on July 18, 2010, 05:49:56 AM
Why all that negativity? It's just a game and we are all part of the same community...

I think Ep1 is good but far from perfect, and I also think that it might have been over-hyped, but there seems to be a lot of rage-charged comments towards this project, and most of those are coming from the adventure gaming community, which is a shame. There's a line between constructive criticism and simple and plain insults which some people don't seem to be able to recognize.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 18, 2010, 05:51:44 AM
There there is a difference between negativity and people attempting to give constructive criticism.

You can't please everyone, and people will have mixed opinions.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Cat1 on July 18, 2010, 04:31:17 PM
The problem with just clicking through the long narrations is that we are clicking on something to get info on it - we don't know whether we are going to get useful info or just an annoying monologue until we've already listened to it!  So just clicking through them isn't really an option either in my opinion.  I would definitely be willing to wait for you to get more subtle narrator lines recorded, but at the same time I can see that this would be really difficult to achieve, so guess I might just have to put up with the current ones.

That said, thanks so much for taking so much time to make this game - other than the narration and the fact that it kept crashing I really enjoyed it and will definitely be playing the others!!
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: B'rrr on July 18, 2010, 05:11:11 PM
I agree on that actually (even though I enjoy the 'long' narrations), the comment 'just click through it' is really not helpfull and kinda a way to say that you don't care about the issue people have with it. But Cat1, they said they might implement shorter narrations for those that like (as mentioned in the opening post of this thread) so you don't have to put up with the current ones  ;)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Fierce Deity on July 18, 2010, 05:18:08 PM
I just don't think the issue is that severe to rerecord and implement another "version" of the game. If you want to hear what the narrator has to say, I would imagine one could muster up the patience to hear it through to the end. If you aren't that interested, you can skip it. If you think you are missing something by skipping it, then you can listen to the full narration. I might be missing something from this, but it's not as complex as people are making it out to be.  :-\
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 18, 2010, 05:32:32 PM
I would actually be happier to have a non-snarky mode, that just turns of the more redicilous fourth wall breaking narrations.

I'm absolutey fine with the ones that are there to add to the story.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Goldenfoxx on July 18, 2010, 06:40:20 PM
Didn't the earlier voice-enabled KQ games have a Voice/Text button?  I seem to recall that they did (probably because sound cards weren't overly common at the time of KQ5 or 6 yet), but it seems to me that the option to turn on a text description of a clicked item could solve a lot of this debacle.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: The Hero on July 18, 2010, 08:20:39 PM
Didn't the earlier voice-enabled KQ games have a Voice/Text button?  I seem to recall that they did (probably because sound cards weren't overly common at the time of KQ5 or 6 yet), but it seems to me that the option to turn on a text description of a clicked item could solve a lot of this debacle.
I agree if you dont like em turn em off :)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: KatieHal on July 18, 2010, 08:54:26 PM
Goldenfoxx--that option does exist in the Audio Options menu already.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Cat1 on July 18, 2010, 10:24:06 PM
I agree on that actually (even though I enjoy the 'long' narrations), the comment 'just click through it' is really not helpfull and kinda a way to say that you don't care about the issue people have with it. But Cat1, they said they might implement shorter narrations for those that like (as mentioned in the opening post of this thread) so you don't have to put up with the current ones  ;)

Yeah, I can see that they are listening to the feedback and trying to achieve a solution, which is great!  However I'm not sure that just cutting out most of the narrative is going to fix it - as Flubly said on page 1 and KuroShiro on page 2 - that might just make them dry and detract from the character of the game. 

For instance, to take the vase narrative as an example, I quite like the back-story idea here, but I just feel like it doesn't say it succinctly - everything is spelled out too obviously.  Just off the top of my head, something like "these antique vases were a present from Cassima's Grandfather to her mother" when you look at it, and "careful Graham, remember that you're in someone else's castle" when you try to touch it, would have been economical but still interesting.  If it's shortened to "these vases are fine antiquities indeed", as suggested by Cez, it loses all the character.  I'd probably be more inclined to play with the long narration option rather than risk the game becoming boring and dry.

However it's not a huge issue for me - I love KQ enough to sit through hours of annoying narrative!  So if you don't choose to fix it I will still be downloading the next episode, and anticipating that playing it will be the highlight of my day!  And as I said, overall I love the game - the writing is really my only big issue.  I'm just giving this criticism because in my opinion it could really improve the game if you worked on this, and I think that after all the work you guys have put in it deserves to be the best it could be  :)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: daventry on July 19, 2010, 02:01:03 AM
I wonder if the Narration is the Only Big Issue in the Episodes, this means that the TSL Team are pushing the Next Episodes for a Longer Release to Shorten the Talkie and we will probably get Episode 2 by October and Episode 3 in January if this is All People Complain about.  :P

I just read in Another Thread that the Narrator is the New Cedric from KQ5, Seriously.  ??? ??? ???

I watched a Youtube Video of Cedric and then Listening to the Narrator again, that Bird Must Die.  :suffer:

I Love listening to the Narrator, the Only Weirdness that i have with her is that its a Girl's Voice when Most Games have Narrators of a Man.  ;D ;D

Are we gonna get a Patch to Shorten the Narrator for Episode 1 and Why exactly, if its to Resolve some Minor Issues and Bugs that is.  :-\ :-\
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: spinz on July 19, 2010, 02:37:44 AM
Yeah the cedric comparison is totally unfair. I played through kq5 with voices, and i regretted it everytime i heard cedric. Waaay not fair comparison.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: daventry on July 19, 2010, 03:49:41 AM
I wonder if the Narriator and this Person are the Same, they Almost sound the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JbdIDCjx3g
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: koko_99_2001 on July 19, 2010, 05:30:24 AM
I wonder if the Narriator and this Person are the Same, they Almost sound the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JbdIDCjx3g

No, they are not. If you look, the woman's name is Lauren...our narrator is Amy Kurylo. :)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: daventry on July 19, 2010, 05:38:39 AM
Does she read this Forum and is she a Member here, have she played All of the Episodes.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 19, 2010, 05:48:29 AM
I actually like Cedric. It is unfair to compare TSL's narrator to Cedric.

I find her nattering very annoying. If it was space quest I would be absolutely fine with her narration, but this is King's Quest, and many of her inane comments are juvenile... The fourth wall breaking doesn't fit King's Quest at all :p. (Space Quest, Yes)..

However, most of that may not necessarily be the fault of the narrator, but the dialogue she was given...
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: KatieHal on July 19, 2010, 06:06:15 AM
Does she read this Forum and is she a Member here, have she played All of the Episodes.

She is a member and she does come to the forums--she's posted to them before in fact. As for playing the episodes, I don't know.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: The Hero on July 19, 2010, 06:22:04 AM
I actually like Cedric. It is unfair to compare TSL's narrator to Cedric.

I find her nattering very annoying. If it was space quest I would be absolutely fine with her narration, but this is King's Quest, and many of her inane comments are juvenile... The fourth wall breaking doesn't fit King's Quest at all :p. (Space Quest, Yes)..

However, most of that may not necessarily be the fault of the narrator, but the dialogue she was given...
Alexander wo wait a minute
Alexander quit making me fall
fourth wall broken end of story
 
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 19, 2010, 06:51:18 AM
Yep, one of the very few "broken walls" in KQ6, and its very easy to miss it. Its one of the hidden easter eggs.

A rather easy broken fourth wall to find is in the one in Pawn Shoppe, where you can talk to the "stuffed bear", and it says that its upset for being kidnapped from a small town in "California". However, for being a nod to the real world, its also done in a deadpan serious, "in-universe" sorta of way. Thus there could really be a "California" in the world of Daventry, LOL (in the way he says it).

There might be a few if you attempt to giving characters items, that make no logical sense.

Again breaking the fourth walls does exist in KQ6 (even earlier KQ games), but its much less than in TSL, and in most cases they were easter eggs, that required you to do something that you wouldn't normally figure doing.

However, in this game, there is one in almost every screen, and she goes on and on about it nattering for three-five paragraphs of text.

The narrator in KQ6 never really nattered on and on about it when it 'broke the wall' in its very few instances. He didn't break down into long tirades about Asian pop culture, Japan, anime, manga, Ninjas, Samurai, etc, etc ad nauseum. He didn't go about insulting Alexander in nearly every screen (deaths screens excepted).

I'll admit I wasn't really a fan of the extremely few examples of broken walls in KQ6 either.

Now if this was Space Quest, I would expecting this to happen, and would appreciate it.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: B'rrr on July 19, 2010, 06:55:16 AM
The narrator in KQ5 never really nattered on and on about it when it 'broke the wall' in its very few instances.

The Narrator in KQ5 didn't nattered on and on about anything! there was more red cross in that game then narrating!  ;)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 19, 2010, 06:57:07 AM
It was a typo, it was meant to be KQ6, its been fixed. The narrator in KQ6, never really nattered, most of his things were to the point, just enough information to let you know what was going on, and usually in-universe.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: wilco64256 on July 19, 2010, 08:24:19 AM
Does she read this Forum and is she a Member here

I have seen her post here a few times, ironically she's still a Wizard's Slave.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: daventry on July 19, 2010, 08:35:44 AM
What is her Username and where is her Posts, must be sad to be a Member and then read around on how her Narrations and Voice Sucks. :(

So far since the Release of Episode 1, the Narrator is the Biggest Issue ???

How will People cope to the Daughter of Cedric in the rest of the Episodes, if they think she is that Bad  :'(
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: wilco64256 on July 19, 2010, 08:44:09 AM
I'd actually venture to guess that most of the unique complaints have been about the length of the episode rather than the narrator, the topics about the narrator have just lasted longer.  Either way it's really not too bad of a situation seeing as how the team has a solution for that.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: KatieHal on July 19, 2010, 08:45:38 AM
Well, they can be polite and respectful in their critiques--which everyone should do anyways, in general--as they never know who's reading.

For example I'd have to say the term 'Daughter of Cedric' is a little extreme.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 19, 2010, 08:56:19 AM
Seriously just saying, I think there are worse insults than "Daughter of Cedric"... That seems awefully tongue and cheek to me :p, more funny than insulting... Its not up there with "Son of a B...."
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: B'rrr on July 19, 2010, 09:05:54 AM
What is her Username and where is her Posts, must be sad to be a Member and then read around on how her Narrations and Voice Sucks. :(


There are also quite some that were positive about her voice and narrations, though as with everything, people that have a negative opinion about something are usually louder even though they are probably fewer  ;)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: daventry on July 19, 2010, 09:20:24 AM
Well i Respect her and se did an Awsome Job :D
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: wilco64256 on July 19, 2010, 09:28:53 AM
I'd take a wild shot in the dark and guess that the game had at least 25,000 downloads.  I'd also guess that I've seen about 20 or so users on these forums complaining about narration.  I'd call that a very vocal minority.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 19, 2010, 09:47:32 AM
Well, I think every review so far has criticized the narrator as well... But critics represent a vocal minority as well. LOL.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: kindofdoon on July 19, 2010, 11:11:36 PM
I'd take a wild shot in the dark and guess that the game had at least 25,000 downloads.  I'd also guess that I've seen about 20 or so users on these forums complaining about narration.  I'd call that a very vocal minority.

Did we ever find out how many downloads there were?
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: wilco64256 on July 19, 2010, 11:26:48 PM
A week ago we were at 13,000.  I have no idea how to see how many we're at now, I'll let Katie check on this one.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Cez on July 19, 2010, 11:36:38 PM
about 23000
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: wilco64256 on July 19, 2010, 11:39:32 PM
Wow I was pretty dang close!
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Fierce Deity on July 20, 2010, 12:01:47 AM
Well, they can be polite and respectful in their critiques--which everyone should do anyways, in general--as they never know who's reading.

For example I'd have to say the term 'Daughter of Cedric' is a little extreme.

I don't know what the fuss is about. I thought the narrator was fine. Although narration is kind of outdated in this generation of adventure games, I like that it is reminiscent to the King's Quest series. There was one annoying line that the narrator makes whenever the player clicks the 'touch' icon on a guard. She'll scream out "Guards! Guards!". I jumped out of my seat when it happened. Other than that line, I think she did a fine job actually narrating the story. I'll also have to applaud the writers, cause the level of detail in each description is spot on.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 20, 2010, 04:44:02 AM
I think it ranges from Space Questy snarky style narration to some that are closer in line with King's Quest's more serious style. She is all over the place with her style.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: B'rrr on July 20, 2010, 06:06:07 AM
so that would make it her own style!  ;)

And once more, not all KQ games had exactly the same style, there was some difference in them aswell, though perhaps not as big as in TSL.

I do think it is better to have your own style in the game because sometimes the closer you try to get to an origional (and that doesn't only count for narrating) the more irritating the differences are. at least that is my view when watching for example book -> movie conversions
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 20, 2010, 06:09:12 AM
Her style is to have  three different schizo styles from serious to completely annoying. But as I've said before this isn't all Amy's fault its the dialogue given to her. The schizo nature exists in the writing.

You can turn amy off and come across the schizophrenic diaologue in the writing itself.

Quote
And once more, not all KQ games had exactly the same style, there was some difference in them aswell, though perhaps not as big as in TSL.
Sure you only have two really to compare, KQ5 narrator (scratchy throat) and the most excellent KQ6 narrator (the best KQ narrator ever). You could count the narrators of KQ1-4, and KQ1SCI (not the fan remakes), but that's all about your own imagination (most were pretty basic descriptions). I've had fun imagining the voices of the narrators from KQ5 and KQ6 in those games just to see how it would feel (you gotta have a good imagination to do this however).

There was no narrator for KQ7 & 8.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: chucklas on July 20, 2010, 06:38:10 AM
I think the whole point is not necessarily how the narrator sounds, but more with the long tangents taken.  For example, look at the tree just south of the castle in Episode 1, then do the same in KQ6.  I find the message in KQ6 much better.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: kindofdoon on July 20, 2010, 10:05:15 AM
about 23000

Wow! That's really excellent! Congrats!
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Goldenfoxx on July 20, 2010, 10:33:31 PM
Goldenfoxx--that option does exist in the Audio Options menu already.

If it's there in TSL (I just didn't notice... probably because I had no desire to turn off the narrator at any point), I don't get what all the fuss about having to listen to it (other than the overall attitude of the comments) is all about, then...  You don't like it, turn it off. 
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Cat1 on July 21, 2010, 12:30:13 AM
Whoa - wait a minute people...!

I think that most of the people who have posted here aren't doing it to make a fuss or complain - I can't speak for everyone, but from what I've read I think that most of us who have posted genuinely want to give constructive feedback.  (I agree that maybe a few might have gone a bit overboard)...  I don't think we want to come off as discontented, and we're not demanding that the game be changed, but we feel that hopefully we are giving the POS team ideas of how they can improve this game or future games if they choose to.  I personally feel that the game is awesome, but could could benefit from some editing of the narration, but as I said in an earlier post, I can see that it would be really hard to get the narrator back to re-record different lines, so can understand if they don't feel that they want to/are able to at this stage.

After all they do have a "Fan Feedback" forum, so we assumed that's what they wanted - if they wanted fan adoration they would have called it the "Fan Adoration" forum?!

I think that to say we are discontented/complaining/making a fuss, is kind of getting the wrong idea - all we want to do is give critique that we hope will be helpful.  It's a shame that people who have a lot of experience and (in my opinion) good advice like the guys from IA have been discouraged from posting here.  I know that we all feel passionately about KQ, and might speak strongly about it sometimes, but, as trite as it sounds, can't we all be friends even if we don't agree? :)  After all, KQ is all about love really - don't you remember what Alexander told that gate in the Realm of the Dead   :D

Ok I'll stop now  ;)
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Flubly on July 21, 2010, 07:29:58 PM
Even if you had said that you were not going to change anything about the game, I would have still posted my opinion.  I'm a writer and I feel strongly about the form so I like to put out ideas to generate discourse.  I don't mean to offend or cause tension but I'm not a "to each his own" kind of guy.  I'm tolerant and open minded but that doesn't mean I'm not analytical.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: sahara on July 22, 2010, 05:52:43 AM
Even if you had said that you were not going to change anything about the game, I would have still posted my opinion.  I'm a writer and I feel strongly about the form so I like to put out ideas to generate discourse.  I don't mean to offend or cause tension but I'm not a "to each his own" kind of guy.  I'm tolerant and open minded but that doesn't mean I'm not analytical.

What do you think about the question of whether to even have a separate narrator?  Would you choose to make a game with one, or would you want the main character to comment on objects and scenes (from his/her perspective) when the player clicks on things?
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 22, 2010, 05:58:11 AM
I don't think the problem is with the narrator per se, but the problem with the text given to the narrator... You can turn off the narrator, but the text still exists...
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Flubly on July 24, 2010, 06:46:31 AM
What do you think about the question of whether to even have a separate narrator?  Would you choose to make a game with one, or would you want the main character to comment on objects and scenes (from his/her perspective) when the player clicks on things?

I would not create a game with a separate narrator unless it served the story (like switching POV in books).  If I did a King's Quest game I would write the narration in a minimalist storybook manner (maximum imagery in as few words as possible).  I would either do it from 3rd person, limited to Graham's POV or 2nd person limited to Graham's POV.  My problem with TSL's writing is that it assumes the existence of general "good writing", and really has no exploration of a style at all.  It merely combines lots of adjectives with a tell don't show method of storytelling.  Usually when I see writing like it, it's covered in red pen.  That's not intended to be an insult, that's my honest opinion from analyzing the structure of the narrations and comparing it against my experience in workshops.  Red pen, not from a single teacher but also from 30 other students with extremely differing tastes and styles but all with an academic focus in writing, analysis, and literary criticism.

Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: sahara on July 24, 2010, 08:15:07 AM
I would not create a game with a separate narrator unless it served the story (like switching POV in books).  If I did a King's Quest game I would write the narration in a minimalist storybook manner (maximum imagery in as few words as possible).  I would either do it from 3rd person, limited to Graham's POV or 2nd person limited to Graham's POV.  My problem with TSL's writing is that it assumes the existence of general "good writing", and really has no exploration of a style at all.  It merely combines lots of adjectives with a tell don't show method of storytelling.  Usually when I see writing like it, it's covered in red pen.  That's not intended to be an insult, that's my honest opinion from analyzing the structure of the narrations and comparing it against my experience in workshops.  Red pen, not from a single teacher but also from 30 other students with extremely differing tastes and styles but all with an academic focus in writing, analysis, and literary criticism.

You should apply to be a writer fo Phoenix Online or AGDI or a similar team if you have the time... you seem to know a lot about writing.  I am very impressed!  I felt like, besides its short length, the biggest problem with TSL was the writing.  All the other elements were in place... stunning visuals, cinematography, superb music, etc.  I don't know why adventure game development teams don't seem to make writing a priority.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Flubly on July 24, 2010, 10:05:24 AM

You should apply to be a writer fo Phoenix Online or AGDI or a similar team if you have the time... you seem to know a lot about writing.  I am very impressed!

I wouldn't be so quick to impressed!  Maybe my rhetorical skills are a testament to my writing but no one here has actually read anything by me.  For all you know I could write fiction like a textbook.  

I've always wanted to try my hand at being on a writing team for a game.  It's a lot more puzzle like and a whole different beast than other forms.  I do want to give Phoenix Online their due for the complicated nature of the writing.  It isn't easy work and it's something I've never done.

I don't really have the time to take on project responsibilities though.  Right now I'm adapting Philip K d***'s short story "Imposter" into a Binaural audio play for my English degree.  
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: DarkTerror on July 25, 2010, 08:19:55 PM
I didn't mind too much of the long narrations. As long as they were interesting, for example the statue of the dog that explains why the Guard Dogs came to be working for the Castle of the Crown. I forget, maybe it's written down somewhere and it's partly the "official" story. But little narrations like that fully explain little thing, I appreciate little details.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: kindofdoon on July 25, 2010, 10:34:02 PM
It seems to me that the rambly descriptions are only a result of excessive love on the part of PO. I felt like they wanted to give every object a nice story or poetic insight, even when one was not needed.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: Baggins on July 26, 2010, 02:39:47 AM
Quote
I didn't mind too much of the long narrations. As long as they were interesting, for example the statue of the dog that explains why the Guard Dogs came to be working for the Castle of the Crown. I forget, maybe it's written down somewhere and it's partly the "official" story. But little narrations like that fully explain little thing, I appreciate little details.

Most of its orignal. You ca look at that statue in KQ6, and there is only a very brief description of it being "made of marble" or some such.

There was a tiny bit in the Guidebook that came with KQ6;

Quote
The palace is made even more exotic by the race of guard dogs that serve and protect the palace. These wondrous creatures seem to combine the best qualities of canine and human. Speaking in gruff voices and armed with swords or pikes, the guard dogs are strong and intelligent, and have loyally served the crown through the centuries.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: RockNFknRoll on August 07, 2010, 07:48:37 PM
In all honesty, I don't think the choice is a necessary idea. I don't like the long descriptions, but mainly just because they are just poorly written imo and overly verbose and try-hard. It should just be a hard and fast rule of video game writing that descriptions and information should be as quick and relevant as possible. That doesn't mean there has to be a character maximum, it just means that words should be chosen very judiciously. You don't need a thousand adjectives if the artwork is good enough to fill your head with them anyway. If you go back to all the classic games like the old King's Quests and Monkey Islands, you see that the reading you have to do is always snappy and to the point. 90% of the atmosphere, humor and vibe you got was in your head, elaborated from just a nice concise line or two or text. When you just want to look at an object you don't want to have to click through multiple windows of complex, rambling story. It lags the game heavily and instantly creates boredom, which is a big no no. What's even worse is when you forget that you already clicked on that object and you then have to listen to the full story AGAIN. That's not to say that sometimes a bit of side info isn't nice from time to time, it should just be snappy.

Anyway, tl;dr forget multiple narrative options. I feel like that's just an excuse for weak writing in the first place, and it will no doubt bog down development time. Just compromise, make most descriptions short and bite-sized and some of them more elaborate if needed. And always from the same narrative style.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: wilco64256 on August 07, 2010, 08:03:46 PM
Your suggested compromise would actually take more development time and work than adding the option for shorter narrations.

And yes the older King's Quest games typically had short and to-the-point narrations, but plenty of other adventure games that also qualify as "classic" had longer and often goofy narrations.  The longer narrations would still retain that same type of quality, but shorter narrations would be much more brief and standard.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: RockNFknRoll on August 07, 2010, 08:16:01 PM
Your suggested compromise would actually take more development time and work than adding the option for shorter narrations.

And yes the older King's Quest games typically had short and to-the-point narrations, but plenty of other adventure games that also qualify as "classic" had longer and often goofy narrations.  The longer narrations would still retain that same type of quality, but shorter narrations would be much more brief and standard.
Can u point to a classic that you think these narrations compare to?

I would certainly agree that many adventure games have far too much blabbing and I can't think of a game where it was a good thing.

And I wasn't assuming that all narrations for future episodes were written out and recorded already. I meant my post as in going forward with the writing, not necessarily rewriting anything.


If there were two options, I would like to choose the short narrative option. but then I'd inevitably say to myself, "but geez I don't want to MISS anything." I'd be curious about what more there was to the game. I just don't think that's a very good solution. I'd prefer the game to just be the game. I think the option between lengthy writing and concise writing is kind of a false choice, if the real issue is good vs bad writing.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: wilco64256 on August 07, 2010, 08:41:28 PM
And I wasn't assuming that all narrations for future episodes were written out and recorded already. I meant my post as in going forward with the writing, not necessarily rewriting anything.

That's our main point - all of the lines have already been written and recorded, so there's not any new writing being done as we move forward.

I think the option between lengthy writing and concise writing is kind of a false choice, if the real issue is good vs bad writing.

See now you're talking about the difference between things that are factual - being able to switch between short and long versions of narrations - and something that's just an opinion - how good the writing is.  Plenty of people really like the writing and narration style of the game just fine.


Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: RockNFknRoll on August 07, 2010, 09:41:27 PM
And I wasn't assuming that all narrations for future episodes were written out and recorded already. I meant my post as in going forward with the writing, not necessarily rewriting anything.

That's our main point - all of the lines have already been written and recorded, so there's not any new writing being done as we move forward.

I think the option between lengthy writing and concise writing is kind of a false choice, if the real issue is good vs bad writing.

See now you're talking about the difference between things that are factual - being able to switch between short and long versions of narrations - and something that's just an opinion - how good the writing is.  Plenty of people really like the writing and narration style of the game just fine.



some people would like it no matter what. thus is the nature of fan forums. that doesn't really negate the principles of good writing. would you really disagree that efficiency of words and the pace of the gameplay aren't important?

shame about everything being written and recorded already. i guess then, finding a way to edit down what's already there is my preferred option. i still think my point stands. if there's a way to get essential and interesting information across quicker, that should just be the standard.

i haven't read through the thread, but here's an idea: if there's a choice between short and long descriptions, make it the player's choice at each click. i don't know how the button configuration would work, but you could do right click = short standard description and middle click = long description. or something like that.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: wilco64256 on August 07, 2010, 10:05:34 PM
Right-click changes icons so that wouldn't work.  I'd recommend reading through at least Cesar's posts in the thread, his more detailed description of what the short narrations would actually be like is actually quite excellent.  If you think the longer narrations are poorly written, then a short and basic narration style should take care of that.
Title: Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
Post by: KatieHal on August 08, 2010, 07:50:52 AM
Additionally, while we're adding the optional short narrations, we're not taking out anything that's crucial to know. If there's essential information, you're still going to get that.