I agree with the review. After all the years of super hyping this game, long before there was little more than screenshots--this game got more publicity probably than any fan game ever, and more publicity than any Sierra fan game ever--Long before a demo was even released. You hyped this game more than any fan groups which had actually given results.
And this game helped bring Activision (then Vivendi's) attention on the Sierra fan community to the point where it is dead now, because after POS hyper promoted this game as a quasi-real sequel to Sierra's games, they've decided that other fan groups (such as AGDI) cannot make any more Sierra related fan games. Once this game is out, the Sierra community is dead--and I believe it's largely because of the 'spit in Vivendi's face' publicity style this team did for this game.
And after all the years of waiting, and broken promises (Remember "Winter 2005"?), and massive hype you deliver pretty much an incredibly short, interactive movie (more a movie than Phantas was) that lasts under ten minutes of actual game playing if you just play-through the gamen without staring or looking at everything --After nearly a decade of waiting and hyping this game to every source possible like it was the Second Coming.
4 years ago you released a demo which is essentially the same as what you've just released, with only a few more cut-scenes added--No other puzzles or gameplay, the demo was essentially Chapter 1. From 2005-2010 (between the two shutdowns) you had five years to work on the game, and instead you obviously worked on 'Corridor 9' and started to trim more and more off of TSL--
I remember when you guys told us you had a "Big Announcement"--And you had everyone hyped up and excited for it, never once letting on what the announcement was, acting as if all was normal, or even better than normal--And it came that the announcement was essentially that unless you got money, all chapters except 1 & 2 were cancelled. You led people on believing for weeks that some huge, great announcement was coming, and than dropped the hammer on us all. You claimed you had made the decision to cut off 3-10 months before and in all that time acted as if all was well.
And finally...Frankly, I supported this game for years..But I don't like the direction it's taken. The tone is way too somber, the characters and atmosphere way too dark. Was King's Quest dark at times? Yes. But nothing like this. This isn't the pseudo-tension of KQ6--The game's tone, dialogue, and characterizations are all very angst ridden and melodramatic--Like a soap opera more than a simple fairy tale.
What you've done here, to make an analogy, is what the Nolan films did to the Batman franchise--Turned it into a gritty and twisted version of what it originally was. At least Nolan could argue that the Batman source material was dark and gritty--You guys can't.
You've turned a game series that was one of the most light hearted, cheesy and adorable series ever to grace a computer screen into a dark angst ridden game wherein everything is depressing, everything is melodramatic. I mean for example Graham wanting to rip the plants down because they remind him of his current situation--That sounds more the feelings of an overly emotional (emo) teenage girl than the Graham we saw in any other KQ game, or even in the King's Quest Companion.
You've essentially tried to make King's Quest meet a Final Fantasy game, even down to Alexander's appearence. From what we've seen from the different character stuff over the years, you've no sense of who these characters are. For example, Rosella selfish? Rosella who risked her life for her father and helped out restless spirits and enriched a poor Fisherman and his family for no other reason than to be kind and help? She's selfish?
I'll just conclude this by ending my review of the game with an utterly ironic quote made by a 'Kimmie' in the May 2005 Birthday Chat:
[16:08] <Kimmie> are u not all glad that the game will be out soon and not 2009
[16:08] <Kimmie> lol
Without going into a huge amount of detail I'll just disagree with pretty much everything you've said. Your opinion of this entire game is based on what probably amounts to less than a tenth of the whole product. I could pull just as much darkness and angst out of some part of any King's Quest game (Alexander knowing he's doomed to die in KQ3, Graham's family being stolen away in KQ5, Alexander's journey to the Land of the Dead in 6, etc.).
As far as hype is concerned, the vast majority of that came from fans watching the project rather than from the team themselves. And they're making a free game, if you're doing something for free then you need people to be interested. I'm not aware of any other fan project that was shut down by two different companies and still managed to survive.
Saying the fan-based community is now dead is just plain false. There are still other fan-based projects out there that could be continuing to grow but those groups have let their own projects die - they weren't stopped by C&D's.
I enjoyed episode one of this game, I too would have liked for it to be longer but am thrilled to see all the support for the team that's come about just because they finally have something out there - it's just the spark they needed to really get rolling on finishing off the other episodes. I'm really looking forward to the rest of the game and anything else Phoenix puts out afterwards.
May I also say, that it's been stated time and time again that episode 2 is much better. DMD, I would wait if I were you until episode 2 is out to see how that fares. I'm just a little disappointed that everyone jumps to conclusions on this first of five episodes. They see how short this one is and then automatically assume the worst. Maybe first impressions are wrong. Maybe the game actually IS good. I intend to stick around to find out. It saddens me a great deal to see how quickly people assume all is lost. They never once seem to think of a light at the end of the tunnel...
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
And this game helped bring Activision (then Vivendi's) attention on the Sierra fan community to the point where it is dead now, because after POS hyper promoted this game as a quasi-real sequel to Sierra's games, they've decided that other fan groups (such as AGDI) cannot make any more Sierra related fan games. Once this game is out, the Sierra community is dead--and I believe it's largely because of the 'spit in Vivendi's face' publicity style this team did for this game.
Really? I thought a King's Quest: Kingdom of Sorrow game was in the making?
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
And finally...Frankly, I supported this game for years..But I don't like the direction it's taken. The tone is way too somber, the characters and atmosphere way too dark. Was King's Quest dark at times? Yes. But nothing like this. This isn't the pseudo-tension of KQ6--The game's tone, dialogue, and characterizations are all very angst ridden and melodramatic--Like a soap opera more than a simple fairy tale.
What you've done here, to make an analogy, is what the Nolan films did to the Batman franchise--Turned it into a gritty and twisted version of what it originally was. At least Nolan could argue that the Batman source material was dark and gritty--You guys can't.
You've turned a game series that was one of the most light hearted, cheesy and adorable series ever to grace a computer screen into a dark angst ridden game wherein everything is depressing, everything is melodramatic. I mean for example Graham wanting to rip the plants down because they remind him of his current situation--That sounds more the feelings of an overly emotional (emo) teenage girl than the Graham we saw in any other KQ game, or even in the King's Quest Companion.
As for the dark tone, that has been the intention all along. Though, on a positive note for you, someone on the team did state that Episode 2 should be quite lighthearted.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
From what we've seen from the different character stuff over the years, you've no sense of who these characters are. For example, Rosella selfish? Rosella who risked her life for her father and helped out restless spirits and enriched a poor Fisherman and his family for no other reason than to be kind and help? She's selfish?
Well, she did only want to have fun and go on adventures rather than respect her parents wishes and settle down, but I suppose that is her choice to make. In any case, exploring things about Rosella that may not be so picture perfect (e.g., what makes her "selfish") might give her character more depth. No character is black or white.
And, if I recall, the "Selfish Princess about to Lose Everything" was stated on a wallpaper. Could anybody bring that up and see if it was a KQIX one or a TSL one?
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
And after all the years of waiting, and broken promises (Remember "Winter 2005"?)
...
[16:08] <Kimmie> are u not all glad that the game will be out soon and not 2009
[16:08] <Kimmie> lol
Okay, so this might actually be a good point. They were quite... optimistic about release dates. But, hey, it happens.
Quote from: I_am_so_nifty on July 17, 2010, 01:26:58 PM
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
And this game helped bring Activision (then Vivendi's) attention on the Sierra fan community to the point where it is dead now, because after POS hyper promoted this game as a quasi-real sequel to Sierra's games, they've decided that other fan groups (such as AGDI) cannot make any more Sierra related fan games. Once this game is out, the Sierra community is dead--and I believe it's largely because of the 'spit in Vivendi's face' publicity style this team did for this game.
Really? I thought a King's Quest: Kingdom of Sorrow game was in the making?
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
And finally...Frankly, I supported this game for years..But I don't like the direction it's taken. The tone is way too somber, the characters and atmosphere way too dark. Was King's Quest dark at times? Yes. But nothing like this. This isn't the pseudo-tension of KQ6--The game's tone, dialogue, and characterizations are all very angst ridden and melodramatic--Like a soap opera more than a simple fairy tale.
What you've done here, to make an analogy, is what the Nolan films did to the Batman franchise--Turned it into a gritty and twisted version of what it originally was. At least Nolan could argue that the Batman source material was dark and gritty--You guys can't.
You've turned a game series that was one of the most light hearted, cheesy and adorable series ever to grace a computer screen into a dark angst ridden game wherein everything is depressing, everything is melodramatic. I mean for example Graham wanting to rip the plants down because they remind him of his current situation--That sounds more the feelings of an overly emotional (emo) teenage girl than the Graham we saw in any other KQ game, or even in the King's Quest Companion.
As for the dark tone, that has been the intention all along. Though, on a positive note for you, someone on the team did state that Episode 2 should be quite lighthearted.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
From what we've seen from the different character stuff over the years, you've no sense of who these characters are. For example, Rosella selfish? Rosella who risked her life for her father and helped out restless spirits and enriched a poor Fisherman and his family for no other reason than to be kind and help? She's selfish?
Well, she did only want to have fun and go on adventures rather than respect her parents wishes and settle down, but I suppose that is her choice to make. In any case, exploring things about Rosella that may not be so picture perfect (e.g., what makes her "selfish") might give her character more depth. No character is black or white.
And, if I recall, the "Selfish Princess about to Lose Everything" was stated on a wallpaper. Could anybody bring that up and see if it was a KQIX one or a TSL one?
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
And after all the years of waiting, and broken promises (Remember "Winter 2005"?)
...
[16:08] <Kimmie> are u not all glad that the game will be out soon and not 2009
[16:08] <Kimmie> lol
Okay, so this might actually be a good point. They were quite... optimistic about release dates. But, hey, it happens.
It was a pre vivendi cease and desist wallpaper, if I recall. I am pretty sure it was back when it was known as KQIX. A lot has changed to the game since then. I just wish everyone would wait for episode 2 to see how that fairs. Everyone is just so quick to judge, and it really makes me sad.
Quote from: I_am_so_nifty on July 17, 2010, 01:26:58 PM
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
And this game helped bring Activision (then Vivendi's) attention on the Sierra fan community to the point where it is dead now, because after POS hyper promoted this game as a quasi-real sequel to Sierra's games, they've decided that other fan groups (such as AGDI) cannot make any more Sierra related fan games. Once this game is out, the Sierra community is dead--and I believe it's largely because of the 'spit in Vivendi's face' publicity style this team did for this game.
Really? I thought a King's Quest: Kingdom of Sorrow game was in the making?
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
And finally...Frankly, I supported this game for years..But I don't like the direction it's taken. The tone is way too somber, the characters and atmosphere way too dark. Was King's Quest dark at times? Yes. But nothing like this. This isn't the pseudo-tension of KQ6--The game's tone, dialogue, and characterizations are all very angst ridden and melodramatic--Like a soap opera more than a simple fairy tale.
What you've done here, to make an analogy, is what the Nolan films did to the Batman franchise--Turned it into a gritty and twisted version of what it originally was. At least Nolan could argue that the Batman source material was dark and gritty--You guys can't.
You've turned a game series that was one of the most light hearted, cheesy and adorable series ever to grace a computer screen into a dark angst ridden game wherein everything is depressing, everything is melodramatic. I mean for example Graham wanting to rip the plants down because they remind him of his current situation--That sounds more the feelings of an overly emotional (emo) teenage girl than the Graham we saw in any other KQ game, or even in the King's Quest Companion.
As for the dark tone, that has been the intention all along. Though, on a positive note for you, someone on the team did state that Episode 2 should be quite lighthearted.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
From what we've seen from the different character stuff over the years, you've no sense of who these characters are. For example, Rosella selfish? Rosella who risked her life for her father and helped out restless spirits and enriched a poor Fisherman and his family for no other reason than to be kind and help? She's selfish?
Well, she did only want to have fun and go on adventures rather than respect her parents wishes and settle down, but I suppose that is her choice to make. In any case, exploring things about Rosella that may not be so picture perfect (e.g., what makes her "selfish") might give her character more depth. No character is black or white.
And, if I recall, the "Selfish Princess about to Lose Everything" was stated on a wallpaper. Could anybody bring that up and see if it was a KQIX one or a TSL one?
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
And after all the years of waiting, and broken promises (Remember "Winter 2005"?)
...
[16:08] <Kimmie> are u not all glad that the game will be out soon and not 2009
[16:08] <Kimmie> lol
Okay, so this might actually be a good point. They were quite... optimistic about release dates. But, hey, it happens.
1) I don't believe IA has talked to Activision or brought them into it, regarding KoS, I could be wrong. Someone mentioned the possibility of a C&D and they in essence said they didn't even want to think about about that happening. Erpy (of ADGI) has said Activision has told them they are not to make any further Sierra inspird games--So why would Activision say anything different to any other fan group? The new policy as I heard it was that games that are currently in development would be ''grandfathered in''and allowed to finish but no new Sierra/KQ inspired games can be brought into development.
2) It may have been the intention to make the game darker--and yes, you're right, we were told it was to be made more ''mature''--But not that it would have so bleak or angsty a tone as it does. It's way too ''emo'' I gues would be the term. It doesn't play like a Fairy Tale but more like a Hot Topic version of King's Quest, if you get the analogy.
3) Wanting to have fun isn't the same thing as being an innately selfish person. Remember that in KQ7, in the past year or two Rosella had been nearly sacrificed to a dragon, had her father nearly die and endure all sorts of horrors to save his life, been kidnapped along with the rest of her family by an evil Wizard who intended to feed her and her family to a cat, and watched her brother sail off to find a princess and not return for months, with the family believing him to be dead. I can understand her wanting to have a little fun and not be pushed into marriage after that.
And as I said, from what we've seen of her character in KQ4 and KQ7, nothing reeks of selfishness--She didn't have to save Etheria in KQ7, but she did. I believe her character has enough depth. Remember, KQ was essentially supposed to be a mish-mash of fairy tales and myths creating something original and fairy tales aren't exactly known for their emotional or character depth. Why does every character have to have a ten page long back story or psychological profile?
What happened to just having fun? What happened to simplicity?
4) Being overly optimistic is one thing, and it's forgivable. We're all guilty of being overly optimistic about something about some point--It's understandable.
But purposely misleading fans on multiple occasions with regard to release dates and the content of ''big'' announcements, etc is another.
Nobody ever misled fans deliberately here. Take away both of the C&D's and this game would have been done quite a long time ago.
And what do you expect from a game that begins with both of Graham's children coming under the influence of a terrible curse? It wouldn't make sense for everyone to be lighthearted and joking around under circumstances like those. Give the second episode a shot and see if you still feel the same way.
Alright, this topic is getting derailed fast. This is meant as a discussion of the Kotaku review. If you wish to post your own thoughts on the game, please do so in the fan feedback forum. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and split the topic now.
EDIT: And it's been split. This thread can be used to continue this discussion.
It's nice to see all of the fans post a thread expressing how much they liked Episode 1, but although I played Episode 1 to its full extent, searched every nook and cranny and refused to leave a stone unturned, I'm saving my real response to the series for when Episode 2 comes out. I enjoyed Episode 1, but I'm looking at it for exactly what it is: an introduction for what's to come.
At least the short episode of the series is the first episode and not the last. Tales of Monkey Island was getting good til Episode 5. Then it crashed and burned in one fell swoop.
Quote from: wilco64256 on July 17, 2010, 01:47:07 PM
Nobody ever misled fans deliberately here. Take away both of the C&D's and this game would have been done quite a long time ago.
And what do you expect from a game that begins with both of Graham's children coming under the influence of a terrible curse? It wouldn't make sense for everyone to be lighthearted and joking around under circumstances like those. Give the second episode a shot and see if you still feel the same way.
''Winter 2005'', ''Big Announcement coming'', so maybe not ''misleading'', but not giving the ''whole truth''?
And there is no way to know that. The C&D in each case only lasted several months--If I recall correctly the first C&D was given in August or September 2005 and lifted on November 29th, 2005. From there forward, the team had 4 years (November 2005-February 2010) to do something, and the next year (I believe in March 2006) they released the demo which is only again but a few screens longer than what we finally got as "Episode I", and we've seen screenshots from parts of the game past Episode I before (for example, the screenshot of Graham with Beauty and Cocteau in his castle, or the video of Cocteau screaming by a fountain, that obviously comes from a later episode as does the shots of Graham bowing to Beauty)
All of these screenshots, which show presumably later parts of the game, were available as early as May 2005. The videos of Shadrack by the road of the Tower and Valanice being dragged up to it came out in late 2005-early 2006 as part of the "Making of" video and look the same in the "Making of" video which they sent Vivendi and gave us as they do now, five years later in the official trailer.
Well, we have no way of knowing exactly in what order the material was produced. The parts of the game that those particular screenshots showed could have been some of the earliest material completed.
A lot of time was presumably also spent with fixing errors and beta testing. The TSL team has said many times that this was all a learning process for them. Truthfully, I don't think any of us who didn't work on it have any idea how difficult it is to make a game--especially for no pay.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 01:42:11 PM
Erpy (of ADGI) has said Activision has told them they are not to make any further Sierra inspird games
Could you possibly link to me to his post about that? I think I missed it.
Quote from: I_am_so_nifty on July 17, 2010, 02:07:43 PM
Well, we have no way of knowing exactly in what order the material was produced. The parts of the game that those particular screenshots showed could have been some of the earliest material completed.
A lot of time was presumably also spent with fixing errors and beta testing. The TSL team has said many times that this was all a learning process for them. Truthfully, I don't think any of us who didn't work on it have any idea how difficult it is to make a game--especially for no pay.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 01:42:11 PM
Erpy (of ADGI) has said Activision has told them they are not to make any further Sierra inspird games
Could you possibly link to me to his post about that? I think I missed it.
http://www.bigbluecup.com/yabb/index.php?topic=41402.0
"It's both
(legal worries and lack of resources), actually.
Activision did say we could finish what we started, but couldn't start anything new. But even if we were allowed to start any new remakes, I don't think we would since we're no longer the college-students-with-too-much-free-time we were 10 years ago."
Bolded= Added by me for the context of his answer to the preceding statement. Emphasis added by me.
Just a couple of corrections to your post.
Actually, Activision's statement towards AGDI is not related to TSL in any way. They made that statement way back in 2008 and it's simply Activision's position, not inspired by any fangame related event. And as stated, AGDI wasn't gonna start any new remake projects anyway, that decision was made in 2005 already. Also, it wasn't TSL's premature promotional campaign back in 2005 that brought the project to Vivendi's presence...they already knew about the project. (they told us so back in 2004) The campaign with a "release date" being announced merely set them off.
So no, the decline of the Sierra fan-game community has nothing to do with TSL's promotion tactics. Nothing at all. The Sierra generation simply got older and had less time on its hands, people saw 90% of all fangames fail and die so eventually less new fangames were announced as idealism and optimism turned into realism or cynicism.
You can go on about how the 2005 campaign was premature (it was), but its effects weren't nearly as grand as you're making them out to be.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
Yes but Activision also told TSL to stop work at one point. Just because they said not to make any new ones doesn't mean it'll never happen no matter what, as evidenced by the survival of TSL itself. Erpy even makes it quite clear in the same part the you copied and pasted that they didn't plan to make any new games anyway. Absolutely nothing there to even remotely substantiate your claim that TSL has brought about the death of the Fan-based game community.
Speak of the devil, there's Erpy himself clarifying his own remarks.
Quote from: Fierce Deity on July 17, 2010, 01:52:49 PM
It's nice to see all of the fans post a thread expressing how much they liked Episode 1, but although I played Episode 1 to its full extent, searched every nook and cranny and refused to leave a stone unturned, I'm saving my real response to the series for when Episode 2 comes out. I enjoyed Episode 1, but I'm looking at it for exactly what it is: an introduction for what's to come.
At least the short episode of the series is the first episode and not the last. Tales of Monkey Island was getting good til Episode 5. Then it crashed and burned in one fell swoop.
I'm quoting this because I want you to read it. And I want you to understand it. Your passing judgement on the entire 5-episode set based on one episode because it's short and lacks gameplay. Your assuming the other 4 episodes are going to be exactly the same and let me tell you... they aren't.
Why don't you take a note out of the above quote and wait until Episode 2 before passing judgement on the entire 5-episode set. Episode 2 is really where the game takes off and if, after playing Episode 2, you feel the same way as you feel right now, then that's fine... as then you will know exactly how the remaining episodes will play. Episode 1 is nothing more than an introduction and isn't meant to be all-inclusive. It does exactly what it was intended to do, and that is to introduce you to the world and setup what is to come in the remaining episodes.
And yes... Episode 2 is much more lighthearted than Episode 1... there is a lot of whimsy and fun to be had in Episode 2 and it's not something that your going to complete in 10 minutes. Even in it's current form (which is 90% complete), it would still take you a good 2-3 hours to get through the episode. And that time estimate does not include any cutscenes I might add.
So reserve your judgements on the entire 5-episode set until you play Episode 2.
Quote from: Erpy on July 17, 2010, 03:13:03 PM
Just a couple of corrections to your post.
Actually, Activision's statement towards AGDI is not related to TSL in any way. They made that statement way back in 2008 and it's simply Activision's position, not inspired by any fangame related event. And as stated, AGDI wasn't gonna start any new remake projects anyway, that decision was made in 2005 already. Also, it wasn't TSL's premature promotional campaign back in 2005 that brought the project to Vivendi's presence...they already knew about the project. (they told us so back in 2004) The campaign with a "release date" being announced merely set them off.
So no, the decline of the Sierra fan-game community has nothing to do with TSL's promotion tactics. Nothing at all. The Sierra generation simply got older and had less time on its hands, people saw 90% of all fangames fail and die so eventually less new fangames were announced as idealism and optimism turned into realism or cynicism.
You can go on about how the 2005 campaign was premature (it was), but its effects weren't nearly as grand as you're making them out to be.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
Does the edict ''No new Sierra based games'' go just for you guys, or for any fan group?
Cause if it's for everyone, that is a really, really cruel move by Activision.
Quote from: oberonqa on July 17, 2010, 03:22:15 PM
Quote from: Fierce Deity on July 17, 2010, 01:52:49 PM
It's nice to see all of the fans post a thread expressing how much they liked Episode 1, but although I played Episode 1 to its full extent, searched every nook and cranny and refused to leave a stone unturned, I'm saving my real response to the series for when Episode 2 comes out. I enjoyed Episode 1, but I'm looking at it for exactly what it is: an introduction for what's to come.
At least the short episode of the series is the first episode and not the last. Tales of Monkey Island was getting good til Episode 5. Then it crashed and burned in one fell swoop.
I'm quoting this because I want you to read it. And I want you to understand it. Your passing judgement on the entire 5-episode set based on one episode because it's short and lacks gameplay. Your assuming the other 4 episodes are going to be exactly the same and let me tell you... they aren't.
Why don't you take a note out of the above quote and wait until Episode 2 before passing judgement on the entire 5-episode set. Episode 2 is really where the game takes off and if, after playing Episode 2, you feel the same way as you feel right now, then that's fine... as then you will know exactly how the remaining episodes will play. Episode 1 is nothing more than an introduction and isn't meant to be all-inclusive. It does exactly what it was intended to do, and that is to introduce you to the world and setup what is to come in the remaining episodes.
And yes... Episode 2 is much more lighthearted than Episode 1... there is a lot of whimsy and fun to be had in Episode 2 and it's not something that your going to complete in 10 minutes. Even in it's current form (which is 90% complete), it would still take you a good 2-3 hours to get through the episode. And that time estimate does not include any cutscenes I might add.
So reserve your judgements on the entire 5-episode set until you play Episode 2.
I've been trying to get that exact point across for some time now. Everyone is judging the whole (unreleased) game on the introductory episode. Why can't everyone wait until episode 2 to pass a full judgement? You have no idea how the rest of the episodes play out, and yet you judge them as if you did.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 03:26:08 PM
Quote from: Erpy on July 17, 2010, 03:13:03 PM
Just a couple of corrections to your post.
Actually, Activision's statement towards AGDI is not related to TSL in any way. They made that statement way back in 2008 and it's simply Activision's position, not inspired by any fangame related event. And as stated, AGDI wasn't gonna start any new remake projects anyway, that decision was made in 2005 already. Also, it wasn't TSL's premature promotional campaign back in 2005 that brought the project to Vivendi's presence...they already knew about the project. (they told us so back in 2004) The campaign with a "release date" being announced merely set them off.
So no, the decline of the Sierra fan-game community has nothing to do with TSL's promotion tactics. Nothing at all. The Sierra generation simply got older and had less time on its hands, people saw 90% of all fangames fail and die so eventually less new fangames were announced as idealism and optimism turned into realism or cynicism.
You can go on about how the 2005 campaign was premature (it was), but its effects weren't nearly as grand as you're making them out to be.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashum.jpg)
Does the edict ''No new Sierra based games'' go just for you guys, or for any fan group?
Cause if it's for everyone, that is a really, really cruel move by Activision.
That's something I don't know. I assume Cesar has the answer to that question. Maybe Oberonqa does too, idk. I haven't been informed on the details of the agreement myself unfortunately.
Activision owns the Sierra IP, so it would apply to any and all fan groups. And it's not cruel, they have both the right and the duty to protect what is theirs. If you bought an entire video game production company and with it came to the rights to a specific franchise it'd be terrible business to not stop all fan work based on that franchise while you determined what you wanted to do with it.
The deal with AGDI has nothing to do with any other fangame group. It's specific to AGDI. Just as the deal with POS is specific to them. There isn't one big grand fangame license agreement out there that everyone has to adhere to. If Activision ever came to IA and gave them a C&D they would. But as it is there is no agreement with Activision and IA so they are continuing to do what they do without garnering attention.
Quote from: oberonqa on July 17, 2010, 03:22:15 PM
And yes... Episode 2 is much more lighthearted than Episode 1... there is a lot of whimsy and fun to be had in Episode 2 and it's not something that your going to complete in 10 minutes. Even in it's current form (which is 90% complete), it would still take you a good 2-3 hours to get through the episode. And that time estimate does not include any cutscenes I might add.
This is totally unrelated, but that's exciting news.
Quote from: oberonqa on July 17, 2010, 03:22:15 PM
Quote from: Fierce Deity on July 17, 2010, 01:52:49 PM
It's nice to see all of the fans post a thread expressing how much they liked Episode 1, but although I played Episode 1 to its full extent, searched every nook and cranny and refused to leave a stone unturned, I'm saving my real response to the series for when Episode 2 comes out. I enjoyed Episode 1, but I'm looking at it for exactly what it is: an introduction for what's to come.
At least the short episode of the series is the first episode and not the last. Tales of Monkey Island was getting good til Episode 5. Then it crashed and burned in one fell swoop.
I'm quoting this because I want you to read it. And I want you to understand it. Your passing judgement on the entire 5-episode set based on one episode because it's short and lacks gameplay. Your assuming the other 4 episodes are going to be exactly the same and let me tell you... they aren't.
Why don't you take a note out of the above quote and wait until Episode 2 before passing judgement on the entire 5-episode set. Episode 2 is really where the game takes off and if, after playing Episode 2, you feel the same way as you feel right now, then that's fine... as then you will know exactly how the remaining episodes will play. Episode 1 is nothing more than an introduction and isn't meant to be all-inclusive. It does exactly what it was intended to do, and that is to introduce you to the world and setup what is to come in the remaining episodes.
And yes... Episode 2 is much more lighthearted than Episode 1... there is a lot of whimsy and fun to be had in Episode 2 and it's not something that your going to complete in 10 minutes. Even in it's current form (which is 90% complete), it would still take you a good 2-3 hours to get through the episode. And that time estimate does not include any cutscenes I might add.
So reserve your judgements on the entire 5-episode set until you play Episode 2.
That post might seem out of context because it was in reference to the prior thread about Kotaku's review, but because of its placement in DMD's rant, it got moved over to this thread. But regardless, I'm glad the post could illustrate the reality of the situation. Would a movie critic watch the opening credits of a movie then walk out of the theater talking about how short the movie was? He wouldn't be a very good critic if he did. So it would only be fair that if a gamer plays the first episode and begins to talk negatively about the entire game, that he should also admit that he is not a very good gamer.
Quote from: I_am_so_nifty on July 17, 2010, 03:43:27 PM
Quote from: oberonqa on July 17, 2010, 03:22:15 PM
And yes... Episode 2 is much more lighthearted than Episode 1... there is a lot of whimsy and fun to be had in Episode 2 and it's not something that your going to complete in 10 minutes. Even in it's current form (which is 90% complete), it would still take you a good 2-3 hours to get through the episode. And that time estimate does not include any cutscenes I might add.
This is totally unrelated, but that's exciting news.
You haven't been following the interviews my friend. Cesar himself has been saying that in interviews for the last couple of weeks. :)
All the interviews kind of blended into "Yay, it's out!" after a while.
Guess I should pay more attention.
Episode 2 sounds like it's going to be a blast. Even if it has more gameplay, I hope it doesn't hold back on the storyline though. The last cutscene of Episode 1 got me speculating on what's going to happen.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 01:54:04 PM
Quote from: wilco64256 on July 17, 2010, 01:47:07 PM
Nobody ever misled fans deliberately here. Take away both of the C&D's and this game would have been done quite a long time ago.
And what do you expect from a game that begins with both of Graham's children coming under the influence of a terrible curse? It wouldn't make sense for everyone to be lighthearted and joking around under circumstances like those. Give the second episode a shot and see if you still feel the same way.
''Winter 2005'', ''Big Announcement coming'', so maybe not ''misleading'', but not giving the ''whole truth''?
I recall Yonkey saying that "The journey begins this Winter" was meant to be the release of the demo, not the game. The demo then had to be sent to Vivendi, which took several months and tested, which took a few more, so we ultimately got it about six months later than intended. It doesn't explain anything else, but I felt that needed to be corrected.
We were definitely overly optimistic about how much we had left to do at the time. There's no denying that fact. However, we've made a lot of changes in the game since, even in the portion that comprised the demo/most of Chapter 1. We've added a lot of cameras to make things more cinematic, improved graphics, added/lengthened narrations based on fan feedback at the time (with varying degrees of success it would seem, heh), etc. If you look at old videos of the demo, you can see how much improved these areas have become since then.
DMD, I'm sorry you feel that way. I also hope you see the game through to Episode 2 at the least, because there is a lot more gameplay, things do get brighter (literally, the lighting is brighter!), and there's more gameplay going on. In Episode 1 we intentionally created a somber mood--Graham's children have been attacked, they're essentially comatose in the aftermath, there's a big rainstorm going on, it's a downer kind of day!
We did intentionally decide to mature the storyline, however. There's no denying that, either. We hope people will enjoy it, we did try to keep the essence of KQ, but we wanted to push the envelope and take it a step further. If that's not your cup of tea, there's not much I can say to change your mind, but again, I do hope you at least play Episode 2 as well and give more of the game a chance.
Quote from: KatieHal on July 17, 2010, 07:24:05 PM
We were definitely overly optimistic about how much we had left to do at the time. There's no denying that fact. However, we've made a lot of changes in the game since, even in the portion that comprised the demo/most of Chapter 1. We've added a lot of cameras to make things more cinematic, improved graphics, added/lengthened narrations based on fan feedback at the time (with varying degrees of success it would seem, heh), etc. If you look at old videos of the demo, you can see how much improved these areas have become since then.
DMD, I'm sorry you feel that way. I also hope you see the game through to Episode 2 at the least, because there is a lot more gameplay, things do get brighter (literally, the lighting is brighter!), and there's more gameplay going on. In Episode 1 we intentionally created a somber mood--Graham's children have been attacked, they're essentially comatose in the aftermath, there's a big rainstorm going on, it's a downer kind of day!
We did intentionally decide to mature the storyline, however. There's no denying that, either. We hope people will enjoy it, we did try to keep the essence of KQ, but we wanted to push the envelope and take it a step further. If that's not your cup of tea, there's not much I can say to change your mind, but again, I do hope you at least play Episode 2 as well and give more of the game a chance.
I will take yours and others suggestions and play through Episode 2; I was intending to anyway, however I did feel the need to voice long held in complaints and feelings. I do hope Episode 2 is as good as you and others are saying and will definitely play it.
I just want to make a quick note slightly in defense of DMD's (and others') point of view on the whole "short/interactive movie" complaint. Now, after having read through a LOT of the forum topics relating to Episode 1, I understand that it was meant to be an introduction. This is perfectly fine. It's a beautiful introduction and well done, whether or not you think the narrator rambles too much or the mood is too dark (though there are kind of a lot of grammatically awkward lines, but that's getting off-topic). So anyways, the fact that Episode 1 is more intro than actual game is fine and actually kind of a nice idea. However, this was not clear (at least to me) before I downloaded and played the game. Granted, I haven't been to these forums in years and I didn't read many interviews about the game prior to its release, but I've received the newsletter for years (via a different account - I had trouble with the password reminder tool so I just gave up and made a new one) and I played the demo and that sort of thing. So if the Episode-1-is-just-an-introduction concept was discussed somewhere, I clearly missed it, and I would bet that many other KQ fans who are not hanging on POS' every word probably did too. Therefore, I have to say that I'm not a huge fan of the whole defensive attitude some of these comments take regarding the completely legitimate disappointment many of us felt when the episode was over and we'd collected a grand total of 3 items and used 2 in a very straightforward way. Had players been prepared for this ahead of time and been clearly informed that it was just a short intro, you'd be having a lot less complaining going on. My personal feeling is that when something is billed as an "episode", it's a segment of the game that is likely to be self-contained, but certainly has actual gameplay and puzzle-solving and significant progression (think Half-Life 2: Episodes 1 and 2). As I read somewhere else, it's kind of more accurate to call this a "prologue". So please accept that it is perfectly reasonable for people to have had greater expectations and subsequently be disappointed. It's also kind of silly to say "How can people be complaining about how bad the game is when they've only played the first part?? Save your judgment until you've played more of the game!!" Quite frankly, that's what happens when you release games in episodes. It's like a TV show. Your pilot has to set up the show's plot and characters and everything, but it also has to stand on its own and be enjoyable for viewers, or the show won't get good ratings. People cannot count on the promise of future episodes when they are judging the quality of a TV series or a game, and while I understand that you want people to reserve judgment until they've played the whole thing...that just isn't how the world generally works. I mean, these forums have a feedback section for the game so far! People have to operate based on the evidence at hand, and if you want their feedback, you have to accept that and work within the constraints of releasing games in episodic form. There's a reason people talk about first impressions being crucial - it's because they are, and it's no less true for games.
So to sum up: People were not sufficiently made aware ahead of time that this was merely an intro rather than a really playable section of the game. This led to disappointment, which means these people got a poor first impression from the game, and so they are inclined to complain. This is completely reasonable. So please, go ahead and keep telling everyone to calm down, that it's just an intro and it'll get more exciting in the next episode - but also understand that this is a legitimate complaint and use it constructively when it comes time to publicize things in the future. It pretty much just comes down to some miscommunication.
Anyways, just so you know - I do like this intro so far. I was really disappointed at first when I played through, but I am very relieved to know that things will pick up in Episode 2. The game looks great, I am mostly very happy with the voice acting, I love the music....I just can't believe that this was done by fans for free in their spare time. Thank you so much to everyone for working so hard on this. I do apologize if this comment came across as a**hole-ish or lecturing or ungrateful anything like that - I just honestly want people to understand why this critique keeps popping up. (Also, very sincere apologies for the lengthiness of this comment!)
Peacockin, your argument is sound, but it isn't true for everybody. I for instance, am an exception to your rule. I was following The Silver Lining project for years. I played the demo, followed the newsletter, attended the chatroom, etc. I was a fan by a textbook definition. However, I fell out of the loop awhile back when the cease and desists flooded the media streams and I lost hope in this project succeeding. I didn't come back to this forum until the day of the episode's release. I downloaded the episode, installed it on my computer, and began to sit down for what the episode had to offer. Coming out of the first episode, while most people decided to rant and rave about how short the game was, I was simply blown away by the last cutscene. There's a prophecy, two factions (one being the Black Cloaks obviously, and another group that I'm assuming are Silver Cloaks), Alexander and Rosella are comatose, Shadrack has something up his sleeve cause he's an evil genius. Even though the episode is short, I got more out of that episode than I was expecting. I love the story. Gameplay is important, but if it doesn't have a story, then it's not King's Quest.
But like I said, I'm an exception to the rule. I can understand why people were upset, but if I was able to appreciate what the episode had to offer and I followed the same conditions as all of those who are bitter, then I seriously can't see why those who are bitter can't just let go of their disappointment.
I also wouldn't compare an episode from TSL to Half-Life 2: Episode 1. Half-Life 2: Episode 1 was a full blown game, Episode 1 for TSL is 1/5 of a game. I would compare it to Tales of Monkey Island if anything. And Tales of Monkey Island had some short episodes that lacked gameplay. Episode 5 was probably the worst because it was anti-climactic. I also wouldn't compare it to an episode from a TV show, cause each episode on a TV show can be a standalone experience, while once again, this episode is 1/5 of a game. I made an analogy up top about a movie critic watching 1/5 of a movie and then critiquing it. This is an analogy that I'm going to stand by, because I find it to be as accurate as it gets.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and saying that Episode 1 is short is an understandable statement. I'm not defending Episode 1 from those statements. I'm defending the entire game from the people that are saying, "I waited 10 years for this piece of crap?" or "TSL was over hyped". Understanding what Episode 1 was (an introduction) would have prepared the fans for what they were getting into, but they are now lashing out at the entire project. Which is why I am now trying to educate those who are misinformed. As long as you are willing to give Episode 2 a chance (thus having played 2/5 of the game), then I at least feel like the project is being given its fair due.
I have to agree word-for-word with what Peacockin said.
I had previously made a couple of comments about episode 1, but I couldn't quite put into the right words or state so eloquently about just why I felt the way I did. And it was also hard to explain why those feelings were indeed legitimate. Peacockin explained why those feelings were legitimate. It really came down to a lack of communication. Things were not communicated to the TSL community and semi-casual followers about just what episode one was.
Not only was this lack of communication an error, but it was a pretty bad error to release this episode as it was. The first episode was supposed to make a good first impression and also serve as a template for what downloaders can expect from a Phoenix Online Studios offering and more specifically a Silver Lining episode. It didn't have to be a cookie-cutter template for each episode, but as a first impression, episode one should have given the player an idea of what to expect from TSL. Like Peacockin said, gameplay, puzzle-solving, and significant progression should have occurred in this first episode. It did not occur.
Now, it is not the end of the world that this happened. We are all aware that the later episodes will be longer and will have some more gameplay, and I look forward to downloading them. But a couple things kinda tamp down the potential future excitement of the later episodes. One is that Episode 1 is the baseline, so it's really gotta jump up hard and fast. I'm hoping that can be accomplished, but I'm not so sure it can. The game is 90% complete and pretty much locked in, I'd say, as far as game-playing elements are concerned. While we have been told that the later episodes have more of these elements, given past history of communication, I begin to wonder a little bit.... There was just something about playing episode 1 that gave me kind of a weird feeling that tells me I won't enjoy this as much as I'd hoped when I started following The Silver Lining way back in 2002. I was picturing KQ6 at it's height and oodles of puzzles, and I don't think that's what we're gonna be getting. And like I said, I realize that the later episodes will have more gameplay/puzzle elements, but the feel of episode 1 tells me that this is gonna be more story-driven and aimed at people who are really concerned about the intricacies of all these character relationships....... which is perfectly OK! Some people love that. It's just not my cup of tea when playing adventure games.
I agree that what I'm saying isn't true for everyone, and I'm glad you liked the game. Upon reflection, I did too. I'm just saying that it's understandable why some people were upset and maybe felt misled a bit as to what they should expect, and I just kind of wish these people would have their perspectives heard fairly. But you raise an excellent point - this understanding goes both ways, and those who are upset do need to let it go if they're being rude and bitter and giving up on the game entirely. That said, there is no do-over on a fan's first experience with a game, so even after learning that it's merely an intro to bigger and better things, it can still be hard to let go of your disappointment entirely. But on the whole, I think you're right and people do need to just chill until Episode 2. :)
Having played the game now, I also agree with your analogy of a movie. That is more accurate as far as this game goes. I just meant that when you talk about releasing a game in "episodes", that conjures up certain expectations in people's minds (and so I myself think of the Half Life 2 episodes), and obviously TSL is not like that. So I think maybe some people were confused purely by the wording that the game would be released as 5 "episodes". People like me expected some action to tide us over until the next section. In that respect, I do stand by the TV show analogy, but I guess more as something that I think ought to be the ideal when you release games bit by bit. Like a serial drama or something...the story doesn't have to be tied up at the end of each episode, but you get a full meal's worth of entertainment (in the case of a game, this means "gameplay" to me, though the cutscenes were lovely and it looks like the story will be nice and rich) out of each episode. :) So that's where my personal idea of what an "episode" means conflicts with what the first episode of this game actually is, and I think maybe that's what happened with a lot of the people who haven't been so enthusiastic about the game thus far. So I think it's okay that people felt disappointed and are expressing this, but you're absolutely right - lashing out and ranting and raving is inappropriate. Hopefully these people will come back for Episode 2!
Probably more accurate to compare to the 5-episode Sam and Max or the 5 episode Tales of Monkey Island. In which case, something approaching one quarter or perhaps even one third of just one of the episodes would have been all that was expected in terms of gameplay from a free fan-made episode. But when even that wasn't reached, it led to wondering...
Labelling it a prologue or communicating that beforehand to all the various gaming sites would have made all the difference.
Let's play devils advocate for a moment, shall we?
Go check out this thread (which consists of 49 pages worth of posts):
http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8394.0
Do you notice some common themes here? There's a lot of posts from people saying POS should have just leaked the game and gotten the door open so it could never be closed. Now isn't it possible, just possible, that Episode 1 was released as an introduction to serve this purpose? Sure the team could have combined Episode 1 and 2 into one Episode... but that would have delayed the release even further... possibly pushing it into late 2010 or early 2011 as the two episodes would have required a great deal of work to combine into one episode.
One of the greatest critiques about TSL's delayed releases in hindsight has been the team took too long to get something released. And yet, now that we have released something, there's a group of people that just aren't happy. They were expecting a feast and instead they got a cheeseburger. Now I can't say as I blame that group of people for being unhappy.... but I think most of these people are just ignorant to the fact that they got what they wanted. The door has been opened. The remaining episodes will be released and that is because the door has been opened. The window of opportunity has been opened and there's nothing that can be done to stop it. As one poster in the C&D thread put it, once TSL is leaked into the wild, it cannot be unleaked.
Ok so we didn't leak the game. We released the first of five episodes, but the end result is still the same. And yes Episode 1 is indeed the shortest of the five episodes. But isn't it better to have a short episode out now rather than waiting more time and inviting further troubles that could potentially keep TSL from ever being released just so a group of people could have a longer gaming session?
If you want a longer gaming session... wait until all 5 episodes are released, download them all at once, and then goto town. But just remember that no one knows what the future might have had in store for TSL if the game had been delayed even further once the fan license had been secured from Activision. The team was burned once due to thinking a fan license was a permanent affair.
Take yourself out of the boxed in world that is your perception of things and consider the larger ramifications of the situation. Consider the angles and possibilities. Weigh the pro's and con's. Then come back and tell me if the team made a mistake in releasing Episode 1 as it is and whether or not they should have taken their chances and combined Episode 1 and 2 into one Episode, hoping they could get it released before Activision changed it's mind and revoked the fan license.
Alright, I see what you mean about the episodes, Peacockin.
It's just Telltale games (Sam and Max, Monkey Island, etc.) have been making 3D point-and-click adventure games for awhile, and they've recently been splitting every one of their games into 5 episodes. So when I found out about Phoenix Online's decision to split up TSL into 5 episodes, I instantly acknowledged their intentions. But I can agree that the lack of communication can harm the team's ideals. Hopefully, people will stick around for one more episode. One thing I'm hoping for personally is playing as some of the other characters. Graham is cool and all, but I want to play as Alexander, or even Edgar.
I think it would have been worth the gamble that Activision would not change its mind and revoke the fan license. What was communicated to us a few weeks ago regarding the agreement seemed pretty solid, and I just don't think that they (as evil as they can be) would revoke it by year's end. It just seemed like too short of a time between announcement of an agreement with Activision and then the release. After 8 years of waiting and reading about TSL, I think most, including me, were perfectly willing to wait a few more months (even year's end) to play TSL, secure in the knowledge that a somewhat/kinda/sorta solid agreement had been reached with Activision. This time, we were aware that all aspects of the game were nearing 90%, so another half-year to a year would have been just fine.
But I do agree that there were pluses and minuses to both sides, and a decision was made. I look forward to downloading episode 2 and the remaining eps. Cheers.
Quote from: Centaur444 on July 18, 2010, 12:15:29 AM
I think it would have been worth the gamble that Activision would not change its mind and revoke the fan license. What was communicated to us a few weeks ago regarding the agreement seemed pretty solid, and I just don't think that they (as evil as they can be) would revoke it by year's end. It just seemed like too short of a time between announcement of an agreement with Activision and then the release. After 8 years of waiting and reading about TSL, I think most, including me, were perfectly willing to wait a few more months (even year's end) to play TSL, secure in the knowledge that a somewhat/kinda/sorta solid agreement had been reached with Activision. After all, this time we were aware that all aspects of the game were nearing 90%, so another half-year to a year would have been just fine.
But I do agree that there were pluses and minuses to both sides, and a decision was made. I look forward to downloading episode 2 and the remaining eps. Cheers.
The big thing about the fan license is it can be revoked at any time by either party for any reason. And I think we can all agree that where Activision is concerned, it's best not to assume things. What if Activision had ended up selling the Sierra brand and all of the Sierra IP's to another holder while the team was reworking Episode 1 and 2 into one episode? Without anything released, it would be exceedingly easy for the new license holder to issue their own C&D and there you go... right back to square one.
That technically can still happen.... but I am sure Erpy would be the first to say (in fact I know he said this somewhere in the C&D thread I linked) that the reason why AGDI was allowed to continue distribution of KQ1VGA, KQ2VGA, and QFG2VGA is because they were already released. Not much point in issuing a C&D on something that has already been downloaded so much and made it's way onto so many mirrors. The door had been opened and could not be closed.
That's kinda where we are at, at least in my opinion. Yes the fan license can be revoked at any time... but with the first episode out and making the rounds.... the door has been opened. TSL isn't just going to disappear now.
I'm pretty sure the fact that Episode 1 is out wouldn't mean anything at all to Activision if they decided to revoke the license. They would just revoke it and prevent the other episodes from being released. And then, once that was done, if the remaining episodes "found their way" onto the internet, POS would have a lawsuit slapped on them so fast their heads would spin. What you describe would have absolutely no bearing on that. We'd just have the intro episode, and no resolution, and there wouldn't be anything anyone could do about it.
Honestly, I'd be more worried about Activision seeing all the negative reviews of Episode 1 on various gaming sites and then deciding their IP wasn't being handled correctly and pulling the plug.
*Not that I want that to happen--don't get me wrong, I absolutely don't. I want to play the rest of the game as much as the next guy! :) I'm just pointing out the fact that Activision can still do whatever it wants, being the corporate giant and all, and POS being the little guys.
Quote from: oberonqa on July 18, 2010, 12:22:25 AM
The big thing about the fan license is it can be revoked at any time by either party for any reason. And I think we can all agree that where Activision is concerned, it's best not to assume things. What if Activision had ended up selling the Sierra brand and all of the Sierra IP's to another holder while the team was reworking Episode 1 and 2 into one episode? Without anything released, it would be exceedingly easy for the new license holder to issue their own C&D and there you go... right back to square one.
That technically can still happen.... but I am sure Erpy would be the first to say (in fact I know he said this somewhere in the C&D thread I linked) that the reason why AGDI was allowed to continue distribution of KQ1VGA, KQ2VGA, and QFG2VGA is because they were already released. Not much point in issuing a C&D on something that has already been downloaded so much and made it's way onto so many mirrors. The door had been opened and could not be closed.
That's kinda where we are at, at least in my opinion. Yes the fan license can be revoked at any time... but with the first episode out and making the rounds.... the door has been opened. TSL isn't just going to disappear now.
Yah, it was a tough call, oberonqa. I do see what you are saying. Were the shoes reversed, I probably would have leaned toward the same decision.
But again, it really is hard to explain the lack of communication to both the TSL community and the multitude of gaming websites about the nature of episode one. It would have
greatly helped tamp down expectations. Especially since it is a first offering from a new gaming company. I just don't understand how a group of people collectively don't realize that it probably isn't the greatest idea that after 8 years... let's ummm
not adequately prepare people for episode one. Not only should we not adequately prepare them, let's start a two-week countdown with all the ritual fanfare that came with it. I didn't mean for those last remarks to come off as bitter. It is just in retrospect, what happened was really bizarre.
Quote from: Lambonius on July 18, 2010, 12:28:42 AM
I'm pretty sure the fact that Episode 1 is out wouldn't mean anything at all to Activision if they decided to revoke the license. They would just revoke it and prevent the other episodes from being released. And then, once that was done, if the remaining episodes "found their way" onto the internet, POS would have a lawsuit slapped on them so fast their heads would spin. What you describe would have absolutely no bearing on that. We'd just have the intro episode, and no resolution, and there wouldn't be anything anyone could do about it.
Honestly, I'd be more worried about Activision seeing all the negative reviews of Episode 1 on various gaming sites and then deciding their IP wasn't being handled correctly and pulling the plug.
*Not that I want that to happen--don't get me wrong, I absolutely don't. I want to play the rest of the game as much as the next guy! :) I'm just pointing out the fact that Activision can still do whatever it wants, being the corporate giant and all, and POS being the little guys.
And I found those quotes from Erpy over in the C&D thread. Despite the fact that him and I argued like cats and dogs a lot in that thread, there's no denying he knows his stuff and is a great source of knowledge (yes Erpy, I'm giving you a compliment!)
http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8394.msg277748#msg277748
QuoteKQ1VGA was a completely different matter. The TSL-team was contacted BEFORE they got around to releasing their game. AGDI wasn't contacted until AFTER both KQ1VGA and KQ2+ were already out. (AGDI kept such a low profile with KQ1VGA that most fans didn't even know about it, I'm not certain if they even had a board a few weeks before the game came out)
There's a large difference between releasing a game based on someone's IP WITHOUT their permission and releasing it AGAINST their permission. The first one might or might not get you into trouble, the second is almost guaranteed to get ugly.
http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8394.msg277787#msg277787
QuoteThe contract AGDI has was finalized back when Vivendi was still running things. But it remains valid until termination by one of the parties involved, even if the IP changes owners like it did with Activision. This is generally how things go with contracts...certainly you don't think that when merging with a multinational like VU Games, all legal agreements which they ever went into (thousands upon thousands with such a large company) are automatically voided and have to be manually renewed? If so, nobody would ever merge or buy companies. It'd be too much work.
http://www.postudios.com/blog/forum/index.php?topic=8394.msg274534#msg274534
QuoteWhen IP changes ownership, all contracts and licenses involving the IP are automatically transferred to the new owner. If the old IP holder was actually funding the production of a project, the new IP holder can cancel it though. (and I believe Activision pulled that trick in the past) If you acquired a commercial license by purchasing it with funds from an outside source however, the license can't be revoked just like that.
And now moving on...
Quote from: Centaur444 on July 18, 2010, 12:41:46 AM
Yah, it was a tough call, oberonqa. I do see what you are saying. Were the shoes reversed, I probably would have leaned toward the same decision.
But again, it really is hard to explain the lack of communication to both the TSL community and the multitude of gaming websites about the nature of episode one. It would have greatly helped tamp down expectations. Especially since it is a first offering from a new gaming company. I just don't understand how a group of people collectively don't realize that it probably isn't the greatest idea that after 8 years... let's ummm not adequately prepare people for episode one. Not only should we not adequately prepare them, let's start a two-week countdown with all the ritual fanfare that came with it. I didn't mean for those last remarks to come off as bitter. It is just in retrospect, what happened was really bizarre.
I will admit there were mistakes made during the release of Episode 1.... more along the lines of choosing the lesser of two evils. But such is the nature of things. Given what the team was faced with, I think they made the best decision they could have made given the situation. But that doesn't change the fact that mistakes were made. Not earth-shattering and game-breaking mistakes... but like you said, communication could have been a little better.
But playing devils advocate again.... what if the team had made it clear it was an introduction and was therefore a short episode? Wouldn't that have also ended up dissuading people from downloading the episode and experiencing the game for themselves? Would that have also sent out a very clear, albeit unspoken message that the team wasn't confident in what they had created and therefore had to resort to apologizing for it's length right from day 1?
Just some food for thought...
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 17, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
I
I'll just conclude this by ending my review of the game with an utterly ironic quote made by a 'Kimmie' in the May 2005 Birthday Chat:
[16:08] <Kimmie> are u not all glad that the game will be out soon and not 2009
[16:08] <Kimmie> lol
Oh great, now my quote has been used against me, from this day forth no words shall come out of my mouth...ooops see this is when the past come back to bite you in the bum..and hang on "a" kimmie, that makes me sound like a creature!
Saying that TSL is dark and depressing, well you can say the same for MoE. Ok if you are one of those who feel MoE wasn't a true KQ then thats you opinion, but I don't! I enjoyed MoE and I know from playing epidose one that I'm going to enjoy the rest of the series.
Episode one has plenty of humour in it, and although the opinion that the narrators comments may be too long in some parts I found it to be witty and light hearted (yes the narrator can be mean but if you are a sesitive little flower then don't play the game, or skip the narration)
Yes epidose one hasnt changed much from the demo as regards to puzzles, but the big announcement was that TSL was back in action and that the future promises release of the other episodes and I'm glad that I joined in the hype, the countdown and all that jazz. The foum is back aive again, a community has come together and healthy discussion and lots of opinions will be floating around!
Think back a few years to a piece of work that you did, if you had several years to work on it surely from todays point in time you would do things differently, tweak things! I'm sure thats the case for TSL...they want it to be good for the fans because they are fans themselves. So ok we have to wait, it's not their fault matters were taken out of their hands! I'm just glad it's all back and running again!
Wait until episode two comes out (and this time I'm not going to predict when that will be ;)) see where the story takes you, and what the puzzles are like!
Quote from: Centaur444 on July 18, 2010, 12:41:46 AM
Yah, it was a tough call, oberonqa. I do see what you are saying. Were the shoes reversed, I probably would have leaned toward the same decision.
But again, it really is hard to explain the lack of communication to both the TSL community and the multitude of gaming websites about the nature of episode one. It would have greatly helped tamp down expectations. Especially since it is a first offering from a new gaming company. I just don't understand how a group of people collectively don't realize that it probably isn't the greatest idea that after 8 years... let's ummm not adequately prepare people for episode one. Not only should we not adequately prepare them, let's start a two-week countdown with all the ritual fanfare that came with it. I didn't mean for those last remarks to come off as bitter. It is just in retrospect, what happened was really bizarre.
I don't think Phoenix telling all of the gaming websites that Episode 1 is just an introduction to the series is the kind of publicity that Activision would expect from a company that just survived their C&D. I think that's why the explanation for Episode 1 is present on the message boards, but not in the interviews and IGN articles. Phoenix is going to deliver a great experience. I know this because their reason for starting this project was due to them being fans of King's Quest. If they were fans of the series, they wouldn't strive for mediocrity. That's why I'm waiting for Episode 2.
I would have to agree that no one should pass judgement on this game until they have played all 5 episodes. Not even just the first 2, ALL of them. Just think for a second about movies you see in which you have no idea what is going on and then everything comes together beautifully at the end. In fact, even judging a game after playing it for just the first time can be harsh. You'd be surprised.... play the entire game again and you might find that you enjoy it. Maybe you missed something that you didn't find before. Maybe you misunderstood the message that the story was trying to convey. IMO, giving the game the guillotine at this point is premature and not logical.
Expectations are funny things because everybody will have a different one! How you imagined KQ to be or how you wanted the story to unfold will be different for everyone.
I agree with liggy, play them all and see how you feel. Everyone is entitled to an opinion good or bad because thats what makes us human after all! We aren't all confoming sheep but it'd be nice to see what pans out, after all the team have worked so hard and ask for so little in return :)
It's true that by the time Activision acquired VU Games, KQ1VGA, KQ2VGA and QFG2VGA were already out and that djinni couldn't be put back into the bottle again, but they could have prevented us from tying up loose ends and stuff (like KQ2VGA's updated new version which was still in production back then) which they didn't. They said they weren't really excited about our license, but wanted to honor it for the time being. I guess they felt revoking our license just like that was a bit asshattish. With TSL there was no finalized license yet, so they felt less of a threshold for pulling the plug.
If it's implied here that Episode 1 was released as quickly as possible out of fear that Activision would reconsider and revoke the license within a few months...I'm not certain if I agree with that reasoning. First of all, it's true that fan licenses can be pulled, but unless you're suspect of violating the contract, this kind of thing isn't done on a moment's notice. Due to stuff like monthly/annual web hosting fees and loose ends, it's customary that if the license is revoked without provocation on the team's account, they're being informed about a month before it goes into effect. (obviously, if there's a contract violation, the license is usually immediately pulled) If they told you they'd be revoking the license within 30 days, you still could have released everything you had. Second of all, it wouldn't make sense for Activision to put time and manhours (lawyers' manhours are expensive) into setting up a license and then revoking it a month later. I don't think they'd go through the trouble if they were still waffling on the decision to allow the game to be released. So I think the odds of Activision revoking your license in the short term are (unless this was specifically said) very low.
I feel what peacock said is true. People downloaded episode 1 expecting to have a game to play until episode 2 came out. That's the ideal schedule when working with episodic releases...release an episode, give people time to experience it and then release the next one before their attention span falters. And yes, people will judge the big picture with what they're given, that's the way things work. They consider episode 1 a pilot...something that makes or breaks their interest in the project as a whole and something that they expect to accurately reflect what the game will be about. I don't think it was made clear when announcing the first episode or upon downloading the game that it was just a short introduction , so naturally people feel let down.
Nobody's suggesting merging episode 1 and 2 into one whole, that'd be a waste of time and effort indeed. What would be more realistic was announcing the revokal of the C&D and the imminent release of the first part of the game and then either:
- Release episode 1 and 2 at the same time as separate downloads so people can immediately move on to the good stuff as part of their all-important first impression.
or
- Release episode 1 as "episode 0" or "prologue" (implying immediately it's shorter and an introduction) and release episode 2 a week later.
Both options involve pushing the first episode's release date back, but I don't think that would have been a problem for people and I don't think Activision's sword of Damocles would have descended during that time (unless there's stuff I'm unaware of), so in my opinion either option above would have been the lesser of the two evils, rather than the way things were done now. It's fairly easy to predict that most people go in expecting to have the first 20% of the game to play around with until the release of the second episode. Of course, I'm pretty certain the team's well aware of this by now.
Unless of course Activision stated they were 100% sure the KQ IP would change hands between May and the end of the summer.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashnorm.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on July 18, 2010, 03:42:12 AM
If it's implied here that Episode 1 was released as quickly as possible out of fear that Activision would reconsider and revoke the license within a few months...I'm not certain if I agree with that reasoning.
Was this really the case? I was under the impression that episode 1 was already ready and was already send to activision before (or about the same time) as the C&D came. could be wrong though.
I can fully understand that people have other expectations of episode 1, that it would be longer and more puzzles (common critic) I was a bit disappointed it was over so soon aswell (and it was all new to me since I did not play the demo), but you can hold on to your disappointment and rant about it/express it to as many people as possible, or you can just put it aside and view episode 1 as a really nice teaser episode that can get you excited for what to come.
I think it is a pretty good decision of the team to bring episode 1 out already, the development has been quite some years and it would be a great motivation for both the team and the fans to have something concrete, a milestone. True, a heads up could have been given that it was more of an introduction and not many puzzles in it so people might not be disappointed when they are done so fast, but I rather see it in the form it is now then for example a bit more puzzles but lacking in other ways(worse graphics/music/etc/etc).
Episode 1 was pretty much ready to go when we got the C&D, yes. We released it now because, well, it was ready and we wanted to finally release the first piece of the game. :) We've done so, we've learned quite a bit from that already...and we're moving forward. Can't correct mistakes that may have already been made, after all, you can only try and course-correct in the future.
I don't think the Episode 1 release should have been postponed for the sake of releasing it closer to Episode 2. The release was delayed for several months over the C&D as it is, and everyone was itching to get the first completed episode out the door. The team already said in several C&D interviews that the first episode was ready to go, so they felt obliged to release it soon after announcing the C&D reversal instead of telling the fans "hey, we're back, expect the first episode in... I dunno... maybe 3 months from now" and have the enthusiasm die down and people complaining why they're not getting the episode that's finished already :-\
Frankly, I don't think anyone expected releasing a short introductory Episode 1 would be such a huge deal. If you played Episode 1 and liked it, you'd wait a couple of months for Episode 2. After all, you'll be getting the exact same game, only in smaller bites. Live and learn, I guess.
QuoteOne of the greatest critiques about TSL's delayed releases in hindsight has been the team took too long to get something released. And yet, now that we have released something, there's a group of people that just aren't happy. They were expecting a feast and instead they got a cheeseburger. Now I can't say as I blame that group of people for being unhappy.... but I think most of these people are just ignorant to the fact that they got what they wanted. The door has been opened. The remaining episodes will be released and that is because the door has been opened. The window of opportunity has been opened and there's nothing that can be done to stop it. As one poster in the C&D thread put it, once TSL is leaked into the wild, it cannot be unleaked.
You aren't going to please everyone and I'm not saying you should shoot to. But, outside of this site, where the die hards are who will support this project through it all, I haven't seen many reviews or expressed opinions that did not include a little bit of disappointment by the length of the game or by the fact that it was billed as an "Episode" when it was clearly an introduction or prologue.
The expections will always be high for a game that was so long in the making, you can't expect people who have waited as long as the followers of this project have to be happy with an improved version of the same demo that was released years ago as a full episode, unless you communicate that that is what it is.
Think about it this way, the demo was released at least a year ago (probably more, I don't know the exact timeline) and then we get our hands on what is supposed to be the finished game and all we get is more cutscenes and steering the boat to a new island. How disappointed would you be? More importantly, how much faith would you lose in the development team over this? For most of us, the answer to both is a lot! When all that was needed was a little bit of communication to make this all blow over much better. Consider the whole thing a learning experience and move on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg2nXHqRMNk
In case you needed any more illustration of my point, here it is.
This all being said, I am sticking around for Episode 2, which I am excited for. I hope that I'm not disappointed again.
The way I see it, any story needs a set-up: the narrative arc has to be able to rise in the first place. If you take the first 30 pages of most novels, they will be interesting but won't necessarily be a great indicator of where the rest of the book is going. If you take the first section of Heart of Darkness or The Castle or VALIS or The Call of Cthulhu (to name whatever I happen to glance at on my bookshelf), they're certainly interesting and engaging, but shouldn't necessarily be taken as forecasts for what the rest of the book will be like. When all five episodes are done, I'm sure they'll form a shapely narrative arc of which episode 1 is only the first piece.
Also, regarding what DMD posted a few pages back:
QuoteRemember, KQ was essentially supposed to be a mish-mash of fairy tales and myths creating something original and fairy tales aren't exactly known for their emotional or character depth. Why does every character have to have a ten page long back story or psychological profile?
What happened to just having fun? What happened to simplicity?
The KQ series did start out as just mashing fairy tales together: troll bridge + dragon + beanstalk + leprechauns = KQ1. But as the series has progressed, I like to think that the storytelling has become more complex: KQ3 is darker, and Manannan is more fleshed out as a character than any of the NPCs were in KQ1 or 2. KQ4 incorporated complex ties of loyalty, to Rosella's family, to Genesta, to Edgar and even to Lolotte.
(After all, should you really be finding all these treasures for her? Giving her Pandora's Box is surely not a morally acceptable move. And Edgar is very nice to you, but is still turned down when he proposes: on the one hand, that's a bitter moment for him, because he would have been married to Rosella, against her will, had he obeyed his mother; having done the right thing, he's actually been punished. Rosella's refusal of marriage in a fairytale adventure game is also an unusual feminist statement in a world where men are the ones who must kill things and women are the ones who must marry them.)
By the time we get to KQ6, I think there's enough complexity to the plot and characters that the game has, if not broken away from the "mashing farytales" mentality, at least evolved it to such an extent that it's capable of mature and emotionally engaging scenes. The underworld section, with its confrontation against the Lord of the Dead, where the key to solving the puzzle is the realisation that Death's existence is essentially a reworking of the Lucifer story with all its eternal bitterness and envy for humankind, is one of my favourite sequences from the entire series not only because it reworks myths (Charon and a riddling gatekeeper, and even the little internal game-myth of seeing the "tickets to the underworld" sequence when you die), but also because it climaxes with an understanding of an emotionally charged sequence (the Lord of the Dead section) which is essentially the summary of the Lord's tragic arc.
Yes, King's Quest is a jumble of fairytales, but it matured beyond that into coherent and emotional storytelling. Personally, I'd rather have deeply thought out character development to fiendish puzzles; many people won't agree with me, but that's beside the point because you can have both! But to say "I want to have fun; scrap the characters" seems a bit simplistic, to me.
Everything that darthkiwi just said is part of why I like KQ2VGA more than the original. There's a lot more meat to it than just hitting purée on a blender full of fairy tales. And that meat is what makes it more than just another adventure game; it's one of the things that pulls us in and keeps our attention the whole time we're playing, and then it's the biggest thing that keeps us thinking about it even after the credits roll. One of the reasons KQ6 is my favorite out of all of the games is because the story is so rich and wonderful.
Now, I'm not saying that all games have to be like this. Sam and Max is a good example. Because of its lighthearted tone, the characters aren't immensely deep and the stories aren't philosophical, but the games are still great fun. Maniac Mansion and Day of the Tentacle are great, but they're not deep either.
Anyway, as long as the whole of TSL isn't dark and depressing (and it's already been stated that it won't be), then I don't have any qualms with it being so for a little while. Every King's Quest game since KQ3 has had those moments, and I think they did the games a service.
Different tastes... it was the bizarre changes, and the fact that it didn't stay true to the original, that makes me not like it as much as the original... I still enjoy it, and think its fun for what it is, but I don't consider it as good as the classic.
Whereas, if I was comparing KQ1 to KQ1 SCI to KQ1 VGA, I like them nearly equally. Sci added things, but stayed pretty true to the original. KQ1 VGA is just sci with better graphics. For nostalgia reasons I prefer playing through the sci version though (that and I like using the parser, and prefer the official graphics).
First of all, every King's Quest had dark moments -- even KQ2 had a poison lake and vampirism in it! These are the things of the horror genre, NOT of fairy tales. In fact, not since KQ2 have we had a game that mostly a mix-up of fairy tales (and other legends) -- KQ3 all the way through MoE had plotlines that had increasing amounts of depth. It would defy the tradition of the series NOT to add more maturity and depth to the story in this installment. King's Quest has always grown alongside its fans... and we're all pretty mature at this point.
As for being more in-depth with the characters... isn't that the point of having characters who appear in multiple installments of a series? To have them grow and have more depth? Otherwise, shouldn't we have had new characters every single game?
In KQ7 Rosella is selfish -- not wholly selfish -- but think about it. She's full of shallowness, and she isn't trying to save Etheria for the sake of Etheria. She's trying to save Etheria because she's stuck there. That's not to say she's a bad person, and she does help people who need it, but she clearly has a selfish side of her that is *very* evident in that game.
And Alexander's cheerfulness has always defied logic -- he was enslaved by an evil wizard. He's obviously been through *some* trauma!
To summarize, I think you need to play through the series again. This is not so far-fetched from the base material as you are implying.
What makes a great King's Quest game in my opinion is the following:
Deep, engaging, and complex story- not too complex but complex enough that makes it more engaging. I always prefer a sub-villain or multiple sub-villains who work for the main villain, for instance, this evens the playing field and up the stakes of the story instead of the entire royal family versus one bad guy- lets kill the poor man with the ball who doesn't have any helpers. Since Cesar has his own take on the story, I don't have a problem with that. I think it's a great thing that he has his own style.
Interesting Puzzles that are not too easy to figure out and make you rack your brain
At least one labyrinth, preferably 2 this time around
Meshing fairytales together and even bringing in new ones that have not been used before- note the reference to Icarus and Daedalus, which I fully enjoyed. You might even say that there is a reference to a fictional movie called "Dreamscape" in which Dennis Quade must enter the dreams of patients in order to help them.
Multiple endings if possible. That's what made King's Quest 6 so great- the multiple paths you could take to finish the game. Star Ocean 2, for instance, had somewhere around 60 endings, this is just a guess- but they had a lot of endings! Tell me that isn't awesome!
Quote from: crayauchtin on July 18, 2010, 02:33:13 PM
First of all, every King's Quest had dark moments -- even KQ2 had a poison lake and vampirism in it! These are the things of the horror genre, NOT of fairy tales. In fact, not since KQ2 have we had a game that mostly a mix-up of fairy tales (and other legends) -- KQ3 all the way through MoE had plotlines that had increasing amounts of depth. It would defy the tradition of the series NOT to add more maturity and depth to the story in this installment. King's Quest has always grown alongside its fans... and we're all pretty mature at this point.
As for being more in-depth with the characters... isn't that the point of having characters who appear in multiple installments of a series? To have them grow and have more depth? Otherwise, shouldn't we have had new characters every single game?
In KQ7 Rosella is selfish -- not wholly selfish -- but think about it. She's full of shallowness, and she isn't trying to save Etheria for the sake of Etheria. She's trying to save Etheria because she's stuck there. That's not to say she's a bad person, and she does help people who need it, but she clearly has a selfish side of her that is *very* evident in that game.
And Alexander's cheerfulness has always defied logic -- he was enslaved by an evil wizard. He's obviously been through *some* trauma!
To summarize, I think you need to play through the series again. This is not so far-fetched from the base material as you are implying.
They had darkness, but not soap opera angsty Twilight-ness.
There's a difference.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 18, 2010, 02:51:34 PM
They had darkness, but not soap opera angsty Twilight-ness.
There's a difference.
I think we're playing a different game, cause the plot of TSL can't be compared to a story about whiny teenagers falling in love with mystical creatures.
Quote from: Fierce Deity on July 18, 2010, 02:56:22 PM
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 18, 2010, 02:51:34 PM
They had darkness, but not soap opera angsty Twilight-ness.
There's a difference.
I think we're playing a different game, cause the plot of TSL can't be compared to a story about whiny teenagers falling in love with mystical creatures.
Not the plot. The over-dramatic and dreary tone and melodramatic dialogue. There's just an "Emo" feel to the atmosphere of the game.
And you can't say it's because of what happened to Alex and Rosella, because look at KQ5--Graham's whole family is stolen and the game doesn't feel depressing or dreary or ''emo.''
Quote from: Fierce Deity on July 18, 2010, 02:56:22 PM
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 18, 2010, 02:51:34 PM
They had darkness, but not soap opera angsty Twilight-ness.
There's a difference.
I think we're playing a different game, cause the plot of TSL can't be compared to a story about whiny teenagers falling in love with mystical creatures.
I think DMD is trying (unsuccessfully) to be sarcastic.
And for the record, I don't see any angst-ness in TSL. You have something happen to
your children and let's see how you respond to the situation. Stories that revolve around bad things happening to children and how their parents cope is actually not a new concept. It's been around in assorted creative outlets for decades.
Or are you going to tell me that Mel Gibson's portrayal of a father who stops at nothing to save his kidnapped son in the movie Ransom was angsty? I ask because I see a lot of similarities between Ransom and TSL. Or do you consider Liam Neelson's performance in Taken to be angsty because he does what is necessary to save his daughter who had been kidnapped?
It's called empathy folks. Stories such as this require some kind of empathatic response from the audience in order to do it's job and be compelling. If you were King Graham and you are forced to deal with the reality that both of your children have been cursed by an evil entity... how would you feel? Would you be a wooden robot that goes through the motions and feels nothing? Or would you perhaps experience an emotional rollercoaster ranging from guilt and sorrow to anger and rage?
If this is angst.... then I pity those of you who think so.... because clearly those of you who think that are not capable of feeling empathy for a parent who has been thrust into a situation where his children are in danger and he has to cope with it.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 18, 2010, 03:00:46 PM
Not the plot. The over-dramatic and dreary tone and melodramatic dialogue. There's just an "Emo" feel to the atmosphere of the game.
And you can't say it's because of what happened to Alex and Rosella, because look at KQ5--Graham's whole family is stolen and the game doesn't feel depressing or dreary or ''emo.''
And I think Graham's lack of strong emotion regarding that is a SERIOUS flaw in that game. Didn't you lose sympathy for him? He very rarely distraught in that game -- in fact, he only mentions the situation when he is trying to get sympathy or specifically asked what his quest is. Obviously it doesn't bother him *that* much -- and, for me anyways, that's a major problem with the game. (Along with the terrible voice acting, the laziness in regards to describing things, and Cedric. Ugh!)
Quote from: crayauchtin on July 18, 2010, 03:13:05 PM
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 18, 2010, 03:00:46 PM
Not the plot. The over-dramatic and dreary tone and melodramatic dialogue. There's just an "Emo" feel to the atmosphere of the game.
And you can't say it's because of what happened to Alex and Rosella, because look at KQ5--Graham's whole family is stolen and the game doesn't feel depressing or dreary or ''emo.''
And I think Graham's lack of strong emotion regarding that is a SERIOUS flaw in that game. Didn't you lose sympathy for him? He very rarely distraught in that game -- in fact, he only mentions the situation when he is trying to get sympathy or specifically asked what his quest is. Obviously it doesn't bother him *that* much -- and, for me anyways, that's a major problem with the game. (Along with the terrible voice acting, the laziness in regards to describing things, and Cedric. Ugh!)
Not really. It's an unfortunate situation, but it's also a simple story. I don't think KQ was about exploring the psychological conditions or feelings of the characters. It's just a fun game, with the unfortunate plot of a king having to rescue his family. Even beyond Graham's attitude, the atmosphere of the game itself is very upbeat, from the music to Graham's adventures--It's enchanting and it doesn't bog you down on the sadness of the story. King's Quest is like the 1966 Batman; I don't believe the Batman in the '66 series focused on Batman's psychology or the scars left by the murder of his parents--It was just fun escapism. That's what KQ is to me, fun escapsim. Graham is a stoic hero.
Really in all of the games except maybe four and six (which was just a dolled up remake of II) the plot or emotion of it came secondary to the puzzles, atmosphere, colorful characters and fantasy setting. We're not working with Shakespeare or the Sopranos here. King's Quest was never a deep soap opera which fixated on the scars of the characters, and it shouldn't be. It's a fairy tale.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 18, 2010, 03:18:41 PM
Quote from: crayauchtin on July 18, 2010, 03:13:05 PM
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 18, 2010, 03:00:46 PM
Not the plot. The over-dramatic and dreary tone and melodramatic dialogue. There's just an "Emo" feel to the atmosphere of the game.
And you can't say it's because of what happened to Alex and Rosella, because look at KQ5--Graham's whole family is stolen and the game doesn't feel depressing or dreary or ''emo.''
And I think Graham's lack of strong emotion regarding that is a SERIOUS flaw in that game. Didn't you lose sympathy for him? He very rarely distraught in that game -- in fact, he only mentions the situation when he is trying to get sympathy or specifically asked what his quest is. Obviously it doesn't bother him *that* much -- and, for me anyways, that's a major problem with the game. (Along with the terrible voice acting, the laziness in regards to describing things, and Cedric. Ugh!)
Not really. It's an unfortunate situation, but it's also a simple story. I don't think KQ was about exploring the psychological conditions or feelings of the characters. It's just a fun game, with the unfortunate plot of a king having to rescue his family. Even beyond Graham's attitude, the atmosphere of the game itself is very upbeat, from the music to Graham's adventures--It's enchanting and it doesn't bog you down on the sadness of the story. King's Quest is like the 1966 Batman; I don't believe the Batman in the '66 series focused on Batman's psychology or the scars left by the murder of his parents--It was just fun escapism. That's what KQ is to me, fun escapsim. Graham is a stoic hero.
Really in all of the games except maybe four and six (which was just a dolled up remake of II) the plot or emotion of it came secondary to the puzzles, atmosphere, colorful characters and fantasy setting. We're not working with Shakespeare or the Sopranos here. King's Quest was never a deep soap opera which fixated on the scars of the characters, and it shouldn't be. It's a fairy tale.
King's Quest was also marketed for many years as a family-oriented series for children of all ages. Those same children who grew up playing King's Quest are now adults and as such a more mature story is required. TSL has it's whimsy and it's lighthearted moments.... but the subject matter and character development is based around the concept that your average player isn't a child or a family.... it's an adult who grew up playing King's Quest.
And the later King's Quest games did tackle with more mature storylines as they went along. Especially King's Quest 6 with Alhazared murdering Cassima's parents, location-based prejudice between the citizens of the different isles, etc. KQ6 was still a family-oriented game, but it was clearly catered to an older family than KQ2 and 3, which were much lighter in tone and significantly downplayed the darker tones (even Manannon in KQ3 was downplayed as a villian... he could have been portrayed as much darker).
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 18, 2010, 03:00:46 PM
Quote from: Fierce Deity on July 18, 2010, 02:56:22 PM
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 18, 2010, 02:51:34 PM
They had darkness, but not soap opera angsty Twilight-ness.
There's a difference.
I think we're playing a different game, cause the plot of TSL can't be compared to a story about whiny teenagers falling in love with mystical creatures.
Not the plot. The over-dramatic and dreary tone and melodramatic dialogue. There's just an "Emo" feel to the atmosphere of the game.
And you can't say it's because of what happened to Alex and Rosella, because look at KQ5--Graham's whole family is stolen and the game doesn't feel depressing or dreary or ''emo.''
I think the emo atmosphere stems from the weather. On top of the events happening, it's raining outside. However, the storm is being caused by Shadrack (I think), so I don't get an emo feeling from it as much as I get an ominous feeling. Also, people from the island closing up shop makes sense. They would have closed up shop anyway for the wedding, but when the twins became comatose, does anybody expect them to just go back to work? Also, the doomsayer was kind of a downer, I'll agree. But he was also a silver robed guy that is also ominous. This is why I didn't get an emo feeling from the game, cause I already had a different mindset, so naturally, I had a different perspective. But to each their own.
QuoteDidn't you lose sympathy for him?
No, I didn't lose sympathy for him. He knew, and I knew he would be able to save them. He's been on adventures in the past, as KQ7 hintbook jokes, they have adventures almost weekly LOL. He just tightened his hat on his head, and did what he had to do.
Quote from: Baggins on July 18, 2010, 03:33:58 PM
QuoteDidn't you lose sympathy for him?
No, I didn't lose sympathy for him. He knew, and I knew he would be able to save them. He's been on adventures in the past, as KQ7 hintbook jokes, they have adventures almost weekly LOL. He just tightened his hat on his head, and did what he had to do.
Exactly. Graham didn't sit around and wish he could rip flowers up (like he feels in TSL) in KQ5, he just does his duty and isn't a push over to everyone like in TSL. Graham asserts himself in KQV, whereas in TSL it feels like everyone (for example, Hassan) is trying to get over on him, pushing him around or (in the case of Azure) disrespecting him. Graham feels like a different guy here, and the whole atmosphere feels more Hot Topic than KQ.
Hassan's not trying to get one over on him, Hassan is trying to run a business. And Lord Azure has never been respectful of any humans in the series, why would he start with a king from a land that isn't his? They are not the first characters to disrespect Graham -- in KQ5 alone he's walked all over and/or disrespected by the gypsy, Prince Herbert, Princess Alicia, the guy with the wagon, Queen Beetrice (really, he saved her and she gave him one honeycomb... seriously??), the grandfather gnome -- and I haven't even started in on the minor villains from that game none of whom were exactly nice either.
And his other adventures? KQ1 and KQ2 hardly have any characters at all and have so little dialogue you'd never know!
Graham is asserting himself, but as always he is trying to be polite and nice and people are not always going to respond to that by being nice back.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 18, 2010, 03:39:29 PM
Quote from: Baggins on July 18, 2010, 03:33:58 PM
QuoteDidn't you lose sympathy for him?
No, I didn't lose sympathy for him. He knew, and I knew he would be able to save them. He's been on adventures in the past, as KQ7 hintbook jokes, they have adventures almost weekly LOL. He just tightened his hat on his head, and did what he had to do.
Exactly. Graham didn't sit around and wish he could rip flowers up (like he feels in TSL) in KQ5, he just does his duty and isn't a push over to everyone like in TSL. Graham asserts himself in KQV, whereas in TSL it feels like everyone (for example, Hassan) is trying to get over on him, pushing him around or (in the case of Azure) disrespecting him. Graham feels like a different guy here, and the whole atmosphere feels more Hot Topic than KQ.
Yes Graham does his duty in KQ5... as he does in TSL.... but how does he
feel about doing his duty? Is he not allowed to feel anything? Is that really what you think of humanity? Something bad happens and simply do your duty... don't think about what prompted you to action.... just do it and be done with it.
Quote from: oberonqa on July 18, 2010, 03:26:12 PM
King's Quest was also marketed for many years as a family-oriented series for children of all ages. Those same children who grew up playing King's Quest are now adults and as such a more mature story is required.
You're right, most of that crowd is now age 25-35. Which, one could argue, makes the choice to go "teen fantasy" even less appropriate.
I wrote this kind of thing before, but...
QuoteAnd Alexander's cheerfulness has always defied logic -- he was enslaved by an evil wizard. He's obviously been through *some* trauma!
Eh, if you think about it most of the royal family would be majorly effed up by the time MoE comes around. I mean, look at them...
Valanice: Spent an undetermined amount of time in complete isolation in an utterly alien realm. Now, if you lock someone in a room and completely deprive them of contact, it'll start getting to them eventually, but if you want to mess them up further, fill the room with all sorts of funky lights and colors. Eventually they'll start wondering if what they're seeing is real or if it's all in their mind. Making someone question their own sense of reality is fun for all the family. It's a miracle Valanice can stand sleeping in a room with the door closed.
Rosella: When she was young, her twin brother was abducted and it seems her parents spent a great deal of time grieving over him and searching for him. If that kind of thing happens to a kid in real life, he can develop some serious inferiority issues. The kid feels the disappeared sibling is always on the parents' minds and becomes either resentful towards the sibling or (more commonly) become starved for attention. Yes, becoming the willing sacrifice for the dragon in KQ3 was in fact the ideal way for Rosella to finally stop living in her brother's shadow. She'd die, but she'd be remembered on equal terms with him. Oh, she also grew up in a smouldering cinder of a realm, which probably does wonders to one's disposition towards life. With the troubles of the kidnapped Alexander and the destruction of Daventry on their minds, I wouldn't be surprised if Graham and Valanice neglected Rosella at least part of the time.
Edgar: Was kidnapped as an infant and grew up in a dark castle with an utterly evil fairy as his sole parent and role model. Lolotte was so twisted the positive energy from Cupid's arrow killed her. You know what a domestic situation like that looks like, don't you?
- Edgar: Mommy, I feel under the weather. Can I get a hug?
- Lolotte: Edgar, you know mommy's allergic to love. She gets a bad rash from hugs. Why don't we go and mutilate some peasants on that device in the dungeon?
- Edgar: Sniff, okay.
Anyway, we all know what happens to kids who grow up with distant parents who refuse to give them affection whatsoever. There's no way Edgar could ever function in a normal, loving family. It'd feel threatening and alien to him. Genesta's statement "You have a beautiful soul, Edgar" is kinda hogwash. We all know that how people turn out has less to do with what kind of genes they're born with and a lot to do with how they're raised in the first 1.5 decade of their life. Nevertheless, Edgar has issues. Unavoidably so. This is the guy Rosella's gonna start a family with. Hooboy.
Cassima: Was kidnapped by an evil wizard, treated like a slave (double whammy after being used to the life of royalty), when she came back she found out her parents both died and then she spent another undetermined amount of time in total isolation. Since she probably had a fairly normal childhood (compared to the rest), the local shrinks probably consider her only a mildly interesting case compared to the rest, if the undoubtedly massive post-traumatic stress-syndrome is disregarded. (no doubt her homecoming cranked said shell shock up to eleven)
Alexander: Edgar could already be considered a basket case, but at least Lolotte acknowledged him as her son. Manannan wouldn't even relate to Alex in that way. Complete denial of any affection whatsoever, severe physical and emotional abuse and total neglect to the kid's needs. They did this kind of thing as an experiment with monkeys and said monkey became either unstable and prone to bouts of extreme aggression or completely catatonic. Of course, Manannan didn't really have to worry about what kind of people his slaves became since he killed them on their 18th birthday anyhow, but it's really questionable whether Alex will ever have something like a life. Kids in real life with Alexander's upbringing tend to be extremely messed up. Obviously Alex isn't catatonic, so chances are high he's a very unstable person whose extreme mental conditioning prevents him from letting out his angst in front of others, so he wears a stepford smile during the day, and he secretly tortures puppies in the basement at night. (this is probably why you can't enter there in episode 1 yet) Due to his upbringing, Alexander would be even less capable of functioning in a normal domestic situation than Edgar and it's doubtful his marriage to Cassima would last long. And they put this guy in charge of the Green Isles. Zounds indeed.
With this in mind, it begs the question why KQ is still so cheerful, colorful and happy-go-lucky, even though its main cast is disfunction junction personified. The answer is, for the same reason fairy tales are the happy-go-lucky stories we tell our children in the evening. Let's take a quick look:
Parental Abandonment: Hansel and Gretel, Rapunzel and Tom Thumb too.
Domestic Abuse: Cinderella, Rapunzel and probably Snow White as well.
Stockholm Syndrome: Sheherazad. For 1001 nights, she prolongs her life by telling stories to a sultan who planned to kill her. (insert Dread Pirate Roberts joke here) After that, the sultan ditches the idea of having her killed and proposes to her instead. She accepts. Similar story to the female protagonist of Rumplestiltskin.
Self-mutilation: Cinderella's stepsister cuts off her toe in an attempt to have her foot fit in the glass slipper.
Yeah, fairy tales tend to have some extremely disturbing sides and no doubt if we'd look at these tales through a more realistic scoop, we'd deduce that a lot of those protagonists probably have some pretty severe trauma underneath. No doubt we could create a more realistic version of Cinderella, whose traumatic domestic situation causes her to spend the biggest part of the day angsting, instead of singing happy-go-lucky songs with mice and birds. It'd be more logical, for sure. The reason why fairy tales seem happy-go-lucky despite their extremely disturbing subthemes is because the mental results of those traumatic experiences are handwaved away as detracting from the overall story and therefore unimportant. This effect is what makes fairy tales fairy tales and this effect is carried over to KQ as well... this is why Alex is a functioning human being in the KQ games instead of an angst-ridden mental wreck. I'm not certain what'd happen if you'd take this effect away. The fairy tales would probably stop being fairy tales. Instead, you'd have a medieval version of Neon Genesis Evangelion.
So yeah, Alex' cheerfulness (and overall personality and functioning) defy logic, but this very defiance of logic is an integral part of the fairy tales that form the base of the KQ series.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashmean.jpg)
Quote from: Erpy on July 18, 2010, 04:32:47 PM
I wrote this kind of thing before, but...
QuoteAnd Alexander's cheerfulness has always defied logic -- he was enslaved by an evil wizard. He's obviously been through *some* trauma!
Eh, if you think about it most of the royal family would be majorly effed up by the time MoE comes around. I mean, look at them...
Valanice: Spent an undetermined amount of time in complete isolation in an utterly alien realm. Now, if you lock someone in a room and completely deprive them of contact, it'll start getting to them eventually, but if you want to mess them up further, fill the room with all sorts of funky lights and colors. Eventually they'll start wondering if what they're seeing is real or if it's all in their mind. Making someone question their own sense of reality is fun for all the family. It's a miracle Valanice can stand sleeping in a room with the door closed.
Rosella: When she was young, her twin brother was abducted and it seems her parents spent a great deal of time grieving over him and searching for him. If that kind of thing happens to a kid in real life, he can develop some serious inferiority issues. The kid feels the disappeared sibling is always on the parents' minds and becomes either resentful towards the sibling or (more commonly) become starved for attention. Yes, becoming the willing sacrifice for the dragon in KQ3 was in fact the ideal way for Rosella to finally stop living in her brother's shadow. She'd die, but she'd be remembered on equal terms with him. Oh, she also grew up in a smouldering cinder of a realm, which probably does wonders to one's disposition towards life. With the troubles of the kidnapped Alexander and the destruction of Daventry on their minds, I wouldn't be surprised if Graham and Valanice neglected Rosella at least part of the time.
Edgar: Was kidnapped as an infant and grew up in a dark castle with an utterly evil fairy as his sole parent and role model. Lolotte was so twisted the positive energy from Cupid's arrow killed her. You know what a domestic situation like that looks like, don't you?
- Edgar: Mommy, I feel under the weather. Can I get a hug?
- Lolotte: Edgar, you know mommy's allergic to love. She gets a bad rash from hugs. Why don't we go and mutilate some peasants on that device in the dungeon?
- Edgar: Sniff, okay.
Anyway, we all know what happens to kids who grow up with distant parents who refuse to give them affection whatsoever. There's no way Edgar could ever function in a normal, loving family. It'd feel threatening and alien to him. Genesta's statement "You have a beautiful soul, Edgar" is kinda hogwash. We all know that how people turn out has less to do with what kind of genes they're born with and a lot to do with how they're raised in the first 1.5 decade of their life. Nevertheless, Edgar has issues. Unavoidably so. This is the guy Rosella's gonna start a family with. Hooboy.
Cassima: Was kidnapped by an evil wizard, treated like a slave (double whammy after being used to the life of royalty), when she came back she found out her parents both died and then she spent another undetermined amount of time in total isolation. Since she probably had a fairly normal childhood (compared to the rest), the local shrinks probably consider her only a mildly interesting case compared to the rest, if the undoubtedly massive post-traumatic stress-syndrome is disregarded. (no doubt her homecoming cranked said shell shock up to eleven)
Alexander: Edgar could already be considered a basket case, but at least Lolotte acknowledged him as her son. Manannan wouldn't even relate to Alex in that way. Complete denial of any affection whatsoever, severe physical and emotional abuse and total neglect to the kid's needs. They did this kind of thing as an experiment with monkeys and said monkey became either unstable and prone to bouts of extreme aggression or completely catatonic. Of course, Manannan didn't really have to worry about what kind of people his slaves became since he killed them on their 18th birthday anyhow, but it's really questionable whether Alex will ever have something like a life. Kids in real life with Alexander's upbringing tend to be extremely messed up. Obviously Alex isn't catatonic, so chances are high he's a very unstable person whose extreme mental conditioning prevents him from letting out his angst in front of others, so he wears a stepford smile during the day, and he secretly tortures puppies in the basement at night. (this is probably why you can't enter there in episode 1 yet) Due to his upbringing, Alexander would be even less capable of functioning in a normal domestic situation than Edgar and it's doubtful his marriage to Cassima would last long. And they put this guy in charge of the Green Isles. Zounds indeed.
With this in mind, it begs the question why KQ is still so cheerful, colorful and happy-go-lucky, even though its main cast is disfunction junction personified. The answer is, for the same reason fairy tales are the happy-go-lucky stories we tell our children in the evening. Let's take a quick look:
Parental Abandonment: Hansel and Gretel, Rapunzel and Tom Thumb too.
Domestic Abuse: Cinderella, Rapunzel and probably Snow White as well.
Stockholm Syndrome: Sheherazad. For 1001 nights, she prolongs her life by telling stories to a sultan who planned to kill her. (insert Dread Pirate Roberts joke here) After that, the sultan ditches the idea of having her killed and proposes to her instead. She accepts. Similar story to the female protagonist of Rumplestiltskin.
Self-mutilation: Cinderella's stepsister cuts off her toe in an attempt to have her foot fit in the glass slipper.
Yeah, fairy tales tend to have some extremely disturbing sides and no doubt if we'd look at these tales through a more realistic scoop, we'd deduce that a lot of those protagonists probably have some pretty severe trauma underneath. No doubt we could create a more realistic version of Cinderella, whose traumatic domestic situation causes her to spend the biggest part of the day angsting, instead of singing happy-go-lucky songs with mice and birds. It'd be more logical, for sure. The reason why fairy tales seem happy-go-lucky despite their extremely disturbing subthemes is because the mental results of those traumatic experiences are handwaved away as detracting from the overall story and therefore unimportant. This effect is what makes fairy tales fairy tales and this effect is carried over to KQ as well... this is why Alex is a functioning human being in the KQ games instead of an angst-ridden mental wreck. I'm not certain what'd happen if you'd take this effect away. The fairy tales would probably stop being fairy tales. Instead, you'd have a medieval version of Neon Genesis Evangelion.
So yeah, Alex' cheerfulness (and overall personality and functioning) defy logic, but this very defiance of logic is an integral part of the fairy tales that form the base of the KQ series.
(http://www.agdiforums.com/forum/images/avatars/moodpics/Nashmean.jpg)
That that escape from logic is what made the games so fun.
Escapism, people. Why does everything have to be so realistic?
Can't anything be simple, and not complex?
What is with media today? Everything has to be emotional, or psychological, or gritty, or realistic.
Come on. Escape for a little while. It's fun.
Quote from: oberonqa on July 18, 2010, 04:11:51 PM
Yes Graham does his duty in KQ5... as he does in TSL.... but how does he feel about doing his duty? Is he not allowed to feel anything? Is that really what you think of humanity? Something bad happens and simply do your duty... don't think about what prompted you to action.... just do it and be done with it.
Random comment from KQ5
What a wonderful bluebird. It could almost make Graham happy again if it wasn't for his family.This was the easiest one I could go to, only had to cross 2 screens to get to it. There are more like these. maybe they are not as gloomy as TSL's but they are trying to set a tone in most KQ's that the adventurer (in this case Graham) isn't really as happy and careless as some want to picture him.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 18, 2010, 04:47:02 PM
That that escape from logic is what made the games so fun.
Escapism, people. Why does everything have to be so realistic?
Can't anything be simple, and not complex?
What is with media today? Everything has to be emotional, or psychological, or gritty, or realistic.
Come on. Escape for a little while. It's fun.
I'm not seeing how TSL is "realistic, psychological, or emotional". Is TSL departing from the trends of a fairy tale? Yes, most certainly. But is it preventing you from an "escape"? Not at all. You're still playing the game. That's a form of escape in itself. The story and atmosphere may be outside of what was normal for the series, but it is in no way complex. It's easy to understand, it is straightforward, and it is still in a realm of magic and myth (not realistic at all).
If you are suggesting that the "emo" mood is the only thing that is making TSL complex, realistic, and psychological, then you need to be more specific, because the definition of those terms do not adhere to TSL's situation.
Ya, exactly, Graham had some feelings in KQ5, but he doesn't show them outwardly, he holds a stiff upper lip, and does what he has to do, he even manages to crack a few jokes with Cedric, and he never takes out his sadness on any character treating them with the utmost dignity.
Just a couple of thoughts about all this...
1. lol. I'm not sure saying that what they've done to KQ is what Nolan did to Batman is the way to turn anyone against anything about this game. What Nolan did to Batman was make him watchable again while at the same time making him culturally relevant. That being said, I'm not sure this comes anywhere close.
2. Yes, they should have announced ahead of time that Episode 1 was a prologue. In fact, I'd go as far as to say they shouldn't have even called it "Episode 1." And you can argue that maybe some people might not have downloaded the pack if they'd known, but I have two responses to that. First, that you can just as easily say that if they'd known, they'd have simply waited for more to be released. Second, you can most definately argue that the number of people who DID download the game and were put off by the length might very well outnumber the number of people who simply wouldn't download a prologue.
3. No, you can't blame Activision for wanting to hold on to their IP. What annoys me more than anything here, though, is that Activision owns this IP at all. For one thing, they're not planning to do a thing with it (which, by the way, with both Monkey Island games released on Xbox Live Arcade, is a BAD decision...). Love 'em or hate 'em, Kings Quest is a large piece of gaming history, and Activision is squandering it.
4. As one of those 35-year-olds who grew up playing all of these games, I don't get this debate on the tone. I certainly don't get how anyone gets off calling this installment "emo" just because the tone is darker. KQ was never as light-hearted as, say, Space Quest. And this certainly isn't as dark as The Colonel's Bequest or Phatasmagoria. In fact, it feels very much like a reversal of roles from KQ4 (where Graham was comatose and Rosella did the adventuring). Why is everything that decides to touch on anything emotional beyond "dude, this sux" is instantly labeled as all-around emo?? If this were emo, Graham wouldn't have put on his adventurer's cap and gone out to do something about the situation, he'd have hunkered down in his bathroom with a razor blade and whined a lot about how much his life sucks.
I can only think to myself that the darker the situation at the beginning, the more powerful the resolution at the end, and if there is any sense of closure at the end of this game, that's exactly what we need.
Honestly I don't think the game has gotten all that dark just yet. I'll have to wait and see what happens in future episodes.
Honestly as far as Darkness goes, MOE, was much darker... and Realm of the Dead in KQ6 was much darker than Episode 1. Some of the Ooga Booga stuff seemed darker.... Oh ya the night sequence in KQ4 seemed darker :p...
:p...
However, I would say that some of the snarky and fourth-wall breaking narration is juvenile and adds little to the story... That has nothing to do with "darkness" or so called "angst".
Quote from: Baggins on July 18, 2010, 05:45:40 PM
Honestly I don't think the game has gotten all that dark just yet. I'll have to wait and see what happens in future episodes.
Honestly as far as Darkness goes, MOE, was much darker... and Realm of the Dead in KQ6 was much darker than Episode 1. Some of the Ooga Booga stuff seemed darker.... Oh ya the night sequence in KQ4 seemed darker :p...
:p...
However, I would say that some of the snarky and fourth-wall breaking narration is juvenile and adds little to the story... That has nothing to do with "darkness" or so called "angst".
Like I said, I find a big difference between darkness--suspense, tension, eeriness--and angst.
There's a difference, for example, between HP Lovecraft's works and Stephanie Meyer's. One is so teenage it's not even funny.
The earlier had the previous kind of darkness-scariness. Not emotional angsty-ness.
And Fierce Diety--Cesar has said the focus is going to be on Graham's psychological feelings and the psychological impact of Mannanan on Alex.
I don't even really see angst just yet, well maybe except for your reference to Graham wanting to rip up flower pots, destroy mirrors, and vases, :p...
I do see alot of juvenile pointless narration of the non-story sort about "Ninjas, Samurai, anime, Japan, :p'', which are bit too "Hot Topic" as you said for my taste.
I really don't like the break the fourth wall style narration (luckily that king of thing was extremly limited in the earlier KQ).
Quote from: Baggins on July 18, 2010, 06:05:06 PM
I really don't like the break the fourth wall style narration (luckily that king of thing was extremly limited in the earlier KQ).
I can't say it really bothers me, but it does feel closer to SQ than KQ, no doubt. But except for the tongue-in-cheek nature of some of the comments, I'm not sure how much different it really is than KQ5.
And going back to tone for a second, it just occured to me that the entire first act of KQ7 was pretty drab, too. Heck, that was closer to emo than this installment is...
QuoteI can't say it really bothers me, but it does feel closer to SQ than KQ, no doubt.
Oh, if it was Space Quest, I would actually expect the game to break the fourth wall. That's part of Space Quest's charm, part of what the whole Narrator in space quest was.
QuoteBut except for the tongue-in-cheek nature of some of the comments, I'm not sure how much different it really is than KQ5.
I can't think of any place where KQ5 broke the fourth wall. KQ5 also had a more limited narrator, there were times when I wish it would have explained some of the things I was looking at, like in KQ6 :p... I was annoyed to get the big ol red X when looking at some points on the screen.
Well, ya I was going to say Rosella's comments were pretty emo in KQ7, and many of her lines were pretty juvenile (that's meant to be part of the story). She was uh can I say very whiny... a bit of a brat at points...
That game didn't have a narrator though.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 18, 2010, 05:55:13 PM
Like I said, I find a big difference between darkness--suspense, tension, eeriness--and angst.
There's a difference, for example, between HP Lovecraft's works and Stephanie Meyer's. One is so teenage it's not even funny.
The earlier had the previous kind of darkness-scariness. Not emotional angsty-ness.
And Fierce Diety--Cesar has said the focus is going to be on Graham's psychological feelings and the psychological impact of Mannanan on Alex.
I understand that, but that isn't psychological. Emotional, maybe. But definitely not psychological.
Also, I still don't understand what you are getting at with the metaphors. You say that TSL is angst, and then don't give an example. You say the game is like Twilight, Hot Topic, and Emo, but then you don't give an example. You quote Erpy, and then add on some terminology that doesn't apply to the game (like complex, realistic, and psychological). It's not any of these things, and while you are clearly convinced that this game is "Hot Topic", I would just like an explanation that doesn't lead to another comment about how "Twilight" it is.
Personally, I like how TSL has a more dreary, realistic, humanistic feel. It gives more life and emotion to what is normally a fairly straightforward series.
And again, this is only the first episode we are talking about. I am sure future episodes will broaden the scope of TSL's emotional spectrum.
Quote from: Baggins on July 18, 2010, 06:10:20 PM
QuoteI can't say it really bothers me, but it does feel closer to SQ than KQ, no doubt.
Oh, if it was Space Quest, I would actually expect the game to break the fourth wall. That's part of Space Quest's charm, part of what the whole Narrator in space quest was.
I think the TSL team needs to think harder about what voice the narrator is supposed to bring. As it stands now, the narration is too many things: expository, jokester, telling Graham's inner thoughts, self-aware narrator acknowledging the fact that it's just a game. It's a bit of a mess. If they were going for a darker, more serious tone, then why in the world would they include such an often nonchalant style of narration. PO should pick a voice and stick with it. Myself, I think it would be cool and less disjointed if the narrator was Graham's own voice as he thought to himself.
Quote from: sahara on July 19, 2010, 04:20:01 AM
Quote from: Baggins on July 18, 2010, 06:10:20 PM
QuoteI can't say it really bothers me, but it does feel closer to SQ than KQ, no doubt.
Oh, if it was Space Quest, I would actually expect the game to break the fourth wall. That's part of Space Quest's charm, part of what the whole Narrator in space quest was.
I think the TSL team needs to think harder about what voice the narrator is supposed to bring. As it stands now, the narration is too many things: expository, jokester, telling Graham's inner thoughts, self-aware narrator acknowledging the fact that it's just a game. It's a bit of a mess. If they were going for a darker, more serious tone, then why in the world would they include such an often nonchalant style of narration. PO should pick a voice and stick with it. Myself, I think it would be cool and less disjointed if the narrator was Graham's own voice as he thought to himself.
I thought having the characters' own voice as they think or identify something would be a good idea too. I don't really mind the narrator's quirks, but I just feel like this project has already taken so many steps into a modern standard, that a first-person interaction from a character would be appropriate.
I agree with Sahara. The narrator feels all over the place and is frequently just annoying.
The fairy tales we're talking about are Disney-ified, actually. Fairy tales, in their original forms and INCREDIBLY angst-ridden, dark and depressing. So, in that sense, TSL is even being more faithful to the original source material. :P
That's a very good point. I hadn't thought of it that way.
You lose points in the older KQ if you tried to take the more traditional route to the myths, fairytales, and legends, with the exception of killing Witch Dahlia, and how you Kill Dracula (about the only violence truly allowed in the earlier games). Obviously Lolotte doesn't directly follow the Wizard of Oz although she is inspired by it.
Try leading the goat to the bridge in KQ1, that's both violent and traditional, and you gain points for doing so.
Well its semi traditional, as in the orignal story, the goats were brothers that tried to cross one at a time, tricking the goat into thinking the next brother would better tasting. Graham's version rather skips most of the story, and misses most of the "trickery" aspects of the story.
Quote from: crayauchtin on July 19, 2010, 07:07:07 PM
The fairy tales we're talking about are Disney-ified, actually. Fairy tales, in their original forms and INCREDIBLY angst-ridden, dark and depressing. So, in that sense, TSL is even being more faithful to the original source material. :P
I thought TSL's ''source material'' is King's Quest?
Well, those aren't our only source materials--KQ games traditionally rely on myths, fairy tales and folklore quite a bit.
Quote from: TheReturnofDMD on July 20, 2010, 09:28:46 AM
I thought TSL's ''source material'' is King's Quest?
And the source material for King's Quest....?
Weren't you arguing, basically, that this was too dark and angsty for what is, essentially, a collection of fairy tales smooshed together?
I mean, have you read the original Rapunzel, for instance?
You have this girl locked in a tower by this repulsive witch who coos over her and constantly brushes her hair. While the witch is away, a prince traveling in the woods finds the tower. Since there's no non-magical way in or out, he asks Rapunzel to allow him to climb up her hair. And, yes, in the original version, this tears some out. That's how the witch realizes that she is having daily visits from someone else -- so the witch waits in the shadows for him to come visit, blinds him and banishes him to a desert to die and then cuts Rapunzel's hair and leaves her abandoned in the woods with no experience taking care of herself.
Then, simply because even the depressing stories are meant to have happy endings, the prince and Rapunzel miraculously and inexplicably find each other, and Rapunzel's tears (which are both at happiness and the shock of seeing him all scarred, beat up, and blind -- no longer such a hottie) heal his blindness.
Gosh, doesn't that just make you feel all warm and fuzzy?
And that's not even the worst one. :P
Well, there was Weeping Willow in KQ5, who had her heart ripped out (the heart turned to gold), and then her body turned into a tree. With the prince banished to another land. There are shades of traditional Rupunzel story there, and some of the other evil jealous witch stories.
That's actually kinda closer to the Grimms style fairy tales...
The King's Quest companion added in back some of the Snow Queen's story from the Hans Christian Anderson story into Queen Icebella backstory. She is based on said character (or similar characters in other fairy tales, Narnia?).
http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Queen_Icebella
Also attempt to open Pandora's Box ;), she can follow after Pandora and release all evil things into the world (albeit it kills her).
Quote from: Baggins on July 20, 2010, 02:29:53 PM
Well, there was Weeping Willow in KQ5, who had her heart ripped out (the heart turned to gold), and then her body turned into a tree. With the prince banished to another land. There are shades of traditional Rupunzel story there, and some of the other evil jealous witch stories.
I used Rapunzel as an example because it kiiiiind of shows up in KQ5 with the Weeping Willow -- an example of source material that is certainly *not* very happy.
QuoteThe King's Quest companion added in back some of the Snow Queen's story from the Hans Christian Anderson story into Queen Icebella backstory. She is based on said character (or similar characters in other fairy tales, Narnia?).
Narnia is kind of a fairy-tale-ized version of the Bible, in actuality, taking inspiration from both. The Snow Queen/White Queen/whatever-her-name-was-I-can't-remember-right-now :P was inspired by the Hans Christian Anderson story as well.
QuoteAlso attempt to open Pandora's Box ;), she can follow after Pandora and release all evil things into the world (albeit it kills her).
Technically speaking that's a myth, not a fairy tale. :P
Well, the thing is King's Quest is hugely inspired by Fairy Tales, Myths, and Religion.
David and Goliath appears in KQ1 (mixed with Jack and the Beanstalk, a bit of Jack the Giant Killer), although you lose points for taking that route.
Jack the Giant Killer, actually, is inspired by the Brave Little Tailor, which is in turn inspired by the Greek myth about Cadmus... so in that sense, it's kind of not really an "original fairy tale" like most of them are. :P Although, I'm sure you could trace most fairy tales back into mythology if you tried -- Jack the Giant Killer is just utterly blatant. :P
I don't think any fairy tale is 'original' perse, most can be traced back to earlier legends and myth from earlier cultures. We as humans tend to recycle alot. There really are only something like few dozen story archtypes that can be told, and all stories are variations of those archetypes... :p
Depending on who you ask, it can be narrowed down to either just one basic story archetype or as many as 36. Still, even 36 is an awfully slim number considering how many stories we have!
http://www.ipl.org/div/farq/plotFARQ.html
Quote from: crayauchtin on July 20, 2010, 01:42:10 PMI mean, have you read the original Rapunzel, for instance?
You have this girl locked in a tower by this repulsive witch who coos over her and constantly brushes her hair. While the witch is away, a prince traveling in the woods finds the tower. Since there's no non-magical way in or out, he asks Rapunzel to allow him to climb up her hair. And, yes, in the original version, this tears some out. That's how the witch realizes that she is having daily visits from someone else -- so the witch waits in the shadows for him to come visit, blinds him and banishes him to a desert to die and then cuts Rapunzel's hair and leaves her abandoned in the woods with no experience taking care of herself.
Then, simply because even the depressing stories are meant to have happy endings, the prince and Rapunzel miraculously and inexplicably find each other, and Rapunzel's tears (which are both at happiness and the shock of seeing him all scarred, beat up, and blind -- no longer such a hottie) heal his blindness.
Gosh, doesn't that just make you feel all warm and fuzzy?
Well, actually...yeah. I mean, sure, it's a tragic story, but in the end true love prevails and they live happily ever after, even after everything that happened. That
does make me feel warm and fuzzy.
Quote from: crayauchtin on July 20, 2010, 03:21:05 PMThe Snow Queen/White Queen/whatever-her-name-was-I-can't-remember-right-now :P
Jadis, the White Witch. :)
Quote from: Enchantermon on July 20, 2010, 04:34:22 PM
Well, actually...yeah. I mean, sure, it's a tragic story, but in the end true love prevails and they live happily ever after, even after everything that happened. That does make me feel warm and fuzzy.
I guess the end does, sure, but it's an awfully dark and, yes, angsty tale (jealousy is like, prime teenage angsty material!). That's where KQ comes from, so I don't see why it's a problem if TSL is dark and even a bit angsty -- it's true to the source. That was my main point.
I see. In that, I don't disagree with you.
Of course Hagatha locked Valanice in the tower out of Jealousy over beauty... that's a bit angsty in a small way. Straight of Rapunzel/Queen in Snow White/Sleeping Beauty.
Granted its missing the whole poison apple (Snow White), prince saves the 'dead'/'sleeping' princess angle from Snow White/Sleeping Beauty.
Quote from: Baggins on July 20, 2010, 05:05:58 PMOf course Hagatha locked Rosella in the tower out of Jealousy over beauty... that's a bit angsty in a small way.
In KQ2+, yes, but is that also the story in the original game?
There was a Rosella in KQ2? :-\
Ha...I didn't even notice that.
Well, being an old time adventure gamer (and really really olde' too. Still have a copy of LSL 1) I wasn't very impressed. Not to say it wasn't ok. Just that is should have been introduced as... "volume 1 - An introduction to TSL". That way, no upset gamers. It's just basic marketing 101.
It was inevitable that all the hype for a 10 minute game would lead to a lot of disappointment. Problem is with episodic games, they don't have the pull of a full blown game either. And this was "essentially" promoted as the "release of TSL". The mention of episodes was pretty much in the "fine print".
As much I got a kick out of sam & max... haven't touched the episode games. Real turn off to me. Just hate to stop in the middle of a game and wait. No idea if any of them were ever completed. Just no interest in following them.
Will I continue to play TSL? Sure. But will likely wait for all releases before I go for it. Provided I notice that they've all been released.
On the other hand... what's with the like 6 point font? Us olde' guys really really have to squint to read it! Contrary to popular belief, old eyes really can't read the phone book!!! ;)
And a FWIW, I was kind of disappointed in the graphics. Being an "old timer" I think I would have enjoyed a more old fashioned "cartoony" look. Not very fond of the new "'puppet" type graphics. But... that's just me.
Excellent point on the episode length, believe me when I say that horse has been absolutely beat to death and Episode 2 is going to be much more of what you're looking for.
Not sure what to say about you not being aware that the games were being released in episodic format - this project has always been broken into pieces in one way or another, we've never said it was one big game.
I'd recommend going after Episode 2 when it comes online, I think you'll really enjoy it quite a bit and it should take at least 2-3 hours to play through.
Heh, yeah, they horse died way back. Read thru 3 pages and the "olde eyes" just about failed. :)
Yeah I did read about the episodes but it seemed get pushed under the rug a bit and I believe the release just said... released. (But olde eyes means an olde mind too!) ;)
Quote from: garyoa1 on July 20, 2010, 09:23:25 PMAs much I got a kick out of sam & max... haven't touched the episode games. Real turn off to me. Just hate to stop in the middle of a game and wait. No idea if any of them were ever completed. Just no interest in following them.
There are currently two completed Seasons of Sam and Max. While there are things in the second Season that reference the first, the second (so far anyway; I'm on Episode 3) stands completely on its own.
Anyway, waiting between episodes isn't mandatory. Just wait to buy/play the game until all episodes are released. This goes for Sam and Max as well as TSL.
Yeah but I'm old and wierd, Enchant. :) Just lost interest entirely after a few months of waiting for a complete version and just gave up and never went back.
Call it stubborn, spiteful or whatever. Just got annoyed with the whole concept.
Eh. Whatever floats your boat. The concept just isn't for everyone, I guess. :)
BTW, don't get me wrong. The TSL gang did do a great job. Game ran flawlessly. They all deserve a handshake and a great pat on the back for a job well done. It is greatly appreciated. At least by me.
Quote from: Enchantermon on July 20, 2010, 08:07:29 PM
Quote from: Baggins on July 20, 2010, 05:05:58 PMOf course Hagatha locked Valanice in the tower out of Jealousy over beauty... that's a bit angsty in a small way.
In KQ2+, yes, but is that also the story in the original game?
Yes. In KQ2+ there's a bit more to it than that. In KQ2, there's not. That's it. The whole thing. :P
PS Fixed the captive princess! :P
Quote from: crayauchtin on July 20, 2010, 10:40:31 PM
Quote from: Enchantermon on July 20, 2010, 08:07:29 PM
Quote from: Baggins on July 20, 2010, 05:05:58 PMOf course Hagatha locked Valanice in the tower out of Jealousy over beauty... that's a bit angsty in a small way.
In KQ2+, yes, but is that also the story in the original game?
Yes. In KQ2+ there's a bit more to it than that. In KQ2, there's not. That's it. The whole thing. :P
PS Fixed the captive princess! :P
Huh. Didn't know that was also part of the original game. Must have missed that somewhere along the line.
Probably because it's mentioned almost never in the actual game itself? Like, you really have to go out of your way to find the plotline. :P
Oh. Well then, I don't feel quite so bad. ;)
QuoteIn KQ2+, yes, but is that also the story in the original game?
Yes, course you really only know about it, if you bother to read the manual.
There might be a few offhand remarks in the game itself but it involves looking/talking, using the right parser commands to discover the story details in the game. It doesn't force feed you the plot in the game.
Ah, so it does. I just read it in the Collection's PDF file. As I did I started recognizing the sentences; I think I read it once a really long time ago and just forgot until now.