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The Lounge => Random Talk => Topic started by: Baggins on August 19, 2010, 06:38:14 AM

Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Baggins on August 19, 2010, 06:38:14 AM
Lord of the Rings is "teen fantasy?  ???
Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Delling on August 19, 2010, 07:06:16 AM
Well, it's fantasy... and most people read it in their teens... *shrugs*


... Cheap deaths have become the norm to solve story arcs (I'm looking at YOU, Joss...). Genuinely heroic or good characters are thrown under the bus in favor of folks I'd rather not support, or considered antiquated (Marvel, Civil War). There's also a proliferation of games that, while very entertaining and well-constructed, make me feel worse after playing.

Crapsack worlds and anti-heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as "That's the way it is. I can't change it," and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight.
:thumbsup: *likes Allronix's post*
Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: KatieHal on August 19, 2010, 07:15:59 AM
Yeah I imagine I'd say LoTR is more jut generally "fantasy" than 'teen', but nor is it overwhelmingly adult or something, either.

haha, oh Allronix, you wound my love for Joss Whedon! Not that I don't see your point, those do tend to happen a lot with him. But it can be a nice change from the formula of everyone lives, every time, just because they're heroes. You fight the forces of evil, after all, someone's likely to be taken down. But I also prefer stories where I can still LIKE the main character(s), yes.
Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Baggins on August 19, 2010, 08:05:40 AM
What's 'adult'? LOTRO is generally classified as "high fantasy".

Tolkien was primarily a philogist, not a writer. He didn't really write most of his work for any particular demographic, its been said most of his work was written for himself, and the purpose of expanding his own mythology. Though he wanted to make a kinda of medieval mythology for England, which he felt it was lacking (most  of the medieval mythology in England was imported from other countries).

Sure the Hobbit was written for children. Fellowship of the Rings started out as more or less a continuation of that level, but about halfway through the book he switched gears. Turning it into something else.

Its been claimed by some that Tolkein actually founded the subgenre of "adult fantasy"with LOTR. Before that it was pretty much 'fairy tales' and children's fluff paraphrasing Tolkien's own words.

I suppose some could argue that it appeals to all ages, and perhaps defies a single categorization.
Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: KatieHal on August 19, 2010, 08:24:26 AM
LOL, yeah, high fantasy is the phrase I was looking for. Adult fantasy would be something else entirely! Haha, and also not a source of inspiration for this game.  ;]
Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: wilco64256 on August 19, 2010, 08:26:15 AM
LOL, yeah, high fantasy is the phrase I was looking for. Adult fantasy would be something else entirely! Haha, and also not a source of inspiration for this game.  ;]

Yes if you said our game was based on adult fantasy you'd probably chase away most of our current fans and attract and entirely different crowd altogether.  High fantasy = yes.  Adult fantasy = no.
Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Baggins on August 19, 2010, 08:41:05 AM
Quote
LOL, yeah, high fantasy is the phrase I was looking for. Adult fantasy would be something else entirely! Haha, and also not a source of inspiration for this game.  
Probably one of those cases where teminology has changed over the years. Not all things that were 'once' classifed as 'adult fantasy' are fantasy porn (the "ADULT" fantasy :p)...
Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: KatieHal on August 19, 2010, 08:44:07 AM
Yeah...I was thinking 'fantasy but for adults, not teens' not really 'adult fantasy'.

But annnnnyways.
Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on August 19, 2010, 09:19:22 AM
I have many friends into adult fantasy, but they say its because they are married and that I will one day understand.
But definitely not for TSL.
Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Delling on August 19, 2010, 09:57:05 AM
I have many friends into adult fantasy, but they say its because they are married and that I will one day understand.

::) ::) 是吗? ...silly people...
Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Big C from Cauney island on August 19, 2010, 11:24:35 AM
I agree. But its their lives not mine, no matter how morally conflicted I am with their belief systems.  This would require a whole new thread, possibly website.  But alas, this is not the forum to describe such things.  I say TSL is a "Mature adventure". 
Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Baggins on August 19, 2010, 01:20:04 PM
"mature"?  :suffer: "I do not think it means what you think it means."

Or rather could have several meanings.

Also do not google "mature fantasy", you won't like the results.

"mature adventure", will just get you rated R stuff, like oh Phantasmagoria or God of War.
Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Flubly on August 19, 2010, 04:37:33 PM
There's already a Harry Potter, and there's already a Kingdom Hearts. Don't try to relate two stories together that are separate.

I disagree.  The patterns that are often categorized and compared come from the fact that storytelling's source is from the society that informs the writer.  Creativity is innovation on existing material, re-arranging data to convey fresh ideas.  Putting aside the ironic example of Kingdom Hearts, Harry Potter's content is not an element that cannot be broken down.  If its parts are not traceable then they aren't human since we are, in most ways, products of our societies.  Feral children have taught us as much.
Title: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 19, 2010, 06:03:07 PM
"mature"?  :suffer: "I do not think it means what you think it means."

Or rather could have several meanings.

Also do not google "mature fantasy", you won't like the results.

"mature adventure", will just get you rated R stuff, like oh Phantasmagoria or God of War.

Yeah. To me, teen fantasy is Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Kingdom Hearts, The Labyrinth. A generally new sub-genre, which I prefer to call "Tween" fantasy would be like for example Twilight or those gushy teen romance novels girls I know read. I differentiate them because I'd never put Twilight and LotR on the same level in any sense.

There's all different types of Fantasy. One sub-genre I LOVE is Dark Fantasy, which includes Conan the Cimmerian (the books, not the movie), Gotrek & Felix, HP Lovecraft, Edgar Allan Poe, etc. Stuff that isn't ''adult'' as in X rated but makes for a generally much more sinister read than say Lord of the Rings. Like the Gotrek & Felix series for example is very action oriented, lots of hacking and slashing, but beyond that, the tone is very dark, very bleak. At one point the duo, whom the series is named after, fight a group of Chaos cultists who capture and sacrifice babies; At another point, they're down under the sewers of a city fighting a species of ''rat-men" (basically humanoid rat like creatures) called Skaven.
Not to harp on this series, but it really is awesome. This is what a Skaven in the Warhammer Fantasy Universe (which is what Gotrek & Felix is set in) looks like:
(http://lucas.hardi.org/images/skaven1.jpg)
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Baggins on August 19, 2010, 06:23:28 PM
Lord of the Rings never was "teen fantasy". It is what they call "high fantasy".

Quote
From letter 189:

“I find that many children become interested, even engrossed, in /The Lord of the Rings/, from about 10 onwards. I think it rather a pity, really. It was not written for them. But then I am a very ‘unvoracious’ reader, and since I can seldom bring myself to read a work twice I think of the many things that I read – too soon! Nothing, not even a (possible) deeper appreciation, for me replaces the bloom on a book, the freshness of the unread. Still what we read and when goes, like the people we meet, by ‘fate.’”


From letter 215:

“But the desire to address children, as such, had nothing to do with the story as such in itself or the urge to write it. But it had some unfortunate effects on the mode of expression and narrative method, which if I had not been rushed, I should have corrected. Intelligent children of good taste (of which there seem quite a number) have always, I am glad to say, singled out the points in manner where the address is to children as blemishes.
I had given a great deal more thought to the matter before beginning the composition of /The Lord of the Rings/; and that work was not specially addressed to children or to any other class of people. But to any one who enjoyed a long exciting story, of the sort that I myself naturally enjoy. ....
I am not specially interested in children, and certainly not in writing for them: i.e. in addressing directly and expressly those who cannot understand adult language.
I write things that might be classified as fairy-stories not because I wish to address children (who qua children I do not believe to be specially interested in this kind of fiction) but because I wish to write this kind of story and no other.”
“Do you limit your enquiry, as may be supposed, to (North) European children? Then in what ages between the cradle and the end of legal infancy? To what grades of intelligence? Or literary talent and perceptiveness? Some intelligent children may have little of this. Children’s tastes and talents differ as widely as those of adults, as soon as they are old enough to be differentiated clearly, and therefore to be the target of any thing that can bear the name of literature. It would be useless to offer to many children of 14 or even of 12 the trash that is good enough for many respectable adults of twice or three times the age, but less gifts natural.”

From letter 234, about “The Lord of the Rings”:

“It was not written ‘for children’, or for any kind of person in particular, but for itself. (If any parts or elements in it appear ‘childish’, it is because I am childish, and like that kind of thing myself now.) I believe children do read it or listen to it eagerly, even quite young ones, and I am very pleased to hear it, though they must fail to understand most of it, and it is in any case stuffed with words that they are unlikely to understand – if by that one means ‘recognize as something already known’.

Conan is actually in the genre of of "low fantasy".
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 19, 2010, 07:17:23 PM
Lord of the Rings never was "teen fantasy". It is what they call "high fantasy".

Quote
From letter 189:

“I find that many children become interested, even engrossed, in /The Lord of the Rings/, from about 10 onwards. I think it rather a pity, really. It was not written for them. But then I am a very ‘unvoracious’ reader, and since I can seldom bring myself to read a work twice I think of the many things that I read – too soon! Nothing, not even a (possible) deeper appreciation, for me replaces the bloom on a book, the freshness of the unread. Still what we read and when goes, like the people we meet, by ‘fate.’”


From letter 215:

“But the desire to address children, as such, had nothing to do with the story as such in itself or the urge to write it. But it had some unfortunate effects on the mode of expression and narrative method, which if I had not been rushed, I should have corrected. Intelligent children of good taste (of which there seem quite a number) have always, I am glad to say, singled out the points in manner where the address is to children as blemishes.
I had given a great deal more thought to the matter before beginning the composition of /The Lord of the Rings/; and that work was not specially addressed to children or to any other class of people. But to any one who enjoyed a long exciting story, of the sort that I myself naturally enjoy. ....
I am not specially interested in children, and certainly not in writing for them: i.e. in addressing directly and expressly those who cannot understand adult language.
I write things that might be classified as fairy-stories not because I wish to address children (who qua children I do not believe to be specially interested in this kind of fiction) but because I wish to write this kind of story and no other.”
“Do you limit your enquiry, as may be supposed, to (North) European children? Then in what ages between the cradle and the end of legal infancy? To what grades of intelligence? Or literary talent and perceptiveness? Some intelligent children may have little of this. Children’s tastes and talents differ as widely as those of adults, as soon as they are old enough to be differentiated clearly, and therefore to be the target of any thing that can bear the name of literature. It would be useless to offer to many children of 14 or even of 12 the trash that is good enough for many respectable adults of twice or three times the age, but less gifts natural.”

From letter 234, about “The Lord of the Rings”:

“It was not written ‘for children’, or for any kind of person in particular, but for itself. (If any parts or elements in it appear ‘childish’, it is because I am childish, and like that kind of thing myself now.) I believe children do read it or listen to it eagerly, even quite young ones, and I am very pleased to hear it, though they must fail to understand most of it, and it is in any case stuffed with words that they are unlikely to understand – if by that one means ‘recognize as something already known’.

Conan is actually in the genre of of "low fantasy".

I'm speaking in terms of tone. Like Twilight is something that even nine or ten year olds can read and enjoy (I've witnessed this with my nieces)-It's not very dark, or mature; It's very ''Tween.'' The Hobbit, in terms of tone could even fall into this category but would be slightly darker, whereas the Lord of the Rings is more fit for teenagers in terms of tone--I don't think a young child could grasp it the way young girls seem to love Twilight.
To continue with the tonal comparison, I'd say Conan is a great deal darker and more mature than LotR.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: wilco64256 on August 19, 2010, 08:31:03 PM
See I admit to reading about 70 pages of Twilight and just not being able to stand it at all and never going back.  Which is funny because I couldn't put "The Host" down and ended up reading the entire book in one day.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Flubly on August 19, 2010, 09:18:19 PM
Isn't there a twilight book where an infant is bitten out of her mother or something like that?  That sounds dark to me but it doesn't give the books any more legitimacy.  A dark tone is something you use well or badly, I wouldn't even say it helps your chances of writing a mature story.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: KatieHal on August 19, 2010, 09:54:18 PM
Flubly: yes, the horror of the birthing scene in Breaking Dawn is hands down the most graphic thing in the entire series. And yet even something like that has, essentially, absolutely no consequences to it. The problem with Twilight, IMO, is exactly that: there are no consequences, and no one ever actually has to make any sacrifices. Nothing ever changes, not really, and the "love story" is presented without ever being built up. They're in love simply because they are in love, nothing deeper than that.

GAH. I could go on and on about what I hate about Twilight. And I freely admit I read them like the popcorn novels they are until the 4th book. I finished that one and went, wait...WTF just happened?? Also, vampires do not sparkle!!

Similarly, I read through The Host rather quickly and I liked the ideas in it, but the ending was terrible, a total cop-out where again no one ever really had to sacrifice anything.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: B'rrr on August 19, 2010, 10:04:37 PM
Lord of the Rings is "teen fantasy?  ???

Is teen fantasy an actual used term in literature? a real subgenre. it makes no sense really.  

I can understand fantasy books for little childeren, easy to read, low descriptions regarding violance and sexuality, etc. but that is childeren books vs normal books and has nothing to do with beeing fantasy or not.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: KatieHal on August 19, 2010, 10:05:37 PM
It's a subgenre, I'd say, but it's not something you're likely to find marked as a section in a bookstore.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 20, 2010, 12:56:50 AM
Exactly, and I think the words ''teen fantasy'' can cover a broad spectrum of the fantasy genre in general. But there has to be some way to differentiate say Twilight from Lord of the Rings, or Le Morte D'Arthur in terms of an official genre.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Baggins on August 20, 2010, 01:52:23 AM
Quote
The Hobbit, in terms of tone could even fall into this category but would be slightly darker,
In “Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien”, letter 163, concerning “The Hobbit”:

Quote
“It was unhappily really meant, as far as I was conscious, as a ‘children's story’, and as I had not learned sense then, and my children were not quite old enough to correct me, it has some of the sillinesses of manner caught unthinkingly from the kind of stuff I had had served to me, as Chaucer may catch a minstrel tag. I deeply regret them. So do intelligent children.”

“As I had expressed the view that the connexion in the modern mind between children and “fairy stories” is false and accidental, and spoils the stories in themselves and for children, I wanted to try and write one that was not addressed to children at all (as such); also I wanted a large canvas.”
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 20, 2010, 02:37:40 AM
In “Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien”, letter 163, concerning “The Hobbit”:

Quote
“It was unhappily really meant, as far as I was conscious, as a ‘children's story’, and as I had not learned sense then, and my children were not quite old enough to correct me, it has some of the sillinesses of manner caught unthinkingly from the kind of stuff I had had served to me, as Chaucer may catch a minstrel tag. I deeply regret them. So do intelligent children.”

“As I had expressed the view that the connexion in the modern mind between children and “fairy stories” is false and accidental, and spoils the stories in themselves and for children, I wanted to try and write one that was not addressed to children at all (as such); also I wanted a large canvas.”

What's your point? He's addressing the Hobbit, for one. I've mainly addressed the Lord of the Rings. And even so, the Hobbit is a lot lighter reading than the Lord of the Rings, whether Tolkien intended it to be or not. The Hobbit isn't a ''children's'' story, like Stellaluna, but it isn't as deep, symbolic, well crafted or as (and I know Tolkien didn't feel the LotR was really allegorical) allegorical as the Lord of the Rings is.
Secondly, I don't think teens are quite ''children.'' Maybe young teens (13-15 maybe) but I don't think you can call anyone over 16 a child.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Baggins on August 20, 2010, 02:46:21 AM
You brought up the Hobbit, previously. It also shows the contrast to his thoughts on the LOTR.

As Tolkien stated, he didn't write LOTRO books for young people, but adult tastes. Mainly he wrote them for himself, what he as an adult enjoyed. But anyone who had more 'adult' perspective and sensibilities could enjoy them. Of course he admitted not everyone would necessarily agree with his perspective, and some accused them of being more juvenile than other literature, but he admitted that was just a product of his own personality, and what he himself liked to read.

As for age and stuff... its all legally it depends on the country, and culture... Legally in the US for example someone is a "child" until around age 18 as far as the law is concerned. Teen is a subcategory of children. We won't get into how the government treats "drinking age" as well.

Places in europe I think set it at 16.

Back in the past some cultures set "adult" at 12 or such.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 20, 2010, 02:51:28 AM
You brought up the Hobbit, previously. It also shows the contrast to his thoughts on the LOTR.

Well I agree with him--It's not a children's story, and yes adults can enjoy it, but I still feel that the Lord of the Rings is something a bit more mature in tone, writing and heart--And Tolkien suggested that the LotR was a sort of middle ground between the Hobbit and the Silmarillion (His publishers wanted more ''Hobbit stories'', he wanted to write his masterwork the Silmarillion, which was rejected more than once by his publishers). And speaking of the Silmarillion-- That work is beyond both of the Hobbit and the LotR and reads much like the Bible than a fantasy story, even though it is still technically in the fantasy genre.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Baggins on August 20, 2010, 03:05:11 AM
He never actually finished the Silmarillion. What's published in the book form is more written in the style of "annals", just an outline of the main events. Rather than meant to be prose novels.

His original intent was to basically expand each of the individual stories into larger epic stories. Basically of Children of Hurin in length or longer  (the book kinda represents one of these "expanded" stories of the Silmarillion). He had actually nearly completed a few of the stories such as Fall of Gondolin, but those represent extremely early drafts. Do not fit in well with his later version of the world and stories.

Rumor has it though that between his early versions of Fall of Gondolin and his later rewrite chapters (most of which can be seen in the HoME series), that a complete novel could be put together. Infact one author did the editing, and released a very limited print run of something like 1000 copies that did that.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 20, 2010, 03:25:04 AM
He never actually finished the Silmarillion. What's published in the book form is more written in the style of "annals", just an outline of the main events. Rather than meant to be prose novels.

His original intent was to basically expand each of the individual stories into larger epic stories. Basically of Children of Hurin in length or longer  (the book kinda represents one of these "expanded" stories of the Silmarillion). He had actually nearly completed a few of the stories such as Fall of Gondolin, but those represent extremely early drafts. Do not fit in well with his later version of the world and stories.

Rumor has it though that between his early versions of Fall of Gondolin and his later rewrite chapters (most of which can be seen in the HoME series), that a complete novel could be put together. Infact one author did the editing, and released a very limited print run of something like 1000 copies that did that.

I've heard he did want to submit a version of the tales of the Silmarillion WITH the Lord of Rings (so people could understand the ancient background mentioned)--as one release--in the late '40s, but the whole set was considered two bulky and also there was a paper shortage due to the war, which is why the Lord of the Rings ended up becoming a "Trilogy."--He never intended it to be three books. He also submitted versions of the Silmarillion during the late 30s but it was considered too ''clunky'' by publishers.
As you said, he never quite ''finished'' it--But I believe he wrote he didn't think he would ever definitely finish them. They were always, from 1917 through 1973 always in some state of evolution or change.

There's actually two other ''full'' stories besides the Children of Hurin. Gondolin as you mentioned and also: The Lay of Lethian - the tragic tale of Beren & Luthien. Apparently those two other works are in more or less a ''complete'' state, and could be published as such--Who knows.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Baggins on August 20, 2010, 03:50:36 AM
Quote
I've heard he did want to submit a version of the tales of the Silmarillion WITH the Lord of Rings (so people could understand the ancient background mentioned)--as one release--in the late '40s, but the whole set was considered two bulky and also there was a paper shortage due to the war, which is why the Lord of the Rings ended up becoming a "Trilogy."--He never intended it to be three books. He also submitted versions of the Silmarillion during the late 30s but it was considered too ''clunky'' by publishers.
As you said, he never quite ''finished'' it--But I believe he wrote he didn't think he would ever definitely finish them. They were always, from 1917 through 1973 always in some state of evolution or change.

It didn't help that he would start writing them, then scratch out what he wrote, and start writing them again scrom scratch. According to HoME there are quite a few different versions in varying degrees of "completeness". HoMe has portions of each of these versions including the vary early, "Book of Lost Tales" versions. Chris Tolkien basically ended up taking what he could from each version, that fit the best, and used those to create most of the material in the released Silmarillion. He and another author "filled in the gaps".

He did get some of Silmarillion material in with the Appendix. But his appendix was to be even longer. I think some of the extended Appendix material appears in People of Middle Earth in the HoMe series.

BTW, the Lost Tales is probably contains the most complete version of each of the stories, in a mostly novelized form. Its unfortunately incompatible with later books due to changes in made in Hobbit, and  LOTR to his universe (for example complete rewrite of the Dwarves personality, they used to be evil), and some of his later rewrites. Those later rewrites however only took the stories a few chapters, or half way at the most.

Quote
There's actually two other ''full'' stories besides the Children of Hurin.

There are actually three-four as I remember. One is done in an epic poem style. There is also an epilogue of sorts which as I recall, following Hurin after the death of his children. These various versions appear in Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and HoMe Series.  Most of this material was pulled together to create the released Children of Hurin, plus additional material that Chris says he discovered.

Quote
Gondolin as you mentioned and also: The Lay of Lethian - the tragic tale of Beren & Luthien. Apparently those two other works are in more or less a ''complete'' state, and could be published as such--Who knows.
Well most of the version of The Lay of Lethian is actually in the HoMe series. Gondolin's material is split amongst several sources. Including early Lost Tales version, a version in Silmarillion, a version in Unfinished Tales, and maybe a couple of others. There are some major conflicting material however, as Tolkien revised certain events several tims, and would take some editorial tweaking to get merge them into a coherrent story (which is what one author did with the limited run, "Tale of Gondolin").
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 20, 2010, 03:53:33 AM
Quote
I've heard he did want to submit a version of the tales of the Silmarillion WITH the Lord of Rings (so people could understand the ancient background mentioned)--as one release--in the late '40s, but the whole set was considered two bulky and also there was a paper shortage due to the war, which is why the Lord of the Rings ended up becoming a "Trilogy."--He never intended it to be three books. He also submitted versions of the Silmarillion during the late 30s but it was considered too ''clunky'' by publishers.
As you said, he never quite ''finished'' it--But I believe he wrote he didn't think he would ever definitely finish them. They were always, from 1917 through 1973 always in some state of evolution or change.

It didn't help that he would start writing them, then scratch out what he wrote, and start writing them again scrom scratch. According to HoME there are quite a few different versions in varying degrees of "completeness". HoMe has portions of each of these versions including the vary early, "Book of Lost Tales" versions. Chris Tolkien basically ended up taking what he could from each version, that fit the best, and used those to create most of the material in the released Silmarillion. He and another author "filled in the gaps".

Quote
There's actually two other ''full'' stories besides the Children of Hurin.

There are actually three-four as I remember. One is done in an epic poem style. There is also an epilogue of sorts which as I recall, following Hurin after the death of his children. These various versions appear in Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and HoMe Series.  Most of this material was pulled together to create the released Children of Hurin, plus additional material that Chris says he discovered.

Quote
Gondolin as you mentioned and also: The Lay of Lethian - the tragic tale of Beren & Luthien. Apparently those two other works are in more or less a ''complete'' state, and could be published as such--Who knows.
Well most of the version of The Lay of Lethian is actually in the HoMe series. Gondolin's material is split amongst several sources. Including early Lost Tales version, a version in Silmarillion, a version in Unfinished Tales, and maybe a couple of others. There are some major conflicting material however, as Tolkien revised certain events several tims, and would take some editorial tweaking to get merge them into a coherrent story (which is what one author did with the limited run, "Tale of Gondolin").

A question: You seem to be quite knowledgable in this area, I was wondering if it's known what the last written parts of the Silmarillion were? I mean for example the earliest was written around 1917, but did he do any edits that we know of in the early 70s--the last few years before his death? Or what his last writings in general were?

Also, what did you think of his short aborted Lord of the Rings sequel, the "New Shadow"?
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Baggins on August 20, 2010, 03:58:29 AM
Hmm, I could try to check up in my copies of the HoMe for you later. But I don't have access to them at the moment. Give me about a month. Chris definitely breaks it down in that series.

As for the New Shadow? I enjoyed reading it. Wished he had actually taken the time to finish it :p... I personally wouldn't have a problem if Chris commissioned a writer to complete it.

Contrary to Chris perspective, his father actually wanted people to fill in his world with more stories, and wanted a kind of "official" Expanded Universe if you will. As far as I know only one author had ever gotten her own unofficial "fan fiction" actually published, in tolkien society magazines. Apparently those are seen as collector's items. Don't know if they were written before or after Tolkien died though. As recall they were short vignettes about Arwen's life before events of LOTR. Of course Lord of the Rings Online, Battles for Middle Earth, Third Age are essentially works of 'semi-official' fan fiction. Its not authorized by the Tolkien Estastes, but by Tolkien Enterprises, the Saul Zaents company which holds publishing/movie/spinoff rights to the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Tolkien Estates and Chris holds the rights to all the rest of Tolkien's material, and does not allow anyone the right to use that material.

Parts of the published Silmarillion are a bit of an "expanded universe" type stories, something Chris regrets doing, especially since he learned some of his invented material, contradicted some of the later material he discovered. The stand alone Children of Hurin for example has details from Tolkien himself, that are much different than the creations made for the published Silmarillion. The order of certain events are different for example.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: TheReturnofDMD on August 20, 2010, 04:47:24 AM
Hmm, I could try to check up in my copies of the HoMe for you later. But I don't have access to them at the moment. Give me about a month. Chris definitely breaks it down in that series.

As for the New Shadow? I enjoyed reading it. Wished he had actually taken the time to finish it :p... I personally wouldn't have a problem if Chris commissioned a writer to complete it.

Contrary to Chris perspective, his father actually wanted people to fill in his world with more stories, and wanted a kind of "official" Expanded Universe if you will. As far as I know only one author had ever gotten her own unofficial "fan fiction" actually published, in tolkien society magazines. Apparently those are seen as collector's items. Don't know if they were written before or after Tolkien died though. As recall they were short vignettes about Arwen's life before events of LOTR. Of course Lord of the Rings Online, Battles for Middle Earth, Third Age are essentially works of 'semi-official' fan fiction. Its not authorized by the Tolkien Estastes, but by Tolkien Enterprises, the Saul Zaents company which holds publishing/movie/spinoff rights to the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Tolkien Estates and Chris holds the rights to all the rest of Tolkien's material, and does not allow anyone the right to use that material.

Parts of the published Silmarillion are a bit of an "expanded universe" type stories, something Chris regrets doing, especially since he learned some of his invented material, contradicted some of the later material he discovered. The stand alone Children of Hurin for example has details from Tolkien himself, that are much different than the creations made for the published Silmarillion. The order of certain events are different for example.

It's not that he didn't take the time to finish it...He just didn't like it. He felt he could've made a ''cheap thriller'' about the events of the Fourth Age with that story but that the story he was crafting became ''too sinister and depressing'' and was ''not worth doing.'' I too wish he had completed it, the more Tolkien the better.

As for a Tolkien EU--I suppose it could be cool though there are very few men as talented as Tolkien was. It's not like with Star Wars where a lot of other people helped George Lucas create what Star Wars was even originally (for example other writers writing the actual scripts of Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi with Lucas just writing the story). Middle Earth was a very personal thing for Tolkien, as you said, Lord of the Rings for example as much for himself as it was for his audience.

An EU I guess would be alright but I truly doubt it could ever match Tolkien. That world was his world--He literally created an utterly expansive and entire world--Few could match up.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Baggins on August 20, 2010, 06:03:19 AM
That's true the only ones that could come close is Christopher himself (and the other author that helped with Silmarillion). But Chris would never do it.

But even still Tolkien stated he wanted people to expand his world, he never wanted to keep it to himself. Not in the way Chris has locked it down.

I should bring up the quote at some point, but I'm too busy to look through Letters at the moment.

Tolkien's perspective was probably something closer to how Lovecraft did it, allowing other authors to add to his world.

All things considered the writers for Lord of the Rings Online, come very close to Tolkien's style as well. It's uncanny. I recommend trying out the epic quests line. It also stays pretty true to the books (I think they even added som silmarillion references stealth-like). In a few months the game goes free to play, so you'll be able to try it out for yourself.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: KatieHal on August 20, 2010, 06:09:18 AM
LOL, now I'm starting to think we need to break off a chunk of this thread into one about Tolkein... :)
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: B'rrr on August 20, 2010, 06:14:47 AM
splitting a thread of two pages? sillyness, just edit the title!  ;)
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: KatieHal on August 20, 2010, 06:26:08 AM
Haha, but I don't mind talking actual teen fantasy, either :)

Speaking of which, most books that would be classified as such would probably end up in the "Young Adult" section of a bookstore or library. I've seen plenty of the like there before myself (and I enjoy YA myself sometimes as well). And/or in the Science Fiction & Fantasy section...but I imagine it depends on what the real focus of the story is and what it's being marketed as. For example, though I haven't read them, I would guess that The Vampire Diaries are in YA as opposed to SF&F.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Baggins on August 20, 2010, 06:40:56 AM
In my library back home (come to think of it bookstores as well), it would be in YA Fantasy.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: KatieHal on August 20, 2010, 07:39:37 AM
If a bookstore actually has a section marked as such. I don't think I've ever seen one that specific, personally.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: B'rrr on August 20, 2010, 07:53:08 AM
what is the difference really between young adult books and ehm.. old adult books?  :-\
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: KatieHal on August 20, 2010, 08:05:49 AM
Lighter themes (not to say they have serious ones, just that they tend to be treated with...well, kid gloves, you could say),  younger characters, shorter book length... I'm sure there's a technical description somewhere online, let's see....

From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young-adult_fiction):

Quote
Young-adult fiction, whether in the form of novels or short stories, has distinct attributes that distinguish it from the other age categories of fiction: Adult fiction, Middle Grade Fiction, and Children's Fiction. The vast majority of YA stories portray an adolescent as the protagonist, rather than an adult or a child. The subject matter and story lines are typically consistent with the age and experience of the main character, but beyond that YA stories span the entire spectrum of fiction genres. The settings of YA stories are limited only by the imagination and skill of the author. Themes in YA stories often focus on the challenges of youth, so much so that the entire age category is sometimes referred to as problem novels or coming of age novels.[4] Writing styles of YA stories range widely, from the richness of literary style to the clarity and speed of the unobtrusive and even free verse. Despite its unique characteristics, YA shares the fundamental elements of fiction with other stories: character, plot, setting, theme, and style.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: Baggins on August 20, 2010, 08:28:46 AM
Quote
If a bookstore actually has a section marked as such. I don't think I've ever seen one that specific, personally.
Well in my experience, in larger books stores, it was more of a subsection within the YA section. All the YA fantasy titles in a section of the shelf together.

Coincidently I'd find copies of the Hobbit in both the YA section with the fantasy titles, as well as in the regular 'adult fiction' fantasy section.

Surprisingly the YA cover for hobbit was usually a bit more whimsical, where the covers in the older 'adult' section was more conservative.

Quote
other age categories of fiction: Adult fiction,
I'm pretty sure they aren't talking "porn" with this terminology,  :suffer:.
Title: Re: What is teen fantasy anyway?
Post by: brycechard on August 27, 2021, 03:47:51 PM
An interesting question. A teenage fantasy is something unusual. teenagers can come up with both something absurd and something brilliant. It is a pity that over time, either we lose that old ability to fantasize, or reality closes the fantasy so much that we already forget to fantasize. Аnyway, adults fantasize worse. However, there are many exceptions. For example, the author of many books Tolkien. A genius in his field. He was even able to come up with his own talion (https://www.thetolkienforum.com/wiki/Talion) system. I didn't notice this at all when I was driving. However, the attentive guys from my favorite forum wrote about this.