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The Royal Archives => TSL General Archives => Topic started by: The Hero on September 27, 2010, 11:27:24 AM

Title: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: The Hero on September 27, 2010, 11:27:24 AM
I am at the very end of KQ7 but no matter how many times i leave and come back the dog wont quit so i cant get the crystal from the lamp ><
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings wuest 7
Post by: MangoMercury on September 27, 2010, 11:34:52 AM
Try walking all the way out of the gate to the left and walking back there again.  It won't just reset if you go to the front of the house.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings wuest 7
Post by: The Hero on September 27, 2010, 01:15:48 PM
still not working\
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings wuest 7
Post by: MangoMercury on September 27, 2010, 01:23:41 PM
Might take a few goes.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings wuest 7
Post by: Enchantermon on September 27, 2010, 01:29:55 PM
It won't just reset if you go to the front of the house.
Actually, it should.
Hero, have you actually talked to Ceres (or the Fates; I forget who tells you) to find out that you need to get the crystal? You won't be able to get into the house until you do.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings wuest 7
Post by: MangoMercury on September 27, 2010, 02:09:59 PM
I found that, even when I had spoken about the crystal (I believe it's the Fates), the dog wouldn't necessarily shut up, and that going all the way out of the garden would stop the dog barking.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: wilco64256 on September 27, 2010, 02:39:33 PM
Just fixing the main title :)
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Enchantermon on September 27, 2010, 02:44:25 PM
I found that, even when I had spoken about the crystal (I believe it's the Fates), the dog wouldn't necessarily shut up, and that going all the way out of the garden would stop the dog barking.
Usually it doesn't on the first try for me, but I never had to go all the way out of the garden to stop it; just changing screens to the front of the house and going back about three or four times (sometimes a few more) did it. Maybe it's an uncommon bug.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: MangoMercury on September 27, 2010, 02:51:05 PM
Thanks, Weldon!

And it could just be an uncommon bug.  I would have to back and forth between front and back of the house a huge amount of times, and it still wouldn't work, whereas if I went out the gate and back, it usually "reset" it.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: The Hero on September 27, 2010, 03:15:19 PM
I have talked to both
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Enchantermon on September 27, 2010, 06:52:22 PM
And you've already seen Maab frozen in your dreams?
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Haids1987 on September 27, 2010, 08:10:43 PM
Oh yeah, good suggestion.  Go talk to Doctor Cadaver, if you haven't already!
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Damar on October 02, 2010, 09:32:00 AM
Yeah, I never had good luck with that stupid dog.  He was always barking.  If you've done everything and been told to get the crystal, then just keep walking back and forth from the front and back of the house until he's quiet.  It took me forever too.  I hate those random things.  If he just won't stay quiet, maybe just leave the swamp, go back to Etheria, make sure you've picked up everything there, then go back down and see if that resets everything.

Unless you're referring to the fact that the dog keeps killing you once you're inside the house, in which case you'll need to find a way to get on his good side.  Keep in mind that doggies like treats.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: waltzdancing on October 02, 2010, 10:07:39 AM
I found that if I actually go in and get caught once, a redo would usually reset the game as well.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: drunkenmonkey on October 02, 2010, 01:41:30 PM
It might depend on the version of KQ7. The ambrosia puzzle might be in place, I'm thinking.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Deloria on October 03, 2010, 01:58:51 PM
Remember the old "edge of the screen trick" you used to employ when being chased by a wizard/witch/ogre/troll etc. in adventure games? :P According to the KQVII hintbook, you have to leave the screen and return until it stops barking. I know how irritating this is and it may sometimes take many, many tries. :P
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: darthkiwi on October 03, 2010, 03:10:49 PM
I walked back and forth endlessly and the dog never disappeared. After a while I left the screen (so I was at the front of the house) and then walked into the werewolf woods, and only *then* came back. It took a good few tries before the dog was gone. I have no idea if going into the woods each time helped, of course :-\
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: drunkenmonkey on October 03, 2010, 10:14:45 PM
Go to about 8:00 in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QcC_J4HiCI&NR=1
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Enchantermon on October 04, 2010, 12:13:33 PM
Wait...you're supposed to
feed ambrosia to the dog?
I never had to do that.....

By the way, you can start a YouTube clip at a certain point by adding timestamps to the URL. If you add "&t=5m35s" (without the quotes), for example, the clip will start at the 5 minute and 35 second mark.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: kyranthia on October 05, 2010, 09:41:16 PM
I always walked back to the front of the house, then back and forth a few times to get the dog to stop.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Haids1987 on October 07, 2010, 02:18:03 PM
Wait...you're supposed to
feed ambrosia to the dog?
I never had to do that.....
Seriously?  I didn't know that was optional!  How do you get through the house the second time?
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Enchantermon on October 07, 2010, 04:13:11 PM
With Valanice, I always just clicked the arrow to climb up out of the hole and it cut to the scene just before the image of the bone appears in the dog's thought bubble. Then Malicia grabbed the dog, they left, and I was in the clear.
It never made sense to me, but that's how I always got past that part.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Haids1987 on October 08, 2010, 07:03:01 PM
Huh.  Interesting.  I wonder if that's a glitch in your game?  'Cause it only shows the bone above his head
after you feed him the ambrosia
in my game. :yes:
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Enchantermon on October 08, 2010, 07:43:25 PM
Weird.
Oh, hey, wait. The video linked earlier mentions in the description that
the "ambrosia puzzle" was removed in later versions of the game. Since I doubt he's referring to the puzzle where you put the ambrosia in the Horn of Plenty, he must be referring to feeding it to the dog. I must have always played the later version.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Haids1987 on October 08, 2010, 08:06:11 PM
Why would they remove that puzzle? ??? It's the Sacred Food, I would think you'd need to do it in order for the sequence of the game to make sense. 

Weird.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Enchantermon on October 08, 2010, 08:21:56 PM
I don't know either, but that's the only reconciliation I can think of. *shrugs*
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Haids1987 on October 08, 2010, 08:28:51 PM
Eh, it's all good. :)
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: colin on October 08, 2010, 08:38:23 PM
Hmm I have played the original Kinqs Quest 7 which required a patch disk and I have the last release of the game as part of the collection and needed that item.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Enchantermon on October 08, 2010, 08:48:58 PM
That's...really weird, then. You have the 2006 Vivendi collection?
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: colin on October 08, 2010, 09:31:36 PM
Hi Jonathan

To clarirfy I do not have the 2006 Vivendi Collection. I have the 1997 Kinqs Quest Collection that contains extras
like the apple 2 games etc. This collection contains the last version of Kinqs Quest 7 which is the only version
that you can also use in Dos. I understand that the vivendi collection is just the same version.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Cat1 on October 08, 2010, 09:38:51 PM
Enchantermon that happens to me too, and I have the 1997 KQ collection!  Strange!
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: colin on October 08, 2010, 09:43:49 PM
Enchantermon that happens to me too, and I have the 1997 KQ collection!  Strange!

I don't understand this is odd.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Enchantermon on October 08, 2010, 10:21:19 PM
Okay, I think I understand. The Windows version of the game, which is the one I played the very first time I got my hands on KQ7, has this puzzle removed. The Windows version is also the version included in the 2006 King's Quest Collection.
When you install the patches from sierrahelp.com, the KQ7 patch instead installs the DOS version of KQ7, which includes this puzzle. I have all of the patches installed now, but have never played KQ7 with them installed (when I played through before TSL was released, I played the Windows version of KQ7 in XP through VMWare). Just now, I played through Chapter 5 of the DOS version and this puzzle was there.
Of course, I have no way of checking the Windows version now, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this puzzle was missing from it, and the YouTube video description seems to confirm that.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 12:53:01 AM
As I understand it, KQ7 was a fairly rushed production, so there were several updates after the initial release that included bug fixes as well as changes to the interface and even the removal of a couple puzzles.

These are the versions that I am aware of: 1.4, 1.51, 1.65c, and 2.00b. All of them require Windows with the exception of 2.00b, which is also compatible with DOS. (Or in today's practical terms, it can run within DOSBox without requiring Windows 3.1. Highly recommended for avoiding the firecracker bug.) You can find out which version any copy of the game is by opening the file labeled VERSION in the main folder with Notepad.

The Collections have version 1.4.

Version 2.00b had the most drastic changes:

- The game can run in either Windows or DOS (the DOS version has neat colored arrows for the mouse when pointing at an exit)
- The walking speed of your character can be altered by holding the +/- keys (the = key resets to default speed)
- An improved, though somewhat awkward, save game menu (or "bookmark" menu) is added, as opposed to the Quit button simply saving the game and taking you back to the main menu.
- In older versions, the mouse cursor jumps to the lower middle of the screen above the inventory window whenever it turns into a crown. This has been removed for the most part.
- The crystal dragon death (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfV_J_MktZU&fmt=22&t=5m53s) has been removed.
- The ambrosia-on-the-dog puzzle has been removed.* So if you haven't seen that puzzle, then you probably haven't seen the associated death sequences (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69MP0EpSM0U&fmt=22&t=5m28s) either.

*It actually depends on where you start the game. If you start at Chapter 1, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r36pswF9KDw&t=4m53s) will happen. If you start at Chapter 5, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QcC_J4HiCI&fmt=22&t=8m29s) will happen. Diamondfist1 informed me of this in the comment section of the first video, and I used it to my advantage in the second video. I started the playthrough from Chapter 1, but since I wanted to include that puzzle, I started a seperate game in Chapter 5, recorded the puzzle, then edited the recordings together to make it look like I never stopped playing (hence my "superpowers" in the video description).

Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever played an old version all the way through. Maybe the same puzzle disappears then too. That would mean the puzzle's existence would depend entirely on where you started the game and have nothing to do with which version you were playing. Interesting.

As for the original question about the dog barking, I believe he's always there until you talk to Ceres, unless you get really lucky with a glitch. He may still be there after you talk to Ceres, but he shouldn't take long to go away.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Lambonius on October 11, 2010, 01:31:08 AM
KQ7's chapter system was probably the worst bad game design decision in the history of the KQ series (which, as much as we all love it, was a series fraught with bad game design decisions.)  Worse than the dead ends in KQ5.  Worse than turning MOE into an 3D action game.  It was that bad.  All this talk just further proves it.  ;)  It was a game design decision that literally broke the game.  Epic fail. 

hehe.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Enchantermon on October 11, 2010, 08:18:31 AM
- The ambrosia-on-the-dog puzzle has been removed.* . . .

*It actually depends on where you start the game. If you start at Chapter 1, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r36pswF9KDw&t=4m53s) will happen.
That's it! That's what always happened for me. I guess I never saw the puzzle because I never started in the middle of the game before, except for when I formulated my above theory. Thanks for explaining. :)
KQ7's chapter system was probably the worst bad game design decision in the history of the KQ series . . .
I completely disagree. How did it break the game? No matter what chapter you start with, you can play through until the end. I can only think of one instance where something odd happens as a result (this being Attis warning you about going into the forest as you're walking away from it if you start at chapter 4 or 5). In fact, thinking about it, the idea was just ahead of its time, because it's very similar to episodic gaming, with the main difference being that the game was released all at once instead of in segments. I don't have a problem with it at all.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Lambonius on October 11, 2010, 11:50:39 AM
From a narrative standpoint, it makes no sense.  It should never be an option to play the ending of a game before you've played the rest of it.

Let me ask you this: What possible advantage does it have that simply including a functional save feature wouldn't also accomplish?

PS:  I was exaggerating a might, too.  ;)  But I do think it was a totally pointless decision that further serves to dumb down a game that already seems to be aimed squarely at children (despite some tough puzzles in parts.)
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Enchantermon on October 11, 2010, 12:01:54 PM
From a narrative standpoint, it makes no sense.  It should never be an option to play the ending of a game before you've played the rest of it.
Honestly, who's going to do that if they haven't already played the game? If they forget to save (which i bet happens more often than some of us care to admit), it gives you another starting point that doesn't force you to play more of the game over than you have to.
Let me ask you this: What possible advantage does it have that simply including a functional save feature wouldn't also accomplish?
It helps the game feel a little less ADD. KQ7 is unlike any other KQ game because you control two different characters, and not only that, but they don't interact with each other at all until the very end of the game (and even then, only in scripted cutscenes). Splitting the game into chapters presents you with sensible transitions between the two and makes the transition feel less awkward.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 12:13:24 PM
I'd say the broken save game menu was the worst part of the chapter feature, if you consider the two related (as chapters and bookmarks kinda are). Obviously it's your own choice whether you want to skip ahead, so if you don't, nothing is ruined. The chapters were probably included to create a natural time for switching characters, and that could still have been pulled off without letting the player choose which chapter to start with.

I'm glad to hear you were exaggerating, Lambo, because dead ends were by far the worst problem with the early games. Sure, KQ7 might come across as an oversimplified kids game, but still the main bright spot about the game to me is that it not only got rid of the dead ends, but for the most part, it also got rid of the nonsensical deaths present in the earlier games like the ones we were talking about in the other thread.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: crayauchtin on October 11, 2010, 12:15:20 PM
It helps the game feel a little less ADD. KQ7 is unlike any other KQ game because you control two different characters, and not only that, but they don't interact with each other at all until the very end of the game (and even then, only in scripted cutscenes). Splitting the game into chapters presents you with sensible transitions between the two and makes the transition feel less awkward.
Ding ding DING!!

That was the purpose of doing the chapter system -- they needed a way to transition. And I think the chapter system does a fantastic job of doing just that.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Enchantermon on October 11, 2010, 12:27:33 PM
I'd say the broken save game menu was the worst part of the chapter feature, if you consider the two related (as chapters and bookmarks kinda are).
In what way was it "broken"? It didn't feature individual save slots, that's true, but I would hardly consider that broken since there was no need for individual save slots. As you pointed out, there were no dead ends, and any time you died you had a Retry feature, so the saves were simply a way of holding your place in the game when you quit. There was no need for them to be expanded beyond what they were.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 12:42:18 PM
I'd say the broken save game menu was the worst part of the chapter feature, if you consider the two related (as chapters and bookmarks kinda are).
In what way was it "broken"? It didn't feature individual save slots, that's true, but I would hardly consider that broken since there was no need for individual save slots. As you pointed out, there were no dead ends, and any time you died you had a Retry feature, so the saves were simply a way of holding your place in the game when you quit. There was no need for them to be expanded beyond what they were.

I guess it's more of a personal thing, but making those death reel videos was a bigger pain than it had to be. It would have been much nicer if I could restore earlier and later points in the game at will. As it was, I had to manually copy/paste different saved games to and from different folders to pull it off.

Edit: For gamers just trying to get through the game, I guess the biggest disadvantage would be that you can't go back and repeat prior discussions with crucial information if you want to hear them again. Granted, you may not have had a saved game right before it anyway even if that was an option, but when I play, I create new saves constantly when I can for that reason.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Lambonius on October 11, 2010, 01:27:17 PM

That was the purpose of doing the chapter system -- they needed a way to transition. And I think the chapter system does a fantastic job of doing just that.

 ::)  Sigh...apparently I needed to be more specific.  Breaking the game into chapters in and of itself is not problematic.  But allowing the player to choose to start the game from any chapter they want makes absolutely no sense from a design standpoint.  That's what I was talking about.


I guess it's more of a personal thing, but making those death reel videos was a bigger pain than it had to be. It would have been much nicer if I could restore earlier and later points in the game at will. As it was, I had to manually copy/paste different saved games to and from different folders to pull it off.

Edit: For gamers just trying to get through the game, I guess the biggest disadvantage would be that you can't go back and repeat prior discussions with crucial information if you want to hear them again. Granted, you may not have had a saved game right before it anyway even if that was an option, but when I play, I create new saves constantly when I can for that reason.

Exactly.  You guys are vastly oversimplifying the purpose of saved games.  Simply holding one's place in the game is only one single function.  Allowing for a full fledged save system like the older games would have vastly improved replayability, since it would have been easy to go back and re-experience specific moments if you so desired.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: snabbott on October 11, 2010, 03:36:47 PM
I would agree that allowing you to start at any chapter is a poor compensation for not being able to keep multiple saved games. I tend to keep lots of saved games so I can jump in at just about any point and repeat a particular action (or death).
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: crayauchtin on October 11, 2010, 04:15:34 PM
Being a poor way of doing something is far from making it a terrible feature -- the lack of multiple saves has nothing to do with the chapter system. So how does the chapter system break the game?
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Lambonius on October 11, 2010, 04:43:11 PM
Being a poor way of doing something is far from making it a terrible feature -- the lack of multiple saves has nothing to do with the chapter system. So how does the chapter system break the game?

Actually, I think the lack of a save-game feature is EXACTLY the result of the chapter system.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I remember Roberta herself explaining it that way (more or less) in one of the making-of videos from back in the day.  And it doesn't REALLY break the game--I did say I was exaggerating, didn't I?  ;)
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: crayauchtin on October 11, 2010, 06:54:41 PM
Okay, you were exaggerating, but I still don't see the chapter system causing the lack of the save feature.

I mean, that may have been the "why" of them dropping the standard save system that but it's entirely possible to have both, y'know? It is inconvenient not to have the Saves, but I don't think we should be blaming the chapter system.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Lambonius on October 11, 2010, 07:10:36 PM
I mean, that may have been the "why" of them dropping the standard save system that but it's entirely possible to have both, y'know? It is inconvenient not to have the Saves, but I don't think we should be blaming the chapter system.

If they had both been incorporated, it would definitely be better, but I still think the "choose your starting point" system is just a pointless dumbing down of the game.  KQ7 actually had some decent puzzles, so the game itself isn't dumb--you still have to be pretty clever to figure it all the way out without a walkthrough--but this makes additions like the single cursor and the chapter select system even more insulting and needless.  The game would have been much better if it kept the chapters (which it could introduce and conclude like a storybook--which was the original goal anyway) but made it so that you had to start from the beginning of the game and save games like normal.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: crayauchtin on October 11, 2010, 08:15:55 PM
Oh, I absolutely agree. Ideally, KQ7 would have kept the hands/eye/mouth/etc that we're used to and the saving system we're used to but I still like the fact you could start anywhere. Perhaps it would have been better if you had to unlock chapters first, by reaching that point on your first playthrough.
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: Lambonius on October 11, 2010, 08:19:32 PM
Oh, I absolutely agree. Ideally, KQ7 would have kept the hands/eye/mouth/etc that we're used to and the saving system we're used to but I still like the fact you could start anywhere. Perhaps it would have been better if you had to unlock chapters first, by reaching that point on your first playthrough.

This would have been a good solution, and would have made a lot more sense.  It's very "console-ish" though, and probably not something that would have ever occurred to PC adventure game designers back in the day.  Oh well.  ;)
Title: Re: stupid dog Kings Quest 7
Post by: shadyparadox on October 11, 2010, 10:34:18 PM
I can proudly say that I completed KQ7 without any assistance from anywhere.

But unfortunately, I have to give some credit to the skip-around feature. I was completely stuck very early on in Chapter 3 until I jumped to Chapter 5, in which I put the moon back in the sky for reasons I had no idea about. Then on my return to the woods, I learned Valanice could jump across the rocks. Of course, I only realized this once I saw her heading south. I immediately loaded my other saved game and went from there.