Spelling/Grammar Errors

[maestro]

whatever else [you] found that you could point . . . out, this is the perfect time to do so.

Well, I wasn't going to do this, but, since you asked, I installed the patch and played the demo one more time, looking for grammatical errors.  So here is the report from the Grammar Nazi:

Introduction:

This may be nitpicking, but "the black cloak which enveloped him" should be "the black cloak that enveloped him."  Since this is a restrictive clause, I would use "that"; "which" is usually used in non-restrictive clauses.

Inside the Castle:

"Castle of Daventry":  I would say either "The Castle of Daventry" or "Castle Daventry."

"the room to":  The narrator says "the room of," and I think "of" sounds better than "to."

"finds it quite different than what he's used to":  This should be "different from" in American English.  I believe the British say "different to"; "than" is always wrong when used after "different."

"grateful of the breathtaking view of the sea" and "perfect incubator of some of the nicest dreams":  I'm not sure that these are wrong, but in both cases I would use "for" instead of "of."

"as if it was just built":  Since this is hypothetical, you must use the subjunctive mood "as if it were."

In the courtyard:

"some lying on their sides":  This is correct, but the narrator says "laying" instead of "lying."

"alright" should be "all right."

Outside the Castle:

"What is Decreed, Must Be":  There should be no comma.  A comma never stands in between the subject and its verb.

"arch" is pronounced "ark" by the narrator.

I am omitting some errors by Hassan because a sailor is not expected to speak grammatically.

"Isle of the Sacred":  Is this how the locals refer to the "Isle of the Sacred Mountain"?

With the Oracle:

"seek he who rules the Isle of the Mists":  "he" should be "him."

Odd tangent, I've always wondered why "alright" is wrong but "altogether," and "already" are right.

Personally, I think "no one" should be spelled "noöne"; after all, "someone," "anyone," and "everyone" are all spelled as one word.  However, no one spells it that way, so I comply with the standard.

On an unrelated note, I did notice some more 3-D effects while playing the demo that I hadn't noticed before.  The trees, especially the large tree, moving with the wind, and the ferry moving with the wind, are both excellent uses of 3-D.

[KatieHal]

Hi maestro,

Thanks for the feedback! Even Grammar-nazi ish as I am as well, when you're looking at a script this long, you're always bound to miss something. The more eyes that look at something the more slip-ups you'll catch. We'll try and make sure these get fixed!

[Baggins]

"seek he who rules the Isle of the Mists":  "he" should be "him."

Granted if its changed to "him";

"Seek him who rules the isle of the Mists"

Doesn't sound quite right either... Also it sounds more arcaic when sais "seek he who rules", almost victorian. Maybe its not modern english, as we don't speak that way now. But then again not all modern english should be around during the time of Daventry (granted we have seen various versions of english, dialects, and accents in the King's Quest games)...

[maestro]

"Seek him who rules the isle of the Mists" Doesn't sound quite right either.

That's because you're accustomed to hearing sentences that begin with "He who . . . ", so you think of "he who" as a unit.  So forget about the "who" for a minute.  Would you say "Seek he" or "Seek him"?  The add the "who" clause to the end.

[Cez]

"Seek him who rules the isle of the Mists" Doesn't sound quite right either.

That's because you're accustomed to hearing sentences that begin with "He who . . . ", so you think of "he who" as a unit.  So forget about the "who" for a minute.  Would you say "Seek he" or "Seek him"?  The add the "who" clause to the end.

again, this type of grammar is valid for written texts. People aren't books, so they don't have the time to check the grammar in their minds before speaking it even if they know the rules of grammar. There's a great division between writing for a narration and writing for a character, which is something english majors have a real problem with (including Katie!!!). I just can say that, as a screenwriter, being grammatically correct with your characters makes them sound like robots or computers, which they are obviously not (even if they are knowledgable, nobody's perfect and will commit these faults). The best example I could give you is someone saying "Howdy" vs "How are you". "Howdy" is not really accepted if you are going to write a narration, but in speech, there's not a lot of correct grammar (UNLESS you are a journalist, and even those make mistakes when speaking)

[Baggins]

Seek him who rules the isle of the Mists" Doesn't sound quite right either.

Cesar is right.

BTW, I would just have said something along the lines of, "Seek the ruler of the isle of the mists", or even "Seek the druid who rules the isle of the mists", because "Seek him who rules the isle of the Mists", doesn't sound as pleasent to me.

The truth of the matter I rarely ever hear, "he who", and I hear "him who" even less.

I also don't see "Seek he" or "Seek him" much either(I think I can think of one verse in Amos that uses the term "seek him"), but i've seen both versions used in poetry. Yes I agree "Seek Him" in those cases are grammatically correct.

You'll find "he who" in more archaic literature or in foreign literature, for example the saying "He who is like" is more direct translation than "him who is like" in the theological texts, and poetic literature.

Some examples;

...he who rules his spirit than he who takes a city.

Proverbs 16.32

It is he who rules over all the sources of this universe, from time to the soul of man.

-Svetasvatara Upanishad

he who rules over all two-footed and four-footed beings

-FOURTH ADHYÃ,YA, 13

He, Who rules over the atmosphere and the expanse,

-Du'a al Jawshan al Kabir, 56.

Some more modern saying using the style;

He who rules must fully humor as much as he commands.

- George Eliot (1819-1880).

[Matt Vassar]

I agree "Seek Him" in those cases are grammatically correct.

You'll find "he who" in more archaic literature

I'll confess that my knowledge of grammatical rules isn't as strong as either of yours. But I will say that I don't think that Maestro was claiming that the phrase "s/he who" will always be grammatically incorrect; Maestro was instead attempting to point out that the phrase "seek s/he who" is gramatically incorrect. Your examples of "s/he who" are fine, but none of them include "seek s/he who," which is an important distinction to make. (Incidentally, Baggins, if you wanted to include a very common example of the phrase "s/he who," you might have added "She who laughs last laughs best." As far as I know, this phrase is gramatically correct; on the other hand, if I were to say "Seek she who laughs best," it would then become grammatically incorrect, if I'm understanding correctly.)

That said, I think that César has already adequately pointed out why this whole conversation is irrelevant. In the everyday vernacular, we never have time to proofread our words as we're speaking them. Nobody will ever speak gramatically correct all of the time. Plain and simple. And forcing proper syntax and diction on the characters of KQ9 will make it seem as though they're less human and merely reading from a script, which will necessarily detract from the otherwise poignant messages they might convey as Graham seeks to save his family.

I think that this academic conversation so far has been fascinating, and certainly has taught me a thing or two. But, outside of the academy and in terms of what's best for the game, I agree with César that advocating strict grammatical standards (whether contemporary or archaic) for the characters of KQ9 will only succeed in making them lose their "humanity."

Minor edit: Remove redundancies

[Delling]

*can't resist*

"seek he who rules the Isle of the Mists":  "he" should be "him."

It's all a matter of case: the sentence in question requires the objective case or accusative case him as opposed to the nominative or subjective case he.

Oh, in narration, if the narrator is a character (even if they aren't defined  as such until later), it can be helpful to use lower levels of diction to get that idea across and to hint at who is speaking. You mean exposition, not narration (narration implies a speaker while exposition does not). Otherwise, I agree with Cesar completely.

[Yonkey]

Oh, in narration, if the narrator is a character (even if they aren't defined  as such until later), it can be helpful to use lower levels of diction to get that idea across and to hint at who is speaking. You mean exposition, not narration (narration implies a speaker while exposition does not). Otherwise, I agree with Cesar completely.

The person saying that line is the Oracle, not the Narrator.

[Delling]

Cesar was talking about the differences between narration and dialogue.   Narration can imply that someone's talking. Exposition does not imply that someone's talking. If a writer wants to emphasize a particular character as the narrator, he can use that character's personality or dialect to get that point across. Exposition is the generally used third person past tense form of the omniscient "narrator," but as no character is speaking, standard diction and appropriate grammar is required.

Again, I've changed paragraphs and topics in a post and you haven't followed.

[Yonkey]

Again, I've changed paragraphs and topics in a post and you haven't followed.

Probably because there's a rule against off-topic discussion.   And considering the majority of this topic was in reference to the "seek he/him", it was pretty easy to not follow your post.

[Cez]

yes, that's actually correct. Exposition is what I truly meant.

[JasonHimwell]

Ooh! Grammar thread. Larry Niven once said, "People speak in the first draft," and "Seek he" sounds about right to me for dialogue.

I actually registered chiefly to point out the that/which issue in the intro. So it does stick out, yes.

That said, the first line of the intro, "The birthday for Prince Alexander [...]," is also a bit non-idiomatic. While I'll admit that the meaning of "The birthday for" is easily taken to be "The birthday celebration for," the sentence works better with "The birthday OF Prince Alexander [...]"

And you thought this thread was pedantic already, huh?

Getting into even more subjective territory - because, after all, intro text should be PERFECT, or as close to it as possible - there's a sentence along the lines of "As if mirroring the people's sorrow, the rain began to fall." The subordinate clause blunts the impact of the sentence, I think. Given the context, "Rain began to fall" would be more effective on its own. Or even, "A storm began."

So... in order to find problems, I've got to nitpick stylistic issues. That is awesome. That means some proofreader is doing a great job.

[Note: It is inevitable that this post contain a spelling or grammar error. That is a law of the Internet.]

[Yonkey]

I believe this was mentioned before, but the intro text was added to the demo because the introduction video and sequence are not there.  So, chances are, those 4 screens will be removed in the final version.  As I recently said to the team: if a picture speaks 1000 words, a video is that times the frames per second.

However, I do agree with the line of text you pointed out sounding a bit odd.  Please report that as an Issue in the Technical Report forum so I can fix it in a future patch.

Getting into even more subjective territory - because, after all, intro text should be PERFECT, or as close to it as possible - there's a sentence along the lines of "As if mirroring the people's sorrow, the rain began to fall." The subordinate clause blunts the impact of the sentence, I think. Given the context, "Rain began to fall" would be more effective on its own. Or even, "A storm began."

That one I have to disagree with.  Firstly because there is no grammar mistake with it, and secondly because your change destroys some of the mental imagery as well as the metaphor associated with that phrase.  Factually, the storm hasn't begun yet either, and physically, you'll only experience the storm's wrath at the end of Chapter 1.  You were correct on one thing though, that you've now ventured into highly subjective territory.

[Matt Vassar]

if a picture speaks 1000 words, a video is that times the frames per second.

*laugh* A good point, albeit mathematically incorrect. Your above formula would calculate the amount of words per second. To get the total number of words, you'd have to multiply that total by the duration of the video (in seconds).

Returning to geekdom,
M

[Yonkey]

Good point, but since this is the grammar thread...

"speaks" is in the present tense, so the units are expressed as a rate of change of time.

[Matt Vassar]

*snaps fingers* Got me!