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Please Don't Kill Me! But...

Started by Damar, April 17, 2011, 01:12:25 PM

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GrahamRocks!

Please don't kill m, but... I still like Veggietales even to this day!

Haids1987

Veggie Tales are awesome. They were a little after my time, but I still like them. :yes:
STATUS:
-Drinking water
-Checking the forum. 

Perpetually. ;D
Erica Reed is Katie Hallahan.
Leader of the "I <3 Doon" Fanclub

snabbott

Me, too! And with a 3-year-old and a 5-month-old, it's a good thing I do! :P

Steve Abbott | Beta Tester | The Silver Lining

darthkiwi

Please don't kill me, but... I really don't want another Space Quest game. I played the remake of 1, as well as 4, 5 and some of 6, and they were punishing, included too many annoying minigames, and the humour was just not very funny even though it's billed as a comedy game. I enjoyed some of 4 because the premise was interesting, but it wasn't used as extensively as I'd have liked and the plot was disjointed, clliché and dumped onto you in long, inelegant chunks. I enjoyed 5 because it was a Star Trek parody and I like Star Trek, but everything that *wasn't* Star Trek wasn't very enjoyable... so I should have just played a Star Trek game. And Deloria and I played 6 together for around 2 hours, and were frustrated by the lack of any real goal (beyond "explore and, yeah, solve puzzles or something") and by the lack of any narrative movement. Without making any real progress, having just wandered around and pointlessly combined items with objects for no discernible reason, we just quit in irritation.

So I just don't see why another game should be made. To me, they are *bad games*!
Prince of the Aquitaine. Duke of York.

Knight errant and consort to Her Grace the Empress Deloria of the Holy Roman Empire, Queene of all Albion and Princess Palatine.

crayauchtin

Quote from: darthkiwi on June 01, 2012, 06:34:57 AM
Please don't kill me, but... I really don't want another Space Quest game. I played the remake of 1, as well as 4, 5 and some of 6, and they were punishing, included too many annoying minigames, and the humour was just not very funny even though it's billed as a comedy game. I enjoyed some of 4 because the premise was interesting, but it wasn't used as extensively as I'd have liked and the plot was disjointed, clliché and dumped onto you in long, inelegant chunks. I enjoyed 5 because it was a Star Trek parody and I like Star Trek, but everything that *wasn't* Star Trek wasn't very enjoyable... so I should have just played a Star Trek game. And Deloria and I played 6 together for around 2 hours, and were frustrated by the lack of any real goal (beyond "explore and, yeah, solve puzzles or something") and by the lack of any narrative movement. Without making any real progress, having just wandered around and pointlessly combined items with objects for no discernible reason, we just quit in irritation.

So I just don't see why another game should be made. To me, they are *bad games*!
OMG!
I thought I was the only one!

I like the humor, though, but.... okay, it's an adventure game, right? So why in Space Quest 1 was I stuck because I have bad luck at slots? GOOD adventure games should NEVER be unwinnable because of LUCK. I never played any of the rest of the series after that, I was infuriated.
"If your translation is correct, that was 'May a sleepy hippopotamus lie down on your house keys,' but you're not sure. Unfortunately, your fluency in griffin-speak is too low."

We're roleplaying in the King's Quest world: come join in the fun!

Delling

#265
*has this really long, well-thought-out reply on his office computer that he clearly didn't post*

Basically, Space Quest is the premier Sierra series that tried to do some genre-stretching and bring in elements of platforming and other kinds of games as minigames. Sometimes, that worked for me; sometimes, it didn't. It was hit and miss like that. But, the take home message of this realization is that if you like that sort of thing, you'll like Space Quest: if you don't like that sort of thing, you'll just be really frustrated at some point in each game.


EDIT:

This is what I had in the office:

Quote from: darthkiwi on June 01, 2012, 06:34:57 AM
And Deloria and I played 6 together for around 2 hours, and were frustrated by the lack of any real goal (beyond "explore and, yeah, solve puzzles or something") and by the lack of any narrative movement. Without making any real progress, having just wandered around and pointlessly combined items with objects for no discernible reason, we just quit in irritation.
This is the problem with SQ6. Plot does happen but to me it always felt really tacked on--which is hard to deliver narratively... a plot which is tacked on.

Quote from: darthkiwi on June 01, 2012, 06:34:57 AM
I enjoyed 5 because it was a Star Trek parody and I like Star Trek, but everything that *wasn't* Star Trek wasn't very enjoyable... so I should have just played a Star Trek game.

All of 5 is a Star Trek parody except IIRC a bit near the end and the bit that's Predator/Terminator. :P

Basically, Space Quest is the Sierra series that blends mini-games with adventure game story. They were always trying to do some genre-stretching. I would go as far as to say: if you don't want other flavor mixed with your adventure gaming, don't play Space Quest (because it will be just as you've described--very frustrating).

The real motivation for a new Space Quest game is to tie together the plots of 4, 5, and 6 so that the story comes full circle.

__
Though I think the only new point is that last one about tying together the plots of the last 3. :yes:
Noli me tangere! Nescio ubi fuisti!
Don't touch me! I don't know where you've been!

Marquess of Pembroke
Duke of Saxony in Her Majesty's Court
Knight of the Swan for Her Imperial Highness

...resistance was obviously useless against a family that could invent italics.

"Let the locative live."

http://my.ddo.com/referral/Delling87

darthkiwi

See, I kind of get that, but... well, let me see if I can remember the minigame/genre experimentation that I've seen in the SQ games.

I don't remember much from SQ1, apart from the slot machines which are, as cray pointed out, kind of annoying. (Although I do like the fact that you can save, play the slots, and then restore if you lose; it's like the ultimate acceptance of the fact that part of a Sierra game is playing with the save/restore features, in that they actually become part of the game. Which is kind of weird but I found it bizarrely amusing.)

I never played 2 or 3 so can't comment there.

With 4, I just remember the impossible burger-making game. While I found it kind of fun in a "Well at least this is different to puzzles" way, it was almost impossible to get to the goal, so you were forced to skip it. So, from that perspective, the best thing about it... was that it could be skipped. :S

Then soon after that minigame was a sequence where you had to float into the anti-gravity sports area and float around to foil the sequel police. The idea was good but the execution was just horrific: the controls were impossible to get right, it was unclear what you had to do, and if you faltered for a moment - or if you moved in a straight line for more than half a second - or if you did everything perfectly but the computer decided that it was going to make you fail anyway - then you died.

I didn't like that minigame much.

In 5 - well, 5 was a lot better for this kind of thing. The whole game was a kind of hybrid between an adventure game and a space trader game ala the Smugglers series. Overall I enjoyed 5 - but mostly because it *didn't* have any arbitrary minigames. Instead, the whole game model was a mix between two engaging game-types. But, as I said, a lot of that came from the fact it was a Star Trek parody, so a lot of those elements should be traced back to Star Trek rather than SQ.

And with 6... eh... I didn't get far enough. It was just an incredibly dull game, even without the minigames.

So my experience of the SQ genre experimentation is - SQ5 was generally a success, as a piece of game design/genre fusion even if it wasn't very creative from a setting/plot perspective. But what I liked about it was the fact that it melded two genres together, rather than taking the adventure genre and sticking frustrasting minigames on top of it. It's notable that the one minigame I wasn't really annoyed by in these games was the Battleships clone in SQ5, because that minigame was actually an arcade game in the fictional setting that you play against the proud/hubristic/so-full-of-himself-I'm-surprised-he-can-eat antagonist. So that fitted in with the way I played it: I *was* playing a minigame, but it was a point of honour, not a shoehorned bit of faux entertainment (like the SQ4 ones).

When you look at it like that... well, another Sierra series that performed genre melding was the QfG series. And that series did it well, I think. There was the occasional minigame but, while some of them were rather unfair, they were all derived from the fact that you're role-playing a particular character. And that comes across not just in the fact there are minigames, but in the fact that there are three characters/paths through the game, there's a flexible money system (the RPG "earn money > spend it on stuff > kill monsters > earn more money" system rather than the "exchange one silver coin for one fish" KQ system), and there's a combat system and a sneak system. I think the QfG games do a great job of blending two genres and experimenting with what people thought was possible in these already-semi-established genres.

Or you could take MoE. Roberta Williams said the combat system was partly inspired by Diablo; having played Diablo I can say there are lots of differences, but I think MoE does manage to blend the satisfaction of killing monsters, which is the core of Diablo, with the lore/plot/story of a KQ or QfG game, which is somewhat lacking in the Diablo games (since killing monsters is so satisfying that after a while you kind of don't care why you're doing it). MoE has a lot of problems, but for what it's worth I like it as a game and as an experiment. The Daventry level is particularly well crafted, I feel.

So compared to those two examples, I just don't feel SQ measures up. It experiments, but with no real understanding of how the player experiences the game. It often feels like the game designers put things in because they realised they *could*, without thinking about how the player would respond. (This is a complaint I have regarding Sierra games generally, but it's particularly marked here.) Whereas the QfG games and MoE have a consistent vision of what their game architecture looks like and extrapolate from that, it felt like the SQ games were either winging it or deriving the minigames and puzzles from the humour - and, as I've said, I just don't think it's very good humour.
Prince of the Aquitaine. Duke of York.

Knight errant and consort to Her Grace the Empress Deloria of the Holy Roman Empire, Queene of all Albion and Princess Palatine.

Delling

IIRC, I liked making the burgers, but it was the Ms. Astro Chicken sidescroller minigame that I hated in 4 because I couldn't do it. :P You'll hate what you can't do. :P I never really thought of the anti-grav rink part of the game as a minigame so much as a puzzle and I always interpreted the insane controls for the confusion experienced by a floating space janitor. :P

I actually don't recall a minigame in 2. In 3, you can play the first in that sidescroller-action minigame's series from 4  (in 3 it was Astro Chicken).

Also, if you played the remake of 1... ... ...why didn't you just get the magnet and avoid the slots entirely? XD

I really should play QfG at some point... I keep hearing great things about it...
Noli me tangere! Nescio ubi fuisti!
Don't touch me! I don't know where you've been!

Marquess of Pembroke
Duke of Saxony in Her Majesty's Court
Knight of the Swan for Her Imperial Highness

...resistance was obviously useless against a family that could invent italics.

"Let the locative live."

http://my.ddo.com/referral/Delling87

darthkiwi

Oh, yes, Astro Chicken was just bizarre. I didn't understand that at all.

And I'd understand the crazy controls for the antigrav stuff in 4 if it weren't horribly punishing. I had to fiddle with the speed slider and click crazily all over the place just to avoid getting shot, so it was effectively a puzzle but with a really, really punishing time mechanic. And there was no way to tell how to avoid their gunshots. If there were indicators of where they were going to shoot or something you could avoid them, but it's just pointlessly punishing.

And I really don't remember the magnet in the remake. It's been a while since I played it. I just remember being rather frustrated by most of it, but then it was an old Sierra game, so that's par for the course.

If you want to play QfG I advise you either play the AGD remake of 2 (which is a really, really good job and just a brilliantly put together game) or QfG4. I played them in that order (so didn't carry a character over) and had a great time. I think some light walkthrough use is probably required - it's not always obvious what to do next - but the overall experience is a really compelling combination of RPG and adventure.
Prince of the Aquitaine. Duke of York.

Knight errant and consort to Her Grace the Empress Deloria of the Holy Roman Empire, Queene of all Albion and Princess Palatine.

Deloria

You only say that because you haven't played QfG1 or GfG3, both of which are also very good. I'd recommend starting with the first one and working your way through, but the fifth one isn't really worth playing. It's very pretty, but it's mostly a fan-game more than anything else.
 
Holy Roman Empress
Queen of *all* Albion
Précieuse and salonnière! :D
"In cases of doubt about language, it is ordinarily best to consult women."-Vaugelas
Space! :D Extraterrestrium! :D Espace! :D

darthkiwi

You're right, I have just listed the two games (except 5) that I've played and ignored the ones I haven't. XD I really must play through them all in sequence one day.
Prince of the Aquitaine. Duke of York.

Knight errant and consort to Her Grace the Empress Deloria of the Holy Roman Empire, Queene of all Albion and Princess Palatine.

crayauchtin

Now, now, QfG5 is worth playing. Is it as good as the others in the series? Not at all. It's a lot more heavy-handed with RPG elements, and there's a lot of "we're really going out of our way to tie up loose ends" fan service in there (which I think we can agree isn't necessarily a bad thing, depending how its done!) -- but, the plot is good (not as solid as QfG2 or QfG4 which I think are truly spectacularly inspired stories -- but still, a really good story), the puzzles are engaging and fun, and even the dagger-throwing mini-game is fun at the easier difficulty levels.

Worth playing -- just not the best in the series by any means.
"If your translation is correct, that was 'May a sleepy hippopotamus lie down on your house keys,' but you're not sure. Unfortunately, your fluency in griffin-speak is too low."

We're roleplaying in the King's Quest world: come join in the fun!

DawsonJ

I've played through all of the SQ games (by means of walkthroughs, because I suck  :-\). The problem I had through most of the series was the How was I supposed to know even notice that?! feeling.  *Which reminds me... how does Amanita Games get any buyers with Java games that rely heavily on game designer mind reading?  ::)*  But, I really liked the second half of Space Quest 6.  The beginning is dark, boring, and pretty well sucks (even with a walkthrough), but the rest was humorous and fun.  That being said, the game still had certain things you were supposed to instinctively know to do without even a single clue.

As far as SQ4's concerned... between the sticky movements, the CPU's desire to kill you, and the fact that the original game crashed like crazy, I came to hate trying to play through that game.  I tried and gave up, tried again and gave up... finally, I finished the game!  It just sucked getting through it.

I'm considering picking up the Quest for Glory series from GOG someday.  I just really have to be in the mood for it; right now, I just want to play TSL and KoS and take a break from adventure games for quite a while.  I remember playing one of the QfG games for a couple of hours and actually enjoying it many years ago.

Back to the original post:  I'm feeling you on the SQ remakes.  I can't believe so many people really love that series.  I haven't even touched the remakes yet.  They're just sitting in a "digital pile" of adventure games I've acquired (legally) that are quite a distance down my To Play list.

Haids1987

#273
Please don't kill me, but I harbor a secret love for "You Don't Know You're Beautiful" by One Direction. ;] The little twelve year-old inside who cried from joy at the Backstreet Boys concert comes out when she hears that song!


(Hey! Post 7200! Go Haids! :pleased:)
STATUS:
-Drinking water
-Checking the forum. 

Perpetually. ;D
Erica Reed is Katie Hallahan.
Leader of the "I <3 Doon" Fanclub

Deloria

Please don't kill me, but I think the opening to Game of Thrones is the best thing about it. XD There are steampunk flying buttresses! :D
 
Holy Roman Empress
Queen of *all* Albion
Précieuse and salonnière! :D
"In cases of doubt about language, it is ordinarily best to consult women."-Vaugelas
Space! :D Extraterrestrium! :D Espace! :D

writerlove

Quote from: Haids1987 on June 07, 2012, 08:54:59 AM
Please don't kill me, but I harbor a secret love for "You Don't Know You're Beautiful" by One Direction. ;] The little twelve year-old inside who cried from joy at the Backstreet Boys concert comes out when she hears that song!

(Hey! Post 7200! Go Haids! :pleased:)

Hey I'm not going to hate on you. I still have all my boyband music in my iTunes and don't care one bit. I tried listening to some of their songs but it's not my cup of tea. Prefer my 90s boybands (Team NSYNC all the way!)
"Love can't be banished, even from this place. ... still less can it be banished from my heart."
"ENOUGH! Burden me not with thy poetry."-KQ6

GrahamRocks!

Please don't kill me, but... I actually don't really mind characters like:

Jar Jar Binks

Navi

Short Round

and, of course, Cedric. Especially Cedric, seeing as if I DID, I probably wouldn't be writing my KQ5 story in the first place and would have left it alone.

Oh, and I really like Indiana Jones 4, Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events' movie, the Johnny Depp Charlie and The Chocolate Factory (which seemed to follow the first book pretty well for the most part), and the Alice in Wonderland movie.

Didn't like The Spiderwick Chronicles movie, though, seeing as they took out so much from the books achanged quite a few things (Byron the Griffin is NOT Arthur's pet, he's Simon's who rescued him. He doesn't require some stupid "magic words" to summon him, he's how they get to the junkyard in the first place! And, they took out most of the fairies mentioned in the books, save for Sprites, Ogres, Goblins, Brownies, and Griffins. And they changed the ending slightly)- including not even so much as a MENTION of book 4: The Ironwood Tree, which did have some important plot points that were ignored.

Deloria

Please don't kill me, but I don't get what the big deal is with Will and Kate. :S Or Diana. I'd have been into Victoria and Albert, but that's because I still think England was magical in the 19th century. :P
 
Holy Roman Empress
Queen of *all* Albion
Précieuse and salonnière! :D
"In cases of doubt about language, it is ordinarily best to consult women."-Vaugelas
Space! :D Extraterrestrium! :D Espace! :D

KatieHal

Huh, I would not have expected that one from you, Deloria!

Also, I like Navi. She's kinda annoying, but mostly it's funny. "Hey! Listen!" Plus, she IS helpful!

And Short Round's just fine! He's a classic at this point!

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

GrahamRocks!