Author Topic: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.  (Read 8361 times)

Offline Baggins

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Apparently Dave Dorman totally criticized thr direction of the superman comics, and even the current US administration.  

Dave Dorman is a popular, and well known artist of comic book covers and posters. I remember him from his Star Wars and Indiana Jones artwork for Lucasfilm/Lucasarts and Dark Horse. He has done quite a bit of stuff including covers for Hellboy and even Superman, IIRC. He is actually pretty prolific. I have a handful of issues both Star Wars and Indiana Jones he did covers for thus my surprise to see this come up.

He had this to say about Superman's renunciation of US citizenship;

Quote
“I find it very hard to believe that DC Comics has chosen to take Superman–the first and greatest of America’s super heroes and a cultural icon for many generations–and molded him into a piece of political propaganda for this current climate of socialism and world unity. For generations, Superman has stood as a role model for both children and adults, giving them pride in America with his values of ‘Truth, Justice and the American Way.’ Unfortunately, DC Comics has chosen to corrupt that role model, bending it to America‘s current path of failure with ’Mistruth, Social Justice and a One World Order.‘ In this day when Barack Obama calls the United States ’unexceptional,‘ it saddens me that DC Comics and their Superman creative team couldn’t have restored this true American role model and given kids in America the faith that our great country truly is still exceptional. With one comic, they’ve castrated Superman and hastily thrown away more than 80 years of his patriotic legacy.”

In related news apparently DC has received enough fan criticism on this story direction, they are now claiming they may change the direction of the story to better fit Supeman's traditional role.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2011, 02:20:55 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Arkillian

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2011, 05:05:38 PM »
What happened in the comic in question? I don't collect Superman, but I use to collect alot of DC comics


Offline Baggins

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2011, 06:09:34 PM »
It's an upcoming comic, apparently Superman gets into a peaceful protest in Iran. He uses none of his powers. Apparently Ahminojhad (sp?) accuses the US of sending him to interfere. American gov is afraid his actions will start a war...

So Superman becomes upset that he is being used as a political wedge. So he is to decide to give up his American citizenship to become a citizen of the world/universe... So that he can do whatever he wants with immunity without anyone accusing him of  secretly pushing a US agenda.

Something like that.

There are rumors he is being manipulated by some entity that is pushing him towards feelings of superiority, in giving up his US citizenship, he might start seeing himself a god/dictator and start taking proactive role in the world, ruling over it to bring peace.... Essentially becoming like Zod I suppose.

But whatever the original idea was they are apparently rethinking it, since many found it offensive apparently.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2011, 08:13:37 PM »
For generations, Superman has stood as a role model for both children and adults, giving them pride in America with his values of ‘Truth, Justice and the American Way.’
Was that before or after the comics about the Japanese in US internment camps? :P

Sometimes I think people take comic books waaaaay too seriously.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2011, 08:20:58 PM »
What you said, Enchantermon!

It's something interesting and new and risky for Superman. I think it'd be great if they went with it. It's not like comics are known for never rewriting storylines and pretending things they don't like never happened and rebooting the entire universe every five years or so or anything :P

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Offline Arkillian

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2011, 08:46:13 PM »
I donno. See, Superman was always mean to be the model American citizen. It's ironic cause he's an alien from outer space. HE was never meant to have the awesome powers he has today, so he was much more humble at day one. He's suppose to be the one that grounds what it is to be human cause he is innocent and doesn't think otherwise.

They BETTER be mind warping him cause this is actually REALLY out of character for him. I'm not about to do a major protest to DC about it though.


Offline KatieHal

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2011, 09:02:41 PM »
The fact that that's what he was made to be is, to me, why it would be so interesting and bold for him to denounce that. Especially when there's a lot of controversy in the US right now about various human rights and citizen's rights. A storyline where Superman of all people stands up and says "No, I'm NOT proud to be an American," could be very interesting and very powerful.

(that said if it's just some gimmick of part of a storyline about a superiority complex on his part, that does make it less interesting, IMO)

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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2011, 10:12:43 PM »
Why SHOULDN'T he be proud to be an American, exactly?

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2011, 10:18:31 PM »
There could be plenty of reasons--really, pick one that the writer is a supporter of (or not). I don't really know that I want to go on about it and potentially turn the thread into a heavy political debate, though. But suffice to say, there are plenty of things happening in/because of the United States that many people don't agree with, many of whom are themselves citizens. I think that much is rather obvious.

Katie Hallahan
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Offline Arkillian

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2011, 01:09:50 AM »
It's interesting timing considering the controversy with Bin Laden.


Offline Baggins

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2011, 03:41:24 AM »
It's slightly crazy worrying about 'America's human rights violations' when quite a few of the UN countries that complain about 'them' tend to be ten times worse... Seriously just look at who is on the council of human rights, such 'shining' examples such as China, Libya, Iran, Venezuela just to name a few examples... It's usually these groups that are the loudest at pointing fingers at America. These are the nations with the highest number of violations.

Sure America has room to grow (there are quite a few directions that should be fixed, how 'depends on one's perspective I guess'), I'd argue few countries are 100% perfect (probably closer to none), but it's certainly better than many places in the world. Be glad room to improve can actually exist there, it's largely still one of the most free societies on earth, giving a voice to most people (protests and speech are protected rights).

I have to say I'm proud to be an American and for ideals for which the constitution stands for, and that I try to live up to, to the best of my ability. I realize that individuals do not always go about representing those ideals in a proper manner sometimes. But they don't represent me, I represent myself. If people choose to ignore my representation, then that's a problem they will have to deal with...
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 03:56:19 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2011, 05:38:03 AM »
It's interesting timing considering the controversy with Bin Laden.
Just coincidence, though. I heard about this before the news about Bin Laden came out.
It's slightly crazy worrying about 'America's human rights violations' when quite a few of the UN countries that complain about 'them' tend to be ten times worse... Seriously just look at who is on the council of human rights, such 'shining' examples such as China, Libya, Iran, Venezuela just to name a few examples... It's usually these groups that are the loudest at pointing fingers at America. These are the nations with the highest number of violations.
The problem isn't other nations who say we suck, it's Americans themselves who say we suck. Just look at the intense debates on things like abortion, gay marriage, war, pornography, censorship, intelligence-gathering, etc. etc. that America is ending up on one side or the other of, and no matter which side it is, there are scores of people who don't like it.

I don't think it's crazy at all to worry about human rights violations within our own borders. In fact, I think instead of worrying about the problems of the world, we should be working to fix our own problems (like, gee, the 14 trillion dollar deficit. :P).
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2011, 07:17:37 AM »
This! Yes, that's what I was getting at, perhaps more clearly put than I was being :)

Katie Hallahan
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2011, 08:10:06 AM »
I travel to a lot if places in the world and there are always self-loathing individuals that complain how much aspects of their nation are.

They can't control things... The only way to
Change things is to begin with your individual self.
, and do what is right. Expose the individuals who do wrong but don't accuse everyone of collective guilt.

That's just how I see things.

In latest news Obama administration is being accused of breaking the Geneva convention in the way they went afte UBL. Their are accusations that he was captured and then executed an was unarmed. If this is true I fault whoever was involved and gave the order. I don't blame all Americans. The UN is apparently going to investigate into it.

Perhaps our government shouldn't be committing human rights violations internationally either.

I had no part in the way Osama was killed, nor do I barbarically rejoice in his death. Though I'm glad they found him, if it prevents further tragedy... I just hope they didn't brake laws in trying to bring him down. I think he at least deserved a trial...
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 08:16:53 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline glottal

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2011, 08:42:56 AM »
I am also from the United States.  And having grown up in the United States, I grew up believing that the United States was the best place in the world to live in.  I didn't even realize how entrenched this view was ... until I left the United States.  Yes, there are things that I miss about the United States, and some things are better over there ... but I also started to appreciate how much certain things suck there too.  I sometimes even feel a bit apprehensive about my return.

While Mr. Obama and I disagree on many things, I have to say that the United States is at least not as exceptional as we tell each other it is.  I wonder if Dave Dorman has ever lived abroad (not travelled, *lived*).

If anything, I think Superman is showing his superiority complex by showing off that he has the option of being a stateless person without taking a huge risk to his livelihood.  He can handle statelessness because he is freakin' SUPERMAN.  Whereas even if I wanted to renounce my U.S. citizenship for political/ideological reasons (I don't) I wouldn't do it because statelessness sucks for ordinary people.

And I would also like to say that I will always be an American whatever my citizenship is or is not, so I have a responsibility to help correct the wrongs that the United States has committed.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2011, 09:12:47 AM »
I have lived abroad, and in many ways to learned appreciate many of the good things America had to offer.

Many of the problems in the USA are not per se USA problems but problems shared by many places on earth.

Some of these problems of human nature I think.

I've found countries that try to control human rights issues through regulations yet the it only causes resentment, and the problems go on.... Education and protests often are a better way of changing society than through laws.

I don't think America should go out pushing it's brand of 'democracy' on other places. Sovereign countries need to decide for themselves how they choose to rule themselves.

I don't know how much talking you have done to immigrants to USS, but many chose to come to America because things were better here than in their home countries. Surprising I've found that many people who came out of socialist and communist countries tend to be more critical of the direction Obama is taking the country. Their were even a few articles earlier this year where former soviet immigrants had switched political parties because they perceived The current politics moving in the direction they had fled from. Surprisingly often these are the groups
that America is exceptional at least From their perspectives.

I think that's actually one of the great things about America is it allowed many people from diverse cultures a chance to escape out of the systems they found oppressive. It is open enough to allow for many often conflicting viewpoints.

So called 'exeptionalism' as a right to bully and control the world that is a warped definition opposite that of the definition immigrants use...
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 05:31:58 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Arkillian

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2011, 07:43:45 PM »
I donno. The southern hemisphere work alot more differently to the Northern hemisphere it seems. I guess it's because we're much younger- specially New Zealand. An NZ version of Supes would be SO much different. Like, he'd probably wear gumboots, and use duct tap and No8 fencing wire to solve everything. It's so hard for me to comprehend the stuff that happens in America. I donno though. I always saw Supes as an icon. Going the way he is now feels like a political statement. To be honest too, I've heard rumours of WW3 on this matter to so I wonder if it's aiming at that :/


Offline KatieHal

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2011, 08:33:37 PM »
Superman's been used as a political statement long before now. As Enchantermon said, there were comics of him rounding up Japanese-Americans for internment camps at one point! And his very motto--"Truth, Justice, and the American Way"--is inherently political. Sometimes this is just more obvious and blatant than others.

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Offline Arkillian

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2011, 09:08:23 PM »
... And now he's saying "Screw the American way, I'm doing it the earthling way"?


Offline Baggins

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Re: Dave Dorman (comic artist) criticizes the new Supeman plotline.
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2011, 04:34:04 AM »
Lord of the Universe? He is beyond being a citizen of earth. Not align with any nation over petty politics, and do whatever he chooses.

Give Superman enough time he'll start rounding up NWO dissidents, once politics move in that direction :p. Out out of a sense of peace and safety. Anyone who disagrees with the concept of utopian one world government are obvious threats and must be dealt with. Reeducation or...
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 04:40:27 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg
 

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