Author Topic: US riots?  (Read 8255 times)

Offline Baggins

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US riots?
« on: August 09, 2011, 09:37:11 PM »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2011, 11:22:42 PM »
I can't believe how bad it is getting. I'm lucky to be isolated from the incidents, but it doesn't make it any easier to handle. I'm afraid for the future. If there could ever be a miracle, I think now would be the time to have it.
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Offline Baggins

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Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Blackthorne

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2011, 08:17:39 AM »
That is not a flash mob.


A flash mob is where people get together to spontaneously "perform".... the AT&T commercial that takes place in Grand Central Station is about flash mobs.  (Where a man throws off his coat, starts dancing and shouts "We are!" and realized he started too soon.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_Mob

These are just random acts of violence.  Flash Mobs are not violent.


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Offline Baggins

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2011, 10:03:18 AM »
Funny how you claim 'flash mobs' are never violent, and then use Wikipedia as evidence! Yet there is a whole section on the 'violent' Philly 'flash mobs'! Which by the way according to the Philly Mayor and other experts appears to be completely racially motivated action (in protest of some perceived 'opression')!

Actually I personally think any thing can be made to be good or bad, almost everything starts as an 'amoral' action (neither good nor bad)...

There is actually are groups that are starting up, 'Flash Mobs of Kindness" as a counter protests to these more violent thieving riots!

Some of this more violent stuff may be inspired by this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coming_Insurrection
A book by French anarchist movements, and very popular among American anarchists.

You can read the entire pamphlet here;
http://tarnac9.noblogs.org/gallery/5188/insurrection_english.pdf

In anycase, words can change meaning over time among cultures, or begin to include new meanings (or completely different meanings, sometimes opposites).
http://writinghood.com/style/grammar/eight-words-which-have-completely-changed-their-meaning-over-time
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 10:41:08 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Blackthorne

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2011, 03:55:11 PM »
Yeah, the Wikipedia article has a very small section about the Philly Riots, which are incorrectly labeled as "Flash Mobs"  that information is incorrect - those incidences are not flash mobs, but rather acts of violence coordinated by electronic means.


Bt
"You've got to keep one eye looking over your shoulder
you know it's going to get harder and harder as you
get older - but in the end you'll pack up, fly down south, hide your head in the sand.  Just another sad old man, all alone and dying of cancer." - Dogs, Pink Floyd.

Offline wilco64256

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2011, 02:07:28 PM »
A better definition:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/flash+mob

Flash mobs should not be labelled as violent.
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Offline dark-daventry

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 01:48:48 PM »
Well, I've been lucky so far; Boston, to my knowledge, hasn't experienced any of these acts of violence. Lets hope it stays that way.
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Offline KatieHal

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 11:57:51 AM »
Chris: I take it you don't recall the aftermath of the Red Sox winning the world series in 2004.

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Offline Baggins

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 12:00:39 PM »
http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/annette_john-hall/20110816_Annette_John-Hall__Why_no_focus_on_kids_who_apologized_for_flash-mob_violence_.html

This article makes reference to a 'random act of violence' occuring in Boston... But I have no idea what they are referring to. A lone wolf maybe?

Or are they just tieing all the high crime rate together?
http://articles.boston.com/2011-07-06/news/29744115_1_police-ramp-shootings-and-stabbings-violence

Quote
Chris: I take it you don't recall the aftermath of the Red Sox winning the world series in 2004.
Earlier this year was also violent riots in Vancouver over the Stanley Cup win by the Bostonians! Violent riots over a game... silly. In this case it was the Canadians that had a violent riot.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 12:05:08 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline KatieHal

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2011, 12:11:37 PM »
They really are silly. But they happen. Boston had some crazy riots when the Sox came in second in 2003, I think--a friend of mine lost his phone in that one--and then there were the 2004 riots (someone dying is the worst of it, but there was destruction of property, burned cars, etc, in that one as well), and then when they won again in 2007, the police were ready for it and kept things from getting out of hand again.

Things like that happened on a smaller scale at my college when we won big sports victories, too. I never did anything crazy or destructive myself, but I was in the crowds that amassed for more than one of them. I still couldn't quite say why people do it--in one of those crowds, our football team beat our rival in an away game, and back on campus there was a crowd that gathered outside our football stadium. A set of the practice field uprights ended up getting jumped on by a lot of people and tilted from the weight as people tried to pull them down. Which makes NO SENSE at all to do, but I can remember thinking that was funny or awesome or something other than stupid and pointless at the time regardless.

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Offline Damar

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2011, 08:14:14 PM »
These actions happen due to a mob mentality.  In the case of sporting events, it's a mob mentality along with people attaching their egos to sports teams.  Your team wins and people want to be a part of that, so they rush the field.  Your team just won, so you feel you won, and you want to share the joy, so you rush to the place the team was just playing.  Once one person does it, others will follow.  At that point you get the mob mentality.

When you're in a group, your sense of identity is gone.  You no longer feel like a responsible person but rather a part of a larger force.  So you do things that you wouldn't normally do because it's no longer you.  You're a part of a whole.  Personal accountability vanishes.  All it takes is one person to start a violent act and others will join in because all individuality is gone.  So now you've got a group on the field, celebrating, their collective egos stoked by the victory.  Those goal posts are coming down.  One of my suitemates in college was actually part of that (he actually showed up in a crowd shot in a Sports Illustrated spread.)  He came into our suite sobbing and when we asked him what was wrong, we discovered he'd been tear gassed.  But riots did happen quite a few times at college.  Particularly if we beat Michigan.  I could start a whole new topic on how much Michigan sucks, but I will abstain for now.  GO BUCKEYES!

Anyway, the mob mentality is behind the riots as well.  There might be socioeconomic, racial, or political sparks that lead to the beginnings of riots, but they evolve from there into a mob mentality with people doing things they never would have done if they were on their own.

Offline writerlove

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2011, 08:17:07 PM »
I agree Katie it doesn't make any sense.I guess it's something about the mob mentality that makes people do stuff the never do normally. There are students at a university in my home state who are known to burn couches (NO I do not go there; i merely convey rumors)
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Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2011, 01:27:26 AM »
I think the 'mob' mentality is driven by their pressure points being pushed, so to speak. For the most part, people can keep their cool, but when agitated, those people can do drastic things for the 'greater good'. For instance, a few years back, a man had come to my college and was given permission by the administration to promote his 'message' to the students. It nearly became a hate crime, when he proceeded in notifying all the students that they were going to go to hell because of their ethnic background or because of their differing beliefs in religion. The students were outraged. Some thought that it would be funny to mock him while he was preaching, but the school had announced that he had the right to promote his beliefs and insisted that the students should not mock him.

Other students however felt like it would be crucial to band together and point out to the administration that they were in the wrong for allowing the man on campus. After the one day of racism and religious ostracism, the man ceased showing his face at the school again (for reasons unknown). Aside from his disappearance from the school, the kids suggested that the school should at least comment on the event. The school refused to speak of it again (at least to my knowledge). The kids did not burn down a building or assault a civilian. It was more or less pacifistic, minus the insults that were thrown the man's way. Apparently, the man was within his right to approach the school and ask for permission to provoke its students in a negative way. He was using his freedom of speech.

However, when a law gets in the way of what is right, shouldn't people have the right to stand up against it? I think violent riots are wrong, because they are missing the point. Two wrongs don't make a right. Turn the other cheek. So on, so forth. But the 'mob' mentality is most likely fueled by confusion or a lack of an explanation. I just don't believe that the 'mob' mentality is fueled by pure chaos. That would truly be detrimental to society in the long run, I think. But something as small as the freedom of speech could motivate a group of people to fight for something.

The stupid, crazy mobs that do random acts of violence after games (whether they win or lose) is just plain idiotic. I wouldn't know how to justify those kind of events. Maybe the alcohol? The drugs? Both?
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Offline Damar

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 06:08:41 AM »
Again though, there's a difference between a mob mentality and people being under stress or faced with injustice.  Injustice and ideation can act as a spark to action,  but once you're dealing with a large group, that all can go out the window.  When you're dealing with a mob mentality there are no individuals and no personal accountability.  When people are anonymous they act in ways they never normally would.  Precedents for this exist throughout history.  The example of Kitty Genovese, the woman who was stabbed and died crying out for help within earshot of her entire community is one example of how people behave when they're anonymous.  They've done psychological tests where it was discovered that if you just ask for help on the street (asking for directions, I believe is what they did) no one will stop to help.  But if you single someone out ("hey you, with the awesome Ohio State shirt can you please help me for a second") you're more likely to get a response.  You've suddenly held them accountable where previously accountability did not exist.  Heck, one could argue that the comments section on any website is a non-regulated illustration of how people will act when they have no personal identifiers.  You have people who normally don't act out in society who suddenly in an internet comment section will spout off vitriolic homophobic and racist statements.  It's not that the the KKK suddenly got a YouTube account.  It's that when you remove personal accountability people will say and do things they normally would not.

So that's magnified when you're dealing with an actual mob.  Your face is lost in the crowd and so is your personal accountability.  There are no consequences for you, the individual, because you, the individual, have ceased to exist.  So when one person throws a brick and starts to loot, you're going to follow suit.  Or more likely, people around him will follow suit which will act as a domino effect throughout the crowd and people will simply follow.  If you want a safe illustration of the mob mentality, go to a play and watch during the final bow.  One person will stand up long before the two leads come out to bow.  Once that person stands, another nearby will stand as well.  Then a third.  Then maybe three more.  Then a whole row.  Then suddenly the entire theater will stand.  It's a group mentality.  No one is thinking individually.  The group is standing and you will too.  It's how our minds work.  And what goes for standing during an ovation also goes for flipping over cars, looting, and burning couches.

Offline Baggins

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2011, 09:38:26 AM »
Quote
It nearly became a hate crime
If you are living in the US, currently any 'speech' is not a hate crime. The only 'hate crimes' recognized is if someone physically commits another crime such injury, murder, robbery, etc, based on their hate.

Just look at that Westboro 'mob', who spout hate all the time... Its constitutionally protected speech according to the 'constitution' and the 'Supreme Court'.

Equally, those who disagree also have the right to counter protest, as that is protected speech. As long as they don't commit crimes in the process of their protest!

Beyond that a private organization (which many schools may fall under) may decide there own 'limits' on the grounds of their school, as to what can be said, or what can be shown. Although they may be going counter to 'discrimination laws' in the state or federal government. In which case groups like ACLU may step in with a lawsuit.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 09:44:22 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2011, 11:41:14 AM »
Again though, there's a difference between a mob mentality and people being under stress or faced with injustice.  Injustice and ideation can act as a spark to action,  but once you're dealing with a large group, that all can go out the window.  When you're dealing with a mob mentality there are no individuals and no personal accountability.  When people are anonymous they act in ways they never normally would.  Precedents for this exist throughout history.  The example of Kitty Genovese, the woman who was stabbed and died crying out for help within earshot of her entire community is one example of how people behave when they're anonymous.  They've done psychological tests where it was discovered that if you just ask for help on the street (asking for directions, I believe is what they did) no one will stop to help.  But if you single someone out ("hey you, with the awesome Ohio State shirt can you please help me for a second") you're more likely to get a response.  You've suddenly held them accountable where previously accountability did not exist.  Heck, one could argue that the comments section on any website is a non-regulated illustration of how people will act when they have no personal identifiers.  You have people who normally don't act out in society who suddenly in an internet comment section will spout off vitriolic homophobic and racist statements.  It's not that the the KKK suddenly got a YouTube account.  It's that when you remove personal accountability people will say and do things they normally would not.

So that's magnified when you're dealing with an actual mob.  Your face is lost in the crowd and so is your personal accountability.  There are no consequences for you, the individual, because you, the individual, have ceased to exist.  So when one person throws a brick and starts to loot, you're going to follow suit.  Or more likely, people around him will follow suit which will act as a domino effect throughout the crowd and people will simply follow.  If you want a safe illustration of the mob mentality, go to a play and watch during the final bow.  One person will stand up long before the two leads come out to bow.  Once that person stands, another nearby will stand as well.  Then a third.  Then maybe three more.  Then a whole row.  Then suddenly the entire theater will stand.  It's a group mentality.  No one is thinking individually.  The group is standing and you will too.  It's how our minds work.  And what goes for standing during an ovation also goes for flipping over cars, looting, and burning couches.

Still, the actual motivation behind joining in with a mob has to be deeper than that. I don't know of many people who will start tipping over cop cars and burn couches unless they were trying to make a statement. If people started burning couches in the middle of the road, I would probably more than likely find a safe route home than to pull over and lend them a hand. If someone thought that it's fun to be in a violent mob, then that person is suffering from psychiatric dementia and knows just how to hide it. Although, I do agree that people feel like they are wearing a mask when they enter a mob. That's enough reason to stay inside a mob, but the reason to join a mob? It's borderline insanity.

Quote
It nearly became a hate crime
If you are living in the US, currently any 'speech' is not a hate crime. The only 'hate crimes' recognized is if someone physically commits another crime such injury, murder, robbery, etc, based on their hate.

Just look at that Westboro 'mob', who spout hate all the time... Its constitutionally protected speech according to the 'constitution' and the 'Supreme Court'.

Equally, those who disagree also have the right to counter protest, as that is protected speech. As long as they don't commit crimes in the process of their protest!

Beyond that a private organization (which many schools may fall under) may decide there own 'limits' on the grounds of their school, as to what can be said, or what can be shown. Although they may be going counter to 'discrimination laws' in the state or federal government. In which case groups like ACLU may step in with a lawsuit.

I was going overboard by using that as a metaphor, but yes, I know what a hate crime is. Considering that there were no laws being broken (if anything, they were being upheld), then there can't be a 'crime' present. Agreed.

I do think that the students were being wronged though when the administration told the students to not antagonize him. It's almost as though the school was for the man's message, but that almost sounds silly. I guess the school could argue that they didn't want the students to be distracted by the man's bickering, but wouldn't disallowing him from coming on to the campus in the first place be a better solution?
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Offline Baggins

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2011, 12:09:38 PM »
Well out civility, "antagonization" would probably fall under 'Provocation' laws. As in 'Provoke' someone into commiting a crime. It's one thing to counter protest, it's another intentionally "provoke" your opponent into doing something physical.

What constitutes as "Provocation" could vary. It's possible his 'hate-filled rhetoric' could have 'provoked' the counter protesters into a violent riot. Like yelling "fire" in a theatre could provoke terror in the audience.

There is a big arguement that the Westboro nuts are intentionally provocateurs looking for those they picket, trying to intice violence.

If the police for example act as agent provocateurs, it can throw out their case! But its often used to disrupt protests.

Holding up signs, should never be considered "antagonization" or "provocation". If they started throwing tomatoes or rocks or molotovs on the other hand... That would be criminal.

Also if someone tries to 'interupt' a speaker, they might find themselves escorted away... This is quite normal actually. Most places have a 'respect' the speaker rule, and wait for question and answer period before questions and comments can be made.

I wouldn't necessarily consider that the school, 'supported the speaker', by letting him speak. I'm somewhat impressed that they would give a controversial speaker a chance to speak, rather than blocking him. Blocking him, could have possibly lead to an ACLU lawsuit even. They may have just been following standard 'decorum' given to all speakers visiting the school.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 12:24:58 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Damar

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2011, 01:37:29 PM »
Still, the actual motivation behind joining in with a mob has to be deeper than that. I don't know of many people who will start tipping over cop cars and burn couches unless they were trying to make a statement. If people started burning couches in the middle of the road, I would probably more than likely find a safe route home than to pull over and lend them a hand. If someone thought that it's fun to be in a violent mob, then that person is suffering from psychiatric dementia and knows just how to hide it. Although, I do agree that people feel like they are wearing a mask when they enter a mob. That's enough reason to stay inside a mob, but the reason to join a mob? It's borderline insanity.

You're assuming that someone is making a conscious choice to join a mob once it's already started being violent.  Some people do, but they're about looting and criminal activity.  There's a difference between a person walking down the street and seeing a mob and the person in the middle of it.  And being in the middle of the mob may have been a benign act in the first place.  Maybe you walked down to see what was going on (when Pittsburgh hosted the G20, I had a walk around just to see how they had downtown on lockdown.  If a protest had gotten violent I would have been right in the middle of it without me seeking out a mob).  Likewise if you're at a sports event, you're in the middle of a mob.  If that mob gets ugly, you're not choosing to be part of it, you simply are part of it by default.  You were already in the crowd and now there's not an easy way out.

And certainly not everyone is going to completely behave like a mindless drone, but the thing about crowds is that there's a lot of people.  And the more a certain mood is set, the more likely it is that people will join in because they're not thinking about consequences.  Mental illness really doesn't enter into the equation.  This is how humanity as a species thinks and operates.

Offline Fierce Deity

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Re: US riots?
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2011, 02:09:27 PM »
And certainly not everyone is going to completely behave like a mindless drone, but the thing about crowds is that there's a lot of people.  And the more a certain mood is set, the more likely it is that people will join in because they're not thinking about consequences.  Mental illness really doesn't enter into the equation.  This is how humanity as a species thinks and operates.

I would disagree.
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