Castlevania game series discussion

[Baggins]

Carmilla

I didn't really bring up Carmilla, because like Death, they exist outside of Castlevania. Both are derivered from myth.

I was mainly referring to characters invented in previous Castlevania games, and revinteted in the new universe.

Abbot Vincient Dorin, is another character reinterpreted from a minor Castlevania Character, from Portrait of Ruin.

Also, regarding my confusion of Lords of Shadows relevance to Lament of Innocence was the fact that Dave Cox had revealed that Gabriel was a b****** child of the Cronqvist family. He's not a Belmont by blood, but rather by choice. Also, there's mention of the Combat Cross (or Vampire Killer) being created by Rinaldo Gandolfi. It's almost identical to Lament, except the protagonist is a Cronqvist turned Belmont, rather than being a Belmont originally.

Ya, the game has alot of easter eggs and nods to the main series. Like the Bernhard family who once owned Carmilla's castle, is a reference to Walter Bernhard.

It also has alot of nods and easter eggs to other series, like Half-Life, Portal, and Ocarina Time!

[spoiler]Plus the fact that Gabriel becomes Dracula between the the time of the game and the future is very different. He started to become Dracula in the DLC. In the main timeline Mathias Cronquist became Dracula.[/spoiler]

With the rise of Dracula int he series we still need to see a rise of a group of vampire killers to challenge him.

[Fierce Deity]

Carmilla

I didn't really bring up Carmilla, because like Death, they exist outside of Castlevania. Both are derivered from myth.

I was mainly referring to characters invented in previous Castlevania games, and revinteted in the new universe.

Abbot Vincient Dorin, is another character reinterpreted from a minor Castlevania Character, from Portrait of Ruin.

Yeah, Vincent played a very small role in Portrait, but his character is befitting nonetheless to the Abbot. Also, Death is a staple in the franchise. There has probably been an installment that didn't feature Death, but I wouldn't be able to think of it because of the vast amount of times he's been in the series. Carmilla, though being outside of Castlevania had only appeared once in the entire series. She played the antagonist in Circle of the Moon who was trying to resurrect Dracula. Whatever the case, I think Carmilla's appearance in Lords of Shadow was an intention just as much as Cornell, Vincent, and Brahner were. That's the only reason why I brought it up.

Also, regarding my confusion of Lords of Shadows relevance to Lament of Innocence was the fact that Dave Cox had revealed that Gabriel was a b****** child of the Cronqvist family. He's not a Belmont by blood, but rather by choice. Also, there's mention of the Combat Cross (or Vampire Killer) being created by Rinaldo Gandolfi. It's almost identical to Lament, except the protagonist is a Cronqvist turned Belmont, rather than being a Belmont originally.

Ya, the game has alot of easter eggs and nods to the main series. Like the Bernhard family who once owned Carmilla's castle, is a reference to Walter Bernhard.

It also has alot of nods and easter eggs to other series, like Half-Life, Portal, and Ocarina Time!

[spoiler]Plus the fact that Gabriel becomes Dracula between the the time of the game and the future is very different. He started to become Dracula in the DLC. In the main timeline Mathias Cronquist became Dracula.[/spoiler]

With the rise of Dracula int he series we still need to see a rise of a group of vampire killers to challenge him.

I think with the rise of Dracula, there will have to be a group of vampire killers, but there's one problem . . .

[spoiler]With the Belmont name "tainted", so to speak, by Gabriel's transformation, I don't think there are going to be any Belmonts fighting Dracula. Even the Cronqvist family would be too close for comfort. I suppose they can try to create a new family, but that would probably attain negative feedback. If they can get the Belmonts to fit the story and not be conflicted with Gabriel's true identity, then all more power to them. Or . . . they can tie in Circle of the Moon and try to justify how the Baldwins and the Graves got a hold of the whip. [/spoiler]

[Baggins]

Yeah, Vincent played a very small role in Portrait, but his character is befitting nonetheless to the Abbot. Also, Death is a staple in the franchise. There has probably been an installment that didn't feature Death, but I wouldn't be able to think of it because of the vast amount of times he's been in the series. Carmilla, though being outside of Castlevania had only appeared once in the entire series. She played the antagonist in Circle of the Moon who was trying to resurrect Dracula. Whatever the case, I think Carmilla's appearance in Lords of Shadow was an intention just as much as Cornell, Vincent, and Brahner were. That's the only reason why I brought it up.

Actually she is in quite a few games, Castlevania II (the mask Vampirilla, it's a translation issue), Rondo of a Blood, Judgment and at least a few more. Sometimes due translation issues she gets called Camilla as well.

She was also going to appear in Castlevania 64 but was cut.

Laura also appears in a few games including Rondo of Blood and Portrait of Ruin.

There is also Orlox who appeared in SOTN, and is based on Count Orlock from Nosferatu..

By the way point of note the whip in CotM is the Hunter's Whip, not the Vampire Killer. Apparently even the Japanese version of the game makes he distinction that it's not the same whip.

[Fierce Deity]

By the way point of note the whip in CotM is the Hunter's Whip, not the Vampire Killer. Apparently even the Japanese version of the game makes he distinction that it's not the same whip.

Well, that definitely explains a lot. 

I never really liked CotM, it was too distinct from the other series' entries. But now it seems like there is apparently a second group of vampire hunters that have a legendary whip that can also kill Dracula. Coincidence?

[Baggins]

Hah hah.

On a related note, many of the early Castlevanias had many various 'mystical whips'. Like the Thorn Whip, or the Chain Whip, Flame Whip, etc! I think it was in Aria of Sorrow/Dawn of Sorrow that you can also get ahold of a 'Whip Sword' and the "Nebula" whip. Portrait of Ruin also had 'Undead Killer" whip and "Jet Black Whip".

Story was never important part of castlevania games (it was always kinda of an afterthought)... I love COTM, simply because it was a fun game... and challenging (perhaps the most challenging of the Metroidvanias, although Order of Ecclesia is also tough)... The card system offered for alot of variety to the gameplay.

[Fierce Deity]

I love COTM, simply because it was a fun game... and challenging (perhaps the most challenging of the Metroidvanias, although Order of Ecclesia is also tough)... The card system offered for alot of variety to the gameplay.

That's something we can both agree on. The difficulty in CotM was definitely present. The difficulty kept me interested till the end. But out of the Metroidvanias, CotM seems to be the only one that doesn't have multiple endings and allow you to play as a rival character. In Harmony of Dissonance, you can play as Maxim, and in Aria/Dawn of Sorrow you could play as Julius Belmont. I think CotM could have been interesting if you followed Hugh's path and see what he was up to, rather than the class system where it modified your stats based on the password you would use. CotM was a good game, but in comparison to the other Metroidvanias, it was primitive (which makes sense it being the first GBA Castlevania). So retrospectively, I look down on it, but the difficulty was something I can not deny.

Also, while story was never a priority with Castlevania games, I think a lot of them had potential. Like I had said, there was never an arcing storyline that spanned the entire series, but I could play Order of Ecclesia and learn about this new cult called Ecclesia that was organized to prevent Dracula from returning. Yet, for a Castlevania fan, it is even more intriguing, because it has always been the Belmonts who took care of Dracula. Therefore, the story can evolve and branch out. I for one love the Aria/Dawn of Sorrow story. Soma's story is an interesting one, but you'll get no spoilers from me. 

And in reference to the difficulty of Order of Ecclesia:

Me playing Level 1 Hard Mode = 

[Baggins]

Well, actually COTM has the five bonus character classes, each time you beat the game you unlock another. I found that to actually be pretty deep. I love shooter mode with its unique silver dagger subweapon (also try it out with no subweapon weapon crash!).

The no magic Vampire Killer mode was alot of fun too, harkening back to the old Castlevanies.

Also the size of the castle in COTM always felt bigger to me than the castle in HOD. Harmony of Dissoance might have had two castles, but they were mostly the same. Not as cool as the inverted castle. Then there was that caterwauling it called music! The game was kinda too easy too.

Seriously, Aria of Sorrow was the first GBA metroidvania to surpass COTM for me in fun factor. I actually like them about equally... But Aria of Sorrow had a pretty compelling story, a great interface (about as feature filled as far as abilities as the Card system offered), and the music was great too.

Dawn of Sorrow was just about as fun, but had a much weaker story... the art style wasn't as cool imo. Actually overall I find it slightly less fun than COTM.

Like I had said, there was never an arcing storyline that spanned the entire series,

Funny thing is IGA tried to make one, by creating a timeline. HOD has you playing as the son of Simon Belmont for example Castlevania Adventure, and Belmont's Revenge are directly tied to each other.

curse of darkness is sort of a direct sequel to Castlevania III.

Portrait of Ruin is a sequel to Bloodlines.

SOTN is a sequel to Dracula X:Rondo of Blood


Dawn of Sorrows is a sequel to Aria of Sorrows.



Legacy of Darkness is more or less a prequel to Castlevania 64

There has always been, such and such is such and such's grandfather, grandson, etc. But the stories were so standalone, it largely didn't matter.

The timeline is alot more cut and dry than say Zelda. Because their are actual physical dates given. Sometimes the games makes references to previous events in a rudimentary way (Trevor, Grant Dynasty, Sypha zombies in SOTN).

The whole idea of Judgment's story was that heros and villains from all points in the timeline come together forced to fight each other to save the universe! Again most of these characters are generally come from specific timeline years, and it filled in a few gaps as far as backstories or epilogues to events from previous games. Even the manual was pretty clear on explaining each character's role and history based on previous appearances in the games.

ETC.

Still for all that, the stories are generally pretty weak...! You can play the games, and totally ignore them and have fun.

In that way I'd say Lords of Darkness is very different, as the story is a major part of the game. They even went as far to create a mythology for the world, and each character, even minor enemies have much deeper histories than in any previous Castlevania game. Even the fact that the entire story is narrated in a storybook manner is a departure from any other Castlevnia. The game has a kind of dark fairy tale feel to it.

[Fierce Deity]

Right, despite the games that were directly connected or related somehow, the stories are roughly separated from one another. Like Castlevania 64 is not related to Symphony of the Night, Aria of Sorrow is not related to Harmony of Dissonance, and Order of Ecclesia is not really related to anything. So it's almost like there are mini-arcs. It makes it easy for IGA to add a new entry that does not have to be held down by a previous installment, a la Order of Ecclesia. The same could be said for Zelda. Majora's Mask was a sequel to Ocarina of Time, but Wind Waker and Twilight Princess are not interrelated at all.

Also, for the record, the protagonist in HoD, Juste Belmont, is the grandson of Simon Belmont. There's no reference to who Simon's son was or to who Juste's father was. But I'd be interested in dwelling on this further, because for a Belmont, Juste looks an awful lot like Alucard.

Juste Belmont

[Baggins]

LOL, that artist, all her male characters look kinda like Alucard!   If Alucard had dark hair!

COne to think of it Alucard after Dracula is one of the most well used and developed characters in the series. He has one of the most developed storylines. Appearing in essentially half a dozen main series games.

He turns on his father in C3. He goes into sleep at the end. Wakes up for SotN. Becauses a member of a secret cabal attempting to stop Dracula once and for all.

He also appeared in a Legends, though that game is outside the main timeline. It implied he was the father of Trevor.

[KatieHal]

This has gotten way off topic, so I'm going to split the Castlevania chat into a new thread.

[Cez]

thanks, Katie! My thread had gotten hijacked!

[Fierce Deity]

This has gotten way off topic, so I'm going to split the Castlevania chat into a new thread.

thanks, Katie! My thread had gotten hijacked!

Sorry guys. 

One interesting discussion leads into another, I suppose.

[KatieHal]

It's fine--it just needed it's own thread

[Baggins]

Ironic, Katie, how you move the topic, because it went off topic, and now the topic has diverged off topic discuss about going off topic!

The last five posts including this one are off topic!

[Fierce Deity]

Quite ironic, but let's keep things rolling. What's your favorite sub-weapon when playing as a Belmont?

[Baggins]

Well obviously, depends on the boss... But in general, the axe or the cross are the best... For damage output...

[Fierce Deity]

Yeah, agreed. I use the cross for continuous damage, and I use the axe for flying bosses. I don't think I've ever used the Bible. But the Holy Water also makes good work of bosses who are bound to the ground. It was a stupid question, but I couldn't think of anything else to talk about.

Wasn't there talk of another Castlevania from IGA from a Tokyo Game Show awhile back?

[Baggins]

Well I think IGA has discussed possiblity of a new one maybe for the 3DS, not sure...

He also discussed another 3D one starting Alucard... But I think it was cancelled by the powers that be in Konami, because they didn't find his gameplay styles weren't successful enough for mainstream, and wanted something that incorporated action and adventure better (to draw in more players)... Hence Lords of Shadow...

But I'd be surprised if he was still working on it...

[Fierce Deity]

I think anything with Alucard will sell just fine. SOTN to this day is regarded as the best Metroidvania among the majority of fans. Even though I think that is debatable, IGA could make a crappy 3D action adventure game much like Lament, smack Alucard's character on the cover, and it'll be a bestseller among the franchise. It's a bold statement, but I think that is how strong Alucard's character is as a protagonist. He's a fan favorite.

[Baggins]

Well actually that's not the problem... Castlevania has always been kind of a niche market... Apparently its not as popular as it once was... It was selling but it pretty much only bought by the niche fan market... So its not the big seller or as popular as games by Hideo Kojima...

Basically it hasn't been a big seller for years (reminded of the history of KQ sorta)... Even games that had Alucard, he's really obviously huge with fanboys and fangirls of Castlevania, the average player who doesn't play Castlevania probably doesn't know anything about him... or would care.

That's one of the major reasons why Hideo Kojima was partially saddled with Lords of Shadow, and it was passed onto another team. So they could create something that not only the core fans would like, but something that had mass market appeal. Last I heard, it actually was quite a bit more successful than IGA's tries at the games (LOS has sold over 1 million copies sold, almost three to five times the amount of most of the previous games), so much so that they might be sidelining him even more (hopefully not like Nintendo did with Gunpei Yokei)... The last Castlevania game to sell over a million was either Circle of the Moon and/or Symphony of the Night (most of IGA's games only sold between 100k-300k at the most worldwide), so LOS proved to be very successful.

http://gamer.blorge.com/2010/11/23/castlevania-lords-of-shadow-reaches-the-1-million-mark/

Most of IGA games had limited printings too, because they weren't big sellers... So some of the games have risen in value among the fans because of that! Harder to find... IGA has also always kinda lamented that Konami never gave him the budget they gave to Hideo Kojima! Most of his Castlevania games were pretty low-budget in comparison to ther Konami games.

The team that worked on Lords of Shadow received a huge budget (thanks in part to their teaming up with Hideo Kojima), enough to hire famous big-name actors like Patrick Steward and Robert Carlyle...

BTW, I seem to recall the higher ups, didn't like the direction the Alucard game was going, it apparently looked pretty bad... It apparently looked outdated, and didn't effectively show off nextgen graphics. IGA looked embarrassed to show it to them apparently... Again he apparently complained about the budget issues...

Also there are some rumors due to Lords of Shadow's success that David Cox might actually have been given control of the series more directly... further demoting IGA...

IGA's working on a game called "Leedmees" currently for the kinect.
http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=247455315285598&id=244336018930861

...and its apparently not very successful...
http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9087938

(Posted on: September 09, 2011, 11:45:32 PM)

Btw, Dawn of Sorrow sold about 200,000 units total. Aria of Sorrow sold about 160,000 units. Both of these games have Alucard as supporting character... That's a failure in comparison to the over 1 million copies LOD sold.

I understand Curse of Darkness and Lament also had very low sales figuresa, somewhere below 300k copies as well... so no where near the success that Lords of Shadow has been. Also consider that both Lament and Curse of Darkness were not highly rated by the gaming market either, who considered them largely outdated, and not as polished as other games out there, 'cheap knockoffs' of Devil May Cry (again likely due to the low budget that IGA blamed it on)...

The last success for Castlevania before LOS was Circle of the Moon that had sold over 1 million units. Before that apparently SotN also sold over 1 million units.

But on average every game between Circle of the Moon and Lords of Shadow have earned less than 200,000 only... So ya, you can see why Konami gave the series away to another team...