Vampires in fiction and media

[KatieHal]

So what if it is? Weren't you just saying in another thread genres need to evolve in order to survive, Baggins?

Why should the vampire genre be any exception? Formerly they were always the bad guys, monsters without redemption, etc. So I say, if someone has a way to turn things on their head by making a few vamps good guys (or even just morally gray ones), more power to them!

Dracula is even the one began it in some ways. Dracula was a monster, yes, but he also seduced both Lucy and Mina. He was the first of the romantic vampires, paving the way for Anne Rice's Lestat, Buffy's Angel, so forth and so on.

Has the good guy vamp now become a cliche as well? Yes. But that doesn't mean it was automatically a bad thing for the genre to take a new turn to stay fresh and interesting.

Also, KQ6 is my favorite.

[Baggins]

Katie, we are talking about KQ, which is based off of classic myth, legends and fairy tale, not modern pop culture...

Roberta utilized classic evil vampire Dracula (probably my favorite vampire story of all time), because it fits in better with what KQ was trying to be at that time...

Somewhere along the line you have completely overlooked my points, and are confounding them, they do not relate to each other!

Dracula is even the one began it in some ways. Dracula was a monster, yes, but he also seduced both Lucy and Mina. He was the first of the romantic vampires, paving the way for Anne Rice's Lestat, Buffy's Angel, so forth and so on.

Only in the Hollywood versions of Dracula, there was nothing romantic about him in the novel, infact the novel went out of its way to describe how repulsive he was...! Have you even read the novel? Lucy is not a sexual character once she becomes a vampire in the novel either... She actually becomes more of a 'nightmare' creature.

The silent classic vampire movie Nosferatu, with the antognist Count Orlock was much closer to the source material it was based on, the Dracula novel. About as repulsive as a vampire you will come by, and closer to what nosferatu are described as (except it gets the 'daylight' issue wrong).

You can watch it here;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcyzubFvBsA

In the novel there is no seduction, no romance, and if there is anything 'sexual' about it (there isn't actually),  one might consider it to be closer to rape... Since the whole premise is that Dracula enters the home, and brutally and violenty attacks both Lucy and Mina for their blood without their will...

Hollywood in general had a habit of adding sex and violence to alot of classic victorian era or early 20th century stories (a period which was prudish by nature). Even HP Lovecraft books for example are nothign like the hollywood adaptations. There is no sex, and there is little violence... Most of the scary moments happen off screen. They have more in common with other horror stories of the time like Dracula, and Frankenstein.

[KatieHal]

I was referring to your agreement with Damar's note of saying vampires should never be good guys.

The novel Dracula DOES make Dracula himself into a romantic figure--not as blatantly as the books & media of today would, but he still is. Lucy's (second) death is very violent and bloody, and her turning from human to vampire by the Count is essentially her being stolen from no less than three different men who love her and want to marry her, and he doesn't merely show up, turn her into a vampire, and that's that. No, he sneaks into her bedroom at night, more than once, slowly drawing out the process of making her like him. He likewise visits Mina in her private rooms at night, and aims to make her one of his brides. For her, unlike Lucy, he even goes the distance of appearing in daylight (which does not kill but does weaken him). Mina's only barely saved by the men--one of whom is her husband, again the theme of stealing her from a romantic rival--before it's too late for her as well. Hell, even some of his actions towards Jonathan Harker have an air of seduction in them. And all this by a creature who already has three wives to begin with!

The story is not simply a monster killing innocent maidens in a straightforward way. Dracula is a complex character, it's reflected in his actions and motivations throughout the novel.

Yes, I know, I've seen the Count Orlock version. He does creepy VERY well.

[Baggins]

No, in fact I was agreeing that KQ fan games mean nothing, as he stated, and thus his reasoning for not rating them. You may go back and notice, that I refused to rate the fan games for a similar reason.

I also agree with his context on how KQ2VGA was changed too much, as it relates to KQ! I felt a 'good vampire' went completely against what KQ nature is, as far as how the point of KQ was to brings together ancient myth, classic fairy tale, and classic literature... The Father made KQ2 and the rest of the KQ series way too complicated, which is not the nature of the official series...

BTW I enjoyed Buffy the Vampire Slayer... I also liked how it tried to remain truer to the idea that Vampires as pure evil, and Angel was only benovolent due to a gypsies curse... You really couldn't trust spike (until he got a similar curse)...  But I don't think Buffy would be good for KQ...

Ann Rice's Vampire Lestat was interesting, although I only saw the movie, which I'll assume is probably very different than the novels.

You assume too much, and "when you assume you make an ass of u and me"...

The novel Dracula DOES make Dracula himself into a romantic figure--not as blatantly as the books & media of today would, but he still is. Lucy's (second) death is very violent and bloody, and her turning from human to vampire by the Count is essentially her being stolen from no less than three different men who love her and want to marry her, and he doesn't merely show up, turn her into a vampire, and that's that. No, he sneaks into her bedroom at night, more than once, slowly drawing out the process of making her like him. He likewise visits Mina in her private rooms at night, and aims to make her one of his brides. For her, unlike Lucy, he even goes the distance of appearing in daylight (which does not kill but does weaken him). Mina's only barely saved by the men--one of whom is her husband, again the theme of stealing her from a romantic rival--before it's too late for her as well. Hell, even some of his actions towards Jonathan Harker have an air of seduction in them. And all this by a creature who already has three wives to begin with!

Personally I think you are 'reading too much into the story'. Yes I would agree that there are three romantic human characters in the story... Seward, Morris, and Harker... But Dracula himself actions are always described in rather unromantic violent, and monsterous ways...

The novel doesn't have the same 'love story' that Bram Stoker's Dracula movie inserted into it (infact that movie added many scenes that the book doesn't have, involving Lucy and Mina both, having more conversational encounters with the beast).

Seduction as a word doesn't even appear in the novel, neither does 'romance' (except in two instances in relation between Harker rand Mina). It's more like three competitors trying to defend from a dangerous predator...

As for those 'three wives"... they aren't even called that in the novel, actually called the "sisters"! "wives" is another term applied to them later on outside the novel as far as I know! Infact, there is hint that they are related to the count, sharing many of his same facial features (some Stoker researchers think that they may even ben Dracula's sisters or daughters, and thus they read incest into the novel)...

They also act like predators! Yes, they mention 'kissing', but to trick him into letting his defenses down. Kiss is also used as a euphimism for the 'bite' of feeding. Its a different contrast to how Dracula attacks his victims later in the novel, in a more violent way...

They make an important point about Dracula's monsterous nature, "You yourself never loved, you never love", although he does claim he can 'love'... This is never touched on again in the story, and not in the descriptions of Dracula's attacks.

[KatieHal]

As for the unofficial games, I don't feel like ranking them because, well, they're unofficial.  No matter how good they are, they're not part of the official universe.  Besides, it's more complicated than just assigning a number.  For example, I really enjoyed KQ2+ but they did things I have a major dislike for.  I don't like all the Father nonsense, and vampires are never, NEVER heroes.  Stake all the blood sucking parasites, that's what I say!  I'm on Team Van Helsing!

If there was a like button!

You can see how the specifics are rather vague in context.

[Baggins]

He is correct, his main point was, "KQ2 was changed too much"... The whole vampire was just one minor example of his main thought (infact its only a few words of the entire paragraph)... Maybe you should read the entire context of the comment?

But this may be going off on another topic, perhaps I suggest, "KQ2:Romancing the Stones changed too much from King's Quest"!