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Can we talk religion?

Started by Sir Perceval of Daventry, October 03, 2011, 07:42:33 PM

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wilco64256

I'd also have to disagree with anyone who makes a blanket claim that atheists somehow automatically think that life is meaningless.  You don't have to believe that life continues in some way after you die just to give your current existence some kind of purpose.  Even those who do believe in life after death still put a great deal of emphasis on the effect their actions will have on their children, grandchildren, and other people in addition to whatever they believe will happen after they die.
Weldon Hathaway

Sir Perceval of Daventry

Quote from: wilco64256 on October 04, 2011, 11:45:43 PM
I'd also have to disagree with anyone who makes a blanket claim that atheists somehow automatically think that life is meaningless.  You don't have to believe that life continues in some way after you die just to give your current existence some kind of purpose.  Even those who do believe in life after death still put a great deal of emphasis on the effect their actions will have on their children, grandchildren, and other people in addition to whatever they believe will happen after they die.

Deloria specifically mentioned nihilism--And that was what I was addressing. Nihilism is separate from Atheism; they can sometimes both be believed but you don't have to be a Nihilist to be an Atheist. An Atheist simply doesn't believe in God or chooses not to; and likely doesn't believe thus in any afterlife. A Nihilist believes life to be meaningless, purposeless. I find it a very negative way of viewing the world. One can be an Atheist and still believe life has value.

Deloria

I honestly don't consider it to be negative. :P It's just a different way of viewing things.

And lemmings don't actually kill themselves intentionally. :P It's the result of their migratory behavior. Because they're driven by strong biological urges, some species of lemmings may migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. In these cases, they may jump into a body of water and attempt to swim across it. They can of course drown if it's too much for them to take, but that isn't the idea. :P

Also, this is my last foray into this thread. :P
 
Holy Roman Empress
Queen of *all* Albion
Précieuse and salonnière! :D
"In cases of doubt about language, it is ordinarily best to consult women."-Vaugelas
Space! :D Extraterrestrium! :D Espace! :D

darthkiwi

To play devil's advocate for a moment, there's no reason to kill yourself just because everything is meaningless. Things without meaning can still have other positive aspects. I wouldn't say that watching comedy films is particularly meaningful, but people still do it because it's fun.

Or, to put it another way: theists or humanists would ask nihilists, "If everything is meaningless, why carry on living?" A nihilist could reply, "Well, why on earth would I want to die right now?"
Prince of the Aquitaine. Duke of York.

Knight errant and consort to Her Grace the Empress Deloria of the Holy Roman Empire, Queene of all Albion and Princess Palatine.

Fierce Deity

Quote from: darthkiwi on October 05, 2011, 04:01:36 AM
Or, to put it another way: theists or humanists would ask nihilists, "If everything is meaningless, why carry on living?" A nihilist could reply, "Well, why on earth would I want to die right now?"

Exactly, my point. Nihilism and Atheism may be different, but they both express the same level of understanding. Atheists have no God, and Nihilists have no order to their world. That we're basically living in a 'spiritual' anarchy. No consequences for our actions, and no rewards for our virtues. But I must bring this up again, even if this world was created from a Big Bang (or Cosmic Oil Spill, as I like to call it) and humans had evolved from the bacterial puss that degrades at the bottom of a cesspool, just look at how far we've come. That's why I asked, would it really be worth it to quit now?

Also, I knew about the lemmings, Deloria. I was just using it as a metaphor, but thank you for correcting me.  :)

Though, I would admit from my own experience, from the outside looking in, religion does provide an alleged purpose and a meaning to all the things that we do not understand. That is definitely more appealing than believing that there is no purpose and that all of this was an accident, but it defines a certain level of pride. I myself, don't like the feeling of not having faith (it's depressing), but to force myself to believe in something that I absolutely don't believe doesn't make it any better.

Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on October 05, 2011, 02:03:54 AM
One can be an Atheist and still believe life has value.

I don't want to stoke the flames much longer on this specific topic of discussion, but could you give an example? I too felt like a lack of purpose and a lack of a God that controls all things went hand in hand. On a daily basis, we humans find a much deeper meaning and purpose in our life. Maybe not in the beginning, but maybe after one becomes a father, he feels like he needs to protect his family for as long as he can. Or a man who takes pride in his work and hopes to make a difference in the world. The list can go on, but would you not say that a God is there to control that which humans can not, and also provides a purpose that we do not fully understand as of yet? It's fine if an Atheist still believes that life has a purpose, but to be honest, I don't think there would be much left to cling on to without a God. They'd already be a borderline nihilist, in my opinion.
Freudian Slip - "When you say one thing, but mean your mother."

KatieHal

This brings to mind one of my favorite lines from the show Angel.

"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."

If there is no greater meaning from God or religion or the like, then  here, today, and now, are the only things that possibly could have meaning. But not in the context of God or your soul, merely in the context of what you choose to do and how you choose to treat your fellow man. Your time is limited, so why not make the most of it?

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Lambonius

Lemmings was a sweet game.  We should talk about that.

Delling

Quote from: Fierce Deity on October 05, 2011, 05:35:47 AM
Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on October 05, 2011, 02:03:54 AM
One can be an Atheist and still believe life has value.

I don't want to stoke the flames much longer on this specific topic of discussion, but could you give an example? I too felt like a lack of purpose and a lack of a God that controls all things went hand in hand. On a daily basis, we humans find a much deeper meaning and purpose in our life. Maybe not in the beginning, but maybe after one becomes a father, he feels like he needs to protect his family for as long as he can. Or a man who takes pride in his work and hopes to make a difference in the world. The list can go on, but would you not say that a God is there to control that which humans can not, and also provides a purpose that we do not fully understand as of yet? It's fine if an Atheist still believes that life has a purpose, but to be honest, I don't think there would be much left to cling on to without a God. They'd already be a borderline nihilist, in my opinion.
...but you have provided your own counter-examples: a father need not believe in God in order to value new life or his family. Our emotions and values are not wholly contingent upon a faith in a deity. If we believe there is no God, it does not make the "sky" less "blue" or "love" less "love". We can ask what defines the abstract values when one sets aside God. That is a harder question to answer for things like "justice" for instance.

One method of defining things that has served society well for a while is the general consensus of the masses (this one works well for the same reason that the sky remains blue: we've all agreed that that frequency of light is blue and that thing in that general direction is usually blue), but I think we can all think of problems with that one.

An atheist who believes life has no purpose is not JUST an atheist. He's already accepted a basic tenet of nihilism (though I believe there are a couple more to go). An atheist simply doesn't believe there is a God: he may still assign any atheistic or God-independent teleology he likes to life.

An atheist can just as readily be an aesthete, an ascetic, a humanist, or a hedonist as he can be a nihilist. Now, if you want to argue those points, you may, but it's a different argument from "rejection of God is rejection of all value".
Noli me tangere! Nescio ubi fuisti!
Don't touch me! I don't know where you've been!

Marquess of Pembroke
Duke of Saxony in Her Majesty's Court
Knight of the Swan for Her Imperial Highness

...resistance was obviously useless against a family that could invent italics.

"Let the locative live."

http://my.ddo.com/referral/Delling87

Deloria

Quote from: Delling on October 05, 2011, 07:31:55 AM
Quote from: Fierce Deity on October 05, 2011, 05:35:47 AM
Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on October 05, 2011, 02:03:54 AM
One can be an Atheist and still believe life has value.

I don't want to stoke the flames much longer on this specific topic of discussion, but could you give an example? I too felt like a lack of purpose and a lack of a God that controls all things went hand in hand. On a daily basis, we humans find a much deeper meaning and purpose in our life. Maybe not in the beginning, but maybe after one becomes a father, he feels like he needs to protect his family for as long as he can. Or a man who takes pride in his work and hopes to make a difference in the world. The list can go on, but would you not say that a God is there to control that which humans can not, and also provides a purpose that we do not fully understand as of yet? It's fine if an Atheist still believes that life has a purpose, but to be honest, I don't think there would be much left to cling on to without a God. They'd already be a borderline nihilist, in my opinion.
...but you have provided your own counter-examples: a father need not believe in God in order to value new life or his family. Our emotions and values are not wholly contingent upon a faith in a deity. If we believe there is no God, it does not make the "sky" less "blue" or "love" less "love". We can ask what defines the abstract values when one sets aside God. That is a harder question to answer for things like "justice" for instance.
I was going to stop posting in this thread, but you're awesome and make me want to say things back. :( We should totally fall back on wholly unsatisfactory sophistic definitions for things like "justice"! :D
 
Holy Roman Empress
Queen of *all* Albion
Précieuse and salonnière! :D
"In cases of doubt about language, it is ordinarily best to consult women."-Vaugelas
Space! :D Extraterrestrium! :D Espace! :D

Lambonius

This thread is like Philosophy 101.

Cez

Yeah, I don't see how atheists can be "hopeless". Some people just have no fears. They know they are here, they know they have a stretch of life, and they are here to enjoy it, firmly believing that when it's over, it's over. That would be a reason enough to press on and enjoy life to the fullest, that in itself, can be more than enough meaning to someone.

I myself am not sure what's there beyond death. I want to think that there's something, but what if it's just "unplug the cable, it ends" --a notion that terrifies me to no end. So, in that sense, life can even have more meaning because It's all I could have! And thus, I want to strive to do it all and leave my mark.

So, I think it's very easy to find meaning in life even if you don't believe in a god or what comes after.


Cesar Bittar
CEO
Phoenix Online
cesar.bittar@postudios.com

KatieHal

Quote from: Cez on October 05, 2011, 01:56:19 PM
I myself am not sure what's there beyond death. I want to think that there's something, but what if it's just "unplug the cable, it ends" --a notion that terrifies me to no end.

Hell, I'm so terrified by that same notion I blogged about it. (Shameless plug ftw!)

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

tessspoon

Quote from: Cez on October 05, 2011, 01:56:19 PM
They know they are here, they know they have a stretch of life, and they are here to enjoy it, firmly believing that when it's over, it's over. That would be a reason enough to press on and enjoy life to the fullest, that in itself, can be more than enough meaning to someone.
This = me.

Delling

Quote from: KatieHal on October 05, 2011, 02:11:25 PM
Quote from: Cez on October 05, 2011, 01:56:19 PM
I myself am not sure what's there beyond death. I want to think that there's something, but what if it's just "unplug the cable, it ends" --a notion that terrifies me to no end.

Hell, I'm so terrified by that same notion I blogged about it. (Shameless plug ftw!)

Build a pyramid?*


*: I realize this could come off as very hyper-intellectual and dismissive, but it's purpose is to sarcastically point out that the way people traditionally deal with that fear is by attempting to accomplish something lasting that will outlive them. :) No offense intended.
Noli me tangere! Nescio ubi fuisti!
Don't touch me! I don't know where you've been!

Marquess of Pembroke
Duke of Saxony in Her Majesty's Court
Knight of the Swan for Her Imperial Highness

...resistance was obviously useless against a family that could invent italics.

"Let the locative live."

http://my.ddo.com/referral/Delling87

Blackthorne

If you pull the plug, disconnect the cable and that's it - who cares?  You wouldn't.  You wouldn't know the difference.  If you want an afterlife, do amazing things right here and right now.  Too many people spend their mortal lives worrying about what kind of afterlife they'll get.  Always worrying about "their reward".  I'm more worried about doing things that matter here and now.  They could matter to a million people, or they could matter to five people.  It doesn't matter; if you do one thing that affects people in a positive way, that kind of action will live on long after you've turned to dust.


Bt
"You've got to keep one eye looking over your shoulder
you know it's going to get harder and harder as you
get older - but in the end you'll pack up, fly down south, hide your head in the sand.  Just another sad old man, all alone and dying of cancer." - Dogs, Pink Floyd.

Fierce Deity

Quote from: Delling on October 05, 2011, 07:31:55 AM
Quote from: Fierce Deity on October 05, 2011, 05:35:47 AM
Quote from: Sir Perceval of Daventry on October 05, 2011, 02:03:54 AM
One can be an Atheist and still believe life has value.

I don't want to stoke the flames much longer on this specific topic of discussion, but could you give an example? I too felt like a lack of purpose and a lack of a God that controls all things went hand in hand. On a daily basis, we humans find a much deeper meaning and purpose in our life. Maybe not in the beginning, but maybe after one becomes a father, he feels like he needs to protect his family for as long as he can. Or a man who takes pride in his work and hopes to make a difference in the world. The list can go on, but would you not say that a God is there to control that which humans can not, and also provides a purpose that we do not fully understand as of yet? It's fine if an Atheist still believes that life has a purpose, but to be honest, I don't think there would be much left to cling on to without a God. They'd already be a borderline nihilist, in my opinion.
...but you have provided your own counter-examples: a father need not believe in God in order to value new life or his family. Our emotions and values are not wholly contingent upon a faith in a deity. If we believe there is no God, it does not make the "sky" less "blue" or "love" less "love". We can ask what defines the abstract values when one sets aside God. That is a harder question to answer for things like "justice" for instance.

One method of defining things that has served society well for a while is the general consensus of the masses (this one works well for the same reason that the sky remains blue: we've all agreed that that frequency of light is blue and that thing in that general direction is usually blue), but I think we can all think of problems with that one.

An atheist who believes life has no purpose is not JUST an atheist. He's already accepted a basic tenet of nihilism (though I believe there are a couple more to go). An atheist simply doesn't believe there is a God: he may still assign any atheistic or God-independent teleology he likes to life.

An atheist can just as readily be an aesthete, an ascetic, a humanist, or a hedonist as he can be a nihilist. Now, if you want to argue those points, you may, but it's a different argument from "rejection of God is rejection of all value".

Very well put. My counter-examples show what people live for once they are already living though. When people start living, is when they find their own purpose in their own life, but what about the overall "purpose" that religion tries to establish? Is this a test from an outsider seeing how humans operate, or is this a holy war over the souls of humans? Those are the theories that I think people get engulfed in when discussing religion, but I'd rather stay away from watching The Matrix a bunch of times and then using it as an example. I feel like everyone has already established the way that I see life. With me, it's about the here and now. Although I'm affected by regret, I try to think how I can live a better life and how I can achieve my own goals. This is my purpose, but when someone says that God has a plan for me, are they saying that God has a plan that coincides with my plan, or that there is a bigger "plan" that I don't know about?

Quote from: KatieHal on October 05, 2011, 02:11:25 PM
Quote from: Cez on October 05, 2011, 01:56:19 PM
I myself am not sure what's there beyond death. I want to think that there's something, but what if it's just "unplug the cable, it ends" --a notion that terrifies me to no end.

Hell, I'm so terrified by that same notion I blogged about it. (Shameless plug ftw!)

An interesting read. I only have one thing to say though.

"In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes." - Benjamin Franklin

You always have taxes to take your mind off things.
Freudian Slip - "When you say one thing, but mean your mother."

wilco64256

I really love that scene in Meet Joe Black when he hears that saying about death and taxes and is so super fascinated by it.
Weldon Hathaway

Delling

Quote from: Fierce Deity on October 05, 2011, 06:35:53 PM

Very well put. My counter-examples show what people live for once they are already living though. When p People start living is when they find their own purpose in their own life, but what about the overall "purpose" that religion tries to establish? [...] With me, it's about the here and now. Although I'm affected by regret, I try to think how I can live a better life and how I can achieve my own goals. This is my purpose [...]

[emphasis added obviously]

Ok, here's the thing: your counter-examples are just as valid as ways of living, period, as they are as you claim (to paraphrase) ways the living live. To make this clear, I could just as easily claim that your purposes of living a better life and attempting to achieve your own goals lack definition, may never get anywhere, etc. Essentially, you can't tell the father that dedicating his life to his family isn't living or the business man that trying to make a difference in the world through his work isn't living. There are tons of people who dedicate themselves to "living the American dream"--high school football star, college athlete, white-collar job with picket fence and family--or some modification thereof. Is it fair for you to say to them that they aren't living yet?? Why? They are simply trying to achieve their own goals--their goals may be trite or cliche but by taking them up and personalizing them, they have made them their own.

The overall purpose that religion tries to establish? It either helps or hinders, validates or rejects, a person's own goals for his own life. Sometimes, people can be disjoint about this: claim a belief system but live another way, other times they can shop around until they find a Christian church or other faith that will accept their chosen way of life. *shrugs* Religion can be as much or as little of an additional ornament or accessory in your life as you choose to agree with and act on it.

Quote from: Fierce Deity on October 05, 2011, 06:35:53 PM
...but when someone says that God has a plan for me, are they saying that God has a plan that coincides with my plan, or that there is a bigger "plan" that I don't know about?

This is something I myself have butted heads with when it comes to religion.

People mean different things when they say that.

Some mean that God has a perfect, moral plan for everyone's life. Deviation from said plan is a sin. Since what you're doing is clearly amoral and/or a sin (some will quote you chapter and verse for this part; others won't), you should jump back on the bandwagon before you get left behind.

Others mean it in a much more commiserative or compassionate way. If something bad happens in their own or somebody else's life, they may dismissively yet encouragingly say: "Well, it's all part of God's plan."

Their meaning may be situational and it may be utterly sincere, but no one should be allowed to play prophet and tell you what God's plan for your life is and hold you to it and demand your obedience (and believe me when I tell you from my own personal experience, there are those who will try exactly that). So, in the end, yes, God may indeed have a plan for your life, but if He is indeed God, then I don't think He needs earthly enforcers and that you should just live your life to the best of your ability, whatever that means to you.
Noli me tangere! Nescio ubi fuisti!
Don't touch me! I don't know where you've been!

Marquess of Pembroke
Duke of Saxony in Her Majesty's Court
Knight of the Swan for Her Imperial Highness

...resistance was obviously useless against a family that could invent italics.

"Let the locative live."

http://my.ddo.com/referral/Delling87

Nonpartisan

Quote from: Fierce Deity on October 05, 2011, 05:35:47 AM

I don't want to stoke the flames much longer on this specific topic of discussion, but could you give an example? I too felt like a lack of purpose and a lack of a God that controls all things went hand in hand. On a daily basis, we humans find a much deeper meaning and purpose in our life. Maybe not in the beginning, but maybe after one becomes a father, he feels like he needs to protect his family for as long as he can. Or a man who takes pride in his work and hopes to make a difference in the world. The list can go on, but would you not say that a God is there to control that which humans can not, and also provides a purpose that we do not fully understand as of yet? It's fine if an Atheist still believes that life has a purpose, but to be honest, I don't think there would be much left to cling on to without a God. They'd already be a borderline nihilist, in my opinion.

As a lifelong atheist (born to atheist parents), I want to respond to this.  I think this is a real gulf between atheists and religious people that both sides often have trouble bridging, and I'd like to try to do it here.

Simply put, for me as an atheist the lack of a God or an afterlife is precisely what gives purpose to my life.  Because I believe my life has no intrinsic value or purpose, I believe that it is my mission to create a life with value.  Whether or not I'm a good person depends on what I do in my life.  Either I live by a moral code, am kind and generous and helpful to others, contribute to the sum total of human knowledge and existence -- or my life was in fact not worth living.  In sum, my behavior and actions become the determiner of my purpose in life.

If I believed in God or an afterlife, I would actually lose a sense of purpose in my life.  I would feel no obligation to make a difference in a life that was just a waiting room for the great hereafter.  And I would feel no desire to make the world better if there were already an all-powerful God who could do that without my help.  There would be no point if my good behavior and actions weren't actually necessary to the improvement of humanity.  To me, becoming religious would lead to nihilism, because of my background and my current beliefs.

I have come to understand that for religious people it is exactly the opposite.  Their sense of purpose is tied to a belief that there is an omnipotent and caring God who made them special and who will preserve their existences after they die.  I have no problems at all with this belief.  In fact, I think it is a similarity between religious people and atheists that too few of us recognize.  Both of us believe what we believe because it gives our lives a maximum of purpose and meaning.  I think that's a key tenet that crosses the boundary between belief and unbelief.
My dad is King Graham, so that makes me a prince!

Lambonius

Quote from: Nonpartisan on October 06, 2011, 11:14:34 AM
Quote from: Fierce Deity on October 05, 2011, 05:35:47 AM

I don't want to stoke the flames much longer on this specific topic of discussion, but could you give an example? I too felt like a lack of purpose and a lack of a God that controls all things went hand in hand. On a daily basis, we humans find a much deeper meaning and purpose in our life. Maybe not in the beginning, but maybe after one becomes a father, he feels like he needs to protect his family for as long as he can. Or a man who takes pride in his work and hopes to make a difference in the world. The list can go on, but would you not say that a God is there to control that which humans can not, and also provides a purpose that we do not fully understand as of yet? It's fine if an Atheist still believes that life has a purpose, but to be honest, I don't think there would be much left to cling on to without a God. They'd already be a borderline nihilist, in my opinion.

As a lifelong atheist (born to atheist parents), I want to respond to this.  I think this is a real gulf between atheists and religious people that both sides often have trouble bridging, and I'd like to try to do it here.

Simply put, for me as an atheist the lack of a God or an afterlife is precisely what gives purpose to my life.  Because I believe my life has no intrinsic value or purpose, I believe that it is my mission to create a life with value.  Whether or not I'm a good person depends on what I do in my life.  Either I live by a moral code, am kind and generous and helpful to others, contribute to the sum total of human knowledge and existence -- or my life was in fact not worth living.  In sum, my behavior and actions become the determiner of my purpose in life.

If I believed in God or an afterlife, I would actually lose a sense of purpose in my life.  I would feel no obligation to make a difference in a life that was just a waiting room for the great hereafter.  And I would feel no desire to make the world better if there were already an all-powerful God who could do that without my help.  There would be no point if my good behavior and actions weren't actually necessary to the improvement of humanity.  To me, becoming religious would lead to nihilism, because of my background and my current beliefs.

I have come to understand that for religious people it is exactly the opposite.  Their sense of purpose is tied to a belief that there is an omnipotent and caring God who made them special and who will preserve their existences after they die.  I have no problems at all with this belief.  In fact, I think it is a similarity between religious people and atheists that too few of us recognize.  Both of us believe what we believe because it gives our lives a maximum of purpose and meaning.  I think that's a key tenet that crosses the boundary between belief and unbelief.

Great post!  I think this is the thread winner, folks.