What did you love best about KQ?

[crayauchtin]

I never found the yeti pie to be terribly nonsensical. The second I bought the custard pie I said, "A custard pie? I'm absolutely going to have to throw this at someone or something."

And there I am in a cave with a yeti coming at me and no weapons to speak of? I'm throwing the pie. It was the first thing I thought to do.

That doesn't mean I forgive such horrible puzzles as the waiting or -- worst of all -- the freaking cheese. Mostly because of this, KQ5 was the most disappointing game in the series for me. Not my least favorite, I don't think, but the one I thought most obviously failed to reach its full potential.

[darthkiwi]

Other puzzles that should be mentioned include the gnome being given the spinning wheel for the marionette, and the tailor being given the golden needle. Yes, they both have a sort of logic to them: gnome + spinning wheel is a fairytale trope, and if you find a needle then you might think you could trade it with the tailor, who is presumably a kind of needle expert.

The problem is that both puzzles are weirdly backwards. You see the cloak and the marionette and ask if you can have them, and are denied. You have no idea how to get them. Once you find the spinning wheel and needle, and give them to their respective owners, only *then* do you learn that yes, the gnome lost his spinning wheel which, as it turns out, is valuable enough to trade for the marionette, because, now that you mention it, it can spin straw into gold. With the needle, it's only after giving it to the tailor that he tells you he 1) lost the needle and 2) happened to be walking by the inn a few days ago and must have lost it there. What annoys me about these is that the information is there - all the backstory needed for the player to solve these puzzles with a minimum of headache is there in the game. But you only get at it *after* you've solved the puzzle, which is ridiculous. In particular, the needle puzzle is absurd because you have no idea that you need to search the haystack: it looks a lot like a bit of the background. And yes, needles in haystacks is a well-known trope, but the existence of the needle isn't even acknowledged until you've already found it.

Also, I'd like to point out that I was completely stuck in KQ4 and 5 at the point where you're supposed to explore the sea and the desert. In KQ2, the sea formed a barrier to the west which was impassable; in KQ3, the desert performed an identical function. So naturally, when I find a sea or desert to the west, I assume the designer is telling me, "Don't bother going that way". It would have been nice if I'd been given a hint along the lines of "There are meant to be bandits in the desert; they might have something useful!"

[Blackthorne]

The puzzles of those games honestly just have a lot to do with gaming and computers at the time that the games came out.  In having this discussion 7,644 times in the past 10 years, it's a unique perspective we have at this point to go and look back and see how things could be changed, but games just weren't always like they are now.  They really believed and used the saving and restoring method of game exploration.  Granted, there were some dead ends that were stupid, like requiring an item from the beginning that you couldn't go back and get, but you were really meant to explore these games, not just cruise through them and move on to the next game.

I don't know about you, but in 1989... I didn't just get to have a large stockpile of games to go through.  Space Quest III was all I had for months.... I had maybe another NES game to play, but that was it for a while.

We can acquire more games now, and often more cheaply.  People tend to speed through things and move on far quicker today than 20 years ago.

Bt

[snabbott]

having this discussion 7,644 times in the past 10 years

Are you sure it wasn't 7645?

I have to admit that I don't remember the dead ends bothering me all that much when these games first came out. Sure, it was annoying to have to go back and replay a bunch of the game in order to progress, but I guess I just took that to be the nature of the genre.

I definitely don't have the patience that I used to - I'm not sure if it's because I'm older, that I have less free time, or that there are so many games to be played and so little free time. Probably some combination of all three.

[Lambonius]

The only real value I take from these conversations (aside from the occasional entertainment value) is a deeper consideration of what makes good puzzle design, and the way in which nowadays, gamers expect a bare minimum of intellectual involvement in a game.  Now, I don't believe that puzzle solutions should be slap-in-the-face obvious like in Telltale games, but I would agree that there should be a certain logic in clearly telegraphing what the player is faced with.  Deep exploration is amazing, but it is also true that sometimes things can be just too obscure or too well-hidden.  Occasionally, it's an art issue--sometimes something isn't obvious enough on the screen itself.  Often, it's that the puzzle itself needs a rethink.  It's something I try to keep in mind when thinking about the puzzle design of the games that I work on, even if crafting puzzles is not my specific task.  

[Numbers]

I thought it was pretty obvious that the needle belonged to the tailor. After all, that innkeeper had no sense of fashion.
/sarcasm

[KatieHal]

Lamb, same here--I enjoy these as there's usually at least one new perspective in them from which we can get new ideas or opinions about game design. For example, I've never really gotten into a discussion about why the 'wait in the library' puzzle is so lacking before. So I got that out of this, some more thoughts on that sort of puzzle!

At this point, it's those discussions I'm more interested in--puzzles like the yeti pie, honey emeralds, etc, have been talked about to death by now

[Bludshot]

At this point, it's those discussions I'm more interested in--puzzles like the yeti pie, honey emeralds, etc, have been talked about to death by now

Well now I feel a little guilty.

Maybe we should find the ultimate done-to-death topic.  A MOE thread that also complains about some of its bad puzzles.

[KatieHal]

Noooooooo!!!

I haven't actually played MoE, also, so I can only participate so much in that one.

And don't feel bad! The rehashed subjects lead to the newer stuff

[darthkiwi]

Also, man, the royal family is really lucky that Mordack & Mannanan grew up in a household that emphasized the importance of regularly scheduled naptiime, aren't they?

THIS! Also, if the player is familiar with King's Quest III, he will be aware that Manannan goes to sleep every 25 minutes and might expect Mordack to do the same. It's far-fetched, but it's the only reason I can come up with for why waiting is a reasonable idea.

[Haids1987]

Also, man, the royal family is really lucky that Mordack & Mannanan grew up in a household that emphasized the importance of regularly scheduled naptiime, aren't they?

THIS! Also, if the player is familiar with King's Quest III, he will be aware that Manannan goes to sleep every 25 minutes and might expect Mordack to do the same.

I love naptime. Maybe that's what I REALLY love best about King's Quest.

[Bludshot]

Okay time for a nap roster

1. Mannanan
2. Mordack
3. That desert bandit
4. Various KQ7 trolls
5. That crystal dragon maybe? Has anyone played KQ7 recently to know?
6. Wow, KQ7 has a lot of sleeping, there is also that mystical talking rock you have to wake up.
7. On that note, and this might be cheating, but could Valanice count since she pioneers Inception her last chapter?
8. Dracula?
9. The clam on the isle of Wonder
10. Is the dragon from the original KQ sleeping when you first enter the cave?
11. The KQ giant who gets tired of chasing you and just sort of passes out

[Numbers]

KQ7 does have a lot of sleeping...and hell, we could make a crying roster at least as long as that list with just instances from KQ7 alone.

[drusain]

Okay time for a nap roster

1. Mannanan
2. Mordack
3. That desert bandit
4. Various KQ7 trolls
5. That crystal dragon maybe? Has anyone played KQ7 recently to know?
6. Wow, KQ7 has a lot of sleeping, there is also that mystical talking rock you have to wake up.
7. On that note, and this might be cheating, but could Valanice count since she pioneers Inception her last chapter?
8. Dracula?
9. The clam on the isle of Wonder
10. Is the dragon from the original KQ sleeping when you first enter the cave?
11. The KQ giant who gets tired of chasing you and just sort of passes out

KQ1 dragon just walks around breathing fire, but:

12. Sleeping powder in KQ3
13. Lolotte sleeps in her bed

[KatieHal]

Well, at least Lolotte was sleeping during the night, when most people sleep.

And Dracula, too, was sleeping during the day--when most vampires sleep. Actually, Dracula's sleeping status kinda depends on what mythology you're going off of. In some, vampires go outright comatose during the day and have no control over it. Some don't need sleep at all, in which case yeah, Drac was taking a nap.

And in the original story Dracula, he could actually walk around in daylight without dying or burning, he was just weaker in the day was all.

[Lambonius]

And in the original story Dracula, he could actually walk around in daylight without dying or burning, he was just weaker in the day was all.

He also sparkled, right?

[KatieHal]

 

[Bludshot]

I do recall that Not-Dracula from the AGD remake shows up in the daylight.  But they clearly made a lore mistake by not having him sparkle.

(Posted on: July 24, 2012, 04:10:25 PM)

Okay time for a nap roster

1. Mannanan
2. Mordack
3. That desert bandit
4. Various KQ7 trolls
5. That crystal dragon maybe? Has anyone played KQ7 recently to know?
6. Wow, KQ7 has a lot of sleeping, there is also that mystical talking rock you have to wake up.
7. On that note, and this might be cheating, but could Valanice count since she pioneers Inception her last chapter?
8. Dracula?
9. The clam on the isle of Wonder
10. Is the dragon from the original KQ sleeping when you first enter the cave?
11. The KQ giant who gets tired of chasing you and just sort of passes out

KQ1 dragon just walks around breathing fire, but:

12. Sleeping powder in KQ3
13. Lolotte sleeps in her bed

So that is at least one nap in every KQ, except MOE I think unless you count the stonification of humanity.

[Haids1987]

And in the original story Dracula, he could actually walk around in daylight without dying or burning, he was just weaker in the day was all.

He also sparkled, right?

Naps and crying. Awesome. Let's count the crying, shall we?

1. KQI: King Edward dies, so I'm sure there was some crying. It even says so in the Companion that Graham cries when the King passes.
2. KQII: Hmmmm. Let's say Valanice cries when Graham rescues her.
3. KQIII: The royal parents for sure lose it when Alexander returns home.
4. KQIV: Rosella in the throne room.
5. KQV: The reunion between the royal family
6. KQVI: Cassima cries in the Companion when she and Alexander are talking through the wall.
7. KQVII: Ugggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh. The comb. 'Nuff said.

I've never played MoE before, so someone else can fill in that blank.

[Bludshot]

Oh man I forgot about the crying comb.  Ugh she solves at least two of her problems through her automated crying procedure, such a bizarre solution.