So...I just finished marathon the Firefly-series...

[KatieHal]

There is definitely a central Scooby-gang-esque group of friends, with various talents and strengths, etc. Each episode has its own plot and focus contained in itself, and it's always adding to the longer-running plot arc of the season. And one of the characters on it has become possibly my most favorite vampire ever...I won't say who because *spoilers!* But the first two seasons are on Netflix, so I recommend checking it out especially if you've got Netflix.

[Blackthorne]

I'm one of those rare peeps who loves "Firefly" and "Serenity", but I can't stand "Buffy, The Vampire Slayer".  I just loathe it.  I like Joss Whedon, but that show tries so hard to be slick and the characters are just grating.  I don't care for it.

Joss Whedon, for me at least, is better in small doses.  He's that talented, smarmy dude you know who's always trying to out do and impress his hardest audience - himself.  It's nice when he doesn't get wrapped up in that, and does things out of joy.  I like it when he flies like that.   I honestly think that if Firefly had gone beyond 1 or 2 seasons, it would have started to decay.


Bt

[Delling]

Joss Whedon, for me at least, is better in small doses.  He's that talented, smarmy dude you know who's always trying to out do and impress his hardest audience - himself.  It's nice when he doesn't get wrapped up in that, and does things out of joy.  I like it when he flies like that.   I honestly think that if Firefly had gone beyond 1 or 2 seasons, it would have started to decay.

I think a lot of the humor in Whedon's series (which IMO are what make them good or in the case of Angel tolerable if that) actually comes from the other writers on them and the actors themselves. (It's that sort of George Lucas: Original vs. Prequel Star Wars dynamic.) So, assuming that Whedon didn't just do it all, Firefly probably would have stayed good for AT LEAST 3 seasons. Another thing to remember is that Whedon is a long-form writer, really, so a lot of what is in the movie was stuff that was already at least halfway imagined as dealing with River's issues, etc. We probably would have gotten that over at least one additional season, with more humor and gap filling episodes and character development and Book episodes along the way... seriously though, Book episodes.

I do however totally agree with that bolded bit (emphasis added, of course). Also, so, you like it when he's... a leaf on the wind?

[KatieHal]

Aw, dammit, now I need some kleenex..... 

We must never speak of that again!

I get that Whedon's not for everyone, and I'm not about to rant about it--but for me, I love his work through and through. Though Angel as a series was just so-so for me until Season 5, which was definitely it's best season. So, naturally, it's last. Meh!

Dollhouse was very hit-or-miss overall, IMO. And Dr. Horrible while I appreciate it's ending now, I really hated when I first saw it (liked the rest though).

[Blackthorne]

Heh. I am a Joss Whedon fan - I am.  I'm just not a sycophant who thinks everything he does is Gold.  Sometimes, he launches a brick.... but more times than not, his stuff is amazing.

I find that a lot of Whedon fans are overly sycophantic.

Bt

[KatieHal]

Oh, yeah, indeed--there are some folks like that. But then, there are folks like that in every fandom.

[crayauchtin]

Definitely, not everything was gold. Angel was... not his best effort. Good, I enjoyed it, but.... I fel it lacked a lot of the things I usually enjoy about Joss' writing -- chiefly, the way that he seems to usually have some kind of long term plan. Even as things built, I always felt that it was more like "Oh, remember when we did this? What if this happened because of it!" as opposed to "Let's do this so that this can happen and then this!" With Firefly I always got that feeling, and while Buffy had some moments where I was like "Okay, you obviously pulled that out of your butt" it usually felt like it was carefully constructed.

[Damar]

I completely agree with everything Blackthorne said.  Every word.  To me, Whedon is at his best when he does some witty dialogue.  And he's at his worst when he tries desperately to do witty dialogue.  Firefly has some examples of both.  Most of Jayne and Wash's lines are very witty and clever.  On the other hand there was one episode, with the bounty hunter, where Whedon was just trying way too hard to make the bounty hunter quirky and deep and it just grated on me so badly ("Am I a lion?  Well I do have a mighty roar."  Are you kidding me?  No one talks like this!)

Firefly as a series was fantastic and I thought Serenity perfectly wrapped everything up.  It explained the Reavers, it upped the stakes and added tragedy into the mix.  It was a really good movie and a great end to the series.

But Whedon just doesn't impress me a ton.  I liked Firefly and I liked Dr. Horrible.  I can't get into Buffy, nor do I really want to.  And I seriously can never forgive or forget that he wrote Alien Resurrection.  He can go die in a tire fire for that abomination as far as I'm concerned.

[Klitos]

He also worked on the original Toy Story movie IIRC.

Joss Whedon is one of the few writers out there that simply having his name attached to a series will make me go out and watch it without any more information than that. Because I LOVE Buffy and the superior Angel. [spoiler]To counter someone's point above that his shows are better when other people write a lot of them, I use season 4 of Buffy as an example of that being wrong. Crap big-bad, crap dialog and crap sub-plots, including but not limited to Buffy getting laid by Mr Nice Guy and then dumped and laughed at (very poorly done...) Willow's coming out as a Lesbian felt like a cheap plot point and just sort of happened for very little foreshadowing. (Note about this, they fixed the whole Lesbian thing in later seasons and it became a lot more natural and normal, but in S4 is was forced, rushed and felt like a ratings grab.)

[/spoiler]

[KatieHal]

Spoiler-tagged that, Klitos, since Nabby hasn't seen it yet.

In response...
[spoiler]I agree Season 4 was kinda weak. Not awful, but still didn't gel quite as well. And yeah, Riley was boring Mr. Nice Guy. As a person, I can appreciate Buffy getting a normal nice guy love interest and a solid, normal relationship that lasted a while with him. But as a consumer of entertainment, yeah, snore!

Re: Willow's sexuality, I don't know about that. It had some foreshadowing back in Season 3, and her and Tara's relationship built up over several episodes, and wasn't even a main plot for a while in those episodes, not until Oz returned and Willow finally realized her full feelings and came out. I didn't watch it when it aired, so I don't know if that hit during sweeps week, but juxtaposed with how these things happen now on shows (maybe one episode of build-up, on-screen makeout fest, and the person they make out/maybe sleep with is gone in a few episodes at most never to be heard from or seen again, along with the girl's brief experiment with being a lesbian), it doesn't feel like a ratings ploy to me. But hey, as with all things, YMMV. [/spoiler]

[inm8#2]

I feel like "Out of Gas" is where the show really takes off and becomes special.

I love Firefly as much as anyone, but I think a small part of its reputation is what the show could have been. It's only by the end of the season (series) where the relationships have really been established, which is true of any show.

Shame on Fox. Just reading the wikipedia and seeing all the demands Fox made makes me shudder. Goram fools!

[Mr_Nabby]

I feel like "Out of Gas" is where the show really takes off and becomes special.

I love Firefly as much as anyone, but I think a small part of its reputation is what the show could have been. It's only by the end of the season (series) where the relationships have really been established, which is true of any show.

Shame on Fox. Just reading the wikipedia and seeing all the demands Fox made makes me shudder. Goram fools!

Hear, Hear!

[crayauchtin]

Just airing the episodes out of order by itself is appalling, and would be enough to ruin a show. I swear Fox did it intentionally.