Author Topic: Tropes vs Women in Video Games  (Read 85700 times)

Offline Bludshot

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Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« on: December 06, 2012, 11:48:46 PM »
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/posts/242547

Just curious to see how folks here feel about this.  Personally I think it is great and a long overdue discussion to be had.  I wonder how adventure games compare to other genres in terms of these problematic tropes.
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Offline Neonivek

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2012, 02:35:25 AM »
I can to have great aversion to debates to the treatment and representation of women mostly because even among people who really focus on how women as mistreated there is no set understanding of what a woman even is.

Often to the extent where they are soo focused on the issue that they kind of forget what makes a good "character".

Which brings me to Bludshot's statement

Quote
these problematic tropes

Which is something I had to think about for a long time.

What makes female exploitation in videogames? Is it the clothes, physical features, or how they act? and I've come to the conclusion that it really is none of it.

It has nothing to do with the fact that there are scantly clad super buxomed sexually provocative women but rather both the saturation of these traits and the fact that they are used against the very characters they are often found on (AKA The Chainmail Bikini)

Since as we all know women who are beautiful, big breasted, and sexual exist in real life (and we cannot hold everything to real life). So the existance of those traits in games cannot be the problem in it of itself.

Nor can we assume that these traits are exclusive to being attractive to men. Since women are also attracted to attractive women.

Which my knowledge of this topic it makes any discussion on this issue terrible because they tend to fall into two categories

1) Women do not exist they are a fantasy unicorn
-As in it ignores that women like women
2) Women are chaste angels
-As in it ignores that women exist in all spectrums.

One video actually tried to discuss what made a good "Woman" character as in something seperate from just a good character and honestly... It failed. It failed because it failed to even define what a "Woman issue" was.

The only one I thought actually had a good point was where they discussed simply how women are potrayed. It said that women who are obviously sexual in personality and who are presented as such are fine (Like Bayonetta) but that the vast majority of women in videogames are rarely shown in a way that matches their character, often standing in odd sexual poses.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 02:39:43 AM by Neonivek »

Offline stika

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2012, 05:49:52 AM »
I have to say, I'm not a fan of her work, but more on that in a minute.

The first question I'd like to ask is why DID she need this kickstarter? she already had a youtube show called Tropes vs Women, so that already establishes she has the audio and video equipement, at best you could say she needed a capture card, but if that's the case she could've just gotten an easycapture card wich records at 480p and costs 20 bucks.


Is it to buy the consoles? No, in her video she shows that she already owns a PS3, Xbox 360 and a Wii.

Is it to buy the games? Then why the heck did she ask for $6,000? If she plans to target games like Bayonneta or the old Tomb Raider games they'll likely cost in a worst case scenario $30, heck, she can probably get them for $10.

As for her tropes vs women videos, I'm not a fan (I haven't seen her videogaming work yet), I saw three of her videos:
Suckerpunch
The Straw Feminist
The Lego for girls one

I agreed with the first two, but I strongly disagreed with the lego one, first off, she used a baseless assumption that lego are a 'boys' toy', I'd argue that legos are genderless, when I was in school plenty of girls loved legos, heck, my girlfriend still plays with them and she's 30 whereas I never really cared for them.

Then she basically implied lego of being sexist for creating the lego for girls line, in which toys basically ammounted to a mix of barbie/lego with lots of pink and paster colors thrown into it.

Yeah here's the thing, do you know why they did this? Because it sells! Girls toys are pink and cute and whatnot because they sell!

Do you think if Lego wanted to appeal to boys they wouldn't create a line with weapons and tanks and monsters and giant robots?

oh wait:


THEY ALREADY DID!

I don't remember anyone crying foul when that happened.

This is the main reason why I don't watch her videos, to me Anita Sarkeesian falls into one of her own tropes: The Straw Feminist.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 05:51:44 AM by stika »

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2012, 07:47:00 AM »
I'm very interested in what comes from the Kickstarter and I wish I'd heard about it before it was over so I could've donated. I checked out her videos on youtube and enjoyed those, as well.

Stika: How is she a Straw Feminist, exactly? The definition of that, from TVTropes, is:
Quote
A character whose feminism is drawn only for the purposes of either proving them wrong or ridiculing them.
More likely to fight an imaginary male conspiracy rather than actually helping disadvantaged women, often being an out-and-out misandrist with exaggerated beliefs.

Which is not the case here. Maybe you disagree on the Lego example (I happen to think she has valid points on it, personally), but overall this would imply that she's imagined all of this in the first place? Which isn't true. The tropes exist, the biases exist, and they merit analysis both in terms of what they represent and what messages they in turn send or reinforce. Additionally, her question & intent have nothing to do with "Why would Lego do this?" in terms of marketing and whether a product will sell. Sexist products of any kind WILL sell, that's a given. Her area of interest in the culture of these tropes.

As for the money: I don't imagine it's cheap or free to produce a professional series of videos as she does. Equipment, shooting, editing, buying the games themselves, possibly paying for people's time and work on the project--all of these things cost money. If this work is her fulltime job (I don't know if it is or isn't), then this is supporting her business. If someone posts an artistic creative project on Kickstarter, I don't tell them to go buy a start paint kit for $20 at their local craft store. And there are far more BS-filled Kickstarters out there--I could rail on about Penny Arcade's Kickstarter, for just one example. But this conversation isn't about the validity of what the money will be used on.

As Bludshot linked specifically to her post about the harassment she received during the Kickstarter, I'll address that. It also brings to mind the recent Twitter explosion of "#1reasonwhy", where women in the gaming industry tweeted about the treatment they've experienced in the industry. In both cases, a lot of really awful things came to light, things that leave me asking why the hell would anyone ever think it's okay to act in these ways? Sometimes people don't realize that's what they're doing, but that's not an excuse. In the case of what was done to Anita, it's just outright deplorable what people did. And the very fact that it happened does reinforce that yes, this is worth doing and researching, and yes, there is a problem here and a conversation that needs to happen. A change that needs to happen.

I think it's happening, really, and I'm glad of that.

I'm also very glad to say that I've personally never experienced any of the harassment or treatment that I hear horror stories about, either at any cons I've been to or at work. The guys and girls at Phoenix are awesome and respectful, and it's just one reason I love this team.

UPDATE:

Anita recently gave a TED talk about Online Harassment & Cyber Mobs, specifically focusing on what happened to her:  http://youtu.be/GZAxwsg9J9Q

Between that & information on her website, it's confirmed that yes, this is her fulltime work at this time, as well as having at least one other fulltime employee on it, her producer, as well as another part-time writer/reearcher. Also a number of systems (she lists 11), and over 300 games. So, yes, that the money asked for therefore was funneled into paying for business costs to support a specific project, which is indeed what Kickstarter funds are intended to be used for. More details on that can be found in her update here.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 08:19:28 AM by KatieHal »

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Offline Rosella

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2012, 09:50:44 AM »
...I literally just did a project on this and uploaded it to my YouTube account.

Odd, anyway.

First off, her Tropes vs Women series was sponsored by a magazine, so she DID need money for that. Every other point, I think Katie made. :P

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with a lot of the points she makes. For example, in one of her Tropes vs. Women videos, she makes a point about it being offensive that men refer to women as their "muse." You know, because women can make art too! We're not just here to be pretty and inspire art! Unless I missed something about her point, it's kind of ridiculous to be offended by the notion of "You have inspired me to make this wonderful thing." :P Regardless, she certainly has the right to make these videos and, more importantly, the right to start a Kickstarter without receiving death threats and veritable torrents of harassment.

And Neonivek, do you really not understand how making most women either buxom and provocative or innocent, chaste angels is kind of offensive? It doesn't matter if I were attracted to buxom, provocative women, that still doesn't make it any more okay to, more or less, represent an entire gender that way. I would be annoyed as anything if all of the male characters in games were swoon-worthy romance novel kinds of guys. Making people into people requires giving them some depth. It doesn't matter that some women are attracted to women or that women exist that are big-breasted and sexual. The fact is that women aren't generally being represented on a spectrum, just on one end.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 09:58:20 AM by Rosella »
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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2012, 10:12:52 AM »
*scurries over to watch Rosella's videos*

Also good points! I didn't really get into the whole aspect of why there IS an issue that needs to be addressed & discussed. As Rosella says, it comes from that far too often, female characters are portrayed in ways that are streeotyped far more often than male characters, from physical representation to being two-dimensional plot tools. Anita's videos are an exploration of these tropes--that they exist, that they continue to be used, that people often don't understand why they're incorrect, unfair, or even stereotypes that reinforce flawed ideas of what women are or should be like and how they should be treated in real life as well as in games/movies/TV shows/etc.

The muse argument--I also don't think there's an issue with being one's inspiration, but yes, I think her point was to that end of, why can't this female muse be making her own art and inspiring herself too?


(incidentally, Rosella, what kind of microphone do you use for recording?)

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Offline Rosella

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2012, 10:17:46 AM »
My point was that being someone's muse does not prohibit one from making things of their own. "You inspired me" does not carry the connotation of "And that is all you can possibly do to contribute to art." Maybe it was supposed to be an inspirational thing, but it came off as indignant that someone would say such a thing.

(Also, I just use the on-board mic near my webcam. I know it's awful, but I have another and that is about the same quality only more quiet.)
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Offline stika

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2012, 10:25:38 AM »
I'm very interested in what comes from the Kickstarter and I wish I'd heard about it before it was over so I could've donated. I checked out her videos on youtube and enjoyed those, as well.

Stika: How is she a Straw Feminist, exactly? The definition of that, from TVTropes, is:
Quote
A character whose feminism is drawn only for the purposes of either proving them wrong or ridiculing them.
More likely to fight an imaginary male conspiracy rather than actually helping disadvantaged women, often being an out-and-out misandrist with exaggerated beliefs.

Which is not the case here. Maybe you disagree on the Lego example (I happen to think she has valid points on it, personally), but overall this would imply that she's imagined all of this in the first place? Which isn't true. The tropes exist, the biases exist, and they merit analysis both in terms of what they represent and what messages they in turn send or reinforce. Additionally, her question & intent have nothing to do with "Why would Lego do this?" in terms of marketing and whether a product will sell. Sexist products of any kind WILL sell, that's a given. Her area of interest in the culture of these tropes.

I believe in the Lego case she was a straw feminist, their base product is as genderless as you can get, I don't see why should the fact that they added in two lines, one specifically for boys and one girls would be considered sexist, as said before, every company does this, the difference is that lego's main attraction is the genderless line.

As for the money: I don't imagine it's cheap or free to produce a professional series of videos as she does. Equipment, shooting, editing, buying the games themselves, possibly paying for people's time and work on the project--all of these things cost money. If this work is her fulltime job (I don't know if it is or isn't), then this is supporting her business. If someone posts an artistic creative project on Kickstarter, I don't tell them to go buy a start paint kit for $20 at their local craft store. And there are far more BS-filled Kickstarters out there--I could rail on about Penny Arcade's Kickstarter, for just one example. But this conversation isn't about the validity of what the money will be used on.

As I stated before, she already had a sucessful online show before initiating the kickstarter, so I ask again: what exactly was the money used for? she obviously already had all of the filming equipment.

and it wasn't for the consoles either as she already owned them, to me, her kickstarter felt more like a publicity stunt.

As for Penny Arcade, I don't read their comics, I didn't even know they had a kickstarter, so I can't comment on it

 

As Bludshot linked specifically to her post about the harassment she received during the Kickstarter, I'll address that. It also brings to mind the recent Twitter explosion of "#1reasonwhy", where women in the gaming industry tweeted about the treatment they've experienced in the industry. In both cases, a lot of really awful things came to light, things that leave me asking why the hell would anyone ever think it's okay to act in these ways? Sometimes people don't realize that's what they're doing, but that's not an excuse. In the case of what was done to Anita, it's just outright deplorable what people did. And the very fact that it happened does reinforce that yes, this is worth doing and researching, and yes, there is a problem here and a conversation that needs to happen. A change that needs to happen.

I think it's happening, really, and I'm glad of that.
To be honest, this goes both ways, obviously the hate on Anita was spiteful, childish and tremendously stupid, but let's not pretend she doesn't have her fair share of raging followers. I remember seeing a video response to one of Anita's videos in which it was a woman simply saying "I disagree", she was obviously joking, but that didn't stop Anita's supporters from bashing and insulting this other woman for months on end.

I'm also very glad to say that I've personally never experienced any of the harassment or treatment that I hear horror stories about, either at any cons I've been to or at work. The guys and girls at Phoenix are awesome and respectful, and it's just one reason I love this team.

UPDATE:

Anita recently gave a TED talk about Online Harassment & Cyber Mobs, specifically focusing on what happened to her:  http://youtu.be/GZAxwsg9J9Q

Between that & information on her website, it's confirmed that yes, this is her fulltime work at this time, as well as having at least one other fulltime employee on it, her producer, as well as another part-time writer/reearcher. Also a number of systems (she lists 11), and over 300 games. So, yes, that the money asked for therefore was funneled into paying for business costs to support a specific project, which is indeed what Kickstarter funds are intended to be used for. More details on that can be found in her update here.

I'm not sure how much of that I agree with, but it's not something I can prove one way or another

Offline snabbott

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2012, 10:27:31 AM »
Regardless, she certainly has the right to make these videos and, more importantly, the right to start a Kickstarter without receiving death threats and veritable torrents of harassment.
This response to her project is enough to demonstrate that there is a problem. I would assume (or at least hope) that this was done by a very vocal minority, but still... it's disturbing that there are people out there that think that kind of behavior is acceptable. >:(

I haven't really done enough gaming to be able to address the issue of treatment of women in games, but based on the fact that gaming has traditionally been a guy thing, I can imagine... I think it's a good thing that it's becoming more mainstream for girls to be into gaming. :)

And Neonivek, do you really not understand how making most women either buxom and provocative or innocent, chaste angels is kind of offensive? ... The fact is that women aren't generally being represented on a spectrum, just on one end.
Well, two extremes; just not the middle 95%  (made-up number :P). I think this is probably somewhat true of male characters, as well, though again, men are probably the primary target audience (i.e. a character that men wish they could be). Since much of entertainment is escapist, it seems like it would be difficult to make "normal" characters widely appealing. :-\

I have to agree with stika on the pink Legos, though. I don't see a problem with marketing to both males and females. "Pink" may be a girl stereotype, but if it sells, that's all the company really cares about. I guess you could argue that it's perpetuating stereotypes, but it's hard to fault a corporation for not "rocking the boat" at the expense of its continued success. (Note: I've done some reading, but I have yet to actually watch her videos.)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 10:33:46 AM by snabbott »

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Offline stika

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2012, 10:29:12 AM »
...I literally just did a project on this and uploaded it to my YouTube account.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with a lot of the points she makes. For example, in one of her Tropes vs. Women videos, she makes a point about it being offensive that men refer to women as their "muse." You know, because women can make art too! We're not just here to be pretty and inspire art! Unless I missed something about her point, it's kind of ridiculous to be offended by the notion of "You have inspired me to make this wonderful thing." Tongue Regardless, she certainly has the right to make these videos and, more importantly, the right to start a Kickstarter without receiving death threats and veritable torrents of harassment.






So far I only saw the first video, I liked what I saw and I agree with all of it. Good luck with your series, I'll watch the rest of them tonight when I have more free time :)

And I agree that there is a huge gender issue problem in both gaming and gamers that need be adressed ASAP, but what can I say, I am just not a fan of Anita's work, I feel that in one short episode, the web show "extra credit" was able to tap into the subject better and more tastefully then Anita would, though I'm only judging this by her feminist frequency videos


EDIT: my bad, it was actually two extra credits episodes

True Female characters
harrassment
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 10:41:27 AM by stika »

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2012, 10:38:20 AM »
The Lego thing--I think that actually IS exactly her point. Legos ARE a genderless product, and that's a great thing about them. So why do they need to be gendered at all? And then the fact that the "girl" Legos were all pink and emphasized a lot of stereotypes just added to the problem.


True, games (and other media) are escapist. And true, the stereotypes don't apply ONLY to women by any means. But the ones that show up on female characters are far more often the problematic ones--the buxom sexpot, the damsel in distress, the virgin or the w****, the woman who's only focus is a man, etc. Portrayals that lack dimension and that marginalize the characters are far more prevalent for females than males.

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Offline stika

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2012, 10:40:49 AM »
The Lego thing--I think that actually IS exactly her point. Legos ARE a genderless product, and that's a great thing about them. So why do they need to be gendered at all? And then the fact that the "girl" Legos were all pink and emphasized a lot of stereotypes just added to the problem.

Why not? I mean it's not like they're forcing you to buy them, why wouldn't you want the extra option? I'd understand your point if they were phasing out the old genderless products, but to my knowledge, the classic lego line is still the most commercially sucessful

As I said, Lego created the Bionicle series years before the lego for 'girls' line, Bionicle was clearly targeted at boys, yet no one complained, so why are we complaining now?


True, games (and other media) are escapist. And true, the stereotypes don't apply ONLY to women by any means. But the ones that show up on female characters are far more often the problematic ones--the buxom sexpot, the damsel in distress, the virgin or the w****, the woman who's only focus is a man, etc. Portrayals that lack dimension and that marginalize the characters are far more prevalent for females than males.
That we can both agree on
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 11:04:44 AM by stika »

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2012, 11:11:34 AM »
...and now I've watched her Lego videos, and I have to agree with her. I don't have a problem with pink and purple Legos (and there's really no reason those have to be "girl" colors), but the fact that the girl Lego universe is all beauty salons and housewives is pretty messed up. It's like they suddenly decided they needed to fix their history of marketing mainly to boys by introducing Lego Barbie dolls. :-\ She's right that this strategy largely segregates boys' and girls' play into stereotypical roles. I still say that they are following the money - and it's easier to cater to existing stereotypes than to try to go against them - but I think they could do a lot better than this.

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Offline stika

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2012, 11:26:25 AM »
...I literally just did a project on this and uploaded it to my YouTube account.


just saw the rest.

Sexism in Gaming Culture: Yeah, back in the arcade days the mood was very competitive, to the point where bad players were ostracized, though that could also be related to the fact that said arcades were frequented by kids in school, who are more prone to forming gangs or cliques. I think the issue here is being able to draw the line between harassment and unhealthy competition and that is actually a lot harder then it seems, for example, the XBL message you showed can be used for guys as well, so I'm not sure if that particular example is 'sexism', or just 'harassment' . Regardless, I hope you reported the guy :P

Final Thoughts: I wish the episode were longer :P

Sexism in Gaming Culture: I laughed so hard when you called that youtube idiots' 'advice' valid xD

As for Assassin's creed... I never played any of the games so I can't really comment on it, as for what games can appeal to female gamers, I like to think that the concept has been evolving... slowly, but evolving, yes there are some pretty lame titles out there like the imagine series, though luckilly some other games like Terraria, Plants vs. Zombies and Portal were commercially successful partly due to the female demographic, not saying we're anything close to being 'there', but I do think we made some progress





(Posted on: December 07, 2012, 02:23:03 PM)


...and now I've watched her Lego videos, and I have to agree with her. I don't have a problem with pink and purple Legos (and there's really no reason those have to be "girl" colors),

even in that regard I think she mis-represented the product
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 11:31:12 AM by stika »

Offline snabbott

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2012, 11:39:05 AM »
Sexism in Gaming Culture: I laughed so hard when you called that youtube idiots' 'advice' valid xD
XD

...and now I've watched her Lego videos, and I have to agree with her. I don't have a problem with pink and purple Legos (and there's really no reason those have to be "girl" colors),

even in that regard I think she mis-represented the product
She actually showed the picture from that article in the video. I think her point was that even though you *can* make cool stuff like that, girls aren't being encouraged to do so. In the same way, even though you can use the girls' and boys' sets together, they aren't being marketed in a way that encourages it.

Regardless, I think we can agree that the whole gender equality thing is more than one company can fix. It's not going to get fixed unless people work on it, though.

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Offline stika

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2012, 11:43:25 AM »
Sexism in Gaming Culture: I laughed so hard when you called that youtube idiots' 'advice' valid xD
XD

...and now I've watched her Lego videos, and I have to agree with her. I don't have a problem with pink and purple Legos (and there's really no reason those have to be "girl" colors),

even in that regard I think she mis-represented the product
She actually showed the picture from that article in the video. I think her point was that even though you *can* make cool stuff like that, girls aren't being encouraged to do so. In the same way, even though you can use the girls' and boys' sets together, they aren't being marketed in a way that encourages it.

Regardless, I think we can agree that the whole gender equality thing is more than one company can fix. It's not going to get fixed unless people work on it, though.
she did? I'll admit I haven't seen her videos in quite a while, so my bad on that.

And it's true that the 'girls' line doesn't encourage that, but as I said before, if that's the problem, then get the gender neutral line :P

Overall, I think these lines were a nice decision by Lego as they basically gave you more options

Offline Bludshot

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2012, 05:05:00 PM »
she did? I'll admit I haven't seen her videos in quite a while, so my bad on that.

And it's true that the 'girls' line doesn't encourage that, but as I said before, if that's the problem, then get the gender neutral line :P

Overall, I think these lines were a nice decision by Lego as they basically gave you more options

I think the issue is that Lego is actively putting out something to girls saying what is expected of their gender, while thankfully that messgae doesn't carry through all of their products, the gendered ones are still sending a dated message.

I'm looking forward to her video about the few female videogame characters that are actually well done, I guess I'm hoping that there will be more than just a tiny handful, or at the very least there is a trend of female characters improving as the industry gets older.
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Offline stika

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2012, 05:38:02 PM »
she did? I'll admit I haven't seen her videos in quite a while, so my bad on that.

And it's true that the 'girls' line doesn't encourage that, but as I said before, if that's the problem, then get the gender neutral line :P

Overall, I think these lines were a nice decision by Lego as they basically gave you more options

I think the issue is that Lego is actively putting out something to girls saying what is expected of their gender, while thankfully that messgae doesn't carry through all of their products, the gendered ones are still sending a dated message.

I'm looking forward to her video about the few female videogame characters that are actually well done, I guess I'm hoping that there will be more than just a tiny handful, or at the very least there is a trend of female characters improving as the industry gets older.
see, but then we go back to one of my original points: howcome no one complained when Lego launched their bionicle line? It was launched years before the 'girls' line and it was undoubtedly marketed at boys

Offline Neonivek

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2012, 07:46:47 PM »
Quote
And Neonivek, do you really not understand how making most women either buxom and provocative or innocent, chaste angels is kind of offensive? It doesn't matter if I were attracted to buxom, provocative women, that still doesn't make it any more okay to, more or less, represent an entire gender that way. I would be annoyed as anything if all of the male characters in games were swoon-worthy romance novel kinds of guys. Making people into people requires giving them some depth. It doesn't matter that some women are attracted to women or that women exist that are big-breasted and sexual. The fact is that women aren't generally being represented on a spectrum, just on one end

I did not expect this response... Especially since frankly I delt with it earlier by saying that the existance of these tropes are not offensive to women in any way but that the saturation (too many), use against character, and use against story of these tropes is what makes them harmful.

The key is if these traits fit the character and do not rub off as blanket statements for women as a whole.

Which is the thing I had to come to terms with because I sort of realised that many of the most sexualised characters were also greatly attractive to women, afterall an attractive smart intelligent strong woman who gets to have fun in a while is not a hard towards a female audiance, and that the issue isn't so much that women are in these roles so much that these are the only roles they seem to play.

As well the problem isn't the complete opposite either. The Pure woman in a long flowing dress who likes to cook and hates getting her hands dirty (or perhaps she likes cleaning) isn't a problem either in it of itself. Nothing is wrong with a character who exibits those characteristics. They are attractive because that is an attractive character.

Why do I even bother? because I had to look at many female characters and see what was really wrong with them and noticed that even though they fell into these steriotypes many of them just worked as characters on their own. As well there were others who had these very same traits forced upon them to their detriment (Ohh dear goodness what did they do to you Sophitia?)

Oddly enough I think many other sources did a better job of sort of understanding that these issues are not about reversing them entirely but instead moving it away from oversaturation and exploitation.

Which is where we get to

Quote
It doesn't matter if I were attracted to buxom, provocative women, that still doesn't make it any more okay to, more or less, represent an entire gender that way

Who gets to really? Who gets to define the entire gender. The issue is that as a whole we get to. Not the fact that anyone gets to use women in that way.

The fact that you are attracted to buxom provocative women is very important because it means that they arn't nessisarily "male attraction only" traits.

It really is a question about what is a woman and the answer is "anything".

Mind you this doesn't exclude the existance of tropes that are unjustifyable... but still.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 07:49:27 PM by Neonivek »

Offline Bludshot

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Re: Tropes vs Women in Video Games
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2012, 07:50:10 PM »
she did? I'll admit I haven't seen her videos in quite a while, so my bad on that.

And it's true that the 'girls' line doesn't encourage that, but as I said before, if that's the problem, then get the gender neutral line :P

Overall, I think these lines were a nice decision by Lego as they basically gave you more options

I think the issue is that Lego is actively putting out something to girls saying what is expected of their gender, while thankfully that messgae doesn't carry through all of their products, the gendered ones are still sending a dated message.

I'm looking forward to her video about the few female videogame characters that are actually well done, I guess I'm hoping that there will be more than just a tiny handful, or at the very least there is a trend of female characters improving as the industry gets older.
see, but then we go back to one of my original points: howcome no one complained when Lego launched their bionicle line? It was launched years before the 'girls' line and it was undoubtedly marketed at boys

The girl toy line deals with suggestions on what a girls hobbies should be in day to day life.  I don't think anyone is suggesting boys should grow up to be killer robots.
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