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Tropes vs Women in Video Games

Started by Bludshot, December 06, 2012, 11:48:46 PM

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KatieHal

Quote from: Neonivek on December 20, 2012, 12:19:25 AM
The Fatal Frames...

Oddly enough in an interview they said they thought of having a male protagonist but said that a female one would be better since she is more helpless.

While a part of me agrees in that people expect a woman to attempt to do things by just destroying stuff with her hands... It does get a bit uttarly stupid in the Third, the only one I own, when both female protagonists refuse to push heavy objects. (Oddly enough the only male protagonist is actually the weakest psychically and is thus able to hide from ghosts because of it.)

Then again only one of the protagonists, of the three, is willing to duck down into small places. All the others will refuse.

So many things in that make grrrr.... mostly the part about what they said in an interview.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Neonivek

I wrote that wrong. It was that people did NOT expect a woman to do things by just destroying stuff with her hands.

Mind you I got the impression you did get my true intent correctly.

If you want what they said exactly it was closer that a woman is less likely to try to get out of situations physically. Where if there was a locked door a man might break it down and a woman would find the key.

I just translated that to helpless.

KatieHal

Ah, I see--gotcha. Yeah, not not destroying things with one's hand does not equal helpless. :)

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

stika

on a sidenote: Everyone who likes scary games should play the first fatal frame game.

It's short, but one of the best in its genre imo

Neonivek

Quote from: stika on December 20, 2012, 06:49:01 PM
on a sidenote: Everyone who likes scary games should play the first fatal frame game.

It's short, but one of the best in its genre imo

I do agree with people who say the game would be VASTLY improved if they included an option to remove the point counters.

Bludshot

Quote from: crayauchtin on December 19, 2012, 10:23:40 PM
Honestly, I think the only time I've ever seen a woman on a game box cover who was *not* scantily clad or sexualized is that Alice in Wonderland horror video game.... never played it, just saw the box. Little blonde Alice..... with blood all on her.

There aren't many.  In recent memory I can only think of Mirror's Edge and Final Fantasy XIII.
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

Neonivek

I hear that apperantly Hitman Absolution actually TRIED to make controversy with their leather wearing gun weilding sexy nuns... which I doubt worked.

Hypersexualised women in videogames for the sake of hypersexualisation in a possition where their sexualisation actually works against them? par for the course in videogames unfortunately

It is a shame that glamorising women often leads to shamelessness as an "attractive" woman is often potrayed as someone not meant to be taken seriously or with any respect (a Bimbo for example)

Yet men in the same role tend to at least command respect since the steriotypes don't leave much room for much else.

Which I think is one of the major ways in which male and female roles differ when it comes to sexualisation is that male sexualisation and female sexualisation do not come with the same trade offs because of how we view and steriotype each sexualisation (Hense why "Manwhore" is barely an insult and "w****" is an outright one. Hense the term "playboy")

Yet it could just be lazyness in writing as well as male perspective. I should formalise my thinking later on this subject about sexualisation differences between male and female roles and see if there is a difference between them or if it is "just" (as in only) that highly sexualised female roles tend to be written for males for obvious reasons.

*I really shouldn't have made this post while I was this sleepy. I HOPE this post makes sense when I read it later*

Bludshot

Thought I'd give the thread a bump since the first video is out, and it is about the Damsel in Distress, which I think was the last thing being discussed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

Neonivek

Well I'll ask this for quality assurance since listening to sexists trying not to be sexist is depressing.

Does the video say that Damsels in Distress are inherantly bad?

KatieHal

That's sort of a narrow question, actually, and it feels like you're fishing for what you know the answer already is. So, I'll just say watch the video if you're curious.

To summarize without answering that, this is actually, it turns out, only Part 1 of her look at the trope, focusing on classic 80's and 90's game for the most part, and the bigger franchises. It doesn't say anything that hasn't been said before, but establishes a touchstone for the discussion. Part 2 will focus on games in the last ten years, as well as games that have flipped around the trope (I was happy to see a screenshot of Elaine Marley in there!).

I was hoping for some more new insights or thoughts on the whole thing, so here's hoping Part 2 has more of that. There were some interesting bits of video game history in Part 1 that I was unaware of, though.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Neonivek

#210
QuoteThat's sort of a narrow question, actually

It is a question that instantly assertains the quality involved here and I would go as far as to say that it is the single easiest question one could ask.

As well I don't know the answer because I have heard good debates on these issues and bad ones and thus I am asking if this is a "Good program" or a "Bad one diguised as a good one".

And Here is the thing. I am only curious if the answer to my question is of a certain type. Otherwise I absolutely do not want to listen to drivel because I don't like to listen to sexism because I am really tired of it.

If the answer IS however not sexist then I am very interested.

Though let me break it down for you for the two answers I am expecting

1) Damsels are not inherantly a negative thing but rather the use and abuse as well the limit roles of women is what makes damsels a bad thing as well as how it tends to be handled within these works of fiction and how it is used against character and narrative: The video is worth listening to because it understands that the issues surrounding the use of women in videogames is not the fact that these roles exist but that they are overused, similar, abusive, and often moving outside them has negative connotations as well as how they are used within the medium.

2) Damsels are inherantly negative: Not worth listening to. The Creator fails to understand the purpose of the role and roles in general and in many ways gender. It is a common trap people fall into when discussing this topic and one I spent a long time in but later fell out of.

I am hoping it is in the first category. I am not going to fluff up what I said to sound less sexist mind you mostly because I don't want to.

Admittingly there is a C

C) Nothing is actually said this is all an exploration and the conclusions are up to you: Also worth listening to.

...

QuoteI was happy to see a screenshot of Elaine Marley in there

Hey! She isn't a Damsel! Guybrush is!

Thats the joke!

KatieHal

Okay--that's more of an interesting question, then. I had the impression that you were going to possibly write off the whole thing based simply on a yes or no answer.

I'd say it's more what you describe in (1) than (2)--the trope itself doesn't ruin a game, but is problematic and overused and abused quite a lot in video games, and it then examines some specific and very big titles where this happens.

I know, that's what's awesome about Elaine! Actually, throughout the series, she and Guybrush take turns each being the damsel and the rescuer, really. But I love her for it. :)

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Balinaeri

I believe she actually says in the final minute that having a Damsel in Distress does not necessarily make the game bad. Take from that what you will.

I only watched part one. I'm not sure if any of the other parts are available yet. There appear to be other episodes in the series. I may watch a couple.

I was disappointed that she failed to mention Tomb Raider at all. I realize that it counters her point, but is worth mentioning if only because of the sheer power of that franchise.  It's only fair of her to mention that a) there are counter-examples, and b) there have even been successful ones.

Heck, even in Leisure Suit Larry, probably the most misogynistic game ever, you get to play as Passionate Patty sometimes.

I was also disappointed that, as Katie points out, she didn't mention really anything new. There were some examples that I had not seen, including a couple that should be repulsive to any thinking person, male or female, IMHO.

I found her examples of remakes troubling as well. I understand the point in that it emphasizes this role to a whole new generation, which is problematic. However, we are in a period where retro/remakes are popular. And would a remake of Prince of Persia without the Damsel be appealing? It wouldn't be a remake then. It would be a sequel. And that'd be fine. If you wanted to make a Princess of Persia, that'd be fine too. Although hard to believe considering the role of women in the Middle East. In any case, however, neither of these would be remakes, which is the popular item today.

It got me to thinking about my own favorite games. I've never been a fan of Mario...don't like platform games truthfully. And I played about 30 minutes of one Zelda game and was immensely bored.

But I've played both Laura Bow mysteries, and liked them at the time. (Replayed them a couple years ago...dint' think they aged well, but that's another story)

My favorite character in Street Fighter was Chun-Li. And yes, part of that is because of her sexy legs, but also I just liked her special moves and found her more fun to play than anyone else.

Gabriel Knight has some of the Damsel in Distress bits, but in the later episodes, Grace ends up rescuing him just as often as he rescues her.

At least until QfGV, it doesn't really hit the QfG series. Yes, we find out in QfGIV that Erana is imprisoned, but that's right after dealing with the most un-damsel-like Katrina, who sacrifices herself for our hero. The Rusalka is a DnD, but that's a minor quest that you can't even do unless you're a Paladin (grrr). And I suppose Tanya could be considered one as well, although I don't tend to think of children that way. In QfGI, you have to rescue both Elsa and her brother, and those are separate quests. In addition, there are strong females in both QfGII and QfGIII. One of them even teaches you to fight.


I'm very much looking forward to the Heroine's Quest game that's coming, and of course there's good old Cognition and Erica Reed.

So, I think I'm ok. I won't be passing these archaisms on via the video game. My favorites appear to be safe from her searching eye.
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

Bludshot

My impression was that she said it wasn't inherently a bad thing, but in the vast majority of cases it poses a problem, but she isn't done covering it and she is going to cover the examples were it is okay or even used in a clever way, hence why she had the Governor of Monkey Island shown near the end (I forget her name).
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

KatieHal

Yeah, Part 2, which covers more modern games, is yet to be posted. But she has previous video on tropes in (mostly) other media: books, movies, TV, toys. Video Games is the new series.

The remakes thing is a good point--nostalgia's cool, yay! But yeah, it does also mean reintroducing those tropes from 20 years ago.

It also makes me think adventure games are kind of the black sheep in a lot of ways--never having been AS big as games like Mario and Zelda, they both could get away with new & different things (in this example, active female protags/rescuers/heroes), and are also not quite as recognized for those contributions.

And while her points and examples were nothing new to me (or us, it seems), they will be for a lot of people who watch that video who aren't as familiar with video games. So, yeah, I'm fine with her establishing that baseline of knowledge in the first video for those who are new to the discussion. But I do hope Part 2 brings something new.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Lambonius

#215
[MOD EDIT] Katie made this funnier for me.



You're right.  That is funnier.  Thanks, Katie!

Neonivek

#216
Trust me she will get to Lara croft it is just that... well... Lara isn't a Damsel in anyway and to my knowledge has never fallen prone to being a damsel except in her latest game that has some unfortunate implications.

Mind you Lara's reboot is supposed to lay on the "helpless poor little girl" aspect to make the player want to save her. The implications of turning what was essentially one of the very few action heroines who wasn't made vulnerable because "Women are vulnerable little kittens" doesn't sit right with me.

Though I am sure I am just projecting because of "Other M" and the absolutely terrible things it did to Samus.

QuoteI know, that's what's awesome about Elaine! Actually, throughout the series, she and Guybrush take turns each being the damsel and the rescuer, really.

It wasn't until the fourth game that Guybrush actually got to save Elaine from something he himself didn't do to her and the third game where he legitimately saves her from something (admittingly danger he himself put her in out of stupidity).

Usually it is Guybrush noticing that Elaine is in danger and going to rescue her... only to find that either
A) She rescued herself
or
B) He ruined her plan to save the day.

and it usually involves Elaine saving Guybrush at least once.

KatieHal

Yeah, I've not played the second MI, so I don't know what happens in that one yet, but he definitely did some saving MI3 and ToMI. Though in ToMI, I did highly enjoy how she frequently was off doing her own thing, totally fine, had it handled. It was pretty cool. :) One of these days, I'll actually put together an Elaine Marley costume for Halloween. Oh, that too--she's still Elaine Marley, not Threepwood! I like that they never changed her last name even after they got married. :)


Yeah, I've heard some things about how more recent games have screwed with the awesome of Lara Croft and Samus. Me, I personally kinda hate how they also made Samus's outfits sexier and sexier over time once everyone knew she was a woman. It felt cheap to me--like one of the things that was cool in the first place was that the suit was totally genderless (I know, I know, the graphics at the time weren't at all what they are now, so it wasn't exactly an option, but still).


And I do agree with Sarkeesian that Zelda as Sheik is awesome, and deserving of her own kickass adventure.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Bludshot

Quote from: KatieHal on March 07, 2013, 07:51:26 PMIt also makes me think adventure games are kind of the black sheep in a lot of ways--never having been AS big as games like Mario and Zelda, they both could get away with new & different things (in this example, active female protags/rescuers/heroes), and are also not quite as recognized for those contributions.

In some aspects I see what you mean, KQIV was successful with a majority female cast of characters, without out being branded as girls game or the like. 

It is also bears pointing out the KQ series has had three damsels in distress, Valanice in KQ2, Rosella in KQ3, and Cassima gets the damsel treatment twice in 5 and 6. :P

[spoiler]On the subject though a "good" damsel in distress might be Grace Nakamura in Gabriel Knight, since she is a character in her own right and doesn't get kidnapped by the bad guys until the end of the game.  Not just as the video states, a goal to be reached.[/spoiler]
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

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