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Tropes vs Women in Video Games

Started by Bludshot, December 06, 2012, 11:48:46 PM

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darthkiwi

The counter-video makes some decent points but doesn't seem to realise that there is a difference between a game or film portraying something, and that thing happening in real life.

I can't think of a decent example, but let's say there's a film in which a woman gives up her career to have kids and is super happy she did and looks up to her husband who's the breadwinner. In real life there are women who don't particularly want a career but who do want a family, and want to stay at home all day looking after their children. This is fine. But when this is portrayed in a film - and when this becomes the normal, go-to way to portray women in films - this creates a perception that women should give up their jobs and become housewives, and that they're weird and immoral if they don't.

So when he says that these games argue that doctors shouldn't help people? Nah.
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Lambonius

Well, the guy clearly thinks that feminism in general is stupid, and comes at the topic from the attitude that he's going to try and find as much fault with her arguments as possible.  In so doing, he makes a few really stupid points and comes off as whiny and bitter, which really undermines the value of his video as a "serious" counter to Anita's.  However, like I said, he does highlight a number of actual flaws in her research and arguments, and for that, this video has some merit.

Blackthorne

Quotewhen this is portrayed in a film - and when this becomes the normal, go-to way to portray women in films - this creates a perception that women should give up their jobs and become housewives, and that they're weird and immoral if they don't.

Does it create the perception, or is that just someone's insight?

Also, I hate the "shaming" of women who choose to stay home, keep the house and raise a family.  There's just as much nobility in that as going out and having a career. 

Also, for men, there's just as much nobility in doing the same thing - staying home, keeping the house and raising the family.

People put a lot of features onto tropes that don't always truly exist - it's just their own warped perspective on it.


Bt
"You've got to keep one eye looking over your shoulder
you know it's going to get harder and harder as you
get older - but in the end you'll pack up, fly down south, hide your head in the sand.  Just another sad old man, all alone and dying of cancer." - Dogs, Pink Floyd.

Neonivek

#323
Quotelet's say there's a film in which a woman gives up her career to have kids and is super happy she did and looks up to her husband who's the breadwinner.

I have heard of that movie. It was done to make the boss seem evil because she doesn't respect her decision to leave her high profile career.

I also seen an episode of the Cosby Show that dealt with it. It concluded that there is nothing wrong with being a housewife (Mind you female main character in the show has ever been a housewife to my knowledge).

The ONLY reverse I've seen is a movie where a woman ends up with her sisters baby and tries to essentially live the "Wholesome family picture" with just her and her new baby, but she was a working woman at heart and starts a baby food buisness. I left a LOT of details out, important details, but I only wanted to list the exception I heard of.

Quote.  In so doing, he makes a few really stupid points and comes off as whiny and bitter

I think the real issue is that he doesn't have as much "counter arguements" as he thinks he does. Notice how much time he spends on single points that could have been concluded in single sentences.

As well I can pick out times he doesn't understand her points either.

For example he mistakes strong in the essay (that is likely refering to physical strength) to strong in her talking about Dinosaur Planet (which is refering to someone mentally and competently strong).

It is moments like these that I though the video was rubbish for the most part but the few good points he had concerns me.

Balinaeri

Mona Lisa Smile has some characters just like that. In it, Julia Roberts teaches at an all girl college in the 50s. She's the new "liberal influence". She has trouble with the fact that some of her students just want to be moms and wives. Julia Stiles character ends up being a huge disappointment to her by doing just that.

Of course, she does have her influences. Kirsten Dunst goes from not caring at all about education or career to being a career-minded professional.

Also good performances by Maggie Gyllenhaal and Gennifer Goodwin.

The movie is so-so. It comes off as exceptionally preachy at times. But it's interesting in that in the end, the characters all end up making their own choices and not being shoe-horned into predetermined roles.


On the subject of staying home with the kids, I heard a motivational speaker say this once, and it kind of stuck with me. He said, "Most women want to stay home with their kids, and we men know that. Why do we know it? Because we want to stay home with the kids, too."

He got boos after the first part, then shocked looks and muted applause after the second. Anyway, he did it deliberately to get you to think about what it is that you really want (whether you're a man or a woman), and not to settle for what others tell you that you want.

Finally, tangentially, I can't help but wonder what Anita would think of this game: http://scarletblade.aeriagames.com/ (parts of the website are NSFW)

Hey, at least they aren't damsels in distress. ;-)

Yes, I'm joking, a bit, to lighten the mood. She'd hate the game, and well she should. This is a totally different trope than Damsels in Distress, and one I hope she explores. I don't know a witty turn of phrase for it, but it's when women characters can only be heroes if they're also sex objects. Think some of the Lara Croft games, only imagine her doing her schtick while wearing bikini-mail, or even less.
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

stika

Oh wow, that part where he takes Anita's master thesis and shows it contradicts with her video, admittedly her words in the thesis may have been taken out of context, but still... yikes

Bludshot

Okay I am only 2 minutes into that video and already it is giving me a headache, can someone give me a ballpark about when the "good" parts start?  So far this video has completely missed the point.
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"Alack! The heads do not die!"

Lambonius

Quote from: Bludshot on March 18, 2013, 10:15:02 AM
Okay I am only 2 minutes into that video and already it is giving me a headache, can someone give me a ballpark about when the "good" parts start?  So far this video has completely missed the point.

The second half is better.  Pretty much in general, once he gets off of the stupid "damsel punching baddie in the nuts" thing, his analysis of some of the real flaws in her research gets going.  Like I said, it's not perfect, and he comes off as whiny and spiteful.  But there are a few good points.

stika

Quote from: Lambonius on March 18, 2013, 10:53:00 AM
Quote from: Bludshot on March 18, 2013, 10:15:02 AM
Okay I am only 2 minutes into that video and already it is giving me a headache, can someone give me a ballpark about when the "good" parts start?  So far this video has completely missed the point.

The second half is better.  Pretty much in general, once he gets off of the stupid "damsel punching baddie in the nuts" thing, his analysis of some of the real flaws in her research gets going.  Like I said, it's not perfect, and he comes off as whiny and spiteful.  But there are a few good points.
I think this is the major problem with her detractors, most of them come off as Whiny, spiteful or as if they're pushing an agenda (usually said agenda being to discredit her), which is a shame because many raise valid points, but they can't seem to set their feelings aside

Bludshot

Skipped ahead to about the 10 minute mark.  It is still pretty clear the point is flying over this guy's head.

Continuing on I am seeing the same old tired arguments, there are more male characters because of the market demand, judging her appearance, etc. 

Everything about this video is on par with your average youtube comment argument.
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

snabbott

#330
Yeah - he completely missed the point about objectification. :-\

Quote from: stika on March 18, 2013, 07:39:59 AM
Oh wow, that part where he takes Anita's master thesis and shows it contradicts with her video, admittedly her words in the thesis may have been taken out of context, but still... yikes
That's from a different video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI

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stika

yeah, I saw that video, that was the video I commented here before (though I never actually posted it).

I do feel he raises some good points, but he's obviously pushing an Agenda, though according to him, so is Anita... and he might be right

Bludshot

What do you consider his good points?
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

Neonivek

Well finally seen Anita's video earlier then I planned too (due to heaping criticism) and in the end...

I agreed with almost everything she said, while I think her examples are weak I don't really have too much to say.

Bludshot

She stuck to older game examples for the first half of the video, part 2 will cover more modern examples.  Plus I think she was going for widely recognized cases.
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

Bludshot

Thought I'd bump this thread since her next video is out. It is a downer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqs

I enjoyed this one more than the last since it deals with a lot of the faults of dark n gritty modern games, with many of them trying to be mature but in the end coming off as anything but.
Deep Thoughts with Connor Mac Lyrr
"Alack! The heads do not die!"

KatieHal

Thanks! Was just watching this one as well. It's kinda late here so I need to collect my thoughts on it before responding further. But this after a talk I went to tonight about #1ReasonWhy made for an interesting double header of sorts.

Also, I look forward to seeing Part 3 and hearing about more exceptions to the Damsel trope--including Elaine Marley!

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Balinaeri

Ok, I watched the video. It is a downer. In fact, I can see examples of the Refrigerator Damsel in some of my favorite games. Never thought about that before.

This one was more of an eye-opener to me, for that very reason. While I was critical of the first video because I felt that it didn't really say anything new, this one made me think a bit more about my own gaming experiences.

I wonder what she thinks of player-controlled shared worlds like Second Life? There is quite a lot of violence against women there, and damselization and objectification of various kinds. But, this doesn't come from a cadre of game developers, but from the players themselves. This seems more disturbing as it means that we actually seek this in our escapism.

The truly sad point about that is that a world like Second Life could be the epitome of what she describes as the usefulness of video games to better ourselves. And, in fact, some do that. But a simple exploration reveals a huge amount of stereotypical and degrading behavior with women clearly defined as subservient sexual objects.

I need to watch it again, and think more on this before I have more detailed thoughts.

Also, if we can discuss this in a non-misogynistic way, I'd like to bring up her appearance. She's clearly quite intelligent, and I don't think she does anything accidentally, so I'm wondering what she's trying to say with her choices there. But I can also see that such a discussion is tangential at best, and might get quite heated, so we can move it to a separate thread or drop it entirely. I'm fine with either.
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.

KatieHal

I'm extremely wary of discussing her appearance for a few reasons (though I agree on nothing is accidental). One, the chances of it getting heated and/or misogynistic are pretty high, regardless of best intentions. Two, her appearance ultimately does not reflect and should not affect the topics she's discussing or bringing up. Which brings me to three, that yes, it is tangential to the topics at hand here & in her videos. So...I'm ultimately going to say let's not discuss that.

I haven't played a lot of the games she focused on in this video, but yeah, the sections where she described the basic plot of several games in row with exactly the same phrases were illuminating. Interestingly, I don't think I found the video as much of a downer as you & Bludshot say you did. It's a letdown that so many games do these things even today, but I wasn't all that surprised by it being so prevalent. Some of the terms were new (the Refrigerator Damsel in particular, though I instantly saw what she meant and keyed into how often that's used), and I didn't realize the 'please kill me so I won't be a monster' thing was happening quite so much. Again, these aren't games I've played or am familiar with for the most part. So they aren't plots I had previous knowledge of, and yet, I'm not really surprised by this trend, whereas you both seem to be more surprised, and at least in Balinaeri's case, are even familiar with the games brought up in her video.

Katie Hallahan
~Designer, PR Director~

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix." Christina Baldwin

I have a blog!

Balinaeri

Ok, Katie. I do agree with all of what you said. I'll drop the idea of talking about her appearance. Forget I brought it up. It's my psych minor going into overdrive, I guess. :)
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.