Author Topic: TOG Controversy?  (Read 23986 times)

Offline Numbers

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2015, 06:15:16 PM »
As long as his personality is intact, I don't really care if he looks different.

Uh, slight problem...TSL Graham is the only one that actually has a personality. In the first two games, he's a blank slate, and in KQ5, the only aspects of his personality that we really see are his kleptomania ("I'm trapped in a giant bird's nest, about to be eaten--ooh, a locket!"), occasional annoyance at Cedric and smarmy attitude towards the Witch of the Dark Forest. In KQ6 he only appears in the final cutscene and they cut him out of KQ7.

But of course, MoE Graham is by far the best incarnation: "We must begin construction of a new silo!" In a British accent. Yep, that's the Graham we know and love, all right.

The AGDI remakes gave Graham some more personality, and he was actually kind of cool in KQ2+, zapping Sharkees with his trident, slaying werewolves, outsmarting the dwarf, defeating Hagatha the way he knew how, and beating Morgeilen in a fair fight. It's actually kind of sad when we next see him in KQ3 Redux, a broken shell of who he once was.

TSL Graham for me is the definitive Graham: humble, noble, being able to put the Winged Ones in their place, surviving the initially hostile shape-shifting Morrigan, vowing to keep Valanice safe no matter the cost, relating to Cassima and Edgar, neither of which he knows very well, quick to pick up on how to use the magic amulet--especially since his life depended on knowing how it worked--and generally proving that, even in his old age, he's still got it.

For me, continuing the KQ games the way TOG is doing means Graham and Valanice will eventually have to kick the bucket to make way for the new heroes, which is just depressing. And Alexander and Rosella are going to be much older too, which limits their potential. Then again, I don't like Alexander and I really don't like what Rosella ended up being like later on, so...

But what it all comes down to is...what about Connor?! Clearly, he's the most important character in the franchise! You can't have King's Quest without Connor!
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Offline GrahamRocks!

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2015, 08:04:40 PM »
True, BUT! Think about this: We're seeing Graham when he's young, and we're seeing him grow up as the chapters go along. But he's not the badass we know and love clearly in this first chapter (Bravery path or not), he's a dorky kid who is seen as the underdog to all these other Knights. That's why I like the branching paths thing for this new game- Graham's brave, humble and clever... but which do we emphasize here, hm? That sounds like character development, something even TSL didn't do, to me. Yes, he had a personality, but I never saw Graham grow or change as a character throughout the episodes so far. In this one, it's clear that they're actually trying to do that, just from what I've been reading in the articles.

I was actually talking to RK about it a few weeks ago, and he did bring up a few points where Graham showed personality in 5... Hang on, let me find it...

Aha!

"5 for the most part. It established Graham as humble (for example, not wanting to be called 'Your Majesty' or even 'King'), Graham was modest. Graham was compassionate - saving the rat from the cat, helping the ants and the bees - all the most defenseless creatures from big bullies - and Graham was brave. Graham was also tricky - sating the Witch's ego by giving her the Bottle - and he was snarky ("Oh, I didn't know this was a PRIVATE forest - do you OWN it?)"

I'm assuming the brave bit was the Mordack battle. I did say that it wasn't really noticeable all that much back then, and most probably wouldn't see it right away, because they were distracted by the hammy acting and the nonsensical puzzle solutions so much that they didn't care about the personality of Graham.

I will concede that he was a blank slate in the first two. I think the first AGI adventurer I saw that had a personality was Sonny Bonds. That's why I like the AGDI verse so much! Also, you forgot one moment in KQ2+: Getting rid of the Enchanter once you have the Emerald made! That is one of my FAVORITE scenes in the game!

I also concede that while yes, saving the rat and the bees is a nice thing to do, the problem that rises from that in his defense is that it's REQUIRED to do so to beat the game. If you don't help the bees or save the rat, you're f***** six ways to Sunday before you realize it. Compassion is going out of your way to help someone, yes, but this sense of compassion is forced upon us and thusly it feels more than a little cheap.

Compare this to, say, the Paladin from Quest for Glory. Yes, there are a few things that you must logically do to become one and if you screw that up, then you've missed out on it in the second game. But take the third game, for instance. Saving the Meerbat is required, yes, but that's for every class. However, one thing you can do that ISN'T required is use your Healing Pills after you rescue it, and the text outright says that you're putting their needs before yours even though you've been injured from the vines yourself.

I don't really remember him being all that annoyed with Cedric, save for the end. "Come ON, Cedric!"

But really, I've kinda taken Edward calling Graham his "finest Knight" with a grain of salt because, like you said, blank slate in KQ1. Looks like we'll be seeing if he's worthy of that title soon... July 28th can't come soon enough...

I had something else I wanted to say, but can't remember what it is.

Offline Jack Stryker

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2015, 11:35:58 PM »
That sure was one Hell of a magic fruit Graham's daughter brought him.

Quote
Also, you forgot one moment in KQ2+: Getting rid of the Enchanter once you have the Emerald made! That is one of my FAVORITE scenes in the game!

Heheh... yeah, that was cool.


Quote
Compare this to, say, the Paladin from Quest for Glory. Yes, there are a few things that you must logically do to become one and if you screw that up, then you've missed out on it in the second game. But take the third game, for instance. Saving the Meerbat is required, yes, but that's for every class. However, one thing you can do that ISN'T required is use your Healing Pills after you rescue it, and the text outright says that you're putting their needs before yours even though you've been injured from the vines yourself.

There are other opportunities that you miss out on, by not becoming a paladin in QFG.  For example, in Shadows of Darkness, you can befriend the Rusulka as any class.  But only as a paladin, can you find out a way to avenge her death and set her spirit free.  Then there's the wraith who killed Piotyr in battle.  You're required to defeat him, in order to win the game.  But only as a paladin, can you find Piotyr's sword and restore his family's honor by bringing it to his grandson, the burgomeister.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 11:52:53 PM by Jack Stryker »

Offline GrahamRocks!

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2015, 12:30:10 AM »
That is true. And the Resulka isn't required either, now that I think of it. You get no reward from freeing her aside from self satisfaction.

Offline Rock Knight

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2015, 05:22:45 PM »
As long as his personality is intact, I don't really care if he looks different.

Uh, slight problem...TSL Graham is the only one that actually has a personality. In the first two games, he's a blank slate, and in KQ5, the only aspects of his personality that we really see are his kleptomania ("I'm trapped in a giant bird's nest, about to be eaten--ooh, a locket!"), occasional annoyance at Cedric and smarmy attitude towards the Witch of the Dark Forest. In KQ6 he only appears in the final cutscene and they cut him out of KQ7.

But of course, MoE Graham is by far the best incarnation: "We must begin construction of a new silo!" In a British accent. Yep, that's the Graham we know and love, all right.

The AGDI remakes gave Graham some more personality, and he was actually kind of cool in KQ2+, zapping Sharkees with his trident, slaying werewolves, outsmarting the dwarf, defeating Hagatha the way he knew how, and beating Morgeilen in a fair fight. It's actually kind of sad when we next see him in KQ3 Redux, a broken shell of who he once was.

TSL Graham for me is the definitive Graham: humble, noble, being able to put the Winged Ones in their place, surviving the initially hostile shape-shifting Morrigan, vowing to keep Valanice safe no matter the cost, relating to Cassima and Edgar, neither of which he knows very well, quick to pick up on how to use the magic amulet--especially since his life depended on knowing how it worked--and generally proving that, even in his old age, he's still got it.

For me, continuing the KQ games the way TOG is doing means Graham and Valanice will eventually have to kick the bucket to make way for the new heroes, which is just depressing. And Alexander and Rosella are going to be much older too, which limits their potential. Then again, I don't like Alexander and I really don't like what Rosella ended up being like later on, so...

But what it all comes down to is...what about Connor?! Clearly, he's the most important character in the franchise! You can't have King's Quest without Connor!

Companion + Novel Graham have the same general personality.

As far as the looks issue: I think they're trying, with the new game, to give the best synthesis of his looks from all 3 games in which he has a clearly defined face (KQ4, KQ5 and 6). He looks vastly different in all 3 games, but if you've noticed, they've kept a number of things which are common to all versions:

-Bigger nose
-Long sideburns
-Slightly bushy eyebrows
-Mullet

IIRC, Graham's appearance in TSL was based upon Harrison Ford mixed with KQ6 Graham.

But Graham has had many faces even pre-KQ8:





« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 05:24:54 PM by Rock Knight »

Offline Numbers

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2015, 07:40:22 PM »
Companion + novel stuff doesn't count. Never has, no matter what Baggins thinks.

And Graham looks exactly the same in all of those pictures. TOG's Graham just looks ugly, both old and young.
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Offline kyranthia

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2015, 08:23:14 PM »
I think young Graham looks pretty good. He looks pretty close to how I would picture a younger version of himself. 

I do, however, agree old Graham's design does not at all fit with with his younger design.  In fact, I think they made him look more than just old but like some ancient wizard or something.  Maybe there's a reason for that since I don't think he would have aged that much.  How is Gwendolyn?  Seven or so?  Even if there were a few years between the last adventure and her birth, I don't think Graham would have aged that much...

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2015, 08:52:40 PM »
Uh, I'd hate to break to you, but... TOG considers at least the Companion canon iirc. So... yeah.

I think I actually meant to bring up said Companion and the novels, but some don't consider it canon anyway, so they only have the games to go off on. *shrugs*

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2015, 06:21:31 AM »
Hah, if they do, I'll be curious to see how they reconcile all the conflicting details in the Companion. We certainly had a difficult time doing so!

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Offline GrahamRocks!

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2015, 06:56:11 AM »
I'm just waiting for Numbers's head to explode in rage.

Offline Numbers

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2015, 11:03:52 AM »
Uh, I'd hate to break to you, but... TOG considers at least the Companion canon iirc.

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Offline GrahamRocks!

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2015, 12:16:42 PM »
 :rofl: HAHAHA!!

Offline Rock Knight

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2015, 04:07:45 PM »
I think young Graham looks pretty good. He looks pretty close to how I would picture a younger version of himself. 

I do, however, agree old Graham's design does not at all fit with with his younger design.  In fact, I think they made him look more than just old but like some ancient wizard or something.  Maybe there's a reason for that since I don't think he would have aged that much.  How is Gwendolyn?  Seven or so?  Even if there were a few years between the last adventure and her birth, I don't think Graham would have aged that much...

Well, consider that in Roberta's view, KQ8 only took place a few years after KQ7, yet Graham was already old - Her words "Graham is now old". Yet Rosella was still young enough to have a potential love triangle between herself, Connor and Edgar (This was one of Roberta's ideas for a plot line for a KQ9). He aged greatly between 6 and 8. But Graham's age has always been all over the place. If you read some sources, like the KQ7 Player's Guide, Graham is only supposed to be 44 at the time of KQ7...Yet he has a full head of grey hair and is referred to as "old" in KQ4....

Offline Rock Knight

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2015, 04:52:40 PM »
Companion + novel stuff doesn't count. Never has, no matter what Baggins thinks.

And Graham looks exactly the same in all of those pictures. TOG's Graham just looks ugly, both old and young.

He doesn't look exactly the same though.
KQ1 Graham - long black hair, thinner nose and eyebrows.
KQ5 Graham - thicker eyebrows, bigger nose, wavy hair

I mean look at the two versions of KQ6 Graham, the non-enhanced and the enhanced version. Two totally different faces.

What TOG seems to want to do is to synthesize the various looks Graham has had. Not do a carbon copy of one or the other. I mean if they were trying to do a departure from Graham's appearance, why give him the hat? Why give him the sideburns? Why in 2015 give him a mullet?

Offline GrahamRocks!

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2015, 05:02:44 PM »
Can I just say that I'm REALLY glad that Roberta never went with that idea? Because I've always HATED love triangles.

Besides, Connor seems to be attracted to Sarah anyway.

Speaking of Connor, I think it would be kinda interesting to see, say, a young Connor in one of the chapters. Like, have a situation like in the Air Gem tests that reminds you of the first test- the one where Graham meets Edward and gets in trouble. Could do something like that for Connor and Graham, give Connor more character and such.

Yes, yes, I realise that your "Where's Connor?!" comment is meant to be a joke, but hey, it could work. :)

Offline Numbers

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2015, 02:38:52 PM »
That love triangle was yet another one of Roberta's stupid decisions, and why it's a good thing the series died before it could get any worse.
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Offline GrahamRocks!

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2015, 05:08:52 PM »
Here's hoping that TOG is smarter with the series. ;)

Offline Jack Stryker

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2015, 08:05:57 PM »
Pretty sure TOG have in fact disregarded that love triangle idea.  I believe the GameInformer article stated that Gwendolyn is taking part in a competition against her cousin; who is the son of Rosella and Edgar.  And I personally don't see Rosella as the kind of girl who would cheat on her husband, particularly after everything they did for each other, and after giving birth to his child.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 08:12:06 PM by Jack Stryker »

Offline GrahamRocks!

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2015, 08:41:30 PM »
Oh, I knew about Gart. I meant about them being stupid in general with their ideas.

Offline Birdy

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Re: TOG Controversy?
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2015, 10:58:42 AM »
I personally think the game looks great so far. I love the art direction (even if it is a bit cartoony) and they got a great voice cast, too. As far as story and gameplay go, I guess it's a bit too early to tell. But I'm excited.
 

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