The KQ Universe afterlife... explained?

[Amayirot Akago]

Not to sure where to post this, so I put it here. Move if necessary.

Well, we all know that KQVI introduced the concept of an afterlife in the KQ universe. However, the (excellently designed, I might add) Underworld in KQVI was rudely ignored in MOE and replaced by the trite Dimension of Death.

And, with KQIX including the storyline of MOE as canon, there is introduced the problem of inconsistency. IF there is a visit to the afterlife in KQIX (which is very likely) will the designers choose for the Underworld from KQVI or MOE's Dimension of Death? Or, will there be an explanation as to why two afterlives exist in the KQ universe?

[DarkTerror]

Good question. I found MoE very incosistent with the other KQs. Like the swamp area should have been the same swamp where you got that fruit in KQ4. Or the Mountain area in KQ8 and Queen Icebella in KQ5 should have somehow been intertwined.

Because of the inconsistency, you don't know where any of these KQ8 places are.

I have a side question. The guy who ruled the underworld in KQ8 isn't the same guy in KQ6 right? I t hink that was the most obvious dissapointment.

[The Fat Emu]

In KQ6 he was never referred to by name, only as the Lord of the Dead.

In KQ8 he was known as Lord Azrael, I believe, and looked very different.

Perhaps after crying, the Lord of the Dead decided he wasn't fit for the job, and handed it over to his second-in-command.

[racx_00]

In MoE he was known as Lord Azrael, I believe, and looked very different.

Lord Azrael (if I remember correctly) looked like the skeleton of a goat , but yeah its rather confusing with the two different lands of death.

But then MoE's land of death was a dimension (had to travel through a portal), whereas with the KQVI's land of death you travelled there by dying or the black horse.

[Oldbushie]

Maybe the Land of the Dead was a transitional phase before the true Dimension of Death?

"Dang, I been dead for 5 years, time to go slaving away for Lord Azreal instead of this wimpy dude who cries at his own reflection."

[racx_00]

Kinda like Grim Fandango

Go to the Land of the Dead then move on to eternal rest

[Oldbushie]

Yeah!

Whatever you do in the between world determines your final final resting place. Cuz at least you know how much time you have left.

[Petter Holmberg]

Seriously, trying to tie up MOE with the rest of the series is perhaps not even worth the effort. Obviously it didn't come into the designers' minds to tie stuff like this to the previous installements in the series. They appear to have figured a few hints in the first dimension (Daventry) were enough. And even there, only the castle part is really representing the past... Unfortunately not even the castle is recognizable. The loading map gives some abstract view of how the worlds are tied together, but of course it's not the KQ world as we know it. Most dimensions are reminiscent of previous locations in the series but it's far-fetched to connect them in any case. Maybe it's best to think of the entire MOE world as a "dark" version of the real world, as caused by the destruction of the Mask of Eternity...

But that hasn't stopped me for trying to connect everything. Interestingly, there are many geographical clues for building a world map in the previous parts, but nothing quite matches MOE. I kind of found a solution for connecting the classic Daventry with the MOE Daventry and the Daventry described in the three KQ novels. It works, given a few assumptions.

I also tried to imagine what Castle Daventry really looks like, from every single official reference, including MOE. Can't really show it to you though... Interestingly, there's a ruin of another castle in MOE that you can visit. This castle has a few similarities with the traditional Castle Daventry, but it's not clear what the designers imagined. It doesn't fit the story that Castle Daventry was abandoned and decayed so quickly, and it also would have made a rather puny castle for a king. No, that's not likely to be the case.

It fascinates me though, that a world that's on the surface so loosely developed really works and reveals a lot of interesting details if you are prepared to look closer. Assembling subtle little details from all official sources gives you a world that logically works and is believable. I also rather like Peter Spear's (author of The King's Quest Companion) idea that the KQ world is a mirror-world of our own, where our myths and fairy-tales originated although it's long-since forgotten. Theirs is a world of magic while technology has developed further here, but both worlds co-exist and there are connection lines between them. The King's Quest Companion is also a semi-official source of information, so I'm glad that it's written by someone who really loves and understands the KQ universe.

[Storm]

Kinda like Grim Fandango

Go to the Land of the Dead then move on to eternal rest

You got it backwards... in Grim Fandango, you go to the DOD first

[awesomeasapossum]

I think at the begining you will see the ending of MOE and suddenly each member of the royal family will wake up (showing that) MOE ws just a dream! Or should I say NIGHTMARE?

[Baggins]

Ok, two points I want to bring up about the assumed discrepancy between DOD, and ROD...

First someone said that "Lord of the Dead" didn't have a name in KQ6. Actually he's known as "Lord Samhain".

Secondly it should also be pointed out that Guidebook to the Land of green Isles that came with KQ6, is very specific in pointing out that Realm of the Dead is a legend in Green Isles, Derek Karlavaegen had never even heard of it before he visited the Islands.

Secondly there is a sea you can look at behind Samhain's throne known as the sea of souls. The game explains that is the place where spirits wait to be judged before moving onto their respective afterlives.

Now that we have ROD out of the way let's move onto DOD.
Now the manual is specific is specific in pointing out that its related to Daventry legends. It too leads to a place where souls are judged,  but the main difference its for Daventry's souls who await judgement before moving onto their respective afterlives, rather than people from the Green Isles.


So it would seem both areas are rather a kind of limbo before moving onto something else. Each is ruled by its own leaders. I personally don't see much of a contradiction here, just two seperate locations dealing with souls from two seperate locations, and belonging to seperate legends.

Additionally the old spirit in land of the gnomes mentions something he calls, the spirit-world of the ancient souls, which seems to point to yet another afterlife, or pre-afterlife.

I hope I've been helpful.

Oh on a side note, here is a picture I made for the King's Quest Omnipedia, in which I put together the clues from thase MOE manual(it aligns everythign to the north as mentioned in the MOE manual  rather than east/west as seen in the ingame screenshots) and tie it into the map from the King's Quest Companion/King's Questions game;
http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:Worldmapalligned.PNG

You'll also note that I was forced to refrence 2 seperate castles as that the other location is where it was shown in previous official maps. That and the castle in MOE is very inconsistant with the previous castle as seen in the earlier games. So I personally just assume the one in MOE is a new castle, but there is really no way to know for sure. I won't even get into the whole old castle keep arguement in this topic, :p...

As someone else mentioned its possible to make a few more assumptions based off of the official king's quest spinoff material.

For instance anything in the mountains(gnome land, frozen reaches, barrens) can be interpreted to be part of the Great Mountains as mentioned in King's Quest Companion.

The ocean seen to the top of the screen in the overworld map would tie to the Western Sea as mentioned in King's Quest Companion and Kingdom of Sorrow.

The swamp could related the marsh that Sinofas was in just north of old woods as mentioned in Floating Castle.

There are quite a few other connections that can be made to tie things together.

[Baggins]

"The King's Quest Companion is also a semi-official source of information, so I'm glad that it's written by someone who really loves and understands the KQ universe."

Its a bit more than just semi official imo...

First of it was officially authorized by Sierra, and has the sierra copyright. It was refrenced in several official sierra released products related to KQ. Infact a few answers in King's questions game can only be found in Companion. It influenced several other strategy guides, and games, and possibly a few refrences in the novels (or at least he got access to source material long before it was put into one of hte games). Lake Maylie for instance got refrenced into KQ5 lore  in Sierra's own KQ6 hint guide, by Lorelei Shannon. Derek Karlavaegen was invented by Peter Spear, but was used for backlore for King's Quest 6. The official King's Questions game based its map directly off the world map in companion, and several issues of Interaction sierra's official magazine, and one of the programs in the king's quest collection printed portions of the book, and advertized it.

The artist who drew his map of world of Daventry, drew the islands in the same location, and number of islands, that was shown in KQ6 back during KQ5 edition of the companion(lucky guess, early information, or the king's quest team using his book for source material who knows).

Its certainly secondary material, but its as official as any of the other official manuals, and guides authorized by Sierra.

[Rosedragon]

Thanks for that interesting info, Baggins.  Are you new here? Welcome to the forums. Are you a Tolkein fan?

[GunHoMac]

Interesting...and long, but your assumptions about two castles is quite wrong.  There is, in fact, only one castle of Daventry.  Now, other castles do exist, but they belong to different lands.  By definition, a land ruled by one family can only have one castle.  You don't have more than one capital building, so there aren't multiple Daventry castles.

Your take on the RoD and DoD is unique, but the idea of multiple places to go have your soul judged just seems extravagant and unecessary.  The idea that one is a medium leading to the other sounds more reasonable, but in the end they'll be whatever POS tells us they are.

[Baggins]

Are you a Tolkein fan?

Yes I am, .

"Interesting...and long, but your assumptions about two castles is quite wrong.  There is, in fact, only one castle of Daventry.  Now, other castles do exist, but they belong to different lands.  By definition, a land ruled by one family can only have one castle.  You don't have more than one capital building, so there aren't multiple Daventry castles."

Actually this can be looked at from several different ways.

First off there are 2 castles of Daventry in MOE already. The game refers to the zone through the Aquaduct as Castle Daventry, and Connor refers to the ruins as the Old Castle Keep of Daventry.

Now as mentioned before there is no way to know which was intended(if either was intended) to be the Castle seen from previous games. The ruins look vaguely like the KQ1 castle, and the zone with the throne room looks nothing like previous castles in the series, it lies on a mountain top when previous castle was shown to lie in a valley.

We have no idea what the designers intended to imply with those two castles. But neither truly fit the castles seen in previous games. Especially take a look at KQ6's throne room in the intro video due to its fact it pans around the room, as it shows a good idea what the KQ1 style castle looked like, with the depression for the mirror on the right wall, and the benches along the sides of both walls, and all.

Secondly actually many real world kingdoms have more than one castle. Ludwig II of Bavaria actually had several built for himself.  Some nations even had a summer castle, and winter castle, which they moved into dependent on the weather.

Third I never said that both castles were both used at the same time. As old castle ruins show at least once the kings of daventry have changed castles. So its possible to interpret the the contradictions between the castles and their locations in the world to mean that some point after KQ7, and between MoE they moved into a different castle.

Guidebook to the land of Green Isles even mentions that there was a "former" castle of the crown, and that King's moved into a newer one later on...so there is precidence for this kind of thing happening...

Again I repeat we will never truly know what the designers had intended, and we can only speculate. Who knows what POS theory will be.

"Your take on the RoD and DoD is unique, but the idea of multiple places to go have your soul judged just seems extravagant and unecessary.  The idea that one is a medium leading to the other sounds more reasonable, but in the end they'll be whatever POS tells us they are."

Well I can only tell you what designers claimed both locations were within the manuals, one pointed ot one was Green Isles legend, and Derek even thought it interesting, while MoE's manual claimed that DOD was legend in Daventry. Even King's Quest companion referred to more than one afterlife. Hades for example was known to Alexander, and aparently located in a seperate dimension than even Land of the Dead, apparently the crevasse around Old Witch's house in Serenia opened up into Hades. More importantly Guidebook to the land of the green isles even said there were more than one legend of the afterlife;

DEATH TRADITIONS

Death fascinates men the world round, and there are as many philosophies about what comes after this life as there are, it seems, lives which end. I found the Green Islanders to all share a common belief, so strongly held as to seem to defy questioning...

The realm of the Dead is a place not of this world. There Death himself rules. Some call him the Lord of Dead, others call him Samhain. Those souls who have died at peace with their lives are allowed to enter the Underworld and are placed in the Sea of Souls. In that safe repository, they are greeted by ultimate knowledge and are prepared for the next stage.

Ya, if POS decides to make them out to be something else, they'll be what ever the they want them to be in their game. Its their game, and I can't wait to see what their imagination has come up with. I'll be sure to point out the differences when refrencing said info in Omnipedia. I'm all for pointing out differences between continuities, as there is no true way to tie them all together. I personally do not argue against another source's take on the history(as I find each source's creativity to be awesome), I'll just point out where information differs from other sources POV.

But maybe there are people like me who like discussing the various differences between the various sources?

On a side note here is copy of the picture from the King's Quest Collection's King's Questions showing the relation between where Daventry and Green Isles was located;

http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:King%27s_questions_map.JPG

Note that it corresponds map form the King's Quest Companion;

http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:Daventrycontinent.JPG

Just thought people might find it interesting.

Course people might also check out KQ3 for an additional interpretation of the continent of Daventry created before the KQ5 team decided to connect Serenia to northern continent;

http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:Charts.PNG

[Deloria]

Are you a Tolkein fan?

Yes I am, .

"Interesting...and long, but your assumptions about two castles is quite wrong.  There is, in fact, only one castle of Daventry.  Now, other castles do exist, but they belong to different lands.  By definition, a land ruled by one family can only have one castle.  You don't have more than one capital building, so there aren't multiple Daventry castles."

Actually this can be looked at from several different ways.

First off there are 2 castles of Daventry in MOE already. The game refers to the zone through the Aquaduct as Castle Daventry, and Connor refers to the ruins as the Old Castle Keep of Daventry.

Now as mentioned before there is no way to know which was intended(if either was intended) to be the Castle seen from previous games. The ruins look vaguely like the KQ1 castle, and the zone with the throne room looks nothing like previous castles in the series, it lies on a mountain top when previous castle was shown to lie in a valley.

We have no idea what the designers intended to imply with those two castles. But neither truly fit the castles seen in previous games. Especially take a look at KQ6's throne room in the intro video due to its fact it pans around the room, as it shows a good idea what the KQ1 style castle looked like, with the depression for the mirror on the right wall, and the benches along the sides of both walls, and all.

Secondly actually many real world kingdoms have more than one castle. Ludwig II of Bavaria actually had several built for himself.  Some nations even had a summer castle, and winter castle, which they moved into dependent on the weather.

Third I never said that both castles were both used at the same time. As old castle ruins show at least once the kings of daventry have changed castles. So its possible to interpret the the contradictions between the castles and their locations in the world to mean that some point after KQ7, and between MoE they moved into a different castle.

Guidebook to the land of Green Isles even mentions that there was a "former" castle of the crown, and that King's moved into a newer one later on...so there is precidence for this kind of thing happening...

Again I repeat we will never truly know what the designers had intended, and we can only speculate. Who knows what POS theory will be.

"Your take on the RoD and DoD is unique, but the idea of multiple places to go have your soul judged just seems extravagant and unecessary.  The idea that one is a medium leading to the other sounds more reasonable, but in the end they'll be whatever POS tells us they are."

Well I can only tell you what designers claimed both locations were within the manuals, one pointed ot one was Green Isles legend, and Derek even thought it interesting, while MoE's manual claimed that DOD was legend in Daventry. Even King's Quest companion referred to more than one afterlife. Hades for example was known to Alexander, and aparently located in a seperate dimension than even Land of the Dead, apparently the crevasse around Old Witch's house in Serenia opened up into Hades. More importantly Guidebook to the land of the green isles even said there were more than one legend of the afterlife;

DEATH TRADITIONS

Death fascinates men the world round, and there are as many philosophies about what comes after this life as there are, it seems, lives which end. I found the Green Islanders to all share a common belief, so strongly held as to seem to defy questioning...

The realm of the Dead is a place not of this world. There Death himself rules. Some call him the Lord of Dead, others call him Samhain. Those souls who have died at peace with their lives are allowed to enter the Underworld and are placed in the Sea of Souls. In that safe repository, they are greeted by ultimate knowledge and are prepared for the next stage.

Ya, if POS decides to make them out to be something else, they'll be what ever the they want them to be in their game. Its their game, and I can't wait to see what their imagination has come up with. I'll be sure to point out the differences when refrencing said info in Omnipedia. I'm all for pointing out differences between continuities, as there is no true way to tie them all together. I personally do not argue against another source's take on the history(as I find each source's creativity to be awesome), I'll just point out where information differs from other sources POV.

But maybe there are people like me who like discussing the various differences between the various sources?

On a side note here is copy of the picture from the King's Quest Collection's King's Questions showing the relation between where Daventry and Green Isles was located;

http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:King%27s_questions_map.JPG

Note that it corresponds map form the King's Quest Companion;

http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:Daventrycontinent.JPG

Just thought people might find it interesting.

Course people might also check out KQ3 for an additional interpretation of the continent of Daventry created before the KQ5 team decided to connect Serenia to northern continent;

http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:Charts.PNG

The thing is, I think DoD and RoD are the same (both have the river styx). It would seem very extravagent to have them behind/next to  each other, or even connected.

As for the castles, they moved out of the keep sometime between and into the new castle sometime between KQ6 and KQ8. Probably because it did provide more security.

And the maps, How can you be that sure that the "world" ends there.
There could be another "world":

KQ2: Graham went by ship. The green isles is not located on the MoE map, therefore I don't think Kolyma is either.

KQ3: Alexander was kidnapped by Manannan. Manannan is a wizard. Wizards have magic. I can therefore come to the conclusion that Manannan used magic to get Alexander as far away as possible.

KQ4: Genesta got Rosella to Tamir by Magic. I will now assume that Tamir is not on the map. I also don't think the swamp in MoE is the same one as in KQ4, due to the fact that a lot of elements are missing (i.e: Tamir )

KQ5: Cedric and Graham did fly...I will assume the same thing as above, all the places are not on the map because they're all too far away.

KQ6: Alexander went by ship. Kolyma is not located on the MoE map, therefore I don't think the Land of the green Isles are either.

KQ7: We're talking about faeries. I think the realm of Eldritch is a long way away from Daventry.

[Baggins]

"The thing is, I think DoD and RoD are the same (both have the river styx). It would seem very extravagent to have them behind/next to  each other, or even connected."

Actually to be more technical, the river in KQ6, is called "River Styx", and the river in MoE, is called "River of Death".

This is a case where I'd really like to know what the designers were thinking when they created DOD. What were they trying to imply, besides saying its "Daventry' Legend". I can't remember if it was ever asked in any of the interviews at the time. It might have been in the "talkspot" part 3 online broadcast, but unfortunately no one seems to have a copy of that anymore...

Why did they refer to a completely different set of myth, as well in refrence to different terminology for the land? Azriel comes from a completely different belief system than Samhain as far as I know, its the english form of the name of a catholic, Jewish, and muslim angel's name isn't it? Azrael, The Angel of Death". "River of Death" comes from Christian myth too I think (though I'm sure it was incorporated from greek and roman myth by the Christians, based on the River Styx).

"Samhain" actually originates from the name of a Celtic holiday as I recall, the idea of Samhain being the name of the master of some kind of underworld originated from an author in the 1700's as far as I remember reading.

"As for the castles, they moved out of the keep sometime between and into the new castle sometime between KQ6 and MoE. Probably because it did provide more security."

I agree.

However, its strongly implied in official lore within official hint guides that the Castle Daventry used during KQ7 time was the same one from KQ6, and had been used since before KQ1. Its important to note that we don't actually see Castle Daventry in KQ7 at all, and the only refrences to it in that era come from strategy guides, such as Companion.

I just wish we knew for sure if the designers of MOE intended for us to think they moved out of the classic Edward's Castle after KQ7, or if they just didn't do their research well enough, and intended the mountain castle to be the same castle despite its inaccuracies...or for that matter was the Old Castle Keep intended to be the old castle seen in previous games, or another castle altogether.

And the maps, How can you be that sure that the "world" ends there.
There could be another "world":"

Huh, world ends where? Other world? What do you mean? I just posted up the maps, I don't think I specified any kind of "end of the world" kind of thing. Unless you mean the "Edge of the World" as mentioned in Guidebook to the land of the Green Isles?

If you are referring to my unofficial drawn map(using MS paint mind you), its only of the southern half of the continent of Daventry, based on MOE map and the official maps in King's Quest Companion and King's Questions. It is not however meant to show the entire world... I frankly don't have the time to draw such a map..., and I'm hardly that great of an artist...

Its simply to show there is a difference in locations based on earlier maps and MOE's map, and how the differences of Kingdom of Daventry might still fit with each other.

KQ2: Graham went by ship. The green isles is not located on the MoE map, therefore I don't think Kolyma is either.

Actually KQ2 never specifies how Graham reached kolyma. Unless you mean unofficial KQ2+.

I don't think I brought up Kolyma, or Green Isles in any of the maps...? I don't think we were discussing those as far as maps go were we?

Out of point of trivia however, official maps, have placed Kolyma on a southern continent. Infact it the southern continent seen in KQ3 charts.

I did post up the King's Questions map though, and made refrences to where Green Isles is in location to it, and Kingdom of Daventry.

"KQ3: Alexander was kidnapped by Manannan. Manannan is a wizard. Wizards have magic. I can therefore come to the conclusion that Manannan used magic to get Alexander as far away as possible."

Yes, Llewdor is on another continent than daventry. Its implied Manannan traveled by magic when he kidnapped Alexander, in official lore.

"KQ4: Genesta got Rosella to Tamir by Magic. I will now assume that Tamir is not on the map. I also don't think the swamp in MoE is the same one as in KQ4, due to the fact that a lot of elements are missing (i.e: Tamir ) "

Oh I certainly agree that the swamp in KQ4 is not hte same on in MOE. According to official maps Tamir is on a completely different continent than Daventry. Infact official maps hae placed it on the same continent as Llewdor actually.

However its possible the swamp in daventry mentioned in King's Quest novel, Floating CAstle, could possibly be the the same swamp in MOE, though not from a game making standpoint however. As I'm sure the designers didn't have the novels in mind when designing hte map.

"KQ5: Cedric and Graham did fly...I will assume the same thing as above, all the places are not on the map because they're all too far away."

He flew north, and official lore places Serenia as a land north of the mountains north of Daventry. Certain official maps place it as the northern part of the continent.

"KQ6: Alexander went by ship. Kolyma is not located on the MoE map, therefore I don't think the Land of the green Isles are either."

Land of Green Isles are east of Daventry, according to official maps. King's Questions for one.

"KQ7: We're talking about faeries. I think the realm of Eldritch is a long way away from Daventry"

Infact its in another world altogether, another dimension. A missing scene in KQ7, with king graham would have explained this. Infact a  sound file from that scene can be found in the game's files. Interesting trivia is that time moved differently in the other world making it seem as if only 15 minutes or so passed in Daventry, when Rosella, and Valanice had been in Etheria much longer than that. This is also covered in the Peter Spear's official Strategy Guide, for KQ7, where King Graham, Rosella, and Valanice discuss the time differences between the two worlds.

For future refrence here is the map of the entire world as seen in the official King's Quest Companion. As it gives an idea where all main kingdom's are in relation to each other.

http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:Worlddaventry.JPG

As I mentioned before, Eldritch is considered to be in another world altogether. However I don't know how TSL team will choose to interpret it for their game. For all I know they may actually detour from official lore somewhat.

[Deloria]

"KQ6: Alexander went by ship. Kolyma is not located on the MoE map, therefore I don't think the Land of the green Isles are either."

Land of Green Isles are east of Daventry, according to official maps. King's Questions for one.

Actually I thought they were west of daventry (in King's Question's you see them sailing east)

Infact its in another world altogether, another dimension. A missing scene in KQ7, with king graham would have explained this. Infact a  sound file from that scene can be found in the game's files. Interesting trivia is that time moved differently in the other world making it seem as if only 15 minutes or so passed in Daventry, when Rosella, and Valanice had been in Etheria much longer than that. This is also covered in the Peter Spear's official Strategy Guide, for KQ7, where King Graham, Rosella, and Valanice discuss the time differences between the two worlds.

I read Peter Spear's guide, but the sound file, I thought it was something like:
"Ladies, I was getting worried, yuo're ten minutes late for lunch."
At least that's what it says on the Sierra planet trivia.

[Baggins]

"Actually I thought they were west of daventry (in King's Question's you see them sailing east)"

Actually look closely within the game itself, and you'll notice the map is turned upside down and backwards, even the green isles are turned upside down(compared to what was said to be north in KQ6).

http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:Kq6_Magic_Map.jpg

The direction symbol on the map in the middle of the King's Questions map is the only thing that truly shows which is truly north(its the exact same symbol as in KQ6 map). I have no idea why the team that made King's Questions inverted the entire map... But you'll notice when alligned correctly as I have done with the omnipedia map, with the direction symbol pointing up for north, it corresponds to the Companion's map, the KQ6 map, and was definitely derived from both maps.

"Ladies, I was getting worried, yuo're ten minutes late for lunch."

The soundfile can be found here;
"http://www.sq7.org/KQ/images/9/99/Graham.ogg"

The implications of the quote, was to imply that only a short time had passed in Daventry between the time Valanice and Rosella entered Etheria, and the time they got back. From their POV much more time had passed.

Unfortunately the entire scene was never completed, and we only get a few more hints about it from Peter Spear's guide, .

[Elessar]

"Ladies, I was getting worried, you're ten minutes late for lunch."

Actually, the sound file says 15 minutes.