Castle Daventry

[Dangling Participle]

I have a question about the Castle of Daventry we'll get to see in TSL...
Will it be the castle shown throughout King's Quest games up to 7 (in the middle of Daventry) or the one shown in MoE (upon a mountain)?

I always tried to figure out why the castle from MoE was different and if either that castle or the 'Old Castle Keep of Daventry' were intended to be the same castle from the previous games or not. 

I wish to know if TSL will explain some details about this situation, like what happened to the original castle or why did the royal family moved to another castle..

BTW im new to the forums, Just can't wait to play the game!!! 

[Deloria]

Welcome to the Forums, Dandeling Participle! As for your question, I'm really not sure...I think they moved out of the castle keep (becasue as I recall, there was never a waterfall before MoE). Mabye they moved out because it was safer (it's more difficult to get to the topof the mountain than down into a valley, and archer's have a better shot) . 

[Baggins]

This is one of those really strange issues between the various games, and different design teams. For the omnipedia I've tried to incorporate all the interpretations on the issue, or at least mention the differences.

1. Is old castle keep ruins intended to be the original castle daventry as seen throughout the series (despite being rather small, and not entirely consistant with the locations and geography from previous games and source material)? Note: Old Castle Keep Ruins is located on a mountain/hill with a cliff face itself, rather than a valley.

2. Is the old castle keep ruins intended to be some ruins of a castle that predates even castle seen in KQ1(and the rest of the series), explaining the fact it has an ancient device, a teleporter where the throne room should be located, and ancient traps, and the fact its on a hill rather than a valley?

3. Is the castle on the mountain supposed to be the same castle from previous games(despite the designer's errors with the geography, its location, and design structure compared to the castle from previous games)?

4. Was the castle on the mountain intended to be a new castle replacing the older one?

5. Are all 3 castles intended to be seperate castles, located in seperate locations?

I'll add another fly to the ointment in pointing out that the map of daventry as it was intended in MOE's original version as can be seen in the Roberta William's collection making of video, shows that originally Castle Daventry was going to be located in a valley  surrounded by a moat, several rivers, and all the lands in the game were going to radiate around it. Much closer to how daventry appeared in King's Quest 1.

I've read, watched, heard, several behind the scenes material, and absolutely nothing really gives any information about the castle. The official strategy guide is rather useless as far as information of that degree is concerned.

Infact I even asked Roberta Williams a question on the issue in the 3rd part of the talkspot interviews (which I can't find a copy of anymore), where she gave a few clues as I remember. As I recall first she said that its just a game, and they weren't really trying to be consisent with the world of daventry with previous games, they just wanted to tell a story with the limitations of the game's engine. I seem to remember her hinting that Daventry was intended to be on earth in some point in the past. But for the most part she never clarified on what which castle was which...

Let me bring up one more related issue;

Its little known but according to the manual the swamp, and the mountains where Underground Realm of the Gnomes, Frozen Reaches, and Paradise Lost is located is actually north of Daventry.

As per the quote;

"The realm of the Gnomes is north of of the swamp and lies in tunnels under the mountains."-MOE manual.

However the way the main overworld map was drawn all locations  appear to be east of daventry, with what is supposed to be the western sea appears to be the north of everything due to the angle the map was drawn.

http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:DaventryMOE.PNG

Its important to note that desert, and Serenia are north of Daventry across the mountains, as shown in KQ5, as there is no ocean directly north of Daventry so this is another issue of the artist drawing the map at an odd angle to where the mountains are actually located(to the north).

This makes trying to figure out how the individiual in-game maps are alligned much more difficult. Though its likely that all the magic maps(except the map of connor's village) are facing the correct direction, as most every magic map(except for the starting daventry map)  appear to be alligned so that the bottom of the map is south, and top of the map is north.

The issue appears to mostly be with the overworld map, and the first zone. Map of connor's village zone places Castle Daventry to the north of connor's village, however if one looks at the overworld map Connor's village actually appears to north(or east) of the castle.

http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:Mapallign.PNG

So in the case of kingdom of Daventry map it would appear that southern part of the map is actually north, and the blocked road to daventry castle is actually south.

Every other map from Dimension of death appear to have you start in the southern part of each map, and work your way north, as is stated within the manual's lore.

Also it should be noted that in previous material Castle Daventry location has been more east of the western ocean, in the middle of the continent. In KQ3, Alexander landed at a NW beach, and worked his way southeast to Daventry. The map in both King's Quest Companion, and King's Questions places kingdom of Daventry(original castle) to the far east of Daventry, before the mountains that lead to the seas to the east.

As one can see the castle on the mountain in MOE is located too close to the western ocean, compared to where previous game designers and lore writers places the original castle.

Here is a little paint sketch I made to try to show and explain the difference between the older maps of daventry, and MOE;
http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:Worldmapalligned.PNG

Here is the companion map of the continent where Daventry is located;

http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:Daventrycontinent.JPG

and the King's Questions map;

http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:King%27s_questions_map.JPG

Additionally KQ3 charts, that shows Daventry before they decided to put Serenia in the northern part of the continent;

http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:Charts.PNG

[Rosedragon]

In my stories I describe Castle Daventry. I think in the game we will get to see the inside of Castle Daventry. How exciting! I should do some artwork showing the interior of Castle Daventry. Like a pic of Edgar and Rosella in the ballroom. My current pic of Edgar and Rosella....yuck! it sucks.

[Deloria]

I wonder if the game will actually be in the old castle or the new one.

[maestro]

The major appeal, at least for me, in playing KQ9--I mean TSL--will be in seeing and moving around the lands we already know in 3-D.  I fully expect Castle Daventry in TSL to look exactly the same as Castle Daventry looked in the enhanced version of KQ1, except that we will be able to walk around it and see it from different angles.  After all, in the screenshots and trailer we've already seen, the Land of the Green Isles looks exactly as it did in KQ6.  It will be a major disappointment if Castle Daventry in TSL is not the same as Castle Daventry in KQ1SCI.

[Baggins]

"It will be a major disappointment if Castle Daventry in TSL is not the same as Castle Daventry in KQ1SCI."

Oh I don't mind how it looks as long as it resembles the layout of the Great Hall as it appears in KQ1 AGI, KQ1SCI, KQ4, or KQ6.

[Deloria]

The old castle keep is so much better, the new one looks rushed and is kind of like this:

       / \           
____|  |
         |
______|    Whereas the old one is much more traditional with a drawbridge and portcullis, like this:



                _   _    _ 
               | |_| |_| |                         
               |_        _|
___________|      |
                        |
                        |
                        |
________________|
       

[Baggins]

I had the chance to ask Mark Seibert about this, and it turns out that the "New Castle" was intended to be the same Castle from previous games;

...the castle entered through the passageway behind the waterfall is Castle Daventry.  The reason you don’t see much of it is that it was damaged in the opening scene.  That is why you can only go so far in before you find blocked passageways.  We wanted to originally let you explore the entire castle, find the royal family turned to stone, etc, etc, …but as you know, things had to be cut and this was one of the many things that was easy to have a story reason why not to do it.

-Mark Seibert, March 11, 2006.

Its too bad really, ... If mask of Eternity could have been the game it was meant to be, it would have been rather awesome I think. It sounds as if they had alot more adventure game puzzles, NPCs, and sequences that were intended to be the game but had to be cut due to problems...

However knowing that, it still doesn't explain why they placed it on a mountain cliff when it was originally in a valley... Maybe the castle was magically moved to a new location, LOL. I mean wizards have done it previously, . Or as Derek Karlavaegen has explained previously that the world is in some kind of magical flux, and perhaps the castle is where it always was but a mountain magically arose beneath it (see Great Tear for a similar event) during the time of MOE, and all lands to the west of the castle simply disappeared or shifted west somewhere. Similar to what occured between the time of KQ3, and KQ5 with Serenia.

A little further explantion for the KQ3 chart issue.

According to KQ3 the continent of Daventry was half the size it was in KQ5, and king's Quest companion. This was changed when KQ5 established Serenia to be connected to same continent.

Now Peter Spear explained this descrepancy away, by saying Derek Karlavaegen had told him that the world was always in flux and places were coming and going kingdoms disappearing, whole lands appearing from nowhere, or to disappear later.

He later goes on to explain that Serenia is older than the Kingdom of Davnetry. So apparently Daventry and Serenia were connected before KQ3(probably during the time of Adventures in Serenia as well). However we know that during KQ3 Serenia was simply missing according to the charts. This was confirmed by Alexander's account in the companion as well. We know its reconnected during KQ5.

So its possible that something similar occured during the time of MoE as well. With all lands west of Daventry moved somewhere else. Maybe to return later?

As for questions about Castle Daventry's architecture differences? Well according to the novels, I believe Floating Castle, IIRC, Castle Daventry actually has two throne rooms. The Great Hall(described as it was shown in all early King's Quest games, with the gallery benches, and marble dais), which leads to the courtyard, and bedroom suites off to the side.

As well as a smaller throne room where coronation throne(likely Edward's gold throne as seen in the original KQ1, as the description of the throne seems to match up) was located. It would seem that the really small throne room in MoE, could vary well be the same small throne room mentioned in the novels (it works surprisingly well as a fix, though it may not have been intention of the designers).

As for the main gate? Perhaps that's something that was added onto the castle later on, which didn't exist previously. Maybe was needed for the castle's new location. Or as established by the novels, maybe its one of the castle's other gates, on another side of the castle.

[Aldrius]

...the castle entered through the passageway behind the waterfall is Castle Daventry.  The reason you don’t see much of it is that it was damaged in the opening scene.  That is why you can only go so far in before you find blocked passageways.  We wanted to originally let you explore the entire castle, find the royal family turned to stone, etc, etc, …but as you know, things had to be cut and this was one of the many things that was easy to have a story reason why not to do it.

There's also the issue of the fact that there're only two members of the royal family still living in the castle. (Though they didn't say where Rosella went after KQ7)

Eh, if I remember correctly the area with the mirror didn't look the same. There were definetly no doors off of the main throne room...

Eh. Oh vellz.

[Baggins]

"There's also the issue of the fact that there're only two members of the royal family still living in the castle.  (Though they didn't say where Rosella went after KQ7)"

Actually Roberta Williams implied in one of her interviews that Rosella still lived at the castle at that time. But since we can't get to her room, we are not able to see her. We can't even see the queen(believe me I've read posts from some who have assumed she must be dead since we don't see her in the game.). Its kind of hard to definitely say "rosella" was no longer living there, as we simply don't see all the castle.

"Eh, if I remember correctly the area with the mirror didn't look the same. There were definetly no doors off of the main throne room..."

Yes the throne room was definetly different than the "Great Hall" that was seen in previous games. The mirror niche was missing, the great gallery seats were missing, etc. Infact its closer to the second "small throne" room described in one of the novels.

Actually there is a set of double doors at the end of the small throne room, on the opposite side of the room from the thrones. If you click on the doors it says they are blocked.

You can also see the gate on the map;
http://www.sq7.org/KQ/index.php/Image:Newdaventry2.JPG

[Rosedragon]

Reminds me of something, I need to work on descriptions in my fanfics.
I need to describe the environment, the forests, villages and castle. Ah, interior decorating for  acastle, how fun! There's going to be lots of pretty tapestries! And nice paintings, and flowers in vases...

[Baggins]

Hey, rose if you have any finished fanfics you could either post them up in King's Quest Omnipedia, or post articles that link to them.

I'm probably going to add more descriptions of rooms and locations in the castle than the. I hope you will find those useful,