Thoughts on the direction of villains

[Nilan]

Hi all, I just stumbled upon this place on the web, and I'm glad to see that they're making King's Quest IX: The Silver Lining.

Now if you guys can just do something about Police Quest, Space Quest and oh yeah, Star Control II for good measure, all my prayers would be answered.

Anyway, after reading this I was thinking that while the hero characters of the story are the most important, so are the villians.

The one villian I'd like to return in a big way is Manannan. I know he won't be the main villian, but I think he had the most impact. Most of the villians people seem to rate reflectively on how much the technology was able to represent the characters, but even with the dinky old graphics, Manannan stands out. He's powerful, mature, and doesn't screw around. He's all business. His house isn't even all that creepy -- it doesn't have to be. He even looks like a regular wizard, but just the way they presented him to the player -- he was so powerful and Gwydion was so totally... not. Defeating him was the whole "Only Hobbits can defeat the Dark Lord" sort of thing. No other villian, I found, was as humorless or sparked as much dread, without needing any of the gloomy trappings.

I like to think of him as the more powerful partner in the Manannan-Mordack-Hagatha siblingship, with the other two sort of known to the Black Cloak Society principally as "Oh yeah, Mordack/Hagatha.... you're Manannan's brother/sister". You know, powerful in thier own right, but really, in reputation, living in his shadow.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents on those villians.

[awesomeasapossum]

Nice ideas. Hope you post much more.

[Nilan]

Heh, wouldn't it be cool if it was written that the other two's lives kinda revolved around that scenario? Maybe that Hagatha, as hinted in some places, was once beautiful but disfigured herself in an attempt to become as powerful as her brother?

Or Mordack gave himself into gloomy trappings to inspire the same sort of fear?

This would be totally seperate, I suppose, from TSL's main villian and be tangental to the Black Cloak Society.

I was also wondering to what extent some of these villians are evil in looking at things in more complexity.

For instance, is it correct to think of Manannan as immoral or Amoral. Sure, he kidnaps kids and kills them at 18 -- but in his mind it's the most efficient process so that his own servants don't turn the tables on him.

Is Mordack necessarily totally evil? He has all the trappings, but he doesn't exactly kill anyone. The girl he kidnaps he also plans to marry. Not a god guy to be sure, but still.

I suppose Abdul from KQVI is completely evil and immoral, no arguing that one. Total mofo.

While it's good not to have the heros as completely good, not all the villians have to be totally evil either. And even the more evil ones help to have thier quirks. In the Batman universe, I think mostly only the Joker is totally evil, while Catwoman and the Riddler are not really all that evil at all, and Two-Face is extremely tragic and complex. Additionally, not all of his villians follow the same tack. The Joker is a complete chaotic madman, where Two-Face is more a classic Skitzophrenic who probably needs serious medication, while the Penguin is not insane at all and mostly just a mobster, and Ra's Al Gul is more of a malevolent, global and intelligent figure.

[Storm]

...even with the dinky old graphics, Manannan stands out. He's powerful, mature, and doesn't screw around. He's all business. His house isn't even all that creepy -- it doesn't have to be.

Interesting idea... I always assumed his house looked like a tacky cottage just because they lacked the graphical resources to make a proper forbidding castle

I like to think of him as the more powerful partner in the Manannan-Mordack-Hagatha siblingship...

Where was it said that Hagatha and Mordack/Manannan are siblings?

Is it correct to think of Manannan as immoral or Amoral. Sure, he kidnaps kids and kills them at 18 -- but in his mind it's the most efficient process so that his own servants don't turn the tables on him.

Of course he's immoral! He's kidnapping kids to use as servents then kills them off! that's immoral by anyone's definition

[Master Ghost]

The one villian I'd like to return in a big way is Manannan.

I would like to see him and a whole bunch of villians to return. It would be awesome!!!!!!! 

And from what i have seen it looks like KQIX is going to be good!!!

[Jafar]

Interesting idea... I always assumed his house looked like a tacky cottage just because they lacked the graphical resources to make a proper forbidding castle

I dunno...I think they pulled off Dracula's castle pretty well.

[Boogeyman]

Where was it said that Hagatha and Mordack/Manannan are siblings?

"In his adventures, King Graham has encountered three witches of which I am aware. Dahlia, the mistress of the gingerbread house, he was able to avoid and sneak up upon, pushing her into her own oven. Dame Hagatha, Manannan and Mordack's repulsive sister, he was able to avoid altogether-much to his relief-although he has since said that he regrets not pushing her into her own stewpot when he had the chance."

[Rosedragon]

Let's see, there's Dahlia, the witch in KQ1, and Hagatha the witch in KQ2, the one who imprisons Valanice in a tower, and then there's the nameless witch in KQ5, the one he meets in the dark forest.  It must say that Hagatha is Manannan and Mordack's sister in the KQ companion. I have the KQ collection, and it comes with a guide book that has part of the KQ companion in it, I think.   

[Nilan]

There's a distinct difference between Immoral and Amoral. To be IMmoral is to know something is wrong and do it anyway. To be Amoral is to not really acknowledge it as wrong to begin with.

To me, it seems that if Mannanan was ever freed from being a cat, the first thing he would do is NOT get revenge on the royal family of Daventry -- he'd teleport straight to Llewdor and kick that bugger out of his house!

He'd go about getting revenge later. He seemed to me to be a very busy man who was a wizard who delighted in being evil. He was a wizard, and being evil to him was incidental. He had no tolerance for fools and would sooner kill you than talk to you, but he wasn't what I'd call a sadist. He merely had no patience for those dumber than he was, which was pretty much everyone. But he didn't go out and kill people for fun.

[Moodyblues]

Um... isn't a sadist a person who "delights in being evil?" 

In any case, I'd love to see Manannan in TSL, too!  He definately creeped me out more than any other King's Quest villain, especially when he poofed into a room and just stared at you before barking orders.

[awesomeasapossum]

Hey! Delorias a Mod! Oh...wait....

The direction of the villains? They're just plain mean.

[Nilan]

Sorry, I meant to say "didn't delight in being evil". Not particularly, anyway.

And I'd like to see villains as more than just "plain" mean. I mean there's a time and place for that, but you don't want villians to be indistingushable. You don't want, say, Mannanan and Mordack to be excatly the same except maybe one was younger than the other. And you don't want differences to be just superficial either. Like for instance Hagatha and Mordack being handled exactly the same except one is male and the other female.

[awesomeasapossum]

On an offnote is your username pronounced Ni-(as in it)lan or Ni-(as in Nigh)lan(as in lon)?

[Nilan]

Ni (as in Nigh) lan (as in LAN, or LAN-party).

No 'lon'.

[TheReturnofDMD]

I think Mordack's direction has always been up for some speculation....
Mordack wasn't nessecarily evil, when you think about it. Sure, he had the gloomy trappings as others have said, but the only reason he was presented as being ''evil'' was because he was the enemy.
The only reason he kidnapped Graham's family was to avenge
a member of his own family, his brother.

[Elessar]

I think Mordack's direction has always been up for some speculation....
Mordack wasn't nessecarily evil, when you think about it. Sure, he had the gloomy trappings as others have said, but the only reason he was presented as being ''evil'' was because he was the enemy.
The only reason he kidnapped Graham's family was to avenge
a member of his own family, his brother.

What about his been over-ready to get rid of Graham, or his past as described by Crispin?

[Yonkey]

He also kept Cassima as his own personal slave.

[Rosedragon]

Yeah, kidnapping poor Cassima and keeping her as a slave is mean and evil. His brother Manannan certainly deserved being turned into a cat, he was a kidnapper, an enslaver, and a murderer. If my sister did something wrong and got punished for it, I would not be mad and try to "avenge" her. Then again, this is an evil family we're talking about. Every member of Manannan's family is an evil magic-user. Well, I heard a rumor that the parents had once been good, but the children were corrupted and turned evil by another evil wizard, presumably a member of the Black Cloak Society, out recruiting witches and wizards. I will have all of the KQ villains, plus Shadrack, in my KQ stories.

[Storm]

Where was it said that Hagatha and Mordack/Manannan are siblings?

"...Dame Hagatha, Manannan and Mordack's repulsive sister, he was able to avoid altogether-much to his relief-although he has since said that he regrets not pushing her into her own stewpot when he had the chance."

I guess that's from one of the companions/books, because that info isn't in any of the games. There's also a quote of Roberta Williams to the contrary However, it looks like TSL would assume they are siblings.

There's a distinct difference between Immoral and Amoral. To be IMmoral is to know something is wrong and do it anyway. To be Amoral is to not really acknowledge it as wrong to begin with.

So, you're saying Manannan is Amoral but not IMmoral because he doesn't know what he's doing is wrong? that a tad hard to swallow, considering how smart he's supposed to be.
If someone can tell the difference between right and wrong, and still chooses to do WRONG, he can't hide behind the 'Amoral' argument

He seemed to me to be a very busy man who was a wizard who didn't delight in being evil. He was a wizard, and being evil to him was incidental. He had no tolerance for fools and would sooner kill you than talk to you, but he wasn't what I'd call a sadist. He merely had no patience for those dumber than he was, which was pretty much everyone. But he didn't go out and kill people for fun.

From the KQ4 manual:

"...Manannan kept a watchful eye upon the kingdoms of the world.  With a sardonic grin, he watched as the three-headed dragon rampaged its way towards Daventry.  Manannan's hatred of mankind had intensified with his great age, and his coal-black eyes burned a strange reflection upon the glass of the crystal as he mirthfully watched another human swallowed whole by the vicious beast.  Preferring his solitude, the powerful Manannan only allowed himself to be observed by one servant-boy, who maintained his house and performed all of his menial chores.  Of course, Manannan could have conjured up spirits to do his dirty work, but he much preferred to see the strain and toil of a young mortal suffering under his thrall..."

Maybe he's not killing people for fun, but taking pleasure in someone else's suffering sounds pretty sadistic to me

In any case, I'd love to see Manannan in TSL, too!  He definately creeped me out more than any other King's Quest villain, especially when he poofed into a room and just stared at you before barking orders.

Ahh, the staring! after a while you got really good at typing "look manannan" and "talk manannan" in under 3 seconds

Mordack wasn't nessecarily evil, when you think about it. Sure, he had the gloomy trappings as others have said, but the only reason he was presented as being ''evil'' was because he was the enemy.
The only reason he kidnapped Graham's family was to avenge
a member of his own family, his brother.

He wasn't avenging, he was trying to help his brother. If he was after revenange he could simply kill or torture Alex instead of just threatening him.

He also kept Cassima as his own personal slave.

But he was only doing a favour for a friend! If your Black-Cloackian brother asked you for a favour, would you refuse?

His brother Manannan certainly deserved being turned into a cat, he was a kidnapper, an enslaver, and a murderer. If my sister did something wrong and got punished for it, I would not be mad and try to "avenge" her.

Maybe Mordack didn't know about all that? maybe Manannan lied and told him some bullsh*t story where he was the innocent party and Alex was the villian? maybe Mordack was innocent all along?


You see? posts like this is what happens when I don't check up on a thread regularly

[Baggins]

"I guess that's from one of the companions/books,"

The quote is definitely from companion, an authorized and official spinoff material. Though not mentioned in any of Sierra's games except, King's Questions.

"because that info isn't in any of the games."

Actually you can find the same info(well the part about them being related as brothers and sister) in "King's Questions", a king's quest trivia game released with certain editions of King's Quest Collection.

"Which of the following evil people is not related to the others?

a. Tabitha

b. Manannan

c. Hagatha

d. Mordack"

"There's also a quote of Roberta Williams to the contrary  However, it looks like TSL would assume they are siblings"

Well you'll find that alot of things with Roberta Williams are contrary. Sometimes she simply forgets details about the games when she answers questions. ...or other designers added their own things into the games stories that weren't necessarily invented by Roberta, so they are not part of her knowledge. This is especially true in later games, where she was more of concept producer, but let everyone else be in charge of what went on in the games.

Interesting enough as far as Roberta Williams is concerned there is no Society of the Black Cloak, it wasn't something she came up with, and only briefly discussed with Jane Jensen. So it was possible that had official King's Quest games continued that Shadrack may never even shown up at all, unless Jane Jensen was involved with the story.

The "Black Cloak Society" was never an actual term that I instigated or thought up. I'm not actually sure where that came from. The closest thought that I have on that subject is that: when I was working with Jane Jensen on King's Quest 6, and we thought up the evil vizier, we talked loosely about the possibility of putting Mannanan, Mordack, and the vizier together as group -- possibly -- in a future King's Quest. There was loose reference to the possibility in King's Quest 6, although nothing was set in stone at that time. I think that it's possible that Jane Jensen might have mentioned the possibility (perhaps) in subsequent interviews on the subject, although, I'm not sure about that. Later on, I heard about the Black Cloak Society and kind of wondered where that phrase came from, but, I never refuted it as I thought it was kind of cool and, probably, would have gone on with the idea in future King's Quests had I had the chance. And, one final thing: Hagatha was never part in any discussion of a Black Cloak Society.- Roberta Williams at SierraGamers (6-9-2003)

"He also kept Cassima as his own personal slave. "

But he was only doing a favour for a friend! If your Black-Cloackian brother asked you for a favour, would you refuse?"

Well actually he kept her as his personal slave because she refused to marry him, as stated in KQ5, . He felt by punishing her that way he could some how convince her to marry him...