Medieval Realism

[Shades2585]

One could say it’s in a parallel dimension and that travelers from that dimension told stories of their dimension and it became what we now know of mythological stories and fairy tails.

[Baggins]

Well, conceit behind Spear account is that our fairy tales, and myths are actually true history, and are real events that happened in the past.

Just in our persuit of science down through the history, we forgot what really happened, and began to doubt validity of the events, thinking them to be only legends and myths. With philosphies such as Scientific Method, winning out, ideas such as faith, began to lose credibility and people no longer believed the stories.

Science won over magic, and those that practiced magic were forced to hide, many were burned at the stake for being witches. Those that survived started to leave this world for the other to get away from persecution.

[Shades2585]

That reminds me of an animated cartoon I watch along time ago but don’t remember what it is right now.

[Baggins]

Shade could it be "David the Gnome"?

The very first episode had the same kind of conceit. Started out showing real shots of the bustling cities, smog, cars, etc. Then he talked about showing his world, the one that existed in the forests, hidden to most of humanity that chose to think they were only myth.


I think to put it into better perspective, I better quote a few passages directly from the book.

"We here in daventry are your decendents-the sons of your sons and daughers of your daughters from generations and centuries back. And that's just the humanfolk. We are also your dreams and nightmares, your myths, legend and stories. WE are the reality that much of humanity has rejected over time-the unicorns, centaurs, and demigods. We are the other races of beings who evolved alongside humanity---the dwarfs, the elves, gnomes, giants and fairies. We are the users of the magic that you say does not and cannot exist. We are the truth behind what you dismiss as mere legend, and we are the flesh that became your fairy tales.

Once you you could see the other creatures that shared your world; once you too could create ointments of invisibility; once you too could talk with animals, and they would talk back; and once, you too could mount a winged horse and fight the dragons of the earth. Now you say that if you cannot, see, feel, touch, hold, measure, dissect, count, smell, taste, deduce, or duplicate something, it cannot be real. If you cannot find its bones, it never existed. You see yourselves as the center of the unvierse, the focus of all creation, and you see that it is good. In doing so, you miss much.

When the universe was younger and humanity less proud, giants did roam the earth and magic kept the forces of chaos and darkness at bay. All of the races of the earth struggled for their survival, sometimes together, sometimes against each other. In time it was the humanfolk who proved the strongest, both by the force of their magics and the number of their people. Uneasy peace existed for millenia as the humans moved from their caves and their forests to build their first cities. The places they deserted--the wild and free places--were left to the others.

As the centuries passed, more of humanity condensed into its cities and towns, and the passing years saw less and less of the dwafs, and elves, and other beings. Humanity was fruitful and spread its masses over more and more of the earht, squeezing the dragons, and the unicorns, and other creatures into smaller and smaller places, remote from humans. As humanfolk saw less and less of thse beings and creatures, they began to say that they did not exist, and that hte stories told of them and their deeds and adventures were myth, legend, folklore, and fairy story. AS humanfolk built more and more across the world, they begain to place more and more faith in their numbers and philosophies and technologies than they did in magic and nature. The world went out of balance.

Magic, like mathematics needs faith and belif to operate properly, With humanity, walled up in cities and towns, isolated from the natural world by roofs and ledgers, magic was scoffed at and dismissed as fantasy and deception. In time humanity came to not only reject magical, strange, unique, and different, but to fear and condemn them. True, in some areas belief did not go entirely away. True, many of the other folk and creatures of the world survived hidden in their secret places. And true, some did continue to practice magical craft. But the weight of disbelief was upon them, and like ripe grain at harvest time, they could see the thrashers coming.

To survive we withdrew.

As the centuries passed, it became apparent to our ancestors that much of reality--the irrational and magical--was doomed to extinction. They had knowledge of the passing of the lizardfolk, who had owned the earth and roamed the stars before the evolution of the mammals that would become humanity. Our ancestors did not choose to follow those creatures into oblivion.

A great conclave was called--a meeting between representives of all the colors of magic and all the kinds of little folk. Fairies, and elves, and demigods were there, as were the special folk who watched over the more magical creatures. They decide that their only chance for survival was to find a new home far away from the swaggering, doubting, humanfolk.--- not just out of their sight, but outside of their constrained reality. All differences were put aside, and all efforts wre to be made to create, through the use of magic, invocation, and elemental powers, an entirely new universe far away from that of humans.

In time the spells were forged as we learned how to create our own reality, our own new world. It was a one-way path; once gone, it would be impossible  to return for the natural laws would not allow it. Always forward, never back, is one  of the elements of spell casting. For that raeson, not all chose to withdraw. Many also wished to remain for other reasons, and no one was forced to go. Most whent then-the good and the evil, safe and dangerous, big and small, magical, fabulous, and ordinary. A complete world was populated in an instant with beasts and monsters and all the different kind of folk.

IN some cases, even the homes and possesions of the more powerful were transported. As a result of the first great migration, cataclysms tore at the earth. Earthquakes rocked and volcanoes spat their lava into the sky--such were the forces needed to withdraw so many."

Ok I must take a break I'll continue transcribing passages later...

[Petra Rocks]

I think I get the idea.  If this is put back that far I guess I can't say much about it, that is beyond any reach of history.  It is the realm of the chemist and paleontologist, and I know little of those arts.  Sometimes I wonder how much they really know either, but that's another story. 

[Shades2585]

Shade could it be "David the Gnome"?

It’s a theme that has been used several times over the years but no I don’t think that was the show. I think it had something to do with dragons and that it was the big evil dragon that was trying to destroy magic buy getting people to believe in magic.

[Baggins]

Ahh doesn't ring a bell...

But Disney's Gargoyle's also had the same theme.

As did the game a few years ago, Longest Journey, and its new sequel Dreamfall.

Anyways let me continue;

Where those first folk went, and where I live now, is as real and solid as your world, the one we call the Other World. It exists as just one universe amid infitinite others in the greater reality of (for want of a better name) the multiverse. Daventry exists just over your shoulder, if you could only turn around fast enough to see it. I sit writing this to you just around the corner of an eyeblink. We are so close that you sometimes dream of us, as we do of yo. And that is why I send you these messages.

Many other times over the centuries have folk withdrawan from your universe, forced to escape as the rational world fenched them tighter and forgave their differences less. Great eruptions and earthquakes are the signs of their passing. It is your great loss and our great gain for, over the millenia, each new withdrawal gives us fresh life and new wonders. Always we reinvent ourselves, because, in our world of magic, everything is possible. As you have rejected it, all magic eventually comes here.

[Petra Rocks]

Yes, as I understand your case a really long time ago all the magic things packed up and headed for another dimesion or someplace, and lived happily ever after, doubtless saving a few princesses on the way.    It's not very good history, since in most cases literacy proceeded urbanization or any scale, but this is Kings Quest, not a doctoral thesis.     It is not that uncommon a tale, even Tolkien uses it.  You really don't have to keep typing in pages of text for my sake, though of course if you want to be my guest. 

[Baggins]

You really don't have to keep typing in pages of text for my sake

It wasn't for your sake, I said I'd finish up posting up the quotes for anyone else who was interested.

It's not very good history, since in most cases literacy proceeded urbanization or any scale

What does literary have to do with it, which would prevent it from being "good history"?

In the conceit behind the story what is written in fantasy and fairy tale books, scrolls, documents, etc, and even some of the Horror books, are actually true history recorded by ancient historians, and modern mind just scoffs at the events as if they were just fantasy or fiction. Much as you are doing yourself  right now. You are doing exactly the kind of thing Derek was referring to, and rediculed in his writing, the skeptics and so called rational minds, LOL(Don't worry I don't believe in fantasy either, but just going along with the story for suspension of disbelief).

So ya the idea is that many written works were made before fantastic beings were forced into remote areas, and they chronicled real historical events on earth, rather than fictional stories. But as urbanization became more common, and time passed, the stories were slowly believed just to be fantasy, fairytales, folklore, legends and myth, by the skeptical and rational minds.

But like I said that's just the conceit behind the the story, and takes a bit of willing suspension of disbelief.

[Baggins]

Oh I just remembered something the KQ1 manual mentioned the Plague. It was the plague that took Edward's wife.

With famine came the dreaded Plague, and the Queen was stricken. For three days she lay in the grip of a great fever, with Edward maintaining a constant vigil by her side.

[Jafar]

Well, it COULD just be a generic plague.

[Baggins]

Well calling it "The Dreaded Plague" seems a bit more than just a generic plague heh heh.

[Rosedragon]

What about all of the characters from classical mythology? Neptune, Medusa, Cupid, the oracle, minotaur, pegasus, etc... Thne there are characters from fairytales and other mythology/folklore.

[Petra Rocks]

Well calling it "The Dreaded Plague" seems a bit more than just a generic plague heh heh.

  It would probably just mean the plague of the moment (tm).  People in the Middle ages were free with adjectives, and didn't reserve a word like "Dreaded" for one particular illness.  But that would actually add to a feeling of Medeival realism, not detract from it. Actually, if plagues were still around it would also increase the chances of Daventry living in a pre-industrial state which would directly impact our debate on life-expectancy.  But I digress......

What does literary have to do with it, which would prevent it from being "good history"?

Sorry I didn't see this before.  Literacy proceeds urbanization above village level in all cases I am aware of.  It is simply too difficult to organize government above chiefdom level without it, and without government cities are practically impossible.  I could provide historical examples, but I'll spare you.    

are actually true history recorded by ancient historians

If you can provide me with a document written by a contemporary author I'll go with it.   

You are doing exactly the kind of thing Derek was referring to, and ridiculed in his writing, the skeptics and so called rational minds, LOL

  Awwwwww... Am I killing the cute wittle pixie wabitt? 

[Baggins]

Sorry I didn't see this before.  Literacy proceeds urbanization above village level in all cases I am aware of.  It is simply too difficult to organize government above chiefdom level without it, and without government cities are practically impossible.  I could provide historical examples, but I'll spare you. 

Remember some of these ancient "historical documents" are written by races that that predate humans, elves for example. Such as the writings of the "lizardfolk" which were evolved from dinosaurs that predate human civilization and left for the stars.

...Or the writings if Cthulu and the old gods such as the necronomicon.

Documents hidden away and found by later people, and copied into modern language text. So essentially the fairy tales and legends we know about are only known as they came from other races historical records, or by humans that discovered copies of the previous records, or humans that lived with fairy civilizations from time to time and have those written records, or wrote their own records of their time in the fairy kingdoms. These records are then discovered by someone by someone that comes after but still in the past, thus why we still know of the stories.

So the question is not really if literature predating civilization, but from which civilization did it originally come from, and were our own civilizations seeded from an ancient lost civilization that came before.

Its interesting fact for example that Troy was believed to be entirely fictional city and only part of mythology. However it was the written  mythology lead to where it existed, and thus it was found in real life.

So mythology proved to be in part a document of history. Does that mean the gods were involved with its downfall in the true history? No...

But conceit behind Peter Spear's story is that they were involved, and that Helen of Troy actually existed (she's mentioned in KQ6), and that the Gods of rome and greece really were around in those ancient times. Olympus was apparently a real location.

Well I can add more to the topic from text from Peter Spear's POV from the introduction;

Several of the messages that I received talk about how the universe withdrew from ours through the use of magical forces, driven by the desire of the various fantastical inhabitants to exist apart from the scoffing of an increasingly rational and scientific world. That which cannot be weighed, measured, or stuffed inside the laws of thermodynamics used its own curious, but no less effective, laws to escape. And where they escaped to, whether another universe, or another physical dimensino, is a place that our own scientific theories say is entirely plausible.

By the conceit, egyptian mythology in tombs are actually historical documents written down at the time of the events, or rerecorded from previous hyroglyphics that recorded the events.

Egyptians withdrew to daventry during one of the withdrawals.

Some of the roman and greeks came through during their era as well, thus why their archetecture is found in Daventry.

H.P. Lovecraft was not actually a fiction writer, but actually wrote "historical" books from first or second hand accounts, or from secret writings he himself discovered, Heh Heh.

Etc, Etc.

One explanation put forth by a numter of reputalbe scientists argues that there exists in reality an unknown number of different universes. These could even be thought as different regions of the same universe, but in either case theory allows for these "pocket universes" to have their own unique sets of the laws of science and nature. Another theory states that the universe is not made up of invidiual particles, like atoms and electrons, but instead composed of strings==strange things that are long, but not high nor wide, and have no other dimension. This theory only makes scientific sense however, if our universe has more than 4 dimensions to which we are accostomed; 26 dimensions is one number given. The reason we don't see these other dimensions is that they're all folded up on themselves, but they are there, nonethelesss. Could these also be pocket universes? Is this what Alexander of Daventry means when he writes of the "Multiverse". Is daventry in one of these pocket universes.

Interesting point Peter Spear still keeps up the ruse that what he accounts is true history in all chapters of the book, even his acknowledgement's page LOL. I talked to him during the special event, and he jokingly mentioned he still "receives" documents from the other world. 

[Petra Rocks]

I suspect this is off topic but since the last time I tried to make a thread it got merged back I'll wait for a mod to say so. Even if I do forfeit a chance to make another *creative* thread title.   

   

So the question is not really if literature predating civilization, but from which civilization did it originally come from, and were our own civilizations seeded from an ancient lost civilization that came before.

Actually civilization precedes literature, large-scale urbanization follows writing.    And literature somes after writing, usually after syllabary or alphabet... but I'm rambling.  Too much Guns, Germs, and Steel for the old noggin I guess. Anyhow, it all would have had to take place tens of thousands of years ago at least to erase all trace. 

Its interesting fact for example that Troy was believed to be entirely fictional city and only part of mythology. However it was the written  mythology lead to where it existed, and thus it was found in real life.

Schliemann confirmed the existence of a city called Troy, not the accuracy of the Iliad.  Homer's works were not written, but part of any oral tradition that stretched varying amounts of time depending on if you use the High chronology or the Low chronology, and which variation of said chronology.  Anyway, the existence of a Ulysses is speculation, not a pr oven fact, and few (or none) take the parts about Amazons and what-not seriously. 



Anyhow, none of this is to say that KQ is dumb or that we are all silly for playing with fairy tales (else I wouldn't be here).  I'm simply pointing out that it would be very difficult for a culture to exist on earth side by side with known ones without us knowing about it.  About alternate dimensions I know nothing, thats a game for physics-maths people, and I can barely solve simultaneous equations.    It all part of that suspension of disbelief and if I can deal with flying horses I can deal with a few anomalies in the historical record. Lord knows *we* don't know it all. 

[Baggins]

Actually civilization precedes literature, large-scale urbanization follows writing.    And literature somes after writing, usually after syllabary or alphabet... but I'm rambling.  Too much Guns, Germs, and Steel for the old noggin I guess. Anyhow, it all would have had to take place tens of thousands of years ago at least to erase all trace. 

Yes and my point was, "which civilization predated the literature", was it the civilization of the elves, maybe the fairies? Maybe it was Lizardfolk. Maybe it was old ones. The idea is that these stories we have now were previously written by some civilization... Which one doesn't really matter... But somewho the documents survived to this time.

Schliemann confirmed the existence of a city called Troy, not the accuracy of the Iliad.   Homer's works were not written, but part of any oral tradition that stretched varying amounts of time depending on if you use the High chronology or the Low chronology, and which variation of said chronology.  Anyway, the existence of a Ulysses is speculation, not a pr oven fact, and few (or none) take the parts about Amazons and what-not seriously.

Again you missed my point entirely... I mentioned accuracy issue. We would believe that legends aren't accurate. But the conceit behind the story is that it was the myth that was accurate, and everything written in it really happened. It was either copied from first or second hand accounts(oral or lost written documents), or were actually from primary sources.

Those that say it isn't "proven fact' are infact the ones that have lost records and don't know what really happened, or are revisionist historians. When it was people and races that withdrew that kept better records(on parchment, books, magical and alien record spheres, or whatever they could put a record into) than majority of the earth before they crossed over.

Sure I know what its like in real world, but the conceit of the story is that what we believe in our skeptical and scientific nature has gotten history all wrong. We as modern historians essentially rewrote history to remove all refrences to magical and mystical that "really" occured because we just can't accept them since we don't see it evidence of it occuring today.

Anyhow, none of this is to say that KQ is dumb or that we are all silly for playing with fairy tales (else I wouldn't be here).  I'm simply pointing out that it would be very difficult for a culture to exist on earth side by side with known ones without us knowing about it. 

Actually quite a few cultures have been found to have existed along side  other cultures at the same time. But the reason we don't know much about those cultures except from a few second or third hand accounts, is because either they were seperated by remote areas and could not easily trade with each other, or didn't travel much to other locations staying tied to their own cities.

,,,Or other times while they may have wrote about those other cities, the documents were destroyed so we no longer have those records, and are left to 3rd, 4th, etc, generation repords.

The point of troy was that before troy was found, not even the city was belived to have existed. Even the city was considered myth. Because all that existed of it was second or third generation accounts, and all primary accounts did not make it through to this day either having been destroyed by invading armies, or by natural causes.

Believe me ancient history is complicated there is so much we don't know, and archeologists are always maing various hypothesis to try to explain things they do do not understand, based on pieces of trash, since they don't have records telling them what happened exactly.

[Petra Rocks]

Yes and my point was, "which civilization predated the literature", was it the civilization of the elves, maybe the fairies? Maybe it was Lizardfolk. Maybe it was old ones. The idea is that these stories we have now were previously written by some civilization... Which one doesn't really matter... But somewho the documents survived to this time.

which civilization predated the literature", was it the civilization of the elves

somewho the documents survived to this time.

Wait, I'm missing something.  How can any civilization that "predates literature"  have "surviving documents" 

Again you missed my point entirely... I mentioned accuracy issue. We would believe that legends aren't accurate. But the conceit behind the story is that it was the myth that was accurate, and everything written in it really happened. It was either copied from first or second hand accounts(oral or lost written documents), or were actually from primary sources.

I think I understand now.  Historians assume the burden of proof lies on the one who says magic has been practiced, this case says it lies on those who say it has not.  But there were no first hand accounts of the fall of Troy, or at least it is doubtful, since neither side had a written language IIRC. 


As I will be the first to acknowledge, we have only scattered accounts of ancient times.  We could not prove that such accounts are untrue. As you say, we know little more of Urartu or Azara or even the mighty Harappans than the name.  We could not prove that such things did not happen. My point was, a kingdom like Daventry with castles etc could not be so easily swallowed as a flying horse. 

[Baggins]

Wait, I'm missing something.  How can any civilization that "predates literature"  have "surviving documents" 

You are assuming human civilization. I'm referring to non-human civilizations that were "supposed" to have lived on the earth pre-human civilization. But most records supporting their existence has rotted or was destroyed, along with their cities.

So some mythology we have now actually originates from these previous civilizations, either from second, third, fourth generation accounts. People living in Daventry have more accurate accounts as they brought history they wrote over with them.

I think I understand now.  Historians assume the burden of proof lies on the one who says magic has been practiced, this case says it lies on those who say it has not.  But there were no first hand accounts of the fall of Troy, or at least it is doubtful, since neither side had a written language IIRC. 

Those that withdrew had first hand accounts, including hte gods that withdrew. The shield of Achille for example exists in their world. They took the more accurate records with them.

All that survived into our world are 4th generation, 5th generation accounts or older. As any previous documents that existed were either destroyed or rotted away over time.

Daventry is not unlike Camelot and there are many people that believe it existed... But during or just after roman times. But even then records for that time are sketchy at best. Either records were destroyed, or left to oral tradition. Thus why the "truth" arthur(if one existed) may not necessarily be the same as the legendary Arthur(however legendary is the one that existed according to Daventry's more detailed records, and the fact it own's Merlin's Mirror).

So it would seem Daventry might actually follow Camelot, if they didn't share the same period of time..

[Petra Rocks]

Well, if some beings from another dimensions pirated all our source documents from Dark Ages Greece, that would explain the High Chronology-Low Chronology debate (well, sort of).    It all starts to fit...

Seriously, it is an interesting theory.  Obviously it wouldn't last .01 seconds in a serious academic setting, nut then they are all a bunch of rationalists anyway.    It pushes itself safely beyond what can be proved, and so exists in the realm of pure speculation. As speculation without documents or evidence on either side argument consists of little more than me asserting one assumption and you another, the most pointless kind of debate in existence (barring flamewars)