Timelines, Age and Death

[Yonkey]

I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread, but Baggins did some awesome work on the TSL Timeline that even compares it with the official and AGDI one.  I definitely recommend reading that site.

[Baggins]

Thanks, Yonkey glad you have enjoyed it.

[Yonkey]

No problem. I look forward to seeing more TSL updates on the KQ Omnipedia, now that the TSL Public Demo is out.

[Baggins]

I've added the December 1617 to the TSL timeline in the omnipedia now that we have a firm date for when Shadows begins, seeing that it is Rosella's and Alexander's birthday.

I've also moved all KQIX Timeline category refrences to the newly created, "The Silver Lining Timeline" Category.

[Baggins]

it has alot of problems, and needs protecting and constant support

It has a military(as per the novels), and the shield of invincibility to help defend it from enemies. Plus the mirror to predict what enemies will do before they do it. As well as unlimited amounts of gold from a magic chest to support the army.

marry Conner to rule Daventry with him

Connor is married to Sarah in TSL history.

I don't think Connor was ever a canditate in Roberta's history either.

I

think he owes the people too much money and has to return to many of the chickens he's killed to have time to become King.

Connor doesn't owe anyone money considering that he saved their lives, and besides if he did he made back way more than he took from the people of his village, in other areas, from ancient tombs and monsters he killed. He could replace the chickens many times over.

After all, we don't actual;ly know how long people live in the King's Quest world.  Maybe the average age is 120.

Actually the spinoff literature(novels, guides and manuals) actually hints at age limits of people. Wizards and the like tend to live longer than the average human. Crispin is tens of thousand sof years old for example(so he may not be entirely human). While on the other hand the wizard Morowyn, is at least 100 years old, but had to use a spell to turn himself into a tree in order to extend his life.

Average human only lives to between 70-90. Much like most humans on earth now. We are directly related to them of course.

Around age 80 is considered old age, and severe senility sets in as was the case with Master Rokail, forcing him to retire.

In Green Isles we know that in the last 100 years that at least four kings have ruled over the Castle of the Crown, Aliphid, Aliphim,  Caliphim, and Alexander.

We do not know the names of the kings that were between Aliphid and Aliphim, and Aliphim and Caliphim.

[Baggins]

It I probably should point out that Graham was described as being no longer young at age 42(in the original timeline), which was the age he was in King's Quest 4... He had also grown grey hair as well. Heart Attack is considered an ailment of "old age", even if can age someone earlier than if the person never had heart disease.


BTW, the King's Quest novels also have the same copyright information as the King's Quest companion. They are infact a form of secondary canon. The old Sierra Interaction magazine used to make a big deal about them as well, along with the Companion.

...and sure TSL isn't canon, but it has its own continuity, and the novels are part of TSL's timeline if you didn't know.

From the Guidebook it would seem average life span for a green islander is somewhere between 40-70 years, based on history of the castle of the crown's kings, and life is easier in the Green Isles than in Daventry.  Having an easier life is sure to increase their average lifespan.

Hassan considers himself old in the companion, when he is probably in his 40's at the most.

[Petra Rocks]

Dropping in a quick word of dubious topicality, I will note that life expectancy depends heavily on living standard and medical technology.   In the modern US average life expectancy is 70-something, in Afghanistan 40.  All things together if Daventry is at a pre-modern living standard the average life span my by closer to 50-60 for a upper-class man past childhood illness rather than the 70 people are assuming now. 

[Baggins]

I'd say its probably somewhere between 40-60 for Daventry based on all the manuals and off hand remarks that can be found int he games text occasionally. Which seem to be in line with the secondary spin off literature as well.

Life is quite a bit harsher in Daventry than in Green Isles.

We have more idea of Green Isles lifespan than in Daventry thanks to the guidebook. In green isles life is fairly easy and layed back, and quite a bit more advanced culturally and technology wise.

[Baggins]

Even in the King's Quest world, in KQ7, Rosella is nearly 20 years old and she would soon be considered an ''old maid'' if she didn't marry.

I came across an interesting factoid in MoE manual. Apparently turning 20 is considered reaching marriable age in Daventry, rather than becoming an "old maid". Apparently anything before then is considered marrying young in Daventry.

I guess it makes some sense. Graham didn't marry until he was about age 22 in the official timeline. He had been looking for a wife when he was about 20 or 21.

Maybe if a woman doesn't get married by 25-30, then maybe they are considered an "old maid".

[TheGreatGraham]

   That would make sense, except that it is impossible Graham was 42 during KQIV.  He was the greatest knight in Daventry by King's Quest I.  To be the greatest knight, he would probably have to be at least thirty, but let's say he was 25.  One year after KQI he headed out on his adventure in KQII.  One or two years later he and Valanice had their two kids, and almost eighteen years later KQIII occurred.  That, all added together, means Graham was almost 50.  Note that they were never expecting Graham to fall ill, and it seems apparent he wasn't seen as overly old-aged.  Also read about King Edward, and it seems to indicate Daventry fell apart very slowly, and he was already middle-aged by the time he lost his first treasure.
This is of course discounting sickness and poor health, which does not seem to be overly rampant in Daventry (though they do live harder than on the green isles).  Has anybody notticed how many old people are seen in Daventry though?  Off the top of my head there was an old gnome in KQI, and Edward was very old, in KQIII it shows another old guy (assuming this isn't the same one, well if it was he looked old twenty years before and was still living.)  The youngest people seen in the early KQs is the woodcutter and his wife, who were sick (which could indicate a shorter life span, except that they survived).  I see no reason the average life span, discounting sickness, could not reach 70.  Again I'll say that though this is PERHAPS based off Earth in the distant past, it is still a fairy tale, and the basic fairy tale nature is for people to live longer rather than shorter.
  As for the Green Isles, I don't see why your saying their average life span was 40-60 years.  You mentioned four kings in a 100 year timespan.  Alexander would have been at the end of that span, so with the other three kings, they would have reigned an average of thirty-three years each.  NOw, that means in 100 years to of those kings died (since Cassima's parents apparently had a few years left, and they gave their kingdom to Alexander and Cassima.)  Anyway, a person usually would not become king until they are thirty, or whenever their parents died.   I'm assuming the first of these four kings became a king after he was twenty.  If you go through due process, even discounting any king who died by illness or before his time, the kings would be averaging an age over sixty.  And except from the kings, we can't estimate the average age of people onj the green isles, because most of the beings of the green isles are not human beings, but dogs and tree stumps.
  All this goes to say that I'm guessin 60-80 for average without disaster or illness.  Say I'm wrong if you like, but  it's my opinion.
   Also, I consent as to the trilogy being a secondary canon the same as the companion, but to me it is still SECONDARY canon.  I would not expect any future game to be forced to follow the novels to come up with a coherent story.  Canon is really in the eye of the beholder, since the best stories leave some facts to be decided by the audience.

[Baggins]

That would make sense, except that it is impossible Graham was 42 during KQIV.  He was the greatest knight in Daventry by King's Quest I.  To be the greatest knight, he would probably have to be at least thirty, but let's say he was 25.

 

Graham was 19 in King's Quest 1 according to the manuals and official strategy guides to the games, and yet he was still Edward's greatest and most favorite knight...

I quote an example;

"King Graham was a young man of barely nineteen years when he was summoned to appear before King Edward the Benevolent. The old king was dying, and he bid Graham, a promising young knight, and son of the King's best friend to undergo a dangerous quest."-King's Quest VI

I guess it had to do with the fact most of his older knights had been killed during the border wars during the last years of his reign.

One year after KQI he headed out on his adventure in KQII.

According to KQ4, his adventures in Kolyma occured 3 years after KQ1.

 

One or two years later he and Valanice had their two kids, and almost eighteen years later KQIII occurred.

 

According to KQ4, they had their children 2 years after KQ2.

KQ3 happens about 18 years later. KQ4 occurs directly after KQ3.  KQ5 is about 1 year after KQ4. KQ6 occurs 1 year after KQ5.

That, all added together, means Graham was almost 50.

Nope added together 19 + 3 + 2 + 18 + 1 + 1, it makes him 44 during KQ6. KQ7 occurs the same year as KQ6, as both Alexander and Rosella both 19 in KQ6 and KQ7.  As for MoE all is known is "Graham is now Old"(and appears more frail and wrinkled in the game than all previous games), there is no specific date however to when it occured. If it was at least 10 years after KQ7, Graham would be about 54.

Gnomes

Also you bring up gnomes. Gnomes are not human, and therefore do not even have same lifespans as humans. In the games/manuals/strategyguides, its said that gnomes live much longer than humans.

Infact MOE implies that Gnomes may infact be immortal.

The age of gnomes is irrelevent to a discussion on ages of humans.

   As for the Green Isles, I don't see why your saying their average life span was 40-60 years.  You mentioned four kings in a 100 year timespan.

No those are only four of the kings during that time period that had been named. There were others in between. Aliphim was not Caliphim's father.

Aliphid ruled about about 100 years before Caliphim, and Aliphim ruled after him, about 80-90 years before Caliphim going by the dates in the Guidebook. The names of the King's between them and Caliphim are unknown.

we can't estimate the average age of people onj the green isles, because most of the beings of the green isles are not human beings, but dogs and tree stumps.

We were discussing average "human" life expectency, not dogs and tree stumps and creatures. Those are all irrelevent to average human life expectency, seeing as they are not human.

I would not expect any future game to be forced to follow the novels to come up with a coherent story.

The novels do not contradict anything. Infact two of them are set in between King's Quest 2 and 3 (so they fit since they came after those games were released and were able to have the hindsight in order tie into that unknown period of time). While the 3rd book in the series is set between 5 and 6(again it came after King's Quest 6 so it had hind sight in order to allow it to fit without stepping on any other material). King's Quest 7 and 8 do not even contradict them. All the games between 1-7 including the novels which are set before KQ6 are all quite coherent with the story.

Hell, King's Quest 8 did more to be incoherrent with previous games and their storylines. For example, the Castle Daventry in the game basically contradicts the castle seen in all previous games. Oddly enough the novels left a way out to explain away that discrepency by explaining that the castle had two throne rooms, one is described like the one seen through King's Quest 6, while the second one is described like the one seen in King's Quest 8.

Another example, is the map of Daventry in MoE is not in line with the layout of the land as seen in all previous games.

Also I don't know why your argueing about their relevance or irrelevence in "canon" in contrast to unofficial fan made game. Because as I said before, they are already part of TSL's timeline. There is no reason to argue there non-existence as TSL has already tied them into their storyline's history. As far as TSL is concerned they are primary sources instead of just secondary.

[Petra Rocks]

 Probably off-topic, but it may help the current topic.
 
I'm not sure we have a large enough demographic to draw conclusions about average lifespan.     In a pre-industrial society 40-50 is about right, but that rule wasn't made with fariy tales in mind. it also varies per social status. 

   As for the Green Isles, I don't see why your saying their average life span was 40-60 years.  You mentioned four kings in a 100 year timespan.

  That's not shocking even with Middle ages lifespans. For example England only had 6 monarchs between 1100 and 1200, one lasted a year due to civil war and the last took power in 1199.  You only need to get rid of a coup and add to year to the last one's life to get 4 in 100 years. 

[Baggins]

Actually we don't know how many kings were during that 100 year period. We know of 2 near the beginning, and 2 towards the end(Caliphim's father is mentioned in the Companion). No idea how many in between. Alexander actually came in about  120 years after Aliphid (about 20 years had passed since Derek wrote his book, and when Alexander became king).

[Petra Rocks]

 I know, but even if there wre only 4, its not a shock, nor does it need god-like lifespans.  Having ten kings in only 100 years means you've been having a lot of coups. 

[Baggins]

...or they have been eating alot of greasy and unhealthy food, and suffering from strokes, clots, and heart disease due to obesity...

...or other health factors...

Coups weren't the only things that shortened lifespans in earlier times.


Let's say it was only four in 100 years, without any form of coup, and they all just died of old age. That would make each king's term on average 25 years give or take a few years, if first king started his term at the start of the 100 years.

If the first king was 25 when he first became king, then that would make average life span for all of the kings about 50-60 years give or take.

Which is about 25 years until they become a king, and about 25 years to rule until they die and pass on the crown to their heirs.

Its a rough approximation, as when each king's son grows up could vary. Each king's death could vary. When each son becomes the new king could vary. Its certainly not going to be identical circumstances for each new king.

[TheGreatGraham]

    The reason I brought up tree stumps and dogs is because besides the kings, there are no other life forms in the Green Isles.  The only reference you have to indicate your theory is that there may have been ten kings in a hundred year span.  As petra said, that proves nothing either way.  If you look in the middle ages, or at other times, there are many reasons besides death that would cause a king to lose his crown.  There's a story about a king who ruled for seven days, and then was murdered. 
  To me all this adds up to what Petra already said.  We don't have enough information on this point.  THis leaves pretty much just the point concerning the age of people in the middle ages.
   My argument for this is
    1:It's a fairy tale.
    2:Your referring to the middleages where people did not have the right living habits and conditions, but there was a time on earth where people actually lived longer, too.  It's shown by several historical sources, the most obvious of which being the Bible. 
  In the times like with Adam and stuff people could live to be 900.  If  you take Moses (who is someone pretty much every historian, not just Bible believers, accepts as a real person), he lived to be 120, and Joshua to 110.  THis was about 1500 B.C.   It seems the Dark Ages were actually more of the low point in the average life span, and King's Quest most likely not supposed to be set in the Middle Ages, at least not the same Middle Ages we had in Enlgand.

 "The age of gnomes is irrelevent to a discussion on ages of humans"
  Yes, but what other examples do we have of how long people live.  Also, don't you find it odd that all the small races like elves, dwarves gnomes, and animals such as unicorns, have such greater life spans than man, and man's is the most fleeting of all?  You would think if everyone around him is immortal, it would influence man just a bit.
  "As far as TSL is concerned they are primary sources instead of just secondary."  WHo was talking about the TSL timeline?  WHat I was saying is that if any future official game is made, they will not have to worry if they want to add facts in their next story that would contradict things already said in the novels.  Here I'll make it clear.
  In my mind there are three or four King's QUest timelines.  THere is
  1:The official timeline.  Anything and everyone shown in the game and it's official manuals.
  2:The novel and KQ companion timeline, or the secondary timeline:  since it does not as of yet interfere with the official timeline, it can be added to the official timeline, or left out of it altogether.
  3:The Silver Lining timeline.  Since it is unofficial I'll label it as a third time line, but in the eyes of most I'm sure it will become an extension of the secondary timeline, and be included in that timeline.
  4:I suppose the AGDI timeline deserves mention.  THis timeline is the 'officially totally unofficial' one, since in their KQ2 story they directly interferes in some places with the original storyline.
  I suppose there was some confusion since I was thinking of the official timeline, but I see now that we are in the plot section of TSL .  So I suppose here at least most would except the novels as canon.   My rant has now ended.  ELvis is King!!!
 

[TheGreatGraham]

  That's strange, especially considering that in K!7 Valanice seemed very urgent for ROsella to get married when she was 19, and certainly acted as if time was somehow running out.  I suppose that could be attributed to a mother's worry.
  I won't worry if you guys don't follow the timeline set by MOE a bit, especially considering everybody thinks MOE happened about a year later.

[Yonkey]

I believe we mentioned this in the past, but the only plot elements we are using from MoE are: Connor, Sarah and the Mask of Eternity. 

[Baggins]

The reason I brought up tree stumps and dogs is because besides the kings, there are no other life forms in the Green Isles.  The only reference you have to indicate your theory is that there may have been ten kings in a hundred year span.

Again we are discussing humans and human age patterns (which btw only live on the island of the Crown, and Isle of the Beast at the most), tree stumps and dogs are irrelevent.

Also I never said anything about 10 kings a hundred year span... 4-6 at the most. If there were 10 kings in 100 year life span and they had all died of "old age", well that would all give them aprroximately 20 year lifespans... 10 years to grow and about 10 years to rule... Sorry that doesn't make any logical sense at all.

As I mentioned if if it was 4-5 kings the would each have about 25 year reigns and 25 years to grow up(with the 5th king's reign either overlapping with pre-100 years, or overlapping past 100 years), which would come out to be about 50-60 maybe 70 year life span give or take a few years. Which is very good considering average lifespan in the middle ages which is a bit less than modern norm. (50-70 is a bit equal to modern lifespan, which is considered exceptional by most people, compared to lifespans before hand).

If we consider that people in royalty tend to have better medical care and generally have the chance to eat healther, and often had longer lifespans than the average populace. Then that would mean that actual average human lifespan may actually be somewhat lower than 60-70 years, rather than longer, which is something petra brought up.

Ahh yes, maybe I should bring up Cleopatra(which is one of several other people from history mentioned in the games). Who is mentioned in the games. So we know that there is a tie to earth history, so earth lifespans have a tie to the games.



 

As petra said, that proves nothing either way.  If you look in the middle ages, or at other times, there are many reasons besides death that would cause a king to lose his crown.

 

Well there is this little fact that Isle of the Crown had been quite peaceful previously. There had never been any coups or take overs until the foreigner Abdul Alhazred had come to the islands. The kingdom has been around for approximtely 400 years(if you count from when the castle of the crown was first built), and people knew all that history between that time, and not once had there been any coups, or uprisings, or wars.

      2:Your referring to the middleages where people did not have the right living habits and conditions, but there was a time on earth where people actually lived longer, too.  It's shown by several historical sources, the most obvious of which being the Bible. 

Bible is considered Mythology by most historians if you didn't know.
So let's not bring religion into this. As I mentioned if people were living to around 60-70, that's already better than middle ages, when average life span was 30-50 years for most people.

I'd rather not go into evolutionary history either...and their discussion of average life span for primitive man...

 

  Yes, but what other examples do we have of how long people live.  Also, don't you find it odd that all the small races like elves, dwarves gnomes, and animals such as unicorns, have such greater life spans than man, and man's is the most fleeting of all?  You would think if everyone around him is immortal, it would influence man just a bit.

s"

Again we were discussing humans, any other race is irrelevent, and completely off topic.

Well you have already said that you personally don't like the novels, but there are several examples in it. There are refrences in the games if you can find them as well (usually in the narration), and even refrences in some of the manuals.

 

"As far as TSL is concerned they are primary sources instead of just secondary."  WHo was talking about the TSL timeline?

Well if you haven't realized you are in the TSL plot forum. Not the official canon forum.

 

WHat I was saying is that if any future official game is made, they will not have to worry if they want to add facts in their next story that would contradict things already said in the novels.

 

Not very likely since novels are all set before the games, and generally cover a period that has never been mentioned in the games or manuals, so there is nothing to contradict those eras. Plus the events were for the most part unimportant and side stories, and made no changes to Daventry or its characters, that would need to be brought up again. So the chances of them being contradicted in any way would be extremely low probability. There is more of a chance the games themselves being ignored.

Which btw happened with Mask of Eternity. Mask of Eternity has several elements that ignored previous games. Graham talks with an old english accent. The architecture of castle daventry and its locaiton does not fit the daventry and location seen in previous games. The layout of Daventry seen in MoE world map does not fit with the layout seen in previous games, etc.

And any new game would be set after the games most likely, so less likely to contradict anything that happened before.



 

2:The novel and KQ companion timeline, or the secondary timeline:  since it does not as of yet interfere with the official timeline, it can be added to the official timeline, or left out of it altogether.

Novel and Companion timeline are in line with the timeline established in the manual and games. As I mentioned novels cover a very brief time in periods that have never been covered, and relatively unimportant events since they do nothing to drastically change the kingdom, and get resolved rather quickly. The manuals and spin off books literally share the same dates. There is literally nothing that could contradict them, unless the next game decided to ignore some of the earlier games.

Which as I've mentioned happened to a certain extent in MoE. (luckily the novels and companion have a few refrences that can be used to explain away a few of the problems with MoE oddly enough).

 

3:The Silver Lining timeline.  Since it is unofficial I'll label it as a third time line, but in the eyes of most I'm sure it will become an extension of the secondary timeline, and be included in that timeline.

Its actually quite a bit different than the official timeline, and does not even follow the dates established in the manuals, and also interferes somewhat with certain aspects of the official timeline(not nearly to the extent of AGDI's however). Apparently in their timeline for example Graham is 25 in KQ1, making him about 52 in TSL.
 

[Baggins]

You also kind of have to remember people don't die of "old age" as we know it. Various dieties decide when people are "old" and just take their souls to whatever realm they are in charge of. Such as Father Death(KQ4), Samhain(KQ6), and Azriel(MoE)