Game Design

[gibsnson]

The demo looks like a great start, I just wanted to offer a suggestion on game design.

A bunch of people, including myself, seem to have been thrown off when they're told that "Graham doesn't feel like getting on the ferry" because they haven't gotten the cloak from the courtyard. I had missed that door, and the only goal I was aware of was to get off the island, so when I was told that I couldn't I had no idea what to do.

I don't think that this is the player's fault, but rather that it's indicative of a minor game design problem. A less glaring example of the same problem occurs at the beginning, where if you try to leave the game tells you that Graham doesn't feel like leaving dressed like he is. Having the game tell you that your character doesn't feel like doing something you want to do really hurts the immersion factor. It makes it feel like you're playing a game on rails, rather than adventuring. If you look at the truly great adventure games in the past (Monkey Island and The Longest Journey being the best examples of this I think), you'll see that almost 100% of the time the game is able to ensure that you're still able to beat the game (i.e. you get all the neccesary items) without having to place un-natural barriers in your way. It's harder to design games this way, but it makes the difference between a good adventure game and a great one.

One place where you've done this right, though, is making a tree fall in front of Graham to keep him from getting to the beach. At least then he doesn't say "I don't feel like going there" when the player might like to. However, as another player noted, the tree is a pretty weak obstacle. Having lightning light the tree on fire or some similar effect to make it more impassable would do a lot to make that more convincing.

A game with excellent design would ensure that it is impossible for Graham to get to the point where he can leave on the boat without already having gotten the cloak. Here's one example of how you could solve this: The guard-dog at the door won't let Graham leave, saying that he shouldn't leave the castle while things are so unsafe. (This would also explain why Graham is on his own, seemingly without any support from the royal family, etc.). In order to pass the dog, he has to disguise himself in the cloak. ensuring that he'll have it when he has to get on the ferry later. There are some problems with that example, but at least it would keep the awkward situation I encountered from happening.

[maestro]

Note:  This post contains spoilers, but I assume that everyone has finished the demo by now, so I didn't bother to use the spoiler tag.  Besides, the first post in this thread contained at least one spoiler, anyway.

Regarding the issue with the cloak, I assumed that that was simply an issue with the demo, and that in the final game there would be a more substantial method of preventing Graham from getting on the ferry without the cloak.  I don't think that Graham would want to wear the cloak, but the game could prevent Hassan from appearing unless Graham has the cloak.  That would make more sense than having to go through the entire dialog with Hassan and having Hassan agree to take Graham, but then having Graham be unable to board the ferry.

Regarding the change of clothes, I suppose one of the castle guards could tell Graham that he needs to change his clothes.  Or, better yet, the key to the trunk could be in the pocket of his adventure's clothes, so that he has to change his clothes before he can open the trunk.

[gibsnson]

Ooh, exactly. Having the key in the trunk would be a perfect solution, although he would still be able to leave the castle with his king's outfit on, which might not be what the designers have in mind.

[Fizbop]

The demo looks like a great start, I just wanted to offer a suggestion on game design.

A bunch of people, including myself, seem to have been thrown off when they're told that "Graham doesn't feel like getting on the ferry" because they haven't gotten the cloak from the courtyard. I had missed that door, and the only goal I was aware of was to get off the island, so when I was told that I couldn't I had no idea what to do.

I don't think that this is the player's fault, but rather that it's indicative of a minor game design problem. A less glaring example of the same problem occurs at the beginning, where if you try to leave the game tells you that Graham doesn't feel like leaving dressed like he is. Having the game tell you that your character doesn't feel like doing something you want to do really hurts the immersion factor. It makes it feel like you're playing a game on rails, rather than adventuring. If you look at the truly great adventure games in the past (Monkey Island and The Longest Journey being the best examples of this I think), you'll see that almost 100% of the time the game is able to ensure that you're still able to beat the game (i.e. you get all the neccesary items) without having to place un-natural barriers in your way. It's harder to design games this way, but it makes the difference between a good adventure game and a great one.

One place where you've done this right, though, is making a tree fall in front of Graham to keep him from getting to the beach. At least then he doesn't say "I don't feel like going there" when the player might like to. However, as another player noted, the tree is a pretty weak obstacle. Having lightning light the tree on fire or some similar effect to make it more impassable would do a lot to make that more convincing.

A game with excellent design would ensure that it is impossible for Graham to get to the point where he can leave on the boat without already having gotten the cloak. Here's one example of how you could solve this: The guard-dog at the door won't let Graham leave, saying that he shouldn't leave the castle while things are so unsafe. (This would also explain why Graham is on his own, seemingly without any support from the royal family, etc.). In order to pass the dog, he has to disguise himself in the cloak. ensuring that he'll have it when he has to get on the ferry later. There are some problems with that example, but at least it would keep the awkward situation I encountered from happening.

Wouldn't the guard arrest him being that the whole thing started out with a mysterious stranger in that cloak.  The stranger had that on and was wearing the cloak.  Thus the guard would arrest him for putting it on disguise or no.  I do like the idea but the facts remain around the story that the mystrious stranger wore it, and left it behine.

[Petra Rocks]

Yes, it would help the immersion factor if more "natural" means could be devised to avoid dead-ends.  I'd still rather deal with the odd feelings  that the dead ends if time constrains meant it was an either or choice, but this would be a nice addition to the game. 

[Yonkey]

Actually, this thread topic is interesting, because upon reading the script 3 years ago I pointed out the same thing to Cesar.

There will be times in the game where the Narrator isn't explicit about telling you what to do.  Usually it will be obvious enough for you to figure it out, but at other times we don't want the Narrator playing the game for you, we want you to!

Another way to look at it is that both the player and Graham as an individual would have no clue they're missing an inventory item.  Yes the Narrator could say something else, but it is a bit difficult to do so without revealing what you're missing.  Hassan needs no cloak, so it's not like he'll tell you either.

Rest assured that the majority of this game is more logical than not, and probably 95% of the narrator dialogue gives you an indication of what you directly or indirectly need to do to solve certain puzzles, but there is still that 5%.  We left it in just to make sure you know that this game is neither your grandma's nor your baby brother's KQ.

[doom saber]

As for leaving w/o being dress.  The game can always have the guard dogs blocking the entrance to make sure if the villian hasn't left it or can have a dialogue like: "I am sorry, your majesty.  We cannot permit anyone leave the castle until we are certain that the suspect isn't in the castle" or something like that.  The user has no choice but to search the place and put on his adventure cap.

[Matt Vassar]

Another way to look at it is that both the player and Graham as an individual would have no clue they're missing an inventory item.  Yes the Narrator could say something else, but it is a bit difficult to do so without revealing what you're missing.  Hassan needs no cloak, so it's not like he'll tell you either.

Unless I'm misreading your post, Yonkey, it sounds like you generally agree with gibsnson that, wherever possible, there should be a "logical" reason why you cannot progress. The problem that you have, though, is that you don't see a possible means of informing the user that s/he needs the cloak without outright saying it (after all, as you pointed out, Hassan has no need for the cloak).

I actually felt like gibsnson offered a very concrete and logical means of doing so when s/he suggested:

Here's one example of how you could solve this: The guard-dog at the door won't let Graham leave, saying that he shouldn't leave the castle while things are so unsafe.

This seems logical enough to me. There's an evil presence (the cloak) in the castle, and the guard dogs are seeking Graham's help to remove it before letting him go.

Of course, in general, adventurers would be best served not leaving any stone unturned, and those adventurers who do so will avoid this problem altogether. Ideally, the user would just compulsively click on everything in the castle before leaving--without any prompting from a narrator or a guard dog. But I think that gibsnson makes a good point that if the user does manage to miss something, it's probably better to have a reason within the game why s/he can't move on (rather than an artifical construct imposed by the narrator). Failure to do so, as gibsnson pointed out, will only remind the user that s/he's playing a game and will necessarily impede immersion.

[Yonkey]

Actually, I find it highly logical.  "Graham is not going downstairs dressed like that" directly indicates that you must get changed.  The only scene you can visit is his own Bedroom, so you don't have many options.  And, his cap isn't exactly some hidden object in the room that you have to pixel hunt for.

Regarding the cloak, again, it's very obvious and even if you attempt to walk over it like you've never seen it, Graham will pick it up.

So, I don't see any problems with the Game Design of those two puzzles.

[sivvrianBARRY]

To be fair, I think the "clothes changing puzzle" is perfectly acceptable. I have no problem with it.

I do, however, have a problem with the cloak thing. It just seems incredibly implausible that Graham would "not feel like" getting on the ferry if he didn't have the cloak, but would suddenly start to "feel like" getting on the ferry once he picked up the cloak. Additionally, there is no actual reason for Graham to pick up the cloak, except for the fact that you'll need it later on in the game, which shatters the suspension of disbelief.

My suggestion for the final game is to allow Graham to get on the ferry without the cloak, and to go see the Oracle without the cloak. The Oracle's guards wouldn't allow Graham to see the Oracle without bringing a physical indication of what he was inquiring about. Then the player would have a logical reason to get the cloak and bring it to the Oracle.

Sure, it's kind of annoying to have to go back and forth between islands again, but far more realistic. It is certainly not a dead-end, and personally I think it's a lot more frustrating than the game forcing the player to make a choice without having any reason for doing so.

[Yonkey]

Actually, that's not more realistic either.  Why would a Winged Guard care about Graham having a cloak or not?

I can't remember if you need the cloak later on in the game or not.  I think you do, otherwise we wouldn't have made such a big deal about it being an inventory item and whatnot.  But as you said, if the Narrator says "Yo' Graham, you forgot the cloak!" that obviously shatters the suspension of disbelief, since the Narrator is the only character who would know he's missing it and needs it for a future cutscene/puzzle.

EDIT: And actually, the Winged Ones are very resistant about Graham seeing the Oracle (and for good reason too), but I don't want to spoil that information, just in case we add that sequence to a future demo.

[sivvrianBARRY]

Actually, that's not more realistic either.  Why would a Winged Guard care about Graham having a cloak or not?

Actually, it would make perfect sense. It's an honor and a privilege to see the Oracle, they wouldn't want Graham to waste the Oracle's time. Or, you could also have Graham go to see the Oracle, and she couldn't see the future clearly enough because of shadows or something, and she needed a more concrete artifact to see more about the attacker.

There are plenty of creative options that make sense within the context of the game. I'm sure you guys have a ton on your plates as it is, but if you really want to have a good game design, issues like these need to be addressed.

[Yonkey]

Modifying the cutscene is pretty much out of the question at this point.  That would mean redesigning, remodelling, retexturing, reanimating and rerecording.  And considering we want this game done sooner rather than later, I don't think anyone in the team wants to do all that work just for a cloak.

While I agree your idea is creative, game design was finalized back in 2004 more or less, so the only changes that can be made to Shadows at this point are minor ones, like spelling/grammar and removing stuff.

[Jackablade]

You shouldn't need to do any major restructuring to your design. Just adding a more reasonable response for Graham not wanting to get boat.
"I believe theres still business I need to attend to here before leaving the kingdom" or some such should be perfectly adequate.

On a related note, I don't think its actually mentioned at any stage that you need to visit the Winged Ones (perhaps it is and I missed it). There are obviously only a few options and the player will eventually blunder thier way down to the docks and onto the boat, but it would seem to be good design to add something along the lines of "Perhaps I should ask the oracle/winged ones about this cloak" when you pick it up. Having Graham mention that he wants to visit the Winged Ones to Hassad would also help avoid that aimless feeling.

[Yonkey]

You shouldn't need to do any major restructuring to your design. Just adding a more reasonable response for Graham not wanting to get boat.
"I believe theres still business I need to attend to here before leaving the kingdom" or some such should be perfectly adequate.

I still don't see how that dialogue is any different than the one already in the demo. It does not explain how Graham would know which business he's attending to.  And picking up a cloak is hardly what I would refer to as "business".

On a related note, I don't think its actually mentioned at any stage that you need to visit the Winged Ones (perhaps it is and I missed it).

Are you sure neither Oberon, Titania nor Hassan never mentioned it?  I can't check right now, but I believe one of them did during some dialogue.

There are obviously only a few options and the player will eventually blunder thier way down to the docks and onto the boat, but it would seem to be good design to add something along the lines of "Perhaps I should ask the oracle/winged ones about this cloak" when you pick it up. Having Graham mention that he wants to visit the Winged Ones to Hassad would also help avoid that aimless feeling.

The Oracle is something Graham knows nothing about until the IoS cutscene prior to the one in the demo.  I believe he is first directed to visit the Winged Ones during some dialogue, and then they tell him to speak with the Oracle.  However, as stated in the FAQ, this game is half of Chapter 1, meaning a large portion has been intentionally left out 

[Jackablade]

I still don't see how that dialogue is any different than the one already in the demo. Nor does it explain how Graham would know which business he's attending to.  Lastly, picking up a cloak is hardly what I would refer to as "business".

Perhpas business is not the best term but I do think that it feels much more logical and in character than the 'not feeling like boarding the ship'. It gives the player a clue that they need to do something else. As it is at the moment the the player can wonder whether theres some other option for leaving the island. The village hints at Djinn and flying carpets...

[Yonkey]

Ahhh I see what you mean now.  Ok, let's get our writers' opinion on this and see.

[Yonkey]

Good news guys!  The cloak error dialogue will now be fixed in Patch v.2.0 which will be released later on today.

[Yonkey]

Which is funny, since apparently most people really enjoyed those games at the time, and never complained about it.

I'm not sure how many peer/customer reviews you've read about these games, but that's not completely true.

I mean, yes people generally accepted the games, but I personally did not like the fact that I had to buy a hintbook to figure out that I reached a dead-end.  Maybe some people prefer restoring and replaying games from the start when they're stuck, but I'm certainly not one of them.

This is actually why I preferred LucasArts games to Sierra, because their game design was much more solid, though graphically they were more cartoony.  Again, different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Baggins]

Well it probally should be pointed out that most Lucasarts games came after most of the Sierra games. So they had hindsight to see what other companies in the industry had done.

Plus technology was a bit more advanced so they could make longer games (so there wasn't much need for them to find arbitrary ways of extending gametime in order to justify the costs of the games).

On the other hand they are also known for having some of the most illogical puzzles in adventure, that don't make sense at all. Thus forcing the need for hintbooks.

Plus even some of their earliest games had a few dead-ends. I don't know if this was before or after they put in their "no dead-end" policy.