Why Should I Hate or Like Connor?

[patrick83301]

Hey,
I have a confession to make, I never played all of MoE . So all I know about Connor is what I saw in the beginning of MoE and in Kq2+. So, to help decide whether to like Connor or not, I need your help. Please tell me why I should or shouldn't hate Connor.

[Jafar]

He steals from innocent villagers, promotes violent solutions to problems, and was a meanieh to Alexander in a TSL spoiler.

On the other hand, he...um...fixed a mask.

[Rosella]

Ooh, must find Storm.

[Storm]

I'm found!

To hate or not to hate... that is the question (of this thread, anyways). Now, as Chief Connor Basher of this forum (2 years in a row), I am expected to say something along the lines of "hate now!" and go into a furious rant about how Connor single-handedly destroyed the KQ series
However, if you haven't played MOE, you can never quite appreciate why people hate Connor so much. If you've been told how horrible Connor is, you might grow to dislike him, but it takes hours of exposure to his irritating voice, senseless violence and all-around annoying non-personality to REALLY get the hate part down

[Louisiana Night]

Small Note before I start: keep these posts nice, no flaming(though flaming/burning Connor at the stake is acceptable, if it helps you deal with your negative emotions).

Where to begin, where to begin…
Actually, as many dislike Connor’s character on the basis of disliking MoE, I will begin there.

Let’s see here… people often argue that MoE was the worst official game bearing the KQ name, because it was action-oriented, right? Now, the MoE-haters also tend to state that the main character not being a member of the royal family is a flaw. Now… WHY are these two details so often pointed out(often by the same person)? If anything, you should be THANKING Connor for being the main/playable character, because otherwise it would have been a member of the royal family(granted, seeing Rosella or Valanice taking down monsters with their 1337 skillz would have been very amusing). Personally, I liked MoE… but I would have had a major problem with playing through the same game as Graham(or, to a lesser degree, Alexander). Feel free to tell me, if MoE had to exist, how Connor made things worse and not better(if only more bearable).

Now, on to Connor himself. Although his character was not as fleshed-out as well as it could have been(as many have stated), he had more depth than most characters in the KQ games(ignoring non-game materials). He had many characteristics one would associate with the Paladin stereotype, including his appearance by the end of the game(going from the clothing of a peasant, to armour befitting a Paladin, right down to its “holy armour” references). I will begin with his character’s strong/good points, then move on to his alleged faults.

As I stated, his personality fits the Paladin stereotype very well(the main difference being, despite his role in the game, he is a low-class peasant… which is also apparent in his personality). As even Storm has stated, he is very honourable. Some people point to him being an artist as a sign of certain personality traits(a canvas is found in his house, which he comments about)… but I fail to see it as a sign of him having any positive traits people have given him(based upon this information). There is no reason to assume he painted nice things like flowers, he could have just as easily had Gabriel Knight-like paintings… and I personally see both extremes as conflicting with his more apparent MoE personality traits.

Some people note that he was violent, but given the in-game circumstances, Alexander would have also taken a similar route(it cannot be used to help identify Connor’s personality traits). Also of note is that, despite the player commanding him to attack, on more than one occasion he will refuse, in the way of sheathing his sword when being asked to not attack(if I remember correctly, this can sometimes be activated while attempting to attack an NPC in mid-air… clicking an NPC while grounded never resulted in this dialogue for me*).

Despite what has been said, several puzzles were also in the game. Most MoE-haters say he solved problems with his sword rather than his wit to point to him as unintelligent, despite him solving puzzles befitting a KQ game… save the jumping puzzles, combat-oriented puzzles, and the odd Mask square puzzle(combined making up the minority of the puzzles). The enemies also, quite often, required one to use basic tactics to defeat them(similar to other, better known, 3rd-person action games).

Personally, I only find one very strange fault with his character(as far as going against the “noble hero” stereotype). The guy has an obsession with gold. Even though everyone is stone, and he could take whatever he needed, the guy seemed to be convinced he needed gold(there actually were times when gold was used, but they were rare, and the majority of it involved buying weapons which were obsolete by the next level). Keep in mind, this does not make him a kleptomaniac(as I said before, he could have stolen plenty of things, but it always seems to be gold), he is just obsessed with gold. He comments that he believes they won’t mind considering his “present need for their gold”… but, as I said before, there was little to use it for, and less reason to think he would need it(a much better way to question his sanity/honour/intelligence than the violence argument ).

*as I have not played the game in quite sometime, I will need to play a section of MoE to verify it and be 99% certain.

[TribeHasSpoken]

Don't worry. The Terminator will take care of Connor soon enough.

Oh wait, that's Sarah Connor. In that case, I guess you're stuck.

[Storm]

Darn

As even Storm has stated, he is very honourable.

ME???!?? WHERE??? and what was I on at the time?

[Louisiana Night]

Don't worry, it was in an arguement/discussion about who should take Graham's place, upon his death(I believe you said that was why he wouldn't take the throne, but I am unsure... I have a poor memory ).

*digs it up*
EDIT: Kings Quest: This Time, 'Tis Personal

Okay, so the "very" was slightly exaggerated.

[Baggins]

Well connor only takes a tiny bit of gold from from people in his village(including from his own house), and some family in the swamp.

He says yes he needs the gold and they won't mind as they are his friends, and well he needs it help cure them from their stone.

Infact when you save Gwennie she tells him to take her father's gold, he won't mind. Obviously people in the town don't mind the hero taking their gold if its for a good cause.

There is more gold where it came from of course, since it is the standard legal tender of the land... Chest of Gold and all that.

Yes the gold was very much needed. Without the gold from Daventry, he couldn't buy the War Hammer or the Essence of Sun Tzu(hell there was barely enough gold to buy those).

Without the War Hammer he can't get past the locked door in the Underground Realm of the Gnomes, or get the tree root, amberglow, crystal shard. Both the breaking the lock, and getting the crystal shard were items were required to complete the Underground Realm of the gnomes so he could move onto the next area. So yes he needed the gold. Wel, without  the iron lock, treeroot and amberglow he couldn't have received the Sun Tzu essence...

To destroy the basilisk he also needed to buy the black diamond tipped spear, which also required a bit of gold.

For anyone keeping track Connor only steals less than 200 gold coins from the people in daventry and the swamp. All other gold is found in chests in creepy dungeons, or off corpses.  So not counting his money, or the money Gwennie allows him to take, he only takes 65 gold coins from Simm's house and Julia. All other gold he he found near the village was found in abandoned areas, lost outside, or off enemies.

Connor also mentions that Julia has helped him before, so he's helping her now.

Once he gets past Underground Realm of the Gnomes and defeats Lucreto he has enough gold to pay them back 10x over.

Oddly enough he also gave a bit of gold back to his Church to get a blessing(I suppose its surprising he didn't raid the collection box). He also payed oracle of the tree to get prophecies that would give him clues, or information about his enemy.

He's not much worse than the royal family though, which were known to enter houses without permission and take things that did not belong to them.

[Storm]

Infact when you save Gwennie she tells him to take her father's gold, he won't mind. Obviously people in the town don't mind the hero taking their gold if its for a good cause.

Hmmm, if a some kid came up to you and said "here, use dad's credit card, he wouldn't mind", I'd still like to get permission from the owner before going on a shopping spree. You definitely can't infer that everyone in town would gladly give away their money based on one kid.

Besides, all you say is in hindsight. Sure he needed the gold later to buy stuff, but back when he was in Daventry, raiding all those poor, stoned people's life savings, he didn't know he'll need to buy anything (let alone that he'll find an open shop, what with everyone turned to stone).
Face it, the guy's a raving klepto

[Baggins]

I'm not sure taking gold from the dead is a crime. Ya the game describes everyone as being stone-dead... He could have just decided to live his life in Daventry and left everyone "dead". But no he decided to save everyone.

And a credit card is not the same as gold, since to use a credit card you would be commiting Identity fraud. A completely different crime. Not to mention the fact that money on a credit card does not belongs to the person owns the credit card but instead belongs to the credit company. The card owner just borrows the money from the credit company, and expects to be paid back.

There is no way to argue that Connor commited identity fraud.

Connor only took from four people, if you count Gwennie's father. Julia, Mr. Simms, and the head of the family in the swamp.

Ya he knew he needed gold by the time he got to Oracle(so that would explain him taking the gold from the apparently abandoned boarded up swamp shack and the family living in the other swamp shack).

Besides. He could have left the gold and ended up in a dead end in the game when he found he couldn't get past the locked door cause he couldn't afford the war hammer.  Or he would have been without the essence of Sun Tzu, forcing him to return to find more gold he left behind.

Remember the Magic Map and teleporters? That was to prevent being permanently stuck in the game, incase of running out of gold,  you could usually go back and find the needed gold. (unless the player wasted the money on some of the other things like putting too much in the church box for example).

Also Connor using gold to help the people out of their condition isn't much different in the real world where a Hospital can bleed someone's bank account dry in order to afford "healing" them, while they are unconcious and can't give their permission in the first place.

It can be argued he looted people's homes(granted non-living people), but so has Daventry's Royal Family over the years as well. It might be said that is standard practice for citizens of Daventry :p...

[patrick83301]

Hmmmmm Those are all very well written and seeming passionate speeches. Thanks you guys and anyothers who may add opinions. It does shed a little light and like Louisiana kinda said I will need to finish the game. But as of now I'm leaning towards Connor is ok.

[Yonkey]

Notwithstanding all said in this thread already, I think Connor would not have been so disliked if he were not connected to the KQ series or even adventure games.   Many people like him in his own right, which is why I think the TSL Connor may turn out to be pretty cool once I see and hear him in-game.

You'll just have to wait and see, and this time I'll use the suffer on myself as well, since I haven't seen him yet either.

[Storm]

as of now I'm leaning towards Connor is ok.

That's because you haven't played MOE yet
Though maybe you should just wait for TSL to come out, they say he'll be a lot more likable there

And a credit card is not the same as gold, since to use a credit card you would be committing Identity fraud. A completely different crime. Not to mention the fact that money on a credit card does not belongs to the person owns the credit card but instead belongs to the credit company. The card owner just borrows the money from the credit company, and expects to be paid back.

There is no way to argue that Connor committed identity fraud.

I didn't say Connor was committing identity fraud... my point was to illustrate using someone else's money without their express permission is the same as stealing, credit card or no.

Besides. He could have left the gold and ended up in a dead end in the game when he found he couldn't get past the locked door cause he couldn't afford the war hammer.  Or he would have been without the essence of Sun Tzu, forcing him to return to find more gold he left behind.

Remember the Magic Map and teleporters? That was to prevent being permanently stuck in the game, incase of running out of gold,  you could usually go back and find the needed gold. (unless the player wasted the money on some of the other things like putting too much in the church box for example).

Sure, he CAN leave the gold behind and come back for it later. I don't know, maybe it's even possible to finish the game without taking that gold at all. But sometimes in adventure games, when the player character is ordered to do something completely illogical or that goes against their better judgment without knowning why it should be done first, they'd refuse and ask why on earth should they. The decent thing to do would be to refuse to take the gold till he was sure he really needed it. The fact that Connor doesn't refuse shows he has no problems stealing, even if he has no real need for it, which fits the Kleptomaniac definition perfectly.

Also Connor using gold to help the people out of their condition isn't much different in the real world where a Hospital can bleed someone's bank account dry in order to afford "healing" them, while they are unconcious and can't give their permission in the first place.

That's hardly a valid comparison! When a hospital admits a patient, it's obvious that the hospital is going to have certain costs like paying the doctors, nurses and the rest of the hospital staff, buying medicines and medical equipment etc. etc. so it has a valid claim for needing that money. When Connor sets out on his quest, he has no idea he's going to need any money.
Also, the fact that someone's unconscious doesn't really give the hospital free access to their bank accounts - the bank has to bill them (or their insurance) like it does everyone else.

It can be argued he looted people's homes(granted non-living people), but so has Daventry's Royal Family over the years as well. It might be said that is standard practice for citizens of Daventry :p...

Yeah, but when the Royals do it it's called "taxes"

[Delling]

 

seeing Rosella or Valanice taking down monsters with their 1337 skillz would have been very amusing

rofl

...sorry... just the idea of Rosella going amazon archeress on a bunch of abominable snow men seemed hilarious.

*regains composure*

I actuallly haven't played all of MoE. I begged my dad to get it as it was the next installment in KQ, and he gave the rather common argument that it just wouldn't be the same. At first, I thought, "It's KQ: it'll be fine." As I played as Connor and was left trying to do all the little combat things in Daventry, Connor just really got on my nerves... especially the jumping IIRC... Anyway, Connor and combat were the reasons I gave up on MoE... though I've recently been considering playing through it all the way.

I'm going to have to say "hate" Connor. Noble or not, he's as irritating as Chinese water torture.

[Baggins]

That's because you haven't played MOE yet
Though maybe you should just wait for TSL to come out, they say he'll be a lot more likable there

I've played through MOE about 3 times. I consider connor Ok, I like him. He's not the best character, but he's not hte worst either. There are so many things in the game that just scream king's quest to me.

But that's the thing Connor is either a character you like, or you don't like. You hate him, that's fine. But there are people that do like him.

Who knows how he'd feel if he had the chance to actually play it. Someone can't possibly actually have a valid feeling for something unless they have actually played through something, and can make their decision from experiance.

I didn't say Connor was committing identity fraud... my point was to illustrate using someone else's money without their express permission is the same as stealing, credit card or no.

Well a credit isn't actually money. So you made a very bad comparison.

Also the question is does Connor do this on regular basis, if this was the first time he did it in his life, he would not be a kleptomaniac.

Kleptomania like any mental disorder is something that had to live with his whole life, the irrational taking anything they see and isn't nailed down. But there is no evidence he took things before the disaster to prove he has lived with kleptomania.

Its a small town people would have noticed if things were disappearing before the events... There is no jail or stocks in Connor's village so it doesn't appear that they arrested anyone for stealing anything before hand. So it doesn't look like tere is any evidence of anyone with klepotmania syndrome in the village.

So its not likely he's actually got the disorder of kleptomania.

As for him choosing to take things during a disaster.

Well you have to remember you the player are the one actually making connor take the gold, so in reality that makes you the kleptomaniac. As connor offscreen concious you could have chosen not to take the gold. Granted you'll reach a dead in later in the game, if you don't have enough gold to pay for all the things needed in the swamp, Underground Realm of the Gnomes, and Barren region.

The game is randomized so enemies don't always drop the same amount of gold, or any gold at all. So every time you play, its not like you as a player can expect to beat it with enemy loot alone. Thus why Roberta and the other designers put gold in all sorts of places, so you have enough to buy the required items.

Just because he took the gold doesn't mean he's a kleptomaniac though. Not unless he had suffered from stealing things from people's homes his entire life, and even after the events. Also the symptoms of kleptomaniacs is that they take more than just money.

Origin
Kleptomania is a strong desire to steal. Often a kleptomaniac person steals things he could have bought easily or things that are not at all expensive. The person steals just for the tension or the kick. Kleptomania can be the result of emotional shortcomings during the youth.

Symptoms
These patients have an irresistible inclination to steal. Often they throw away the stolen goods. They are mostly interested in the kick of the stealing itself. Although psychiatrists consider kleptomania as a disease, this is not a legal excuse in front of an American or British court.

Treatment
This disorder is rather easy to treat. It is important to find another occupation to replace the stealing activity. It is also very important to make the patient realize that others are harmed by the stealing activities.

Main Entry: klep·to·ma·nia
Pronunciation: "klep-t&-'mA-nE-&, -ny&
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin
: a persistent neurotic impulse to steal especially without economic motive

So yes you misused the term kleptomania... Your use of the term is quite incorrect...


Believe me disasters change alot of people. Its common practice for normal people who would not normally steal,  to break into people's homes, especially if it appears abandoned, or the people dead,  during a disaster to take food, clothing, and money, out of pure desperation.

They are called looters, does that make what they do right or wrong? Well often wrong, especially when they take things that will not actually help them survive(tvs, jewelry, computers, and other hardware).

Government will often turn a blind eye if its only looting of survival material, money, food, hygeine material and clothes.

It is considered a very different thing than the psychological klepotmania disorder. Since most of those people have never taken anything else in their lives.

Is it argued to be moral or immoral? Often its considered amoral when its only things that will help with survival. It depends on personal opinion.

That's hardly a valid comparison! When a hospital admits a patient, it's obvious that the hospital is going to have certain costs like paying the doctors, nurses and the rest of the hospital staff, buying medicines and medical equipment etc. etc. so it has a valid claim for needing that money. When Connor sets out on his quest, he has no idea he's going to need any money.
Also, the fact that someone's unconscious doesn't really give the hospital free access to their bank accounts - the bank has to bill them (or their insurance) like it does everyone else.

Actually in some places, Hospitals have the right to access a person's bank account if there is no one else to give the permission. Don't ask my the law in those locations allows it, but they do. Probably another one of those amoral civil issues...

"Yeah, but when the Royals do it it's called "taxes" "

Let's see the royal family often visit other lands other than daventry and break into private property and take things that are not theirs. That has nothing to do with taxes. You can't tax other people's nations, nor does taxes mean you walk into people's homes or their land without their permisison and just take anything that's not nailed down.

Its actually kind of funny, in King's Quest Companion, there is several paragraphs throughout the various novels where the characters think of ways to justify their stealing of people's goods, but they actually know they are ultimately stealing, LOL.

Notwithstanding all said in this thread already, I think Connor would not have been so disliked if he were not connected to the KQ series or even adventure games.   Many people like him in his own right, which is why I think the TSL Connor may turn out to be pretty cool once I see and hear him in-game.

I've played the game nearly 3 times. I've actually grown to like it, occasionally discovering something I missed on previous plays. There is enough in the game that it still feels very much like a King's Quest game to me (albeit a King's Quest game with new gameplay style tacked on)... Maybe opinions vary, and that's understandable. In alot of ways it reminds me of the first King's Quest though, ability to jump, treasure hunt plot line, random enemy encounters, "arcade sequences", etc.

It also reused plenty of ideas from previous King's Quest games for good or bad, in 3-d.

More Tile Puzzles(KQ6), another  realm of death ruled by another Lord of Death(KQ6), yet another volcano (KQ6, and KQ7), another icy mountain area ruled by yet another ice queen(KQ5), a another crystal dragon(KQ7), cartoon style animation(KQ7),  yet another swampy area(KQ4, KQ6, KQ7), etc.

[patrick83301]

Hey you forgot the KQ2 has a swampy area. HAHA Sorry I had to share my immense knowledge. HAHA Sorry

[Baggins]

Actually KQ2 official version doesn't have a swamp. Just a bunch of lakes, a forest, and an ocean.

KQ1 has a willow swamp area. But since it doesn't actually add much to the plot or have quests involved I left it out.

But ya my list was only for the official games, the ones that shared inspiration for Mask of Eternity.

Obviously the KQ2 remake did not inspire Mask of Eternity.

[Storm]

my point was to illustrate using someone else's money without their express permission is the same as stealing, credit card or no.

Well a credit isn't actually money. So you made a very bad comparison.

Call me dumb, but I just can't see how that's a bad comparison. A credit card is in many ways like money (especially in the way you can use both to pay for things), and at any rate, it doesn't have to be anything like money to prove my point - it is enough that both are used without their owner's permission

Also the question is does Connor do this on regular basis, if this was the first time he did it in his life, he would not be a kleptomaniac.

Kleptomania like any mental disorder is something that had to live with his whole life, the irrational taking anything they see and isn't nailed down. But there is no evidence he took things before the disaster to prove he has lived with kleptomania.

Its a small town people would have noticed if things were disappearing before the events... There is no jail or stocks in Connor's village so it doesn't appear that they arrested anyone for stealing anything before hand. So it doesn't look like tere is any evidence of anyone with klepotmania syndrome in the village.

So its not likely he's actually got the disorder of kleptomania.

As for him choosing to take things during a disaster.

Well you have to remember you the player are the one actually making connor take the gold, so in reality that makes you the kleptomaniac. As connor offscreen concious you could have chosen not to take the gold. Granted you'll reach a dead in later in the game, if you don't have enough gold to pay for all the things needed in the swamp, Underground Realm of the Gnomes, and Barren region.

The game is randomized so enemies don't always drop the same amount of gold, or any gold at all. So every time you play, its not like you as a player can expect to beat it with enemy loot alone. Thus why Roberta and the other designers put gold in all sorts of places, so you have enough to buy the required items.

Just because he took the gold doesn't mean he's a kleptomaniac though. Not unless he had suffered from stealing things from people's homes his entire life, and even after the events. Also the symptoms of kleptomaniacs is that they take more than just money.

Origin
Kleptomania is a strong desire to steal. Often a kleptomaniac person steals things he could have bought easily or things that are not at all expensive. The person steals just for the tension or the kick. Kleptomania can be the result of emotional shortcomings during the youth.

Symptoms
These patients have an irresistible inclination to steal. Often they throw away the stolen goods. They are mostly interested in the kick of the stealing itself. Although psychiatrists consider kleptomania as a disease, this is not a legal excuse in front of an American or British court.

Treatment
This disorder is rather easy to treat. It is important to find another occupation to replace the stealing activity. It is also very important to make the patient realize that others are harmed by the stealing activities.

Main Entry: klep·to·ma·nia
Pronunciation: "klep-t&-'mA-nE-&, -ny&
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin
: a persistent neurotic impulse to steal especially without economic motive

So yes you misused the term kleptomania... Your use of the term is quite incorrect...


Believe me disasters change alot of people. Its common practice for normal people who would not normally steal,  to break into people's homes, especially if it appears abandoned, or the people dead,  during a disaster to take food, clothing, and money, out of pure desperation.

They are called looters, does that make what they do right or wrong? Well often wrong, especially when they take things that will not actually help them survive(tvs, jewelry, computers, and other hardware).

Government will often turn a blind eye if its only looting of survival material, money, food, hygeine material and clothes.

It is considered a very different thing than the psychological klepotmania disorder. Since most of those people have never taken anything else in their lives.

Is it argued to be moral or immoral? Often its considered amoral when its only things that will help with survival. It depends on personal opinion.

Wow, I've seen people kill jokes before, but none quite as efficiently *removes hat*

Actually in some places, Hospitals have the right to access a person's bank account if there is no one else to give the permission. Don't ask my the law in those locations allows it, but they do. Probably another one of those amoral civil issues...

I wonder what countries allow this In my country at least, the most a hospital can do is sue the patient and have the bank account seized in its favor. A hospital is just the same as any other creditor - the fact someone owes it money doesn't mean it has the right access their bank account.

[patrick83301]

Wow, I've seen people kill jokes before, but none quite as efficiently *removes hat*

HAHAHAHAHA Sorry.
I think I have nothing against Connor but I do hate MoE. But that could be because I have grown accustomed to the graphics and options of today's games.