A topical thread, aka lifespan in Daventry

[Baggins]

Ya, that's the quote.

[Yonkey]

Sure there are many make it to 80-100 years in the US, but they are apparently the exception not the norm.

Weird.  Everyone I know personally that died of natural causes lived to the age of 82 at least.  But I guess life expectancy is different in Canada than the US.  Anyway, back on topic.

If its any help with the discussion at hand, people in the world of daventry are supposed to be the decendents of people from ancient nations of Egypt, Rome, Greece, Britain, Arabia, and other miscellaneous countries.

Yes, that should be taken into consideration as well.  Different cultures lead different lifestyles, so not only must you look at their origin, you should look at their diet, social/political factors (i.e. wars, plagues, curses, etc), resiliancy to sickness, and amount of physical exercise.

[Baggins]

Most people in my family have lived into their 80s as well.

Like I said 70's average of everyone in the US. It certainly doesn't mean everyone dies between 60-70 in the US. Men usually live shorter than women...

Yes, Canada ranks higher than US in national life expectancy statistics, at about 80 years. Putting them about 9th place in averages.

The highest national average is in Andorra, where average is 83.5 years.


United States life expectency is about Life expectancy is in the 70's, about 77.9 years currently. However its also not in the top 10 highest life expectencies. But neither is it in the top 10 lowest either.

On the flipside the lowest life expectency is 32.6 years in Swaziland.

Sierra Leone used to have one of the lowest life expectency a few years back, but have recently jumped up to 9th lowest at about 40.2 years.

65 years is world wide average for life expectency, taking all nations into account.


How does this relate to the world of Daventry? Well it means that life expectency can vary between nations to a certain degree. Usually between 40-70 years.

[Petra Rocks]

How does this relate to the world of Daventry? Well it means that life expectency can vary between nations to a certain degree. Usually between 40-70 years.

 IIRC pre-modern medicine life expectancy was more like 30-40.  A lot of that was childhood though so if you made to 15 you could expect to see 50 at least.

 Baggins brought up an interesting point about plague though. Usually plagues mostly hit pre-modern nations, so if Daventry was suffering from them, it makes it more likely that it's medical effectiveness was pre-modern and thus reduced life expectancy.

[Baggins]

Ya average life expectency in real world pre-modern medicine was  usually around 30-40. 50 if they were pushing it.

So ya if life expectency is between 50-70 in lands around Daventry they are doing pretty well for what is essentially a medievil society. Even with plagues and other diseases.

Also in the real world most of the nations that are in the top 10 lowest expectency statistics are on that list due to lack of modern medicine IIRC.

[Yonkey]

Oh, that reminds me.  I'm not sure if this is off-topic or not, but I remember reading that early societies may have greatly miscalcualted their ages.

In the early ages, they would measure years by moon cycles (i.e. every 28 days) so, when you read in certain mythical/legendary texts and it lists people living to the age of 200 or 300 years, they're actual age is about 13 times less than that number, i.e. 15-23.

[Petra Rocks]

That's an interesting thought, in particular as it applies to Mesopotamia, whose people used lunar calanders. Especially since the Egyptians, would used a solar calendar, didn't claim God-like lifespans for their early kings.  But unless "month" got translated "year" wouldn't it come out to more like 90% as long?  A lunar year is shorter than a solar year by a couple of weeks, not 1/10 the length.  They knew that in Babylon.  And then the Chinese... ( is thinking while typing, so toodles off to do some research  )

[TheGreatGraham]

  A lot of this depends upon how much we assume Daventry and the Green Isles were like the Middle AGes as we know them.  Daventry, partly because of the magic which surrounds it, and Graham's good job as King, shows very little sign of any plague or anything, since one of the main reasons the people in medieval times lived such a short time is their lack of medicinal knowledge, along with their bad habits (like with hygeine, and things like bleeding their patients to get out the disease).  Daventry actually appears quite a bit more advanced than your average medieval nation.
  We can't really tell what the average lifespan is, but we do know in some other countries people lived to a considerable age.  One example is reading the headstones in Tamir.  YOu would think, sionce Tamir is much more desolate than Daventry, that they would be even less advanced than Daventry, and if you read the headstones you see that there were some pretty young deaths, but there were some older one's as well.  For instance,
  Rebecca Freeland:She drank good ale, good punch and wine, and lived to the age of 99.
  Lord Coningsby:1559 to 1626 (not that old but 67).
    Most did not say their age, but more their profession.  If you read all of them, very few are said to have died from old age.
  If you take the headstones seriously, it suggests that the age was, as already stated, quite dependant on hygeine and medicine (I actually think the former is really more important to reach an older age up to a point).  So the wuestion is how technologically and medically advanced Daventry really was, and if the people had the knowledge as to how to treat themselves.  Imo, Daventry was more advanced medicinally than Tamir, leaving an old age like 99 possible (though since that is the only reference, it is not guaranteed).  Also, Daventry appears to have much more common sense than people in medieval times did, even if their medicines were not more advanced.  In KQI you didn't see the carpenter bleeding his wife with a rusty knife in order to get the disease out, and other small things like that.  It also seems somewhat apparent they didn't place too big of a value on meat like pigs, and I'm sure they cooked them better than most midevial people (eating pigs and stuff with diseases was a big problem back then.  Seems Daventry had a well-balanced diet (again, you can't tell this for sure, but they did have a garden with carrots, and those are good for your eyes )
   As for actually coming up with an age estimate, I'm not gonna d0 that right now, I'll have to think about it.
  As for the calender, that is a pretty interestingthought about their calender.  Of course, you wouldn't think the people of Daventry, with the magic mirror and all sorts of knowledgable people, would make a miscalculation by decades, but maybe it could makle a few years difference.

[Yonkey]

Just one thing to comment on that distinguishes KQ from actual history, KQ didn't believe in hysteria, that is, the process of bleeding someone to rid them of "disease".

In the KQ world, they were treated/healed by magic:

(Warning: Do not read the following unless you want certain KQ series endings spoiled for you )

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

- Graham's Fairy Godmother casting a "protection spell" over him
- the woodcutter's wife being cured of starvation from a magic bowl
- Alexander using magic to turn Manannan into a harmless cat
- Rosella curing Graham's heart attack by the magic fruit
- Cedric being revived via magic wand
- Allaria & Callphim being revived mainly due to the magic mirror
- Edgar being revived from the cat's extra life
- Connor and the repaired Mask of Eternity reanimating all "still life"

So, one can assume that the lives of many KQ citizens were prolonged due to supernatural things and people that can heal injury or reverse death itself.

[Baggins]

Alright;

IIRC, bleeding gets mentioned offhand in one of the novels. However its a last resort(and only by professional medical personal), if physicians, magic healers abilities and potions do not work. Rosella's darn lucky she got back in time before they resorted to bleeding Graham. 

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

The fairy godmother protection only protected him from random encounters, and it wares off after about 30 minutes of protection. It does not extend life. This is covered in the peter spear novel as well.

Additionally the good fairy in KQ2's spell was the same type of spell. Only making him invulnerable to enemies for a short period of time not actually extending his life. Again covered in the game and Peter Spear's novel.

Magic Bowl just gives you unlimited food it doesn't actually 'extend life". It just has normal every day stew. It does not have any properties to "extend life".

Cedric had turned to "stone" apparently by Manannan's spell, so he was physically restored. He's also a familiar and not a normal owl if that means anything. He's already apparently immortal like crispin. Crispin may not even be human as he left with the first withdrawal which was mostly fantastical creatures.

Allaria and Caliphim were revived by the Lord of Death, not by the magic mirror. The mirror only made him cry. They were revived to the age they were when they died. So they have the rest of normal life  they would have had before them.

Cats have 9 lives, so by giving one of cat's lives to someone else they can be resurrected.

Apparently resurrections are uncommmon though, since most afterlives do not normally want to give up their souls. Being resurrected does not mean that their life is extended however(they may just continue on with what would be their normal lifespan). So called "old age" deaths probably have limits to resurrection.

As for Magic Fruit its apparently may have extended his life(while also healing his bad health), but did not stop him from aging, as he still continues to age throughout the series including MoE.

shows very little sign of any plague or anything,

The plague came around in Edward's time. Healers and physicians  were not able to cure it. It wiped out most of the citizens of Daventry. Only the strongest survived, or to avoid the disease were forced to leave the kingdom to other lands.

YOu would think, sionce Tamir is much more desolate than Daventry,

I woud have to disagree. the mansion is of victorian architecture, thus showing a higher level of civilization than in Daventry. Hell they had writings of William Shakespeare. So they exist after renaissance time.

Thus more modern living than in Daventry. Which as we have seen are mostly shacks(KQ1, KQ3), and one room stone buildings(MoE).

Hell tamir has the technology of grand father clocks. Clocks do not exist in Daventry. Again evidence of a more modern civilization.

They tell time more through hour glasses or sun dials.

Beyond that the kingdoms look about the same, meadows and forests, so show the same level of 'desolation'(if you consider forests and meadows "desolate").

Green Isles on the other hand is more modern than Daventry(as its advanced nature is commented on by Guidebook, Alexander, and in TSL's game), but not necessarily as modern as "victorian style" architecture.

As a bit of trivia most of the kQ4 headstones are actually headstones epitaphs found on earth, and are of real people that once lived on earth.

[Yonkey]

Technically, bleeding doesn't extend you life either, it was meant to heal you from whatever illness/affliction you had, just as magical people/objects did in the KQ series.   My point was that in using magic, their natural deaths were ultimately extended, just as modern medicine and homeopathic remidies are able to extend ours today.

The irony, of course, is that bleeding was also used against people that believed in magic/witchcraft.

[Petra Rocks]

I think the issue is not so much do magical things exist in Daventry that can cure, but how often are they used.  After all I gather there was some little trouble about getting said fruit, it do not seem to have been the kind of thing sitting the average pharmacy.   

[Baggins]

The fruit only grows once every 100 years, only one fruit, on only one plant. How long does the fruit last on the bush before it falls off and rots?

So ya its a bit difficult to get. Your average cat isn't likely to give away their lives either.

Which brings up another question, if someone is turned into a cat do they gain extra lives?

[TheGreatGraham]

  Does anyone actually know how many wizrds and stuff actually exist during Graham's time.  Because alot of the timeline, as you guys have said, depends on how much magic is actually used.  I'm guessing an averagfe citizen of Daventry would have a lot less chance to get healed by a wizard than Graham and his family. 

Which brings up another question, if someone is turned into a cat do they gain extra lives?

  Hah, it would be funny if they Graham would happen upon Manannan in TSL, and would have to kill him throughout the game nine different times.

[Shades2585]

  Hah, it would be funny if they Graham would happen upon Manannan in TSL, and would have to kill him throughout the game nine different times.

lol That would be funny.

[Baggins]

Well he might have died once, in order to get out of hte bag in Manannan's castle. 

[Petra Rocks]

  Does anyone actually know how many wizrds and stuff actually exist during Graham's time.  Because alot of the timeline, as you guys have said, depends on how much magic is actually used.  I'm guessing an averagfe citizen of Daventry would have a lot less chance to get healed by a wizard than Graham and his family. 

Which brings up another question, if someone is turned into a cat do they gain extra lives?

  Hah, it would be funny if they Graham would happen upon Manannan in TSL, and would have to kill him throughout the game nine different times.

 And good question. A lot of the NPC's you run across in KQ seem to use some sort of magic, but then the 'normal' townsfolk are not always the more prominent NPC's. 

[Baggins]

Well let me list magic wielding, cursed, or magial NPCs from various games and novels, forgive me if it isn't complete, I'm mostly going off the top of my head.

Well in KQ1, the only NPCs that use magic,(or are at least magical creatures) are Dahlia, the Sorcerer, the Leprechauns, the Fairy and the Elf(gives you a magic ring), gnome(straw into gold). All other NPCs either don't use magic, or you use magic to thwart/help them.


In KQ2 original version the magical NPCs are, Enchanter, Hagatha, Unicorn(gives you a magical sugar cube), maybe Dracula(his ability to turn into a bat is likely magical), good fairy, genie, presumably the Mermaids(they could allow graham to travel under water and still be able to breath), the magic talking gold-fish. Everyone else, was probably non-magical.

In KQ3, the only magic using NPCs are Medusa(ability to turn people to stone), Oracle, and Manannan, assuming the old gnome is the same one from KQ1(then its the same magical gnome). Everyone else seemed normal enough.

In KQ4, there is the fairies, 3 witches, and lolotte. In the intro id some dicussion of possibly magic prowess from the castle Physicians. Maybe ghosts, zombies, and mummy if you count those as magical in origin, rather than just paranormal, magic laying hen, frog prince(cursed by magic crown, though probably normal otherwise), Cupid(magic arrows), and unicorn(if you consider unicorns to be magical). Everyone else probably non-magical.

In KQ5, Gypsy Leader(wielded a magical staff, though probably normal otherwise), Old Hag, crispin, genie, Gnome(another straw into gold, possibly the same one from KQ1 according to the companion), Cedric(knew a bit of fairy magic), Madame Mushka, Queen Iceabella(had ability melt/freeze ice cage around cedric), Weeping Willow(cursed by magic, though not a magic user), Blue Beast(could make portals to the dungeon), Manannan(well he used to be able to use magic at least), and Mordack. Everyone else was probably not magical.

In Kq6, Genie, Abdul Alhazred(to what degree is unknown as it seemed he had his genie do most of his magic for him), Beast(cursed with magic, by a hag, and curse would spread to anyone else who came to the island), Lord of the Dead(ability to bring people back to life or take away life instantly), Oracle, and the Druids. People on Isle of the Crown seem to be normal enough (they mention there had only been one other wizard known on the island who poofed himself into an ardvark, Harun al Rashid), and refrence to Shadrack. Isle of wonder, well maybe magical creatures (one creation legend alleges they were created by a wizard), though possibly not able to use magic themselves. There are alot of magical elements on the Isle of the Beast but those are part of the Hag's curse.

KQ7(anyone from Etheria presumably since they are all fairies), Colin Farwalker (had some magical items, though unknown how much magic prowess he actually had),  Queen Mab, the cat(able to give an extra life), Count tsepish, his wife Elspeth, King Otar, and Mathilde,. Almost everyone in Ooga Booga has been given undead life(probably from magical origin). The creatures of Falderal don't seem to show any magical prowess but may be from magical origin. The world of Eldritch is a magical world so practically everything there is likely created from magic, or can use magic.

MoE, the Wizard, Azriel, Sylph, Lady of the Lake, Unicorn, Swamp Wisps, King Mudge,  Swamp Witch, Gnome Sage, Gnome Apothecary, Weirdling Shaman, Queen Freesa, the Archons, Lucretro, Henchmen(created through magic, have ability shape shift). Normal humans were turned into stone (except for a few that escaped the fate by getting into dimension of death), other races somehow were able to avoid that fate.

In the novel, Floating Castle, there is a witch, 3 wizards, one of the wizard's daughter, and a wizard's apprentice (his former master is even mentioned so that's 4 mentioned wizards altogether), and a fairy, castle physician(is mentioned to have some magical prowess). Everyone else is "normal".

In the novel Kingdom of Sorrow, there is the Fairies, Seer of Daventry, Efreeti Kuzgu, Gnomes(who have ability make magical clothing that "sticks" to the glass mountains, but nothing else for traction), the evil wizard Karn Megiddo. All the rest of the characters/creatures seem to have no prowess to use magic..

In See No Weevil, there is dicussion of gnomes have their own particular magic they can weave into whatever they make maybe not even knowing they do it. There is again discussion of at least knowledge of magical cures from the castle Physician. The fairies from the Old Wood show up again. Pied Piper has his own type of magic. Farquhar is a failed student at the magicians' academy and knows a limited number of spells. Dicussion of three "amous wizards from the past(Entomon Wilson, Sorcerer King, Ulan Vasx). All other characters are "normal".

Graham has some magical knowledge of iconomancy, Alexander has had quite a bit of experience using magic in his various adventures, Rosella has used some magical Devices and items. Derek Karlevagen claims to have dabbled in some magic himself.

Overall it seems that in relatively normal kingdom's, such as Daventry magic is usually more rare, so people are more impressed by it. In magical kingdoms like Eldritch encounters with magic is more common, so no one is suprised by it.

[Petra Rocks]

Baggins has returned!  Now vengence shall be ours, and Montezuma  will be avenged! La Noche Triste shall sound on the lips a Spaniards again, and the macuahuitl shall be forged anew!! We shall......


 Errr, why is everyone looking at me like that? Oh right. Ummm, too much sugar.  Anyway. Er. Yeah.

Overall it seems that in relatively normal kingdom's, such as Daventry magic is usually more rare, so people are more impressed by it.

 My guess is that if people are impressed by it, they don't see it on a regular basis.  Thus, I would guess 'magic' does not imporve the lives of Daventries citizens on a regular basis.