The Underworld

[liggy002]

Will the royal family be visiting the underworld in TSL?

[Bludshot]

Possibly, there are two of them after all, three if you count Ooga Booga.

[Boogeyman]

I don't consider the Dimension of Death to be canon, as it is part of MoE.

I would LOVE to see the Isle of the Dead again, assuming there's a good reason to go there. After all... Death waits for no man!

As for my home of Ooga Booga, I don't really consider that an underworld. After all, the area of Vulcanix where the trolls live is BELOW Ooga Booga!

[Bludshot]

If I remember correctly the Realm of the Dead was exclusive to those who died in the land of the Green Isles.  So it's possible that the Dimension of Death is the equivalent for Daventry. 

Anyways, I would love to see the Realm of the Dead again, making Death cry was probably the coolest puzzle in KQVI.  However, I don't see how the writers could justify going there again, considering how difficult it is to leave.

[Storm]

If I remember correctly the Realm of the Dead was exclusive to those who died in the land of the Green Isles.  So it's possible that the Dimension of Death is the equivalent for Daventry. 

I wonder who exactly decided that
When you talk to Death in KQ6, he mentions some dead 'celebrities' (Cleopatra, Juliet or Helen of Troy IIRC) passing his way. They didn't die on The Green Isles, which goes to show KQ6's Realm of the Dead is supposed to be where everybody goes, not just Green Islanders.
If you insist on canonizing MOE, I'd take the Dimension of Death as what it is - a dimension inhabited by undead and ruled by that Azreal character, much like Ooga Booga in KQ7 is a land inhabited by the walking, talking dead, but not THE place when all souls end up after death. I'd hate to think of the DoD as the place all Daventrians end up in *shudders*

[Bludshot]

Hmm...good point, I remember Roberta Williams discussing the difference, I'll try to find it again.  Perhaps the DoD includes the Realm of the Dead?  After all in MOE we only explored the Compound of Death not the entire dimension.  I only try to connect the two because we know that Connor is in TSL, therefore MOE is canon for the game.

[Storm]

From the KQ Omnipedia:
"Roberta's point of view was that the "Dimension of Death" was not the under world(KQ6). It was a unique and different place."
--Mark Seibert, Mask of Eternity's Producer.

(I must add that I don't take as gospel anything else the Omnipedia has to say about these places - it's too full of tedious nitpicking, assumptions, and stating opinions as facts to my liking.)

As I see it, you can take MOE as canon without having to connect them. The games creators certainly didn't make any effort to connect them, I don't see why us fans should

[awesomeasapossum]

Will the royal family be visiting the underworld in TSL?

*don't tell Yonkey!* 
[spoiler]

[Bludshot]

Will the royal family be visiting the underworld in TSL?

*don't tell Yonkey!* 
[spoiler]

[spoiler]Well I hope it's for a good reason.

[PirateKingChris]

The Underworld was one of the things that made KQ6 to me, for sure, the best King's Quest game there is....That being said, I don't see how there could be another visit to it in TSL. What else can you do there? I assume there's not much more to it than you've already seen in KQ6, and what you havent is the room where all the souls just kinda float about I wager, not exactly an exciting location

[Oldbushie]

Best line ever: "Make. Me. Cry."

[tessspoon]

There's a sketch in the gallery called ferryman that reminds me of the underworld ferryman, he looks very zombiesh.

[Bludshot]

Best line ever: "Make. Me. Cry."

Alexander could've just kicked him in the shin instead of wasting a perfectly good mirror.

[Boogeyman]

That might have been the end of him. "Death waits for no man!"

[Baggins]

"wonder who exactly decided that"

One of the staff of the game apparently, Mark Seibert alleged that Roberta Williams had something to do with it when I interviewed him.

not THE place when all souls end up after death. I'd hate to think of the DoD as the place all Daventrians end up in *shudders*

Um, well actually that's what's stated in the manual and the game... More on that below.

In anycase the first hints of the difference between the two come from the manuals. Underworld is said to be a "Green Isles legend" in the manual. Although yes it does seem to suck in dead from other places other than the Green Isles. Additional material can be discovered by looking at various things in the Underworld, and from certain quotes from the characters. Here is the text from the manual, from Part VII Legends and Myths of the Land of the Green Isles;

DEATH TRADITIONS

Death fascinates men the world round, and there are as many philosophies about what comes after this life as there are, it seems, lives which end. I found the Green Islanders to all share a common belief, so strongly held as to seem to defy questioning.

The family of the deceased hold funeral ceremonies a few days after death to bid the soul of their loved a safe passage to the Realm of the Dead. The deceased is buried with the things he or she will need for the journey. The realm of the Dead is a place not of this world. There Death himself rules. Some call him the Lord of Dead, others call him Samhain.

Those souls who have died at peace with their lives are allowed to enter the Underworld and are placed in the Sea of Souls. In that safe repository, they are greeted by ultimate knowledge and are prepared for the next stage.

Those souls, however who died with unresolved trauma in their human lives cannot enter the underworld but are consigned to wander endlessly on the surface of the Realm, chained there by their woes. Sometimes, their life`s problems will be resolved in the real world without them - justice meted out, or loved ones taken care of - and they are freed from their bonds and gratefully go below. More often, however, things are never resolved in the real world and the bonded souls, over time, become part of the mindless dead, roam the surface eternally, never to know peace or be allowed to move on. This belief system deeply affects the lives of the Green Islanders, and is, in my estimation, the root of their peaceful lives and their aversion for friction and infighting, greed and anxiety. Certainly as a man or woman approaches old age or infirmity, he or she strives to resolve any loose ends in their lives in preparation for the journey ahead.

Whereas the manual for MOE states that DOE is the Daventry version of the afterlife. More explanation is made in game by various characters, and inscriptions you can read in the game. Here is one of the quotes from the manual;

"The Dimension of Death is not physically connected to either Daventry or the Swamp, although there are magical portals which can be found in each for hte purposes of travel. These portals have been silent and unseen for centuries, and are but legend in Daventry. Only recently have they opened - as if in preface to the cataclysm.

The Dimension of Death is the holding place of souls awaiting judgement.

Here Lord Azriel rules with the aid of his skeletal guards"

However, it was because of the similarities between the two that I asked him if they were the same place or different, and he gave me the answer, posted above.

You can contact Mark Seibert, yourself here;

http://www.markseibert.com/

In anycase if you look at things in Samhain's throne room (the Sea of Souls behind his throne is one), it describes his underworld as being a kind of limbo that leads to the next stage of the afterlife. This also stated in the KQ6 manual passage I posted above.

It is pretty much the same description given for the Dimension of  Death in MOE.

Both undead realms described as being a kind of limbo which leads to the next stage of the Afterlife.

While not being connected to each other both serve the same function.

Btw, more can be read here;
http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Lord_Azriel

The link contains an accurate paraphrase of information from Azriel's speech, and all descriptions of his purpose made in the game itself. Although changed to a third person format. It has additional links to the "scales of justice" the scales he uses to judge souls for the next stage of the afterlife.

Actually if you haven't noticed alot of the Dimension of Death was based quite a bit on egyptian legends of the passage to the afterlife including the scales.

I must add that I don't take as gospel anything else the Omnipedia has to say about these places

Don't worry, I'm working on adding citations to info that comes directly from an official published source in the future. To seperate the official explanations from what may be speculation.
-Baggins.

[Storm]

Still, nowhere in that lengthy post of yours can I find an explicit quote, from either the manuals, the game creators or the games themselves, which proves your assumption. All you've been able to establish is that both the MOE DoD and the KQ6 Underworld are places where souls go to after they die, and that they are different, separate places (ie. not the same place).
This, of course, creates a contradiction - where do the dead go to, the DoD or The Underworld? You choose to settle this contradiction by saying Green Islanders go to the Underworld, and Daventrians go to the DoD, but that's your choice - since it's not stated explicitly anywhere, it's mere speculation on your part, and just as valid as any other explanation or interpretation anyone else could give (as long as it's plausible and based on canon).

What you're doing is presenting your own explanation as fact, and putting it in Roberta Williams' mouth, no less... not a very good approach when writing a compendium.

I'm working on adding citations to info that comes directly from an official published source in the future. To seperate the official explanations from what may be speculation.

That would be a welcomed improvement.

[Baggins]

No, as afar as I know, in my above post, all I said was that DOD is a legend known in Daventry, as stated in the game/manual of MOE. Its also shown to be located under Daventry.

Whereas, Guidebook/KQ6 states that "The Underworld" is a belief of the Green Islanders. Its also shown to be located under and island near the Green Isles.

I don't think I implied what souls went to which ones. Just where the legends originated.

Also its been confirmed individuals from nations outside of either in-game kingdom have ended up in the realms. In theory one's spirit could probably end up in either one of them. Good luck on knowing who is going to end up where, and how or why they ended up there over the other... Point of note we know that Samhain predicted that Alexander would end up in the Underworld (one must also mention the cutscene if you died in game). So yes we know some Daventry folk do end up in the Underworld even if they perhaps never knew of the place before hand (Alex would have likely known about the Underworld as he owned a copy of Derek's book, before the shipwreck, at least according to the Companion).

I also just pointed out that the descriptions for both are exactly the same in that both are just stop overs  for judgement before a spirit's final resting place is decided, but not the final afterlife, as stated in above quotes.

Please don't put words into my mouth.

Additionally I find it interesting, that it seems that Derek Karlaevaegen had not heard of the Green Isles legend, until he came to the islands. He does mention that he has heard about other philosophies as to what comes after one's life, before he journeyed to the Green Isles;

"there are as many philosophies about what comes after this life as there are, it seems, lives which end."

Speaking of afterlifes, MOE speaks of yet another, the old man, who is apparently one of the last members of the ancient race living in the Underground Gnome Realm, speaks of going to "Spirit-World of Ancient Souls" upon his "death". Its fully capitalized, pronoun. But no clarification as to what he meant is given.

[Storm]

No, as afar as I know, in my above post, all I said was that DOD is a legend known in Daventry...
I don't think I implied what souls went to which ones. Just where the legends originated.
...Please don't put words into my mouth.

In your post, you quoted my saying:

"wonder who exactly decided that"

Which I said in reply to Bludshot's saying:

If I remember correctly the Realm of the Dead was exclusive to those who died in the land of the Green Isles.

Hence, I assumed your reply:

One of the staff of the game apparently, Mark Seibert alleged that Roberta Williams had something to do with it when I interviewed him.

Is saying that the KQ6 Underworld IS exclusive to The Green Isles, because one of the MOE staff, probably Roberta, said so.
I apologize if I misunderstood you in this, but perhaps you should have been clearer in quoting me.
Anyway, I'm not contesting that the Underworld is a part of KQ6 and the DoD is a part of MOE and therefore are mentioned as lore in their respective manuals.

...we know that Samhain predicted that Alexander would end up in the Underworld (one must also mention the cutscene if you died in game).

I wouldn't say he predicted it in the sense that he knows there are other places to go but Alex would end up in his. In KQ6 there was no MOE and DoD yet, so there was really no "who goes where" question - KQ6 treats the Underworld as the only place to go, so both Death and Alex know they'll inevitably meet again.

[Baggins]

KQ6 treats the Underworld as the only place to go

Well, not exactly. There are hints at other "places to go". Although those hints may only exist in the KQ6 manual. I don't remember exactly if they get hinted at in the game itself.

In anycase, the manual discusses 'other places' in two seperate contexts.

1. He mentiones knowing of legends held by other lands of what lies beyond death, which "Derek" can neither prove or deny.

However he only acknowledge that what he learned during his time in Green Isles, has lead him to believe there is truth to their particular legend (or rather as he puts it, the common belief of the Green Islanders is "so strongly held as to seem to defy questioning").

2. He also states that the Green Isles version of the Underworld is a layover or gateway of sorts, that leads to other afterlifes, through the Sea of Souls.

Either allegation, brings up the possiblity and idea of there being  more than one afterlife. Albeit going about the idea in different directions.

How is this relevant exactly? At the time of KQ6 its appears safe to say their was an idea of more than one afterlife (as presented in the manual).

Perhaps at the time of KQ6 development, there was only the idea of one entrance to those afterlives (or at least as it had been alluded to in the manual, the other philosophies hadn't been confirmed).

Although on a related note, it might be interesting to point out for trivia's sake, that in the King's Quest Companion's version of KQ6  there is reference to another location assocated with afterlives, that of land of  "Hades".

The King's Quest Companion points out that its version of the story is based on early development script of KQ6 (KQ5, and 7 adaptations may have been based on predevelopment versions of those stories as well).

Its unknown if the reference to Hades made in the companion was an addition by eluki bes shehar and Peter Spear, or based on reference directly taken from the development script.

Hades is also referenced in the adaptation of KQ5 as well.

[Boogeyman]

And we got to see Hades in QFG5!