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The Underworld

Started by liggy002, January 29, 2008, 09:56:18 PM

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Baggins

Heh heh Ahh the mysteries of the Multiverse. ;-).
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Storm

Quote from: Baggins on March 11, 2008, 06:57:54 PMIn anycase, the manual discusses 'other places' in two seperate contexts.

1. He mentiones knowing of legends held by other lands of what lies beyond death, which "Derek" can neither prove or deny.

However he only acknowledge that what he learned during his time in Green Isles, has lead him to believe there is truth to their particular legend (or rather as he puts it, the common belief of the Green Islanders is "so strongly held as to seem to defy questioning").

2. He also states that the Green Isles version of the Underworld is a layover or gateway of sorts, that leads to other afterlifes, through the Sea of Souls.

Either allegation, brings up the possiblity and idea of there being  more than one afterlife. Albeit going about the idea in different directions.

The KQ6 manual only mentions those other 'death traditions' briefly, and that reference can be interpreted in more than one way. I always took it as hinting that Derek may know of other lands having different death traditions, but the Green Islanders have the 'correct' one since it is "so strongly held as to seem to defy questioning" (this might be explained by the Green Isles' proximity to the underworld).

As for No. 2, I don't think the Sea of Souls leads to a different afterlife, but to the next stage of the same afterlife... unless you're suggesting MOE's Dimension of Death is the next stage, which would make very little sense.


On the same subject -
Have you noticed the philosophical difference between the KQ6 Underworld and the MOE DoD?
The Underworld is much like Hades in earlier Greek mythology - a place where all the dead are 'equal' - there is neither punishment for sinners nor reward for the saints. The only penalty is for those who died with unresolved issues (be they good or evil) and are bound to the surface.
In the DoD, however, souls are weighted against the feather of truth (from Egyptian mythology) to determine where they'll be spending their afterlife.
Which of these approaches fit better with the KQ universe?
"Never argue with idiots. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Baggins

#22
QuoteI always took it as hinting that Derek may know of other lands having different death traditions, but the Green Islanders have the 'correct' one

Actually Derek, clarifies about his opinion of legends surrounding the Realm of the Dead, in one of his letters in the KQC, that;

"Many attest and many have claimed to have seen in the distance, the cold black mountains which lurk above the Isle of the Dead. Legend goes that the Land of the Dead is there, and the very gates of the underworld wait below its surface. There, the Lord of the Dead awaits all. There is no way, of course, in testing the truth of the belief, none who travel to the Land of the Dead return alive, for all must be dead to enter there. Night Mare is the only transportation, and no one has ever tamed or ridden her. Few are interested, or dare. pg, 40, 41

This information obviously was written before Alexander's journey as he doesn't mention that Alexander was the only one to have made it out alive (a fact he knows later, as Alexander tells him in person just before his wedding), and probably apparently written after the Guidebook (as described in other portions of the companion). Going by the information, it would seem that Derek wasn't so sure about Green Islander's legends. He had no specific evidence if it was the truth or just myth, or if all parts of their legend was accurate.

Actually he mentions in another part about how he hears legends of places existing all over the world, and that he is convinced of their existence despite the fact he has never seen them himself.

He also states that,

"As all fantasy eventually becomes truth, some fantasies have always been true. The multiverse is full of surprises" Pg, 231

He means that even if places of legend have a tendency of being the truth, or becoming truth. Infact, he believes that a persion from our world may be able to interact with his world changing it with their dreams, making new realities and influencing their destinies. He also believes that there may be dreamers from his world that are also changing his world with their dreams.

"Here, in Daventry, we are always re-creating ourselves. The great dreamer in your world, the other world as we call it, creates tales and fables from that which is our reality, our histories. I think now that there must be a great dreamer here too; one who has dreamed the fictions of your universe and is creating new realities and histories for us. Our universes are so close together that we dream each other...I think we draw together. You now create your own visions of us, a different Daventry that we inhabit. And now we dream of you. And we change." pg 316, 317

Peter Spear, contemplates earlier in the book that Roberta Williams may be;

"...a great dreamer, one who travels between the worlds in her sleep."

Peter then states that;

"Derek thinks the wall between our worlds is so thin that we sometimes can dream each other." pg xxiii


"...I have spent some time writing you this brief description of my world, my universe, as it appears today. Soon it will be different. This is a world of wonder and magic, and we constantly invent it, much like a tale that a storyteller creates over a thousand and one nights, never knowing what tomorrow's fancies will reveal...Triumph and Tragedy, joy and fear, life and death, good and evil-all are but opposite faces on the dice of existence. One cannot exist without the other, just as perhaps we cannot exist without you-the Other World- or you without us."pg, 41


So to bring it together, essentially all legends in Daventry may have truth to them or will become truth in time. That both people from his world, and from our world may influence the destiny and creation of his world.

He also believes that the world is in some kind of state of magical flux and that kingdoms, lands, and islands can appear and go at any time.

Daventry is a place that is always reinventing itself."pg 234

"My universe is divided into many parts. How many, we may never know, for we are always reinventing ourselves, and today's count of the number of realms, and kingdoms, and deserts, and islands, and mountains to hold up the sky will be different tomorrow. It will be different again the day after tomorrow, and the day after that, and again, and again. Today's fact is tomorrow's anachronism. In a world of magic and wonders, all is possible--if not inevitable."pg. 32

He states this is very common in the area surrounding the Land of the Green Isles.

"In a world a world where we continually reinvent ourselves, the Green Isles is where re-creation is noticed most. Islands come and go; some transmogrify from wood into jungle to desert to mountain to sea. Others appear, then vanish, daily. Their numbers change like waves on the beach, building up and then retreating. Some days or months or years there are more; other times, fewer..."pg 38

From a real world standpoint, these explanations were actually designed in order to explain why there are inconsistencies between various details in the various games, and versions of the games. Even the first seven games were not always consistent with each other.

A good example for anyone keeping track in the older games is the shape of the continent of Daventry in King's Quest 3, versus information seen in King's Quest 5. That is Gwydian lands on the northern shore of Daventry in KQ3 and crosses the mountains to reach the kingdom. Graham can be seen flying over the northern mountains above Daventry in KQ5 and flying over into land of Serenia, with no ocean in between.

We see that Serenia is connected to Daventry, and is located to the north of where that shore in KQ3 is located. See the King's Questions Map, or the map in King's Quest Companion for an idea of the appearance of the later conceived map. It can be seen that continent where Daventry/Serenia are located changed shape between the development of KQ3 and KQ5 (when they decided to connect Daventry to Serenia).
QuoteI don't think the Sea of Souls leads to a different afterlife, but to the next stage of the same afterlife... unless you're suggesting MOE's Dimension of Death is the next stage, which would make very little sense.
Actually, what I meant was that underworld/seas of souls is described in a similar way that DoD is described that both act as a limbo in which souls are placed until they go onto "next stage".

In traditional mythology or Christian literature the "next stage" is often split into several locations, often some close to heaven, and others similar to hell. For example, the Elyssian Fields and Tarturus of Hades (Greeks). Another example in classic literature, was Dante's Inferno which had several stages, including nine circles of hell, the seven terraces of purgatory, and the nine spheres of heaven.

As both DoD and Underworld are both described as being gateways of sorts leading to the "next stage", neither would lead into each other. They would lead to whatever respective next stage those particular gateways lead to. Basically DoD and Underworld serve the same purpose, as some kind of gate way leading to next part of the afterlife for each individual souls.

In both, an incarnation of Death exists, for one its Samhain, in the other its Lord Azriel. In both realms, it is the purpose of said beings to judge souls, before they can pass onto their next stage

Both contain lost souls and zombies roaming their "surfaces", beings not allowed to pass on to the next stage.

For trivia's sake, Azriel, (aka Azrael, and any other alternate spellings) is the name of the "angel of death" in some traditions. It is one of many names that is used to personify Death as a "lord of death,  as seen in various cultures (think Grim Reaper, Samael, etc). Note, from a King's Quest standpoint it is not the first time that world culture, has inspired two separate characters in King's Quest mythos, take for example, Count Dracula, and his counterpart the Headless Horseman, "Vladimir Tsepish"(both characters partly inspired by the real life Vlad the Impaler). Rumplestiltkin has possibly inspired two different characters, the gnomes in KQ1 and 3, and the one in KQ5, although (KQC gives the idea that the gnomes in all three games may be the same character, or at least Graham thinks so.)

QuoteThe Underworld is much like Hades in earlier Greek mythology - a place where all the dead are 'equal' - there is neither punishment for sinners nor reward for the saints. The only penalty is for those who died with unresolved issues (be they good or evil) and are bound to the surface.
As for greek actually, while there was one Hades, there were sections for different people, based on their deeds in life. Tarturas conformed more to Judeo/Christian idea of Hell, while Elyssian Fields was more like judeo/Cristian view of heaven. That is evil went to Tarturas, while the good went to Elysian Fields. Note, its more accurate to say that Judeo-Christian descriptions of heaven and hell probably were inspired from earlier greek and egyptian myth.

There were additional locations in hades mentioned in other legends that fit into ideas of people being judged good or evil as well, such as the Garden of the Hesperides/Isle of the Blessed, where good heroes dwell.

So yes there is an idea in greek mythology that souls are judged, either good or evil, and that rewards exist for 'saints' and 'sinners' are punished.

Additionally, I should point out that there is an idea of a limbo in greek mythology as well, for souls that were stuck from moving on to their respective sections of Hades. For example souls that did not have the copper to pay of Charon or in some versions, Phlegyas may be left wandering the shores of the River Styx, or other areas before the river.

The idea that souls are judged either as good or evil is very common in greek tradition. However, the way souls are judged just differs from that of the Egyptian myths.

So essentially your interpretation of KQ6 following the "Greek afterlife" may be flawed (or rather ignores some of the more important aspects of the underworld of Greek Myth as well as specific details mentioned in KQ6 or relating literature). While I agree its definitely based on ideas from greek mythology (obviously with the reference to Charon and Styx), your idea that all souls are equal in KQ6 is a bit flawed.

In Greek Myth, at least the later accounts, not all souls were considered equal, as there were different locations for different souls, Tartarus, Elysian Fields, etc.

I'm not so sure if, KQ6 version of the Underworld made all souls as "equal", however. Even KQ6 brings up the idea of "judging souls" under the backstory for Samhain, as his purpose in the underworld. If is purpose is to judge, then obviously not all souls are treated as 'equals' as you put it.

Although yes, there is definitely information mentioned about where souls at peace vs. those with unresolved trauma go in the afterflife, brought up in the KQ6 material. So his judgement may be related to that only. However, it doesn't seem that any of the surface souls ever reach Samhain to be judged, but rather only those that reach him in the Underworld. However, judgement would still denote that souls are not treated as equals.

The Sierra, KQ6 Hint Book (by Lorelei Shannon) hints that one comes before Samhain before being judged.

It seems to separate souls into two camps, those stuck on the surface, never allowed to enter the Underworld, until something is resolved on the surface, and those that are allowed into the Underworld, to go before Samhain to be judged. The latter are judged before being sent to the Sea of Souls, and the "next stage" of their afterlife. It would seem that such judgement would have to have some kind of affect on whatever happens in their "next stage" (this would emply that each soul depending on how they are judged, will be treated differently in the next stage).

Although, hypotethetically, if he somehow made his judgement before spirits ever come before him, and his judgement was to either keeping certain souls from entering the underworld, or letting others pass, it would almost make the surface at the most hell, and at the least a kind of purgatory (until their chains are undbound). While underworld, especially beyond the sea of souls more of a heaven like reward.

Either way, judgement would still be involved, and that makes it quite a bit different than the "early greek myths", and would actually imply its more closer to later greek myths.

As to how much of KQ6 underworld is meant to be based off the Greek Hades, is debateable, I suppose. If it was intended to be the greek underworld, "Hades" then Samhain would be somewhat closer to representing the god Hades, in some respects. It would be his job to decide beyond the 'Sea of Souls' if said souls would end up in Tartarus (hell), the Elysian Fields (heaven) or Garden of the Hesperides/Blessed Isle of the Just, etc.

On the other hand, if its not meant to be directly the underworld of Hades, and only adopted a few elements of greek mythology, then whatever the outcome beyond whatever type of judgement takes place, and what goes on beyond the Sea of Souls could be very different.

If I get more time I should take more time to check to see if fhe King's Quest Companion, added to the mythology for Samhain and the Underworld as far as describing its purpose, and geography. As I recall it may have hinted that souls are judged. Although I can't remember if it was specific as to how they were judged, what they were judged on, etc.

I suppose its possible there is contradictory information between the various sources. However, it could be just more detailed versions of what merits he judges individual souls on.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg