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The Silver Lining - Cease and Desist

Started by Yonkey, February 27, 2010, 08:59:56 PM

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Loigan


atec123

Quote from: Loigan on May 23, 2010, 07:23:25 PM
News?  News?  :(
nope, nope.

Not for now at least.

check out  the save tsl website and all that stuff if you haven't though.  There is some stuff going on in the background.
Official maintainer of TSL in linux via Wine. TSL AppDB page
Maintainer of TSL in OSX via Wine
TSL IRC Chatroom Maintainer
We are the Defenders of Jazz Ballet
People say, when they see us:
Hey, folks! It's the Saviours of Jazz Ballet
Fearless heroes of kick and spin

Cvmaas

Hope I don't get flamed for this, but why not just drop the source code as open source and let someone overseas compile it and drop it on the torrent networks?  If I can pirate any game I want, it doesn't make a lot of sense that a fan made game could actually be stopped from being released. No matter how you cut it, TSL infringed on the KQ ip, so why not accept it and "illegally" release it, it's hard to image this project being started with that not being the plan from the beginning.

Kq1vga is allowed to live on because its already all over the net, and one team or group could clean it off if they wanted to.

Enchantermon

I wish people would stop suggesting this.
If POS were to release TSL illegally, not only would they get in legal trouble, but they would lose any chance of actually becoming a respected studio developing their original IP. So they're not going to do it. Period.
Quote from: Cvmaas on May 29, 2010, 12:00:14 PMIf I can pirate any game I want . . .
Just because you can pirate games doesn't make it legal or morally acceptable.
Quote from: Cvmaas on May 29, 2010, 12:00:14 PMKq1vga is allowed to live on because its already all over the net, and one team or group could clean it off if they wanted to.
No, not really. They could try, but it would keep popping back up. It's been spread so far and wide by now that there's no erasing it completely.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Cvmaas

We both said the same thing about kq1vga, it's too wide spread to get rid of, and hence not worth Activisions time to even try it.  In the meantime, it's been updated, so it looks as though AGD have been able to continue on with the ip, and without legal trouble.

I'm pretty sure no one is going to think pirating is legal, nor did I give the impression that it was, but taking a studios ip and using it for your own purpose, fan game or not, is pirating. Just because they aren't looking to make money on the game doesn't make it much different than me downloading games and saying it's ok because I wasn't going to buy it anyway. That's why I don't understand why this project is willing to throw away 10 years worth of work, so you can say you are now on the up and up. Activision wouldn't have sent a C&D if what they were doing was legal. It started off illegal, and it's being ruined trying to pretend it was anything different when the project started.

If they want to be a respectable studio, buy other studios, not just fans, they should take out all reference to KQ in the game and make it their own and stand on it's own.  I want KQ9, they can deliver that, or deliver something else that's respectable and maybe I'd be interested in it. Can't have both.

Erpy

KQ1VGA was a completely different matter. The TSL-team was contacted BEFORE they got around to releasing their game. AGDI wasn't contacted until AFTER both KQ1VGA and KQ2+ were already out. (AGDI kept such a low profile with KQ1VGA that most fans didn't even know about it, I'm not certain if they even had a board a few weeks before the game came out)

There's a large difference between releasing a game based on someone's IP WITHOUT their permission and releasing it AGAINST their permission. The first one might or might not get you into trouble, the second is almost guaranteed to get ugly.


Enchantermon

Quote from: Cvmaas on May 29, 2010, 02:00:50 PMWe both said the same thing about kq1vga, it's too wide spread to get rid of, and hence not worth Activisions time to even try it.
It doesn't seem like that's what you were saying, but if it is, then okay, I agree.
Quote from: Cvmaas on May 29, 2010, 02:00:50 PMIt started off illegal, and it's being ruined trying to pretend it was anything different when the project started.
Erpy's right. Doing it without permission and against permission are two different matters.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Cvmaas

Without permission and against permission are both the same in the eyes of the law! If it makes you feel better to try and make that distinction go ahead, but in court it won't stick. You took someones ip, they don't need to say NO, you don't have permission for it to be against the law.  The law is it is their ip, and if someone knowingly uses it, they violated the law. If the owner of the ip wanted to, they could bring the same legal troubles to AGD as you fear them bringing to TSL.  Just because they haven't doesn't make it a legal distinction between the two.

Enchantermon

#848
I see what TSL is doing (and what AGD did) as being in the same vein as what fanartists and fanfiction writers are doing. They're borrowing an IP and using it to develop their own ideas for non-profit reasons. It's all illegal, technically, but generally fanfiction and fanart are not acted upon. They're widespread, hard to control and, lets face it, not a big threat to major corporations (unless the writers or artists started selling the work that contained IP they didn't own).
I don't think fangames are really all that different, they're just targeted more because their easier to shut down and don't exist in great quantities.
It's pretty much an "I don't care" scenario. Fanart and fanfiction have grown to the point where they're still technically illegal, but corporations don't care. Fangames, as they see it, are still manageable, and so they do care. It doesn't make fanfiction and fanart any less illegal, just a little less immoral (depending on where your morals are to begin with). Now that Activision has specifically said about this fangame "We care and we don't want you doing this," the best course of action is to work with them, not against them. It would be the same as if J.K. Rowling decided to say, "No more Harry Potter fanfiction!" and started sending out C&D letters to fanfiction websites demanding the removal of all Harry Potter material. At that point, it's no longer "I don't care" but now "I do care, and you need to stop."
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

waltzdancing

It is true that they are both against the law, but releasing something that has clearly been shut down is going to get you into more trouble than just releasing something that was under the radar. The creators of TSL thought they fell under the fair use clause, which would make them legal.

The company felt differently hence the C&D. POS is being responsible by stopping production and engaging in talks. This is the correct move and the best way to proceed as they have said they have plans to make their own games after TSL. I support their decision and will continued to send our complaints to Activision until they hear us. Contract or no, the fans are not going to let this game go so easily. TSL was contracted before the game was released but with the company sift things get lost of overlooked.  Don't give up so easily. After every storm there is always a rainbow and a blue sky.

Erpy

QuoteWithout permission and against permission are both the same in the eyes of the law! If it makes you feel better to try and make that distinction go ahead, but in court it won't stick.

In theory, yes. In practice, there's a difference. Companies aren't eager to drag fan teams to court and deal with expensive lawsuits, so they usually send out C&D's first, assuming the fans are ignorant of their own legal status, to remove the benefit of the doubt the teams are operating under. When a C&D is ignored, only then will an IP holder take a lawsuit up as the only viable option.

QuoteIf the owner of the ip wanted to, they could bring the same legal troubles to AGD as you fear them bringing to TSL.  Just because they haven't doesn't make it a legal distinction between the two.

If the IP holder wanted AGDI to stop their activities, they'd terminate the contract we have with them, which they are legally entitled to. (the contract can be terminated by either party at any time) The difference between AGDI and POS was mainly the fact that AGDI's case was about honoring an existing contract while POS' case was about creating a new contract. What exactly was your point again?


Enchantermon

Quote from: Erpy on May 30, 2010, 07:43:51 AMIf the IP holder wanted AGDI to stop their activities, they'd terminate the contract we have with them, which they are legally entitled to.
Woah, AGDI has a contract? With Activision? I didn't realize that.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

oberonqa

#852
This has been hashed and rehashed so many times my head spins at merely trying to add up the number of times it's been hashed and rehashed (all in the 40+ pages of this very thread, I might add).

But what it really boils down to is we're going to this the right way.  If we can't do it the right way, then we won't do it at all.  Simply releasing the game as open-source isn't even remotely possible, as the game utilizes TorqueEngine, which is NOT applicable to open-source.  

And even if TSL was built around a non-licensed engine, there's still the matter of the C&D to contend with.  We're not going to ignore that C&D.  We are still talking with Activision and that is good.  We won't do anything to jeapordize on-going talks with Activision.  About the only thing I can suggest the fans do is be patient and continue taking part in the Save TSL Movement.  

Rome was not built in a day and so too TSL will not be released in a day.  
 
Chronicling the history of Sierra through the conversion of it's premiere magazine into an easy-to-use, searchable wiki format.

Erpy

QuoteWoah, AGDI has a contract? With Activision? I didn't realize that.

The contract AGDI has was finalized back when Vivendi was still running things. But it remains valid until termination by one of the parties involved, even if the IP changes owners like it did with Activision. This is generally how things go with contracts...certainly you don't think that when merging with a multinational like VU Games, all legal agreements which they ever went into (thousands upon thousands with such a large company) are automatically voided and have to be manually renewed? If so, nobody would ever merge or buy companies. It'd be too much work.


Enchantermon

Quote from: Erpy on May 30, 2010, 03:49:34 PMThis is generally how things go with contracts...certainly you don't think that when merging with a multinational like VU Games, all legal agreements which they ever went into (thousands upon thousands with such a large company) are automatically voided and have to be manually renewed?
No, no, of course not. I was under the assumption that contracts just transfer to the new owner. So if you made a contract with Vivendi, then it becomes a contract with Activision (which is why I said Activision in my post; I assumed that the contract was made back before the buyout). I was just surprised because I wasn't aware that there was any contract at all. In fact, until you mentioned it in this thread, I didn't know that AGDI had even been in contact with Vivendi and Activision about the remakes.
I never spent much time in the Tierra/AGDI forums, though, which is probably why I was clueless.
Also, sorry, this is off topic but it's been bugging me for a while now...what anime is your avatar from, Erpy?
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Angelic_Sabyne

Quote from: oberonqa on May 30, 2010, 01:21:52 PM
This has been hashed and rehashed so many times my head spins at merely trying to add up the number of times it's been hashed and rehashed (all in the 40+ pages of this very thread, I might add).

But what it really boils down to is we're going to this the right way.  If we can't do it the right way, then we won't do it at all.  Simply releasing the game as open-source isn't even remotely possible, as the game utilizes TorqueEngine, which is NOT applicable to open-source.  

And even if TSL was built around a non-licensed engine, there's still the matter of the C&D to contend with.  We're not going to ignore that C&D.  We are still talking with Activision and that is good.  We won't do anything to jeapordize on-going talks with Activision.  About the only thing I can suggest the fans do is be patient and continue taking part in the Save TSL Movement.  

Rome was not built in a day and so too TSL will not be released in a day.  

You aren't the only one, Oberonqa.  Is there a way to put up a posting somewhere on the forums that lists "Things that have been discussed to Death and beyond in the C&D thread and why they're infeasible/possible/etc"?  That way, all one has to do is put up a link whenever someone mentions something that's on the list and that's that.

And thanks for the word that you're still talking with Activision.  I know the corporate world moves slower than molasses in Antarctica most times, but it's reassuring to hear from someone in the know that talks are still going on.  :)

oberonqa

That's something I could look into Angellic.  :)
 
Chronicling the history of Sierra through the conversion of it's premiere magazine into an easy-to-use, searchable wiki format.

Erpy

QuoteI was just surprised because I wasn't aware that there was any contract at all. In fact, until you mentioned it in this thread, I didn't know that AGDI had even been in contact with Vivendi and Activision about the remakes.
I never spent much time in the Tierra/AGDI forums, though, which is probably why I was clueless.
Also, sorry, this is off topic but it's been bugging me for a while now...what anime is your avatar from, Erpy?

My signature pics are from Lunar:Silver Star Story Complete for the PSX.

AGDI was the first fan group to be offered a fan license, actually. (it's why we changed our name from Tierra to AGD Interactive in 2003) We were contacted late 2003 and a fan license was hammered out in secret behind the scenes. The whole thing took nearly a year to finalize (what's said about the corporate world moving slowly is absolutely correct, especially on non-profit cases) and after it was done we were allowed to put a disclaimer on our site, but they preferred if we didn't make a publicity stunt out of it. Our forum regulars have known since the end of 2004, but the public at large remained unaware until TSL's shutdown in 2005 when people questioned why AGDI wasn't targetted. I'm fairly sure the fan license TSL was offered in 2005 was largely based on the contract that was made for AGDI.


oberonqa

Oh I'm sure there were some pretty big differences between the contracts, Erpy.  After all, if our contract was based off of  the AGD contract, I'm pretty sure you would have gotten a C&D.

I haven't seen your contract just as you have not seen our contract, so it's largely conjecture at this point... but it would be unwise to assume the contract we secured in 2005 was in any way, shape, or form based on the AGD contract.
 
Chronicling the history of Sierra through the conversion of it's premiere magazine into an easy-to-use, searchable wiki format.

Enchantermon

Quote from: Erpy on May 30, 2010, 11:31:23 PMMy signature pics are from Lunar:Silver Star Story Complete for the PSX.
Ah, okay. Thanks. :)
Quote from: Erpy on May 30, 2010, 11:31:23 PMAGDI was the first fan group to be offered a fan license, actually. (it's why we changed our name from Tierra to AGD Interactive in 2003)
Ah, so that's why.
Quote from: Erpy on May 30, 2010, 11:31:23 PMWe were contacted late 2003 and a fan license was hammered out in secret behind the scenes. The whole thing took nearly a year to finalize (what's said about the corporate world moving slowly is absolutely correct, especially on non-profit cases) and after it was done we were allowed to put a disclaimer on our site, but they preferred if we didn't make a publicity stunt out of it.
Understandable. I guess they didn't want to set a precedent or blow the whole thing out of proportion; maybe they just really liked the work you were doing. Was the initial contact hostile, or was Vivendi just interested in setting up some ground rules?

Sorry if I'm prying too much, I'm just curious. If there's anything you don't feel comfortable sharing, I apologize for asking.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!