Question about the Intro

[Baggins]

Well, I"m American too. . But anyways.

As we know he was given the kingship through succession, and was made an heir. He wasn't born into it. So bloodline wise ya he's lower born, a minor knight of the realm. He's just happens to be given the position of king. Whereas it seems Valanice was always at least a princess.

Come to think of it Derek/Alexander points out this fact a few times in the KQ6 novel I think, when he talks about Hereward, Graham's father.

Also if it wasn't for the fact that Hereward was mentioned to be a nobleman there may have been no indication of Graham's pedigree. I don't think there is anything mentioned in the games. Other than "knight"?

Come to think, I know its not canon, but  isn't there a story in TSL, that mentioned that Graham was actually lower class, and became a knight through his deeds rather than birth? Or was that only in the demo?

[Haids1987]

Hmmm.  See, that's what confuses me.  It seems like he would be considered higher than Valanice because he IS the king, even if he didn't descend from royalty.  He would start a new (cooler!) bloodline, and that would be considered "royal blood."  Does the fact that his father wasn't a king make Rosella and Alex more lowborn than a prince or princess whose parents WERE kings? 

I don't know if I'm making sense.  But I know what I mean.

[Baggins]

Well it depends on royalty system.

For example the Queen is the Queen of England right now because she has the royal blood connection, whereas her husband does not. So he's lower class than her. If she dies, not sure does it pass onto the prince of Wales? Who is the prince of wales right now? I remember hearing that it will probably skip Prince Charles to one of his sons, Harry I think.

In hawaii there were cases where one of the kamehemeha's was lower status than his wife. Actually as you hinted at, marrying outside of a certain status could lower the person's status further in that culture as I recall. On the other hand it could also raise someone's status to marry certain people, and thus they would do this position themselves into power. But I don't think Daventry is hawaian style.

But all I have for evidence of how royalty might work in Daventry is Graham's thoughts in Kingdom of Sorrow, Valanice in that novel, and a few vague references by Alexander and/or Derek in the Companion, :p...

He's definitely formed a new house, but I don't think he's lowered Valanice stature. He may have raised it as well. But how heridetary systems work is overly complicated... I took a bit of English history and the alliances and marriages, decisions on who would become king if the king died, or via coup, made things down right confusing :p... There were wars fought over the position because certain individuals that took over, put into power, weren't as "high born" as they should have been and someone else had a better heriditary claim :p... Many kings constantly were trying to create evidence to prove that they had legitimage heriditary ties :p... sorry if I can't give you specific examples, its been awhle.

Actually I seem to recall in one of the novels there was a knight or something, that the book points out as having higher status as far as nobility claim than Graham, (although he respects Graham and doesn't make a point of flaunting it or trying to challegen Graham), :p... might have been in Floating Castle...

Hmm come to think of it I'm reminded of Richard II of England, his uncle John of Gaunt had a higher claim to the throne over his nephew, but never pushed that fact, and honored his nephew's position. Although he legally could have made the claim and challenged Richard.However, it would have probably started a civil war, and he knew his power was probably stronger as the right hand to the king, and as his advisor. It did ultimately lead to a civil war within a generation or two, if I remember history correctly...

[KatieHal]

Where did it ever say anything about Valanice's parents? I was pretty sure we'd never gotten anything about her before Graham rescued and married her.

[Rosella]

I'm not sure. I'm guessing it was somewhere in the companion, but I definitely remember knowing that her parents were Cedric and Coignice.

[Baggins]

Its mentioned in the KQ4 chapter of the Companion, and original and second edition in the An Encyclopedia of Daventry.

[crayauchtin]

As for the KQ world? I would not be surprised if they had the feeling of "something missing." I could see Rosella, hope magnet she is, believing Alexander was alive and would come back even if/when Graham and Valanice could no longer do so.  It could also explain why she believed this slave boy in tattered clothing so easily. Likewise, it could also be why "Gwydion" could feel in his heart the Oracle's story was true, even if that mean his whole life was false.

I've even read of twin's psychically (kinda) knowing whether or not the other was alive. Rosella probably knew for certain that Alexander was alive, despite the fact that eventually their parents gave up.
And, while such strong connections are generally reserved for identical twins, that doesn't seem to always be the case 100% of the time. Maybe that's what makes Alexander and Rosella so special!

Baggins, as for your bringing sexuality into the twins discussion.... one scientific theory *does* explain that, kind of... and only with males, although most of the identical twins I know... both twins have the same sexuality (even though, usually, one is more masculine and one is more feminine).
First of all, homosexual males have a larger hypothalamus (part of the brain) than heterosexual males. How that factors in, I'm not sure, I'm not a scientist. Then, scientists point to the fact that male fetuses often have a higher risk of miscarriage or other complications due to the fact that the females body isn't used to the hormones and such caused by the Y chromosome. So, some scientists have a theory that the females womb attempts to "correct" the issue and the result is a homosexual boy. The scientists who think this also seem to think that in the case of twins, it might not affect both of them! Again, I'm not a scientist, I don't understand.... I just think it's neat!

Allronix, bless you and your twin for trying to look different. One pairs of identicals I know, I swear, they try to look the same! I still can't tell them apart!

One nice thing about the world of Daventry versus the real world in that time period is that status doesn't seem to be as much of an issue.

[Baggins]

've even read of twin's psychically (kinda) knowing whether or not the other was alive

Right, I know what your referring to, although that's going into the realm of psuedoscience. I can't think of any credible scientists that acknowledge "psychics"... :p Psychic twins in a fantasy world, anything can happen. But in real life, erm... I'm a bit skeptical, and I'd personally avoid using examples of "pseudoscience" to try to explain how it might work in a fantasy setting... :p Better to just say, it would be interesting from a "fantasy perspective"... No offense to anyone out there that believes in psychics... Its just difficult for my scientific background.

In anycase, actually where I've heard these stories, it was always with "identical twins". I don't think I've read one example in fraternal twins (as in non-identical).

Although "identical" twins are not necessarily complete "identical".
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/health/11real.html

http://www.pnas.org/content/102/30/10604.full

One nice thing about the world of Daventry versus the real world in that time period is that status doesn't seem to be as much of an issue.

Depends on the king's quest source really, some hint at issues, others overlook it... The games themselves don't really ever go into I don't think (other than it was beneath the "Handsome Prince" to be interested in a "commoner" in KQ4)... :p

MOE looked at a different side of things, in that Connor proved that you didn't have to be related to royality to have Nobility. As he proves to various characters, and various characters comment on.

[Fierce Deity]

've even read of twin's psychically (kinda) knowing whether or not the other was alive

Right, I know what your referring to, although that's going into the realm of psuedoscience. I can't think of any credible scientists that acknowledge "psychics"... :p Psychic twins in a fantasy world, anything can happen. But in real life, erm... I'm a bit skeptical, and I'd personally avoid using examples of "pseudoscience" to try to explain how it might work in a fantasy setting... :p Better to just say, it would be interesting from a "fantasy perspective"... No offense to anyone out there that believes in psychics... Its just difficult for my scientific background.

In anycase, actually where I've heard these stories, it was always with "identical twins". I don't think I've read one example in fraternal twins (as in non-identical).

Although "identical" twins are not necessarily complete "identical".
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/health/11real.html

http://www.pnas.org/content/102/30/10604.full

I always thought that the "psychic twins" belief was loosely based on the social connection of the twins. I don't think they actually can read the other twin's mind. It's just because they are constantly around each other that they may know the other twin better than they know themselves. I've met a set of twins that were like that, and then I met another set of twins that hated each other and actually moved away from each other the first chance they got.

So any theory about "psychic twins" is probably based on a pair of twins that are best friends, cause there definitely isn't any biological evidence that shows that twins are connected through their psyche.

[wilco64256]

Well there was that Lindsey Lohan movie...

[Fierce Deity]

Well there was that Lindsey Lohan movie...

Wilco has a very valid point. If Lindsey Lohan can do it, then anyone can. 

[Baggins]

If Lindsay Lohan can go to jail, anyone can.

[Deloria]

Well it depends on royalty system.

For example the Queen is the Queen of England right now because she has the royal blood connection, whereas her husband does not. So he's lower class than her. If she dies, not sure does it pass onto the prince of Wales? Who is the prince of wales right now? I remember hearing that it will probably skip Prince Charles to one of his sons, Harry I think.

Should Elizabeth II die, the crown will go directly to her son, Charles, Prince of Wales. Skipping generations would be illegal.

EDIT: Unless, of course, there's a reason someone can't accept the crown (usually religion, though I think there are a few other excluding factors).

[darthkiwi]

Should Elizabeth II die, the crown will go directly to her son, Charles, Prince of Wales. Skipping generations would be illegal.

I'm pretty sure this is true. The only other possibility that I can think of is that Elizabeth II's husband (Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh) would retain his current position. But that doesn't really make sense, because he is not actually King, he just happens to be married to the Queen.

Unless, of course, there's a reason someone can't accept the crown (usually religion, though I think there are a few other excluding factors).

Religion is indeed a factor: no Catholic can inherit the throne of England. This is because James II (who ruled in the late 17th century) was a Catholic and aimed to make England a Catholic country again; most of his subjects were not Catholic and saw this as a huge problem. To be honest the law's very out of date now but nobody seems worried enough to change it (probably because there aren't any Catholics who look likely to inherit at the moment).

Apart from that, I can't think of any other reasons why someone who is in line to the throne would be barred from inheriting - unless, of course, they are born out of wedlock.

Of course, you could say that it's unfair that all daughters are barred from inheriting the throne until their brothers die (as in the case of Mary I and Elizabeth I). But that's a whole other kettle of fish.

[Deloria]

Should Elizabeth II die, the crown will go directly to her son, Charles, Prince of Wales. Skipping generations would be illegal.

I'm pretty sure this is true. The only other possibility that I can think of is that Elizabeth II's husband (Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh) would retain his current position. But that doesn't really make sense, because he is not actually King, he just happens to be married to the Queen.

I've considered this. Dowager prince, perhaps? It's not a situation that's ever come up before.

Actually, that's not quite true. Philip II outlived his wife, though I'm unsure of what his title was after her death, or if, indeed, he had one (didn't he have enough? ).

Apart from that, I can't think of any other reasons why someone who is in line to the throne would be barred from inheriting - unless, of course, they are born out of wedlock.

It's been ages since I read the succession laws in the Bill of Rights and the Act of Settlement, but I thought there were a few others?

I believe I also recall something about the spouses of Roman Catholics being unable to inherit the throne (as IIRC the reason for James II's conversion to Catholicism was the fact that he married an Italian princess, Mary of Modena).

(Posted on: 31 July 2010, 22:21:55)

For Haids and Baggins:

Valanice was higher born, but Graham holds a higher title than she. Snobs might consider her to have married down as Graham was little more than a commoner (I believe it's said somewhere that he was but a peasant but eventually became a page, then a squire, then a knight, then a king) and by extension, a barbarian. In practice though this doesn't matter as marriages were not made for class and in order to breed cultivated young men and women so much as political advantage or, in this case, love. Valanice's lineage is much better as she is technically descended from a prince and the mother was a commoner-made-princess.

[Baggins]

Deloria, I've talked to many people in England on the situation. Apparently the problem with Charles is Camilla.

Apparently traditionally if a Prince married someone who had an affair with another man, then it apparently could forfeit the Prince of Wales's succession to the throne. Essentially it would make it illegal for them to become king.

Those of the more conservative bent want that to take place, and would rather Prince William step into place instead.

Whereas more liberal system, thinks that law is outdated, and should be ignored.

Basically it lead to some rumors of someone from inside Buckingham Palace exposing some memo, that said that the Queen was grooming William as a Shadow King (taking on some of her duties while she lives), and would take her place when she passed away.

Which William later denied.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/theroyalfamily/6925437/Prince-William-I-will-not-become-shadow-king.html

Beyond that it may just be politics as usual (I don't understand British politics) and just smear campaign from conservatives against liberals, and an attempt to discredit Charles.

I believe it's said somewhere that he was but a peasant but eventually became a page, then a squire, then a knight, then a king

That's what was said in the Silver Lining IIRC, at least in the demo version.

Not in the KQ games though (his background isn't really given, other than he was Edward's favorite and bravest knight). Actually King's Quest Companion says he's the son of Hereward, who was of noble birth himself (and the king's best friend). Although apparently only minor nobility under the Knighthood.

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Hereward

His mother's name isn't given, but it is implied that she was a Lady of noble birth herself. Its not clear what level, however.

There are actually few references to other nobles in the kingdom in the official games, other than dukes and earls being referenced in the KQ2 manual, and nobles at the end of KQ1 remake.

The novels went a bit further, talking about several nobles in the kingdom, barons, dukes, etc. IIRC there was at least one knight in The Floating Castle, who always made a big deal about how he had higher nobility than the King  (and by virtue had a better claim to the throne), although like John of Gaunt, he respects the king and supports him, and had no intention of challenging him.

In Kingdom of Sorrow, Valanice is proud of her noble station, berates Graham for not living up to his title, she complains about his choice of wearing lower class clothing in court (old thread bear jerkin), and tells him to wear a wardrobe better fitting his station when in court. BTW, she doesn't seem to have a problem with him wearing his simple adventurer clothing when he is out journeying abroad however (she just prefers when he seeing to the business of the kingdom that he better presents himself). This may have to do with the fact that there are other nobles in the kingdom such as said Dukes and Earls that may have higher nobility than him, and he needs to portray himself at their stature.