Author Topic: Questions about (long) narrations!  (Read 25483 times)

Offline Erpy

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2010, 03:37:32 AM »
From a programming point of view, such a thing is easy. Whenever you click on a hotspot, a variable is upped and depending on the variable's value, a simple or extended description is given. I found Sinister's suggestion a very smart one as well...it's way more elegant than an option that has to be toggled. First time you click you get a normal description and subsequent times can yield backstory. Eventually it starts looping. Normal descriptions shouldn't be ordinary "It's a vase."-lines though. While background descriptions lost part of their function as visuals improved, they're still important to set the mood of a scene and even shortened ones should convey whatever atmosphere you want the environment to give off. Likewise, overly flowery prose can probably benefit from editing even if it takes 2 or 3 clicks on a hotspot to display.

Offline Cez

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2010, 04:16:57 AM »
The idea doesn't work with the way narrations are written. It would yield lose narrations and would require re-recording and re-editing which is something we are not doing at this point.


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Offline MusicallyInspired

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2010, 08:49:54 AM »
So...you weren't intending on rerecording anything in the first place? I don't want broken and chopped up narrations. That's no different than skipping the current ones manually (which I don't want to do). Honestly, who cares if it takes longer? It's been 8 years! Do this right. Get everything proper before it's considered final and is labeled for what it is. We can wait a little longer.

EDIT: Ok, how about this as a further compromise? If you won't rerecord the dialogue lines then why don't you have this option instead of chopping it up: either have an option to play it as it is now. The narrator will speak the current mile-long walls of text and half the people will be happy or at least content. The other option is to alter the dialogue to have multiple interactions that further explain the story or history or deeper facts or whatever the more you click on it. But without the narrator dictating it. This option would disable narrator speech and we'd get the short and sweet text.

Though, I really think you should rerecord everything and use multiple interactions instead of making it an option. That would please both sides. At least consider multiple interactions for your future (non-TSL) games. I'm honestly surprised nobody thought to do that during the 8-year development.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 09:02:38 AM by MusicallyInspired »

Offline chucklas

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2010, 10:35:52 AM »
I agree.  If it has already taken 8 years.  You could go with what MI said and have the text option (as to not delay releasing the upcoming episodes) and then add in new narrations through a re-release of each episode down the line.
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Offline liggy002

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2010, 12:59:38 PM »
Why not take a poll on your website and find out how many people want the shorter narrations?  Encourage everyone to participate.  If you find that it is a significant amount of people who want the shorter narrations, then you could do it.  Otherwise, if you are intent on pleasing all of the fans, you could just tackle the issue without a poll.  You can't please everybody but if you feel its a serious issue and its worth the extra time needed to put in the game then by all means do it.

Offline Cez

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2010, 01:37:16 PM »
They are already broken in chunks. We are not re-recording audio unless absolutely necessary. Instead of 3 or 4 paragraphs of narrations, you'll get one. Narrations normally have a good breaking point.

So for example, when looking at the vase, instead of:

These vases are fine antiquities indeed. Cassima told Graham that they were a gift from her grandfather to her mother. She was very little when they were placed in the castle, but still remembers the smile on Allaria's face when her grandfather stepped into the Main Hall, while servants brought the vases into the castle.

This narration is already chopped in 3 ways, wherever there's a period (we broke down all long narrations into smaller chunk as we were developing it). I'm just simply going to create a copy of this script where I remove the bigger chunks of the narrations, and just give you a simple rundown of it.

the short narration would be:

These vases are fine antiquities indeed.

That's what we can do, and what we'll do, if our current schedule allows.

Thanks everyone for your input!
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 01:47:11 PM by Cez »


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Offline spinz

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2010, 02:15:13 PM »

Though, I really think you should rerecord everything and use multiple interactions instead of making it an option.

you think they should rework the entire script for a minor inconvenience for people that dont like clicking a couple extra times? I dont care for the long dialogue either, but i got over it fast. I cant comprehend it being worth any major rework. Because this wont be the last complaint a bunch of people have, the team cant just drop everything everytime people think an entire aspect of the game should get redone.

Offline Hituro

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2010, 02:22:20 PM »

I want to be very clear in one thing. The tone of this game is very different than the tone from previous King's Quest and that's a conscious decision that was made from day 1 and that will still stick. Going into Graham's mind, the more psychological aspect of the stories,  delving into the traumas left by Manannan on Alexander, those are all things that are in this game and that will not go away. I didn't try to write like Roberta Williams would because that's simply not my style, and trying to fully mimic it would have been a disaster. So, I took it, I understood it, and I wrote it in a way that I would feel happy about it. It was a very conscious decision I took, and I'm glad I did because I believe artists should always hold their own integrity over everything else, even when approaching somebody else's IP.

The reason I'm thinking about removing the narrations is for a gameplay reason, not because I want to now change the tone of the game. I'm not Roberta Williams, I do not write like Roberta Williams, and I would not dare to try and mimic Roberta Williams. Instead, I offer you my (and Katie's) writing, in a very self-conscious decision of telling a more mature plot, and having it fit the teenage fantasy model more than the fairytale storybook.  

I don't have anything against you Cez, and I love the story so far, but I don't see how having long winded narrations is an art choice.  If you didn't have them, the writing would still be different than Roberta Williams.  We're not asking for you to have it be the same as the King's Quest games, it's just that you need to understand, in story telling, you don't want to bore the audience with pointless excess.  For example, does the player really need a long narration about how Cassima used to play hide and seek just from looking at a pot?  The whole point of looking as something, is to get a description of what it is, not a story about how many people interacted with it over the past 20 years.

Offline dark-daventry

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2010, 02:28:49 PM »
That's exactly why he's contemplating putting in a choice though. Frankly, I like the long narrations. I like getting all the backstory. As was stated in the first post of this thread, the community seems divided on the issue, which is why a choice is being offered. And the fact is that everything has already been recorded, and we can't re-record everything. And it would be a shame to waste all those audio clips that were so painstakingly recorded.
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Offline rev79

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2010, 03:06:29 PM »
Quote
you think they should rework the entire script for a minor inconvenience for people that dont like clicking a couple extra times? I dont care for the long dialogue either, but i got over it fast. I cant comprehend it being worth any major rework. Because this wont be the last complaint a bunch of people have, the team cant just drop everything everytime people think an entire aspect of the game should get redone.

This.


Offline dark-daventry

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2010, 03:10:00 PM »
Quote
you think they should rework the entire script for a minor inconvenience for people that dont like clicking a couple extra times? I dont care for the long dialogue either, but i got over it fast. I cant comprehend it being worth any major rework. Because this wont be the last complaint a bunch of people have, the team cant just drop everything everytime people think an entire aspect of the game should get redone.

This.

Can you please be a little more descriptive than simply stating "this"? To be honest, I don't know if you're agreeing or disagreeing with the quoted statement...
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Offline MusicallyInspired

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2010, 03:32:31 PM »
you think they should rework the entire script for a minor inconvenience for people that dont like clicking a couple extra times? I dont care for the long dialogue either, but i got over it fast. I cant comprehend it being worth any major rework. Because this wont be the last complaint a bunch of people have, the team cant just drop everything everytime people think an entire aspect of the game should get redone.

This is not a minor inconvenience. It is a major issue that more than just a small minority are having problems with. It astonishes me to see people really talking down to those who are just speaking honestly as if it's some kind of sin. If that's all you're going to do about it then just forget it. Leave it the way it is for all I care. There's not much difference between it and your "solution."

There's seriously too much elitism and pretentious attitudes on this team and on these forums. So much so that I don't feel welcome to post. So I won't. Time will tell whether or not this was a good move, but I'm tired of arguing with all you blind followers about actually seeing my point rather than talking it down like I'm some silly little child. If this is how you treat constructive feedback you're going to reap the benefits eventually.

Enjoy your game.

Offline dark-daventry

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2010, 03:37:52 PM »
Cesar posted this merely as a suggestion, not as a confirmed feature. If you have any ideas, we're more than willing to hear them.
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Offline MusicallyInspired

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2010, 03:42:42 PM »
No, you aren't. Many here posted some great ideas and they were all shot down by Cesar basically saying "This is what we're going to do if we're going to do anything and that's that."

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2010, 03:46:48 PM »
What elitism are you referring to anyway?  Cesar came out with what is a perfectly reasonable and quite effective solution to the long narration you're complaining about, and you turn around and call the team pretentious?  What other game company on the planet would even have given you the time of day?  You may not like this point, but the people complaining about the long narrations are in the minority, so Cesar and company aren't under any real obligation to help you guys out anyway.  And yet they are trying.

Nobody here has been rude to you, quite the contrary.  People have listened, read what you have written, tried to understand your point of view, and have offered their own in exchange.  There's no need for you to take other people's expression of their opinions personally.  That's definitely your choice if you decide to feel poorly, but the TSL team is trying to help make the game experience better for you and you're not exactly making that easy for them.

The post by spinz may have come across a little harshly, but your suggestion that the team redo all of the recording work simply isn't reasonable.  What you should have done was ignored spinz's post if it bothered you so much and focused on what Cesar wrote and his specific example of how the narrations would be shortened.  His idea should work just fine.

(Posted on: July 17, 2010, 05:43:44 PM)


Many here posted some great ideas

Like re-recording everything?  Sure, that would be effective but you've got to think about how long that would actually take.  A good idea here has to be both effective and relatively quick and easy to implement.  Do you have an idea that can top those requirements better than just getting shortened pieces of narration as described by Cesar?  If you do have an idea that's better than that the team is always more than willing to listen.
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Offline KatieHal

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2010, 04:04:50 PM »
MI: I'm sorry you feel that way, but do remember, not every person on these forums speaks for or is on the team. We have no control over other people's opinions or how they express them, and they have every right to express them, just the same as you.

Re-recording narrations is a LOT of work. And yes, we've waited 8 years to get this far, and we're almost done--we don't want to add in another lengthy delay for re-recording when we don't have to. Remember, our actors aren't all just down the street or something like that--they're all over the country, the world even, and getting recordings to the point of being implemented is a lengthy process even aside from the time it takes to record them.

We're doing our best here to find a compromise that could work for both those who like the narrations as they are, and those who would prefer they be shorter, without having to push back the game further. If we delayed every time we thought something wasn't absolutely perfect, the game would never come out. There's ALWAYS something that could be touched up or further refined--we have to draw the line and be satisfied at some point. 8 years seem like a good enough point to finally do that. ;)

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Offline Cez

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2010, 05:27:49 PM »
you think they should rework the entire script for a minor inconvenience for people that dont like clicking a couple extra times? I dont care for the long dialogue either, but i got over it fast. I cant comprehend it being worth any major rework. Because this wont be the last complaint a bunch of people have, the team cant just drop everything everytime people think an entire aspect of the game should get redone.

This is not a minor inconvenience. It is a major issue that more than just a small minority are having problems with. It astonishes me to see people really talking down to those who are just speaking honestly as if it's some kind of sin. If that's all you're going to do about it then just forget it. Leave it the way it is for all I care. There's not much difference between it and your "solution."

There's seriously too much elitism and pretentious attitudes on this team and on these forums. So much so that I don't feel welcome to post. So I won't. Time will tell whether or not this was a good move, but I'm tired of arguing with all you blind followers about actually seeing my point rather than talking it down like I'm some silly little child. If this is how you treat constructive feedback you're going to reap the benefits eventually.

Enjoy your game.

Wait... I invited you to post your feedback, and we are approaching the problem. I could be ignoring it completely. You are the one acting unreasonably. It is either exactly your way or the highway? You can't come and impose a solution and then fly off calling the team pretentious and expect people to be fine with it.

Like I said, I listened. You are obviously not part of the team, so you don't know what it means to the team to re-record the narrations. You have absolutely no idea how the internal mechanics work, or what our narrator is up to these days, so please, do not say I'm just shutting ideas down just because I don't want to do exactly what 2 or 3 people are suggesting. (whatever the reasons behind them may be)

I already said it: we are listening, we appreciate your feedback, I requested it, I'm glad I did, I listened to all the solutions. You want shorter narrations, we'll provide that. But it's up to the team to decide what solution works best all elements considered, to which you probably only have 10% of the information. Let us decide and do not get mad at us for not choosing what you regard as the best solution, because when you add the rest of the information that you don't have access to, you'd probably agree as well it's not the best solution either. So, let us decide, we are already acting on the problem you brought to our table.

Thanks!
Cez

« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 05:34:28 PM by Cez »


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Offline Cez

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2010, 05:30:26 PM »
And with that said, I'm taking a step back from the community. I'll still keep an eye on it, post information, and maybe reply to a couple of topics, but I think I understand why normally creators do not directly get involved with the community.

So, I'll be down in my corner working to get a game into your hands!

Cez


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Offline B'rrr

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2010, 05:56:30 PM »
Aww, don't go into hiding again Cez, was good to see you on the forums again (especially after episode 1 came out when there were less suffers  ;)). Most welcome your presence here and really appreciate the effort you put in this project. don't let a few disgrunted people get you down  :-\

No, you aren't. Many here posted some great ideas and they were all shot down by Cesar basically saying "This is what we're going to do if we're going to do anything and that's that."

what are all those ideas that are shot down then? people want less sassy and shorter narrations? The team is looking into it. People want more puzzles and longer episode? we have 4 episodes to come with that. people do not like the navigation, there has been talk about possible keyboard controls and I saw they are recruiting a navigation programmer, so that might imply they are looking into the navigational glitch in the main hall aswell.

So far most feedback that the team got is looking into. maybe not as much or in the way you like it, but they are doing something with it  :-\

There's seriously too much elitism and pretentious attitudes on this team and on these forums. So much so that I don't feel welcome to post. So I won't. Time will tell whether or not this was a good move, but I'm tired of arguing with all you blind followers about actually seeing my point rather than talking it down like I'm some silly little child. If this is how you treat constructive feedback you're going to reap the benefits eventually.

Enjoy your game.

I am really sorry that you feel unwelcome, I really do, but you got to understand that individual wishes or ideas can't always be granted exactly the way you want (heck, I wanted an island named after me, not going to happen either!). I do see your point actually, and although it is not an issue for me I can understand why it bothers you.  But there is actually no need to argue about points at all or trying to convince other people, you can just state your feedback, much like in this post and let the team look into it.

And remember, in the end it is the game they make, yes it is for us to play but they decide how they make it.

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Offline spinz

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Re: Questions about (long) narrations!
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2010, 05:59:51 PM »

There's seriously too much elitism and pretentious attitudes on this team and on these forums. So much so that I don't feel welcome to post. So I won't. Time will tell whether or not this was a good move, but I'm tired of arguing with all you blind followers about actually seeing my point rather than talking it down like I'm some silly little child. If this is how you treat constructive feedback you're going to reap the benefits eventually.


oh sure im pretentious alright, feel free to direct that one towards me. But blind follower? Lately I've been a scathing critic towards this project (as well as a follower since the very beginning). And iv been voicing my great displeasure on a variety of sites in the most blatant and unforgiving of fashions. But i support their decisions on this particular issue and leave my criticism mostly out of this site because i think they should finish what they started as they've pictured it. I think we owe them that much. The fact they are willing to alter the script at all is incredibly nice. You just cant please everyone. And when i do criticize, i save it for the things that matter most: there isnt a game yet with puzzles, and its the same release as 4 years ago. You want something to be mad about? thats far more worthy. But for now, all we can hope is that they can proceed with confidence. I dont want them to feel like they need to second guess things like this when theres much bigger fish to fry.
 

anything