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Questions about (long) narrations!

Started by Cez, July 16, 2010, 03:35:25 AM

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Baggins

I think it ranges from Space Questy snarky style narration to some that are closer in line with King's Quest's more serious style. She is all over the place with her style.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

B'rrr

so that would make it her own style!  ;)

And once more, not all KQ games had exactly the same style, there was some difference in them aswell, though perhaps not as big as in TSL.

I do think it is better to have your own style in the game because sometimes the closer you try to get to an origional (and that doesn't only count for narrating) the more irritating the differences are. at least that is my view when watching for example book -> movie conversions
~Mary Jane supporter~
~Legend~

Baggins

#102
Her style is to have  three different schizo styles from serious to completely annoying. But as I've said before this isn't all Amy's fault its the dialogue given to her. The schizo nature exists in the writing.

You can turn amy off and come across the schizophrenic diaologue in the writing itself.

QuoteAnd once more, not all KQ games had exactly the same style, there was some difference in them aswell, though perhaps not as big as in TSL.
Sure you only have two really to compare, KQ5 narrator (scratchy throat) and the most excellent KQ6 narrator (the best KQ narrator ever). You could count the narrators of KQ1-4, and KQ1SCI (not the fan remakes), but that's all about your own imagination (most were pretty basic descriptions). I've had fun imagining the voices of the narrators from KQ5 and KQ6 in those games just to see how it would feel (you gotta have a good imagination to do this however).

There was no narrator for KQ7 & 8.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

chucklas

I think the whole point is not necessarily how the narrator sounds, but more with the long tangents taken.  For example, look at the tree just south of the castle in Episode 1, then do the same in KQ6.  I find the message in KQ6 much better.
I didn't know how much I really enjoyed the Sierra Adventure Games until I played them all over again 15 years later.

kindofdoon


Daniel Dichter, Production/PR
daniel.dichter@postudios.com

Goldenfoxx

Quote from: KatieHal on July 18, 2010, 08:54:26 PM
Goldenfoxx--that option does exist in the Audio Options menu already.

If it's there in TSL (I just didn't notice... probably because I had no desire to turn off the narrator at any point), I don't get what all the fuss about having to listen to it (other than the overall attitude of the comments) is all about, then...  You don't like it, turn it off. 

Cat1

Whoa - wait a minute people...!

I think that most of the people who have posted here aren't doing it to make a fuss or complain - I can't speak for everyone, but from what I've read I think that most of us who have posted genuinely want to give constructive feedback.  (I agree that maybe a few might have gone a bit overboard)...  I don't think we want to come off as discontented, and we're not demanding that the game be changed, but we feel that hopefully we are giving the POS team ideas of how they can improve this game or future games if they choose to.  I personally feel that the game is awesome, but could could benefit from some editing of the narration, but as I said in an earlier post, I can see that it would be really hard to get the narrator back to re-record different lines, so can understand if they don't feel that they want to/are able to at this stage.

After all they do have a "Fan Feedback" forum, so we assumed that's what they wanted - if they wanted fan adoration they would have called it the "Fan Adoration" forum?!

I think that to say we are discontented/complaining/making a fuss, is kind of getting the wrong idea - all we want to do is give critique that we hope will be helpful.  It's a shame that people who have a lot of experience and (in my opinion) good advice like the guys from IA have been discouraged from posting here.  I know that we all feel passionately about KQ, and might speak strongly about it sometimes, but, as trite as it sounds, can't we all be friends even if we don't agree? :)  After all, KQ is all about love really - don't you remember what Alexander told that gate in the Realm of the Dead   :D

Ok I'll stop now  ;)

Flubly

Even if you had said that you were not going to change anything about the game, I would have still posted my opinion.  I'm a writer and I feel strongly about the form so I like to put out ideas to generate discourse.  I don't mean to offend or cause tension but I'm not a "to each his own" kind of guy.  I'm tolerant and open minded but that doesn't mean I'm not analytical.

sahara

Quote from: Flubly on July 21, 2010, 07:29:58 PM
Even if you had said that you were not going to change anything about the game, I would have still posted my opinion.  I'm a writer and I feel strongly about the form so I like to put out ideas to generate discourse.  I don't mean to offend or cause tension but I'm not a "to each his own" kind of guy.  I'm tolerant and open minded but that doesn't mean I'm not analytical.

What do you think about the question of whether to even have a separate narrator?  Would you choose to make a game with one, or would you want the main character to comment on objects and scenes (from his/her perspective) when the player clicks on things?

Baggins

I don't think the problem is with the narrator per se, but the problem with the text given to the narrator... You can turn off the narrator, but the text still exists...
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Flubly

#110
Quote from: sahara on July 22, 2010, 05:52:43 AM
What do you think about the question of whether to even have a separate narrator?  Would you choose to make a game with one, or would you want the main character to comment on objects and scenes (from his/her perspective) when the player clicks on things?

I would not create a game with a separate narrator unless it served the story (like switching POV in books).  If I did a King's Quest game I would write the narration in a minimalist storybook manner (maximum imagery in as few words as possible).  I would either do it from 3rd person, limited to Graham's POV or 2nd person limited to Graham's POV.  My problem with TSL's writing is that it assumes the existence of general "good writing", and really has no exploration of a style at all.  It merely combines lots of adjectives with a tell don't show method of storytelling.  Usually when I see writing like it, it's covered in red pen.  That's not intended to be an insult, that's my honest opinion from analyzing the structure of the narrations and comparing it against my experience in workshops.  Red pen, not from a single teacher but also from 30 other students with extremely differing tastes and styles but all with an academic focus in writing, analysis, and literary criticism.


sahara

#111
Quote from: Flubly on July 24, 2010, 06:46:31 AM
I would not create a game with a separate narrator unless it served the story (like switching POV in books).  If I did a King's Quest game I would write the narration in a minimalist storybook manner (maximum imagery in as few words as possible).  I would either do it from 3rd person, limited to Graham's POV or 2nd person limited to Graham's POV.  My problem with TSL's writing is that it assumes the existence of general "good writing", and really has no exploration of a style at all.  It merely combines lots of adjectives with a tell don't show method of storytelling.  Usually when I see writing like it, it's covered in red pen.  That's not intended to be an insult, that's my honest opinion from analyzing the structure of the narrations and comparing it against my experience in workshops.  Red pen, not from a single teacher but also from 30 other students with extremely differing tastes and styles but all with an academic focus in writing, analysis, and literary criticism.

You should apply to be a writer fo Phoenix Online or AGDI or a similar team if you have the time... you seem to know a lot about writing.  I am very impressed!  I felt like, besides its short length, the biggest problem with TSL was the writing.  All the other elements were in place... stunning visuals, cinematography, superb music, etc.  I don't know why adventure game development teams don't seem to make writing a priority.

Flubly

#112
Quote from: sahara on July 24, 2010, 08:15:07 AM

You should apply to be a writer fo Phoenix Online or AGDI or a similar team if you have the time... you seem to know a lot about writing.  I am very impressed!

I wouldn't be so quick to impressed!  Maybe my rhetorical skills are a testament to my writing but no one here has actually read anything by me.  For all you know I could write fiction like a textbook.  

I've always wanted to try my hand at being on a writing team for a game.  It's a lot more puzzle like and a whole different beast than other forms.  I do want to give Phoenix Online their due for the complicated nature of the writing.  It isn't easy work and it's something I've never done.

I don't really have the time to take on project responsibilities though.  Right now I'm adapting Philip K d***'s short story "Imposter" into a Binaural audio play for my English degree.  

DarkTerror

I didn't mind too much of the long narrations. As long as they were interesting, for example the statue of the dog that explains why the Guard Dogs came to be working for the Castle of the Crown. I forget, maybe it's written down somewhere and it's partly the "official" story. But little narrations like that fully explain little thing, I appreciate little details.

kindofdoon

It seems to me that the rambly descriptions are only a result of excessive love on the part of PO. I felt like they wanted to give every object a nice story or poetic insight, even when one was not needed.

Daniel Dichter, Production/PR
daniel.dichter@postudios.com

Baggins

QuoteI didn't mind too much of the long narrations. As long as they were interesting, for example the statue of the dog that explains why the Guard Dogs came to be working for the Castle of the Crown. I forget, maybe it's written down somewhere and it's partly the "official" story. But little narrations like that fully explain little thing, I appreciate little details.
Most of its orignal. You ca look at that statue in KQ6, and there is only a very brief description of it being "made of marble" or some such.

There was a tiny bit in the Guidebook that came with KQ6;

QuoteThe palace is made even more exotic by the race of guard dogs that serve and protect the palace. These wondrous creatures seem to combine the best qualities of canine and human. Speaking in gruff voices and armed with swords or pikes, the guard dogs are strong and intelligent, and have loyally served the crown through the centuries.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

RockNFknRoll

In all honesty, I don't think the choice is a necessary idea. I don't like the long descriptions, but mainly just because they are just poorly written imo and overly verbose and try-hard. It should just be a hard and fast rule of video game writing that descriptions and information should be as quick and relevant as possible. That doesn't mean there has to be a character maximum, it just means that words should be chosen very judiciously. You don't need a thousand adjectives if the artwork is good enough to fill your head with them anyway. If you go back to all the classic games like the old King's Quests and Monkey Islands, you see that the reading you have to do is always snappy and to the point. 90% of the atmosphere, humor and vibe you got was in your head, elaborated from just a nice concise line or two or text. When you just want to look at an object you don't want to have to click through multiple windows of complex, rambling story. It lags the game heavily and instantly creates boredom, which is a big no no. What's even worse is when you forget that you already clicked on that object and you then have to listen to the full story AGAIN. That's not to say that sometimes a bit of side info isn't nice from time to time, it should just be snappy.

Anyway, tl;dr forget multiple narrative options. I feel like that's just an excuse for weak writing in the first place, and it will no doubt bog down development time. Just compromise, make most descriptions short and bite-sized and some of them more elaborate if needed. And always from the same narrative style.

wilco64256

Your suggested compromise would actually take more development time and work than adding the option for shorter narrations.

And yes the older King's Quest games typically had short and to-the-point narrations, but plenty of other adventure games that also qualify as "classic" had longer and often goofy narrations.  The longer narrations would still retain that same type of quality, but shorter narrations would be much more brief and standard.
Weldon Hathaway

RockNFknRoll

Quote from: wilco64256 on August 07, 2010, 08:03:46 PM
Your suggested compromise would actually take more development time and work than adding the option for shorter narrations.

And yes the older King's Quest games typically had short and to-the-point narrations, but plenty of other adventure games that also qualify as "classic" had longer and often goofy narrations.  The longer narrations would still retain that same type of quality, but shorter narrations would be much more brief and standard.
Can u point to a classic that you think these narrations compare to?

I would certainly agree that many adventure games have far too much blabbing and I can't think of a game where it was a good thing.

And I wasn't assuming that all narrations for future episodes were written out and recorded already. I meant my post as in going forward with the writing, not necessarily rewriting anything.


If there were two options, I would like to choose the short narrative option. but then I'd inevitably say to myself, "but geez I don't want to MISS anything." I'd be curious about what more there was to the game. I just don't think that's a very good solution. I'd prefer the game to just be the game. I think the option between lengthy writing and concise writing is kind of a false choice, if the real issue is good vs bad writing.

wilco64256

And I wasn't assuming that all narrations for future episodes were written out and recorded already. I meant my post as in going forward with the writing, not necessarily rewriting anything.

That's our main point - all of the lines have already been written and recorded, so there's not any new writing being done as we move forward.

I think the option between lengthy writing and concise writing is kind of a false choice, if the real issue is good vs bad writing.

See now you're talking about the difference between things that are factual - being able to switch between short and long versions of narrations - and something that's just an opinion - how good the writing is.  Plenty of people really like the writing and narration style of the game just fine.


Weldon Hathaway