Author Topic: Buying Sierra.  (Read 22993 times)

Offline Baggins

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2010, 04:02:14 PM »
I've actually owned/own all versions of the collection (well except for the second one with the KQ7 demo). I'm pretty sure that 15th anniversery, the one you show there (I got it when it first came out), actually had a pack in card with the page numbers, and an apology that they didn't print it in the manual.

Looks like you somehow didn't get the card, :p...
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 04:06:58 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2010, 04:12:15 PM »
Hmm...I certainly believe you--I wonder if I somehow lost mine without realizing it when I first opened the box (I was only a kid, so it's quite possible.)   :)  Oh well, thanks for clearing that up though!  Gotta love random old trivia like that.  :)

Offline Baggins

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2010, 04:15:39 PM »
Ya, I seriously love all the random trivia stuff. Alternate storyline stuff, stuff from the cutting room floor, etc.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2010, 06:51:47 PM »
I don't think I ever found the magic map . . .
You never
Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2010, 07:13:23 PM »
I don't think I ever found the magic map . . .
You never
Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Ya that would definitely make that game a lot harder.  Walking up and down the mountain every single time?  Yikes.
Weldon Hathaway

Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2010, 08:23:58 PM »
But...even with the map, you do walk up and down the mountain every time. It's only in the remake where you don't have to.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2010, 08:43:10 PM »
For some reason I didn't think you had to traverse that path down and back up every single time in the original either, guess it's been too long since I've played that one.
Weldon Hathaway

Offline tessspoon

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2010, 09:00:01 PM »
From what I remember, you could go down using the map, just not up.

At least that's the way it is in the companion; in the story he accidentally uses it to transport himself to the foot of the mountain with only a few minutes to go until Manannan returns, so he tries to make it transport him back up but it doesn't work, and he has to make a mad dash back up.

I'm so glad they changed that in the remake though, only time you have to deal with the path in that one is the very first trip down.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 09:04:25 PM by tessspoon »

Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2010, 09:18:03 PM »
From what I remember, you could go down using the map, just not up.
Yup, that's how it is.
I'm so glad they changed that in the remake though, only time you have to deal with the path in that one is the very first trip down.
Eh. I wasn't too happy about it. The only thing that really makes it hard is that you have to use the keyboard, and the remake eliminates that problem. Changing the function of the map forces the game to lose a little of its authenticity, imo.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline tessspoon

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2010, 09:30:16 PM »
I can see that about the authenticity, although it doesn't really bother me as I rarely play any of the originals.

I find those path sequences - in any of the games - a bit annoying and not having to some of them is fine by me.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 09:32:12 PM by tessspoon »

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2010, 06:24:05 PM »

Eh. I wasn't too happy about it. The only thing that really makes it hard is that you have to use the keyboard, and the remake eliminates that problem. Changing the function of the map forces the game to lose a little of its authenticity, imo.

Why remake the game at all?  Changing the graphics to VGA and the interface to point-&-click ruins the "authenticity."  Please.  There is a reason the remakes made changes--it's because they're just that: REMAKES.  Revising bits of the game that are dated and don't hold up anymore (like a keyboard controlled pathfinding "puzzle") is the whole point. 

Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2010, 10:37:22 PM »
I think we're confusing something here. I'm not upset that they eliminated only using the keyboard on the mountain path. What I don't understand is why they changed the map so it takes you to the top of the mountain. My point is that the mountain pathway isn't really all that hard with the mouse (though you still have to be careful where you click), so they could have left it in and let the map retain its original function, thus staying as true to the original as possible.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2010, 11:28:42 PM »
But that's just it--the puzzle ceases to exist once the interface becomes point-and-click, because the original puzzle is just a basic keyboard dexterity puzzle (early graphic adventure games were rife with them, especially the Sierra games, as we all know.)  Now, that type of puzzle really can't exist in the same way in point-and-click.  It just doesn't work.  Sure you can click off the edge of the cliff and Alex will step off to his doom, but that's not really something you're going to do by accident--you have to purposefully move the mouse off the path and click.  I don't remember if IA put automatic pathfinding into that area or not--I wasn't part of the team when KQ3 was being developed, and it's frankly been ages since I've played the remake.  But I do know that we have a basic philosophy when it comes to translating obsolete keyboard-based dexterity puzzles into point-and-click in our games (there are a handful in SQ2 that we had to tangle with also)--and that's basically to scrap them completely and come up with something else in their place.  ;)  In the case of KQ3, once that screen loses its purpose (i.e. you walk down the mountain the first time) having to go back through that screen when you want to get back to the house is just a needless delay.

Now personally, had I been on the team back when we were doing KQ3, there are actually a number of other things in the game that I would have pushed to do differently--namely, I would have made it so the player has to physically combine items to create the spells, just like the KQ6 system, rather than having the spells be able to be automatically created once you had gathered the items--it would have allowed for more death opportunities if you combined the wrong items, and in my opinion would have been a little truer to the spirit of the original, while still removing the silly element of copy protection (typing the exact commands word for word from the manual.)  I also would have put in a command to bypass the waiting (because of the point-and-click interface, the clock pauses every time you access the command bar or inventory screen, so you can actually complete the needed tasks when Manannan is away much MUCH faster than you could in the original game--so if you want to see the extra easter egg scenes and stuff you have to do a LOT of waiting.)  ;)  

But anyway, as far as the mountain path thing and the map taking you straight to the top goes, it was done for expediency's sake, since the path screen loses its purpose after the first time you go through it.  I think it was a reasonable decision.  :)

I think a lot of people confuse the term "remake" for "graphics and sound upgrade," and expect only ONLY those two areas to change when a group undertakes one of these projects.  Personally, I think that sells the whole process short.  The point is to really improve the playability of these games in numerous different ways--yes, that means a graphics and sound upgrade, but also it means removing obsolete puzzles and functions, particularly those that don't work in point and click, and even in some cases expanding story elements to make for a fuller and richer experience with the same tone and atmosphere as the original.  1:1 remakes shouldn't even be called remakes, in my opinion.  It's just a facelift.  
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 11:41:27 PM by Lambonius »

Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2010, 12:32:07 AM »
Now, that type of puzzle really can't exist in the same way in point-and-click.  It just doesn't work.  Sure you can click off the edge of the cliff and Alex will step off to his doom, but that's not really something you're going to do by accident--you have to purposefully move the mouse off the path and click.
It's easy to do if you're not being careful. I know. I did it several times. It's still a pathfinding puzzle, just not as hard (though, really, the keyboard version is pretty easy itself once you've played the game a few times).
I don't remember if IA put automatic pathfinding into that area or not--I wasn't part of the team when KQ3 was being developed, and it's frankly been ages since I've played the remake.
Not in the sense that you can't click off the edge and fall, because you can. Sierra did the same thing with the beanstalk puzzle and mountain pathway puzzle in the SCI remake. You can click off the edge and fall.
But I do know that we have a basic philosophy when it comes to translating obsolete keyboard-based dexterity puzzles into point-and-click in our games (there are a handful in SQ2 that we had to tangle with also)--and that's basically to scrap them completely and come up with something else in their place.  ;)  In the case of KQ3, once that screen loses its purpose (i.e. you walk down the mountain the first time) having to go back through that screen when you want to get back to the house is just a needless delay.
Then it's simply a matter of opinion (as it was to begin with) as to whether they are truly obsolete or not. I don't think they are, you (and apparently the rest of the IA designers) do. I guess I'll not be seeing the weed monster maze in SQ2 either, unfortunately (it's been a while, but I seem to recall that being a little less forgiving than the mountain, though).
Now personally, had I been on the team back when we were doing KQ3, there are actually a number of other things in the game that I would have pushed to do differently--namely, I would have made it so the player has to physically combine items to create the spells, just like the KQ6 system, rather than having the spells be able to be automatically created once you had gathered the items . . .
Well, at least we can agree on something. ;)
I also would have put in a command to bypass the waiting (because of the point-and-click interface, the clock pauses every time you access the command bar or inventory screen, so you can actually complete the needed tasks when Manannan is away much MUCH faster than you could in the original game--so if you want to see the extra easter egg scenes and stuff you have to do a LOT of waiting.)  ;)
Yeah, that would have been nice. I got everything I needed for the cookie (and everything else I could get) in about 5 minutes after Manannan left. :P Granted, I knew where everything was, but still.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline Baggins

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2010, 07:56:07 AM »
Quote
For some reason I didn't think you had to traverse that path down and back up every single time in the original either, guess it's been too long since I've played that one.
The square on the map takes you to the foot of the mountain, from anywhere in Llewdor. It does not take you to the top of the mountain.

Quote
hen it's simply a matter of opinion (as it was to begin with) as to whether they are truly obsolete or not. I don't think they are, you (and apparently the rest of the IA designers) do. I guess I'll not be seeing the weed monster maze in SQ2 either, unfortunately (it's been a while, but I seem to recall that being a little less forgiving than the mountain, though).

Its interesting bit of trivia that these areas were considered to be "Arcade" sequence by the Sierra designers, and were intentionally supposed to be difficult.

It's 5x more difficult, it's up there with the thorn maze in KQ2.

Quote
I can see that about the authenticity, although it doesn't really bother me as I rarely play any of the originals.

This is somewhat amusing, since there is very little continuity between these remakes and the rest of the series. They each seem to exist within there own alternate universes. For example in KQ3 remake, places a few months between KQ3 and start of KQ4, but we are told in both KQ3 original and beginning of KQ4, that they start moments from each other. I.E. KQ4 states that Alexander has just returned to the castle moments before, and Graham has his heart attack due strain of almost losing his daughter and the joy of his family's return.

It's version of a gnome pretty much destroyed all nods back KQ1 gnome's appearance (I.E. crotchety bent old, bearded and wizened gnome who walked with a cane). 

IA's "new and improved" gnome seems to be completely distanced from the original gnome, and turned into a completely different character. Zero indication that it was the gnome from KQ1.

The continuity in the originals wasn't perfect, but at least they tried to have logical progression of events (and had nods back to what occured in previous games).

Essentially anyone trying to play the series in order only going by the fan games are going to be a bit confused by certain details :p.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 08:17:15 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline tessspoon

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2010, 10:04:42 AM »
Which is why I did play the originals first, to get the original story. But replaying I much prefer the better graphics and point and click. The differences don't bother me so long as I know they are there.

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2010, 10:50:54 AM »
I may get my butt kicked for saying this, but the root monster puzzle IS in our SQ2 remake, we've just devised an alternate solution of sorts.   ;)  The main issue that makes the puzzle nearly unsolvable the old fashioned way is the size difference between a VGA Roger sprite (a la SQ4) and the old AGI one.

Our SQ2 is a remake much more in the vein of Sierra's SQ1, in that several areas of the game are reimagined quite a bit from the original.  We make no bones about it, though--we're not going totally 1:1 with it, but we don't really alter the story either.  We think that people will mostly enjoy the changes and additions we've made, which are definitely far more than cosmetic in several areas.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 11:29:05 AM by Lambonius »

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2010, 10:53:18 AM »
If it involves being able to hack apart that damned annoying root monster, I'll be thrilled!  (alternatively, being able to get Roger to step OVER the vines like any normal person would, also a great improvement!)

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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2010, 10:56:47 AM »
If it involves being able to hack apart that darned annoying root monster, I'll be thrilled!  (alternatively, being able to get Roger to step OVER the vines like any normal person would, also a great improvement!)

Lol...I won't reveal any specifics, but I will say that it's a solution that is 100% in the spirit of the series.  ;)

Offline snabbott

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2010, 12:06:43 PM »
If it involves being able to hack apart that darned annoying root monster, I'll be thrilled!  (alternatively, being able to get Roger to step OVER the vines like any normal person would, also a great improvement!)

Lol...I won't reveal any specifics, but I will say that it's a solution that is 100% in the spirit of the series.  ;)
I know! They'll have arrow keys that you have to click on to move! :P

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