Author Topic: Buying Sierra.  (Read 22988 times)

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2010, 12:12:44 PM »
If it involves being able to hack apart that darned annoying root monster, I'll be thrilled!  (alternatively, being able to get Roger to step OVER the vines like any normal person would, also a great improvement!)

Lol...I won't reveal any specifics, but I will say that it's a solution that is 100% in the spirit of the series.  ;)
I know! They'll have arrow keys that you have to click on to move! :P

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Offline Lambonius

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2010, 12:14:50 PM »
If it involves being able to hack apart that darned annoying root monster, I'll be thrilled!  (alternatively, being able to get Roger to step OVER the vines like any normal person would, also a great improvement!)

Lol...I won't reveal any specifics, but I will say that it's a solution that is 100% in the spirit of the series.  ;)
I know! They'll have arrow keys that you have to click on to move! :P

Lol...no, no.  In due time, people... ;)

Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2010, 06:07:35 PM »
It's 5x more difficult, it's up there with the thorn maze in KQ2.
What, the mountain climb? That's way easier than trying to navigate the thorn maze (which is why you're not really supposed to navigate it at all)
I may get my butt kicked for saying this, but the root monster puzzle IS in our SQ2 remake, we've just devised an alternate solution of sorts.   ;)
Oh, nice. :)
The main issue that makes the puzzle nearly unsolvable the old fashioned way is the size difference between a VGA Roger sprite (a la SQ4) and the old AGI one.
Well, yeah, there is that...but the only instance I can think of where that might have been a problem is at the part in the maze where Roger has to duck under one of the roots. I would think you could circumvent that by just making him crawl under on his hands and knees when he got to that part. Of course, maybe there's something else that I'm missing. But I understand that you're not allowed to talk about it; I'm just speculating.
Our SQ2 is a remake much more in the vein of Sierra's SQ1, in that several areas of the game are reimagined quite a bit from the original.
I never played the original SQ1, so I can't comment on that. I do know from the plug in KQ2 that one of the ships (I'm guessing it's the Arcadia) looks radically different, but the bar and the desert, as well as the outside of the bar (which I saw in Time Rippers) seemed to be about the same.
We think that people will mostly enjoy the changes and additions we've made, which are definitely far more than cosmetic in several areas.
Hmm. Well, we'll see.
(alternatively, being able to get Roger to step OVER the vines like any normal person would, also a great improvement!)
I know, right? I always wondered why they didn't realize when making that puzzle that anyone else would just jump over them and be done with it. At least the mountains and stairs made more sense.
Then again, Space Quest is a giant parody.
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2010, 06:46:14 PM »
I'm pretty sure Baggins meant that the root puzzle was harder than the mountain, which I'd agree with.

I think I'm misspeaking a bit about the nature of our version of SQ2--while it does include a number of alternate puzzle solutions that weren't present in the original (so did the Sierra remake of SQ1--being able to get the widget and cheat the slot machine--which you couldn't do in the original; it was just up to chance--comes immediately to mind), it's not anything close to a reimagining in the sense of AGDI's KQ2+, where the story is basically rewritten from the ground up.  With the exception of a few new rooms added to various sections of the game, and some alternate puzzle solutions (and a LOT more dialogue because of the addition of the Taste and Smell icons, among other things) the game and puzzles unfold in exactly the same way.  Graphically, several scenes have been reimagined a bit, but they still play out the same way.  Anyway--it'll be good; we're excited about it.  If we can ever get the darn voice acting finished.  ;)

Offline Baggins

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2010, 02:12:24 AM »
Yes, the root puzzle is much harder than the mountain. The thorn maze is harder than the mountain puzzle. The bean stalk is much harder than the mountain. I'd even say the whale tongue is more difficult puzzle.

I wouldn't even really consider the mountain all that difficult, nor really a puzzle, its pretty simple to navigate, not really a maze. It takes less than a minute to reach the top. There is pretty much plenty of space to navigate within. Its actually not much different than those mountain paths into Daventry in the later half of the game.

BTW if you didn't know if you play KQ3 on Tandy or Apple II, there is mouse support in the game. Which makes it incredibly easy. Actually you can access that mouse support if you run KQ3 with Scumm VM, which activates the Tandy version of the game.

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which is why you're not really supposed to navigate it at all)
It's actually considered an alternate puzzle solution, which the player is forced to do if they killed the snake.

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never played the original SQ1, so I can't comment on that. I do know from the plug in KQ2 that one of the ships (I'm guessing it's the Arcadia) looks radically different, but the bar and the desert, as well as the outside of the bar (which I saw in Time Rippers) seemed to be about the same.
There are quite a handful of changes, in text and some story details.

Tiny's race is modified. Tiny was originaly part of  the joke, as he was actually a pretty large alien. In the remake he's actually tiny. The race of alien is described differently in both.

The Keronians were extensively modified. The Grell were extensively modified.

The descriptions for the world of Kerona are completely different. Different sky colors and what not. The giant skeleton are cliffs in the original. The way you solve the tentacle beast puzzle is quite a bit different.

While there is a plant in the original, its actually not sticky. Its a useless item IIRC.

I seem to recall the orat puzzle was a bit different. Various droids encountered in Ulence Flats were different.

The names of a couple of locations in Ulence Flats were different (the bar and Tiny's store had different names).

In the original the sector where the Sarien Battle Cruiser is located is always the same in every game, Sector HH. Its randomized in the remake.

The game is not a 1:1 remake. However it does contain the same amount of rooms, and overall map (although puzzles and characters and locations have changes).

However its not as extensivly changed as the changes in KQ3 to KQ3 VGA, and no where as changed as KQ2 to KQ2VGA.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 03:26:26 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #65 on: August 10, 2010, 04:59:51 AM »
There's actually a ton more changes than you even mentioned, especially on the Sariens' ship at the end, but I don't feel like listing a point by point.  ;)

I'm actually a little surprised that you think that the KQ3 remake is MORE changed than Sierra's SQ1 remake--visually, that game is entirely redesigned from the ground up, not just VGA-ified but from an art direction standpoint, where most of KQ3's visuals were very close redraws (if not straight paint-overs) of the original AGI artwork.  I would say that a complete visual redesign and art direction change trumps a few added story scenes any day of the week.  

Plus, it's not just art--there's tons of added dialogue, items, and some alternate puzzle solutions/redesigns, etc. that go with the new visual design--and really, there are quite a few additional little scenes, like the Kerona caves Instant replays, the arrival of the timepod from SQ4, a more fleshed out ending, and numerous easter eggs, just to name a few.  

It seems to me like you're taking the fact that one of KQ3's additional scenes implies a slight canonical timeline change (the oft-mentioned ending scene with Graham and Alexander, implying a short passage of time before the beginning of KQ4) and giving it way too much weight.  Seeing as you're the resident KQ timeline expert, I suppose that makes sense.  ;)  

If you were to compare the games side by side though, I think you'd find that KQ3VGA is a lot closer to the original in almost every respect than SQ1VGA, even with the additional scenes and handful of puzzle changes, since SQ1VGA had nearly just as many of both, plus the aforementioned ground-up visual redesign.   :)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 05:11:51 AM by Lambonius »

Offline Baggins

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #66 on: August 10, 2010, 05:18:35 AM »
I know there is a huge number of changes in SQ1, but I thought I'd toss in some examples, ;). It would be a bit difficult to liste all the changes from memory.

It really can't be called a 1:1 remake, and I never called it a 1:1 remake. Infact I think I said specifically that SQ1 remake is not a 1:1 remake.

I wouldn't call the KQ1 remake a 1:1 remake either. There were quite a few puzzle changes, redesign of Daventry's appearance, changes to the story, etc.

About the only Sierra remakes that remained 1:1 essentially, were the Mixed-Up Mother Goose, and possibly Leisure Suit Larry 1 (although it wasn't quite 1:1 either, it added a few extra things, and changed some of the dialogue) I don't know if there were any changes to the puzzles in LSL1 remake though.

I'm seriously a bit confused where this 1:1 remake terminology comes from even, because Sierra never claimed that their remakes were 1:1.
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where most of KQ3's visuals were very close redraws (if not straight paint-overs) of the original AGI artwork.


Some of it ya. But the top of the mountain is different, two screens instead of 1. Southern and Northern edges of Llewdor are different (the original didn't have "edges"). They also changed a few locations of the items (and the names of the items). It also contains quite a bit of added diaologue over the original version, and descriptions in the screens.

Did you know that on the map in the original for example both the city and Three Bear's house are located south of the mountain. Yet you can see both the city and the bear's house to the north of the mountain. The game really plays with that continuas warping, and it literally does exist in the world. From the bear's house you are told that the mountain can be seen to the north.



Once you get to Daventry, its filled with quite a few changes. Its more based on KQ5 type areas mixed with KQ1 remake areas, than the original KQ3. Plus its own changes to the map. For example you don't head directly north to get to the castle, you make a few turns from gnome's house before you reach the castle.



Plus completly changing the function of the map, changing the intro, changing the ending (it no longer fits with KQ4). Changing the cutscene in the crystal ball. Changing the spell system, etc. Actually I have a more complete list of the changes between KQ3 remake and the original on the omnipedia (including differences between the two versions of the KQ3 remakes).

In comparison, as far as "counting the screens" both versions of SQ1 have about the same total, although the screens were completely different appearance in both versions. Although certain things got shifted around (for example that deadly hole in the cliffs/skeleton are on completely different screens in both versions). Overall, while extended, the intro and endings are more or less similar to the original. Roger gets his mop in both. Most of the puzzles remained about the same, although an extra puzzle solution or two were added (one puzzle slightly modified).
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 05:43:36 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2010, 06:05:34 AM »
I guess it's all in how you look at it then.  ;)  I personally feel like the changes and story additions in the KQ3 remake help it fit MORE into the KQ canon, not less, since IA adds details and other bits that helped tie some of the other games together and fill in some series plot holes--length of time before the KQ4 intro aside (though we do still end on that note, naturally.)  Some argue that seeing the infant Alexander delivered to Manannan in the intro changes the tone of the game, since you know who Gwydion is from the beginning--but honestly, that was the worst kept secret in KQ history--it was never really this huge plot twist a lot of people made it out to be.  

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that changes like breaking the mountain top into two screens and removing continuous warping are really unavoidable and downright necessary when going into VGA because firstly, you have larger sprites, and so the backgrounds need to be tweaked to match in scale, and secondly, as you increase visual fidelity, you generally need to increase realism as well.  Even in the original, the exterior of Manannan's house, for example, is much MUCH smaller than the interior, and in VGA with a larger ego sprite, it's even more noticeably so.  It's not like we really added anything to the mountain top--everything's still in the same location between the too screens and has the same visual design.  So I hardly think it qualifies as the major design change you make it out to be.  ;)  Continuous warping--eh, that was certainly a design choice--it would not have been difficult to leave in--but I think the reasoning behind the change was pretty much the same--increase the realism of the world as you increase the realism of the graphics.  

Overall, regardless of how you feel about them, I think most of the changes in the KQ3 remake are definitely in the spirit of the Sierra remakes, which as you said, were never 1:1, and usually went to lengths to redesign and enhance much more than just recoloring the graphics and rerecording the sound.  I personally much prefer non 1:1 remakes--if I wanted to play something that was exactly like the original game, I'd just play the original game.  ;)

For me, redesigning the entire game's art direction from the ground up is about as big a change you can make, and as I said, in my opinion, really does change the whole tone of the game more than added scenes and other slightly altered functions.  I would actually argue that in SQ1VGA it is particularly jarring, because the art style of that game really stands out as being noticeably different from every other game in the series, including SQ4 and 5.  
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 06:14:52 AM by Lambonius »

Offline Baggins

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2010, 06:12:43 AM »
I don't really have a problem with the changes so much, I just have a hard time agreeing that they changes are 1:1.

If I was looking at say Final Fantasy 1 and its remake, that was more or less 1:1, all they did was upgrade the graphics quality but maintained the original game, every tile (the maps were made up of various graphic tiles) was in its orignal location.

1:1 is really a poor description for any of Sierra's remakes.

On a side note there are actually other issues with KQ3 remake vs. 'canon' (continuity is a better description, they didn't really have a strict "canon"). In the original, and several of the later games (see About screens in KQ5 or 6), and by Roberta herself, its said that Manannan kidnapped the baby himself. There was no middle-maid so to speak. There are actually several quotes in KQ3 itself in the original version where its stated that Manannan kidnapped Alexander from his cradle himself.

So it actually broke 'canon' in several points.
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but honestly, that was the worst kept secret in KQ history--it was never really this huge plot twist a lot of people made it out to be.  
Um, don't be a revisionist about this, actually it originally was.

Back in the day the box intentionally advertised him as a new character, and made no connection to previous game's stories. The manual itself intentionally avoided any reference to previous game.

According to Roberta she received alot of letters from disgruntled fans who thought that Gwydion had no connection to previous games. They hadn't made it to the oracle, or overheard any of the animals that explained Gwydion's identity. It wasn't until they got to the end they discovered the secret.

By now though we all know the secret, so that plot twist has lost its strength.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 06:22:01 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Lambonius

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2010, 06:27:41 AM »
I don't think I ever said that KQ3 was 1:1--I agree that it is definitely not, but I just feel like tonally it's closer to the original in most ways than Sierra's SQ1 remake.  For me, the look of the game is a major factor in defining its tone.  I love the stark visual design of the AGI SQ1, for example, and I feel like it puts me in the mood and shoes of the character better than its remade counterpart.  Even though the AGI version is still a comedy, it doesn't have nearly the silliness factor of the remake, and this is, in my opinion, largely due to the remake's over-the-top 1950s Flash Gordon-esque visual style.



(Posted on: August 10, 2010, 08:21:34 AM)


Um, don't be a revisionist about this, actually it originally was.

Back in the day the box intentionally advertised him as a new character, and made no connection to previous game's stories. The manual itself intentionally avoided any reference to previous game.

According to Roberta she received alot of letters from disgruntled fans who thought that Gwydion had no connection to previous games. They hadn't made it to the oracle, or overheard any of the animals that explained Gwydion's identity. It wasn't until they got to the end they discovered the secret.

By now though we all know the secret, so that plot twist has lost its strength.

Okay, perhaps I overstated that a bit.  :)  I do remember that statement by Roberta--wasn't it in an interview video that came with the Collection?  I guess what I meant was that the secret is hinted at, if not revealed, pretty early on in the game (the animal conversations, namely, like you said, and then the oracle.)  I can't help but think that most players would have it figured out well before the end of the game (or even the oracle conversation.)  As for advertising him as a new character--well, he was, wasn't he?  ;)

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2010, 07:22:17 AM »
I was so very proud of myself for figuring it out in an entirely different way when I was a kid. I had KQ3 and KQ4 at the same time, and hadn't gotten far enough in 3 to know the truth, but I eventually did notice that Alexander in the opening of KQ4 looked exactly like Gwydion in KQ3. Didn't put it all together, but I did at least realize it was the same person!

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Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2010, 07:11:52 PM »
Yeah, but that's cheating. ;)
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline KatieHal

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #72 on: August 10, 2010, 07:19:11 PM »
Really ineffective cheating. It was still years before I beat either of those games!

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Offline Enchantermon

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2010, 07:21:33 PM »
I'm just teasing you. :)
So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him and saaaaaaaaaay, "Hey! Bad guy! You're not s'posed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword 'til you go, 'Ouch! I'm dead!' Ah-ha-ha!" Ha-ha. *hic* See? Ain't no one gonna be messin' wit' ol', Benny!

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2010, 07:22:53 PM »
KQ4 was actually the last King's Quest game I beat, I just couldn't figure it out for the longest time.
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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2010, 07:34:47 PM »
Even when I did win, I totally missed things like freeing the unicorn, getting the hen back, and re-locking Pandora's Box into the crypt. I had no idea you could do those until I watched a Let's Play of the game a little while ago, actually!

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Offline wilco64256

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2010, 07:37:24 PM »
I wasn't aware that there was a better route and ending for KQ6 until like 2 years after I beat it the "bad" way.  I just thought it was weird that I had a bunch of extra items, a spell I never used, and didn't get even close to the max points.
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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2010, 08:10:57 PM »
I think I didn't know there was a "bad" way for a while. That could be because I "cheated" and bought the hint book, though.  :-[

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Offline Baggins

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #78 on: August 11, 2010, 12:13:15 AM »
You know it tells you just after you beat the game how much your score is, and "try the short path", or try the "long path" into the castle for more fun (depending on which ending you received). I can't remember if that's just after the ending cutscene before the credits, or after the credits though.

Plus the Oracle even talkes about the two paths into the castle during her prophecy.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline wilco64256

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Re: Buying Sierra.
« Reply #79 on: August 11, 2010, 09:02:45 AM »
Ya I just couldn't ever figure out the other path.
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