Author Topic: Remaking MoE  (Read 53840 times)

TheReturnofDMD

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Remaking MoE
« on: August 04, 2010, 01:01:02 PM »
Hi

I know there was a project a while back to remake MoE as a 2D point and click adventure, however, I was wondering if anyone was interested in instead remaking MoE the way it was meant to be in 1995-1997 (the early stages), with either the "Connor as fisherman marked from birth by the Mask", or as "Connor the marble statue made flesh", along with the original design of the lands featured in many early screenshots, and the larger, more adjusted plot points (like there being two Daventry towns, a much longer Swamp witch story, an underwater level, etc).

Will it bear such hallmarks as the Kingdom of Daventry?... Connor begins his adventure in the Kingdom of Daventry, but he doesn't stay there long. Seven new lands await!... The world of King's Quest: The Mask of Eternity reaches from the sunless Underworld of the living dead through the alchemical plains of Earth, Air, Water, and Fire, into the ether of the Celestial Realm--and even to a dark mysterious island temple...
 
--InterAction, Fall 1996


''Daventry would have been much larger zone, with villages, green forests, and farms. It would have taken place during the day (as opposed to the darkness seen in the current game). At one point during the production they added a darker cloudy sky, before finally settling on the pitch black Daventry in the game. The swamp would have been part of Daventry.
There was apparently going to be another zone near Daventry set by the sea, near a seaside tower, in a green hilly area. Another removed zone appears to have been set underwater, with seaweed, fish, and ancient ruins.
Dimension of Death would have been named the Underworld. The art style of the "Underworld" would have been much different, using a Mesopotamian style rather than the current Egyptian motif.
'
'

Here are some early screenshots and info, courtesy of Baggins at the KQ Omnipedia, and two making of video from this early stage:


Connor:



Daventry:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155205/kingsquest/images/d/de/Daventry4.JPG



Notice the old well of Daventry
Outskirts of alternate Daventry town with Hydra


Abandoned Underwater level




Early "Ice World":




Concept Art:

A cockatrice:


Red Cap Goblin (a cut boss):


Wood Elf:



Daventry world map:



----Notice Daventry is much brighter and more ''woodland''-ish, like the Daventry of the original games. The trees are alive, the sky is sunny with clouds, etc--Not like the dead, dark land of Daventy in the final version.

--Also, according to the info Baggins has collected, like in the original games, Castle Daventry would be in the center of a valley (think of the KQ5 intro) and all of the worlds would ''fan out'' from Daventry; There would be no load time between worlds. It would be a wide, open world--Like in Grand Theft Auto
Castle Daventry was to be explored in full, with Rosella being seen (turned to stone like everyone else). That was cut too due to budget and other reasons.
You were also to encounter a Lepreachaun inside the Old CastleKeep of Daventry

--The Swamp Witches' role was supposed to be much larger, and she would've had a human form with which to 'lure' Connor to her castle, to kill him--Like many a vile witch in fairy tales. A lot of it was cut due to budget and other reasons. This was her human form:

and a concept art of it:


A description of the Swamp witch: ''"In Daventry there is this Swamp, and there is this Swamp Witch in there, and she kinda looks like a part snake, part alligator, and part mermaid."
"She would have been able to change herself into a beautiful woman, to persuade Connor into thinking she was good, and lure her into her castle, before exposing herself, and showing her true form. Conner would have been forced to escape, and fight her for his life. This was removed from the final version of the game as well, and the witch stays outside of her castle. However references to the witch's wiles are still mentioned if you examine the skeletons in her castle. Most if not all info relating to this encounter exists in material relating to the 'Connor mac Lyrr' phase of the game."-Mark Seibert

-Much of the game would've been first person (for example when you're walking, it would be first person). 'Third Person' views would've only been for "story point areas" (possibly conversations, cut scenes, battles?). So the game would be primarily first person--You would see the world through Connor's eyes for most of the game. I think in the final version (as in the development article which Baggins created from info he collected, Roberta said the game went through three different versions) the 'compromise' where you can toggle at will between the first and third persons was created. However, from the interview with Roberta that Baggins found, it sounds like the game originally was supposed to mostly first person, with some third person parts.  Think Doom or Quake.

"One of the earliest phases of the game's story (mentioned around late 1995), Connor, then unnamed was to be a marble statue of a knight that was brought to life at the moment of the cataclysm that turned everyone living into stone. The game was primarily going to be in first-person, and switch to 3rd person for cutscenes, and certain puzzle areas."
''

Firebugs would've been in the Hot Lands, but were removed, and Connor would've had to fight them in a unique way since you can't fight fire with fire



Influence:

"With past King's Quest games I focused around the Royal Family," Roberta Explains. "But I've done just about as much as I could with the Royal Family. I knew I needed to bring in a new character, and I wanted the character to be less Disney-ish and more cerebral. The spiritual father of Mask is J.R.R. Tolkien not Walt Disney," she concluded firmly. Connor is very much a new character. He is an inhabitant of Daventry, a kingdom he doesn't rule but whose fate lies in his hands. A terrible curse has turned all of the people living in Daventry, including the Royal Family themselves, into stone. Connor must find the answers behind the curse, including why it's been imposed, who imposed it, and, possibly most importantly, why he alone has been spared the terrible fate of his comrades. Connor is a warrior and it's his combination of strength, cunning, intuition, and intellect that makes him best-suited to save the kingdom."
--Roberta

It would seem the King's Quest series has grown up a bit with the creation of Mask. Evidence of this continually surfaces throughout the game but is especially apparent with the central antagonist and Archarchon, Lucreto. His storyline parallels that of Lucifer, the fallen angel whose attempt to overtake Heaven ends him up in Hell.


The Engine:

It was originally designed using the 3space engine that was used in Dynamix flight simulators (the engine from Red Baron to be exact) from the period, just to get an idea of what the replication engine would need to be like.

The Remake would be in 3D but not modern 3D; It would use an antiquated style of 3D graphics to replicate almost exactly what's seen in those early screenshots shown above, with perhaps a "Doom" clone engine (there are plenty of free-be Doom WADs, designed from the engine). Basically the idea of this remake would be to create the version of MoE that could've and would've (if not for the sale to CUC) been released in 1996 or 1997.

I was wondering who would want to work on this with me? I think if done right it could be end up being a great  (free) remake version of MoE.

(All of the inside development info was discovered over time by Baggins and comes from http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/Mask_of_Eternity_Development ) My thanks to him for his hard work and research over the years.
 

« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 01:34:05 PM by TheReturnofDMD »

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2010, 04:07:43 PM »
Quote
The Remake would be in 3D but not modern 3D; It would use an antiquated style of 3D graphics to replicate almost exactly what's seen in those early screenshots shown above, with perhaps a "Doom" clone engine (there are plenty of free-be Doom WADs, designed from the engine). Basically the idea of this remake would be to create the version of MoE that could've and would've (if not for the sale to CUC) been released in 1996 or 1997.

Doom is too primitive actually. It doesn't allow for multi tiered levels with the ability to walk under an overhanging platform (of the sort seen in MOE).

Also Doom uses 2-d sprites. Even the earliest MOE characters models were in full 3-d.

I'd personally suggest the Dark-engine used by Thief 1 and 2. It would give you little more robust things to work with as far as scripting and storyline, and general copycat of the early graphical style..

Quote
----Notice Daventry is much brighter and more ''woodland''-ish, like the Daventry of the original games. The trees are alive, the sky is sunny with clouds, etc--Not like the dead, dark land of Daventy in the final version.

--Also, according to the info Baggins has collected, like in the original games, Castle Daventry would be in the center of a valley (think of the KQ5 intro) and all of the worlds would ''fan out'' from Daventry; There would be no load time between worlds. It would be a wide, open world--Like in Grand Theft Auto
Castle Daventry was to be explored in full, with Rosella being seen (turned to stone like everyone else). That was cut too due to budget and other reasons.
You were also to encounter a Lepreachaun inside the Old CastleKeep of Daventry
Be warned that that was probably actually from phase 1, the prototype/concept phase, before they started on an engine, even before they began desiging the levels (although there is no way of knowing when each of the parts in the Roberta Williams Anthology making video were filmed, and which order represents the actual design process in that video). Its certainly before the use of 3space though. As are most concept artwork.

Whatever, the case it was very early in the process. Once they started working with the prototype 3space engine they dropped that idea, and switched over to palletted individual levels. It was a limitation of the 3space engine. Linear individual levels was also something Roberta preferred.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 04:50:03 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2010, 04:28:47 PM »
Quote
The Remake would be in 3D but not modern 3D; It would use an antiquated style of 3D graphics to replicate almost exactly what's seen in those early screenshots shown above, with perhaps a "Doom" clone engine (there are plenty of free-be Doom WADs, designed from the engine). Basically the idea of this remake would be to create the version of MoE that could've and would've (if not for the sale to CUC) been released in 1996 or 1997.

Doom is too primitive actually. It doesn't allow for multi tiered levels with the ability to walk under an overhanging platform (of the sort seen in MOE).

Also Doom uses 2-d sprites. Even the earliest MOE characters models were in full 3-d.

I'd personally suggest the Dark-engine used by Thief 1 and 2. It would give you little more robust things to work with as far as scripting and storyline, and general copycat of the early graphical style..

What do you mean in term of 'multi-tiered levels'?
and is the Dark engine free use in the way that the Doom engine is?
Cause basically what I'm going for is an exact remake of what the early screenshots show--I want it to look like a mid 90s 3D game like the screenshots show, so it shouldn't be that much work for anyone versed in 3D.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 04:48:03 PM »
Multi-tier, think of a multi story building, with a first and second floor.

Think of the Witch's castle, remember how there was a causeway that goes over to a side tower? You can also walk under that causeway? Doom doesn't allow that. Basically its limited to single plain, you can go up and down staircases and elevators and what not. But there are no "two story buildings, you essentially remain on a single plain, and just go up and down within that plane, but things always remain "single floor". So no way to go to a second floor that is above a first floor, or go into a basement below a another floor.

Well you'd have to own Dark Engine game to use the dark engine. It comes with the level creator though. So anyone with a copy of the game would be able to use your levels.
Quote
Cause basically what I'm going for is an exact remake of what the early screenshots show--I want it to look like a mid 90s 3D game like the screenshots show, so it shouldn't be that much work for anyone versed in 3D.
Ya, but those screenshots are showing full 3-d world and 3-d character models like Quake era style engine.

As I said Doom is way too early, its all 2-d sprites (and lacked the ability to have multistory buildings).

Quake engine could get you the multi-story buildings, but I don't know where it stands as far as scripting ability.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 04:54:36 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2010, 05:07:22 PM »
Multi-tier, think of a multi story building, with a first and second floor.

Think of the Witch's castle, remember how there was a causeway that goes over to a side tower? You can also walk under that causeway? Doom doesn't allow that. Basically its limited to single plain, you can go up and down staircases and elevators and what not. But there are no "two story buildings, you essentially remain on a single plain, and just go up and down within that plane, but things always remain "single floor". So no way to go to a second floor that is above a first floor, or go into a basement below a another floor.

Well you'd have to own Dark Engine game to use the dark engine. It comes with the level creator though. So anyone with a copy of the game would be able to use your levels.
Quote
Cause basically what I'm going for is an exact remake of what the early screenshots show--I want it to look like a mid 90s 3D game like the screenshots show, so it shouldn't be that much work for anyone versed in 3D.
Ya, but those screenshots are showing full 3-d world and 3-d character models like Quake era style engine.

As I said Doom is way too early, its all 2-d sprites (and lacked the ability to have multistory buildings).

Quake engine could get you the multi-story buildings, but I don't know where it stands as far as scripting ability.

Well if you could delve more into it, that would be great; I'm very ignorant when it comes to 'tech' stuff. I'm more versed in the creative, organizational and general direction end of things--Not the software or programming end.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2010, 05:09:50 PM »
Well, I'm more of a game historian if anything. I'm not a programmer. So I wouldn't know the finer details. Most of my knowledge is based off just experience growing up with these games. The fact that I'm writing my dissertation on a related topic (no its not on KQ, LOL, but military FPS).

BTW, the reason I was suggesting Thief, was it does have a fairly robust scripting built in already. It allows for lots of cool things like scrolls, books, etc to read. Its got alot of adventure game aspects to it, for being stealth action game.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 05:16:22 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline scintilla

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2010, 05:19:03 PM »
:D Wow, you really found a lot of stuff on the early MOE, DMD!

I dont know if I'd really want to see another action-adventure KQ game based on this old stuff, but it would be neat to see a MOE remake in more of a classic adventure style with all those familiar locations. Maybe the remake could even be called "King's Quest VIII" (since MOE never officially was a numbered KQ game, lol!).

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 05:22:00 PM »
Also keep in mind if you limit yourself to one of these early engines, you'll probably hitting that same "palleted" level problem that 3Space had. That was reason they were limited to linear themed levels in the first place.

You might also not have access to some of the breakthroughs of the 3Space engine like colored lighting, advanced shadows, etc.

To be fair you could actually probably use any modern engine, and intentionally use lower quality models, if that is the look you are going for. You'd also have the tools and then some for scripting, level design, advanced physics, etc (the stuff that simply didn't exist when Roberta made the game, and was one of the main reasons they had to cut material in the first place).

I really don't think you want to go through the trouble they ultimately chose not to go through (I.E designing all your special features from scratch :p)... They were already pushing the Roberta's average development cycle by going three years on the project at the time, way higher budget than she normally put into the game (3 million)(according to Talk Spot interview).

Quote
since MOE never officially was a numbered KQ game,

Not entirely true, btw. It was numbered KQ VIII in quite a few official sources (I'd point to Roberta William's Anthology as a major example), Roberta even called it KQ VIII herself several times. It just didn't have the VIII on the box (other than several references to "Eighth game in the series" type quotes on the box).

The main reason for leaving it off the box? The rumor is so she wouldn't alienate potential buyers. Many of Sierra's games were dropping the numbers (Quest for Glory: Shadows of Darkness, Police Quest: Open Season, Police Quest: SWAT, for example).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 05:35:20 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2010, 05:35:15 PM »
:D Wow, you really found a lot of stuff on the early MOE, DMD!

I dont know if I'd really want to see another action-adventure KQ game based on this old stuff, but it would be neat to see a MOE remake in more of a classic adventure style with all those familiar locations. Maybe the remake could even be called "King's Quest VIII" (since MOE never officially was a numbered KQ game, lol!).

Yeah, but Roberta really never got to release "Her" KQ8. I'd like to make it as close as possible, and as a bonus, it would be a KQ8 that would actually work on computers past Windows XP.
It would be a great project. I personally don't see anything wrong with the action.

Baggins, so besides the Dark engine, what are some others you'd suggest? I just want to go for that retro 3D look--Nothing modern at all.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2010, 05:45:08 PM »
The problem is she didn't seem to have "her MOE" defined. They took so much time debating over little details like should a boss be Red Cap Goblin, or should it be "Leprechaun" they never even got that simple detail in... Instead tossing in the less interesting Spriggan Leader. Ya, those three were all the same characters (with different skin/ai/background).

As she states in the Talkspot Interviews there were some ideas they simply couldn't have done, the technology didn't exist yet. The swimming stuff for example was dropped quite early in the development, due to physics limitations (possibly early version of the "Connor mac Lyrr" phase, but the timing is unclear).

Best I've learned or been told, she actually chose to drop the whole Connor mac Lyrr (fisherman connor), preferring to simplify it to Connor of Daventry, Tanner, before the funding issue cropped up.

That change didn't actually have anything to do with the funding cuts, but simply intentional story revisions. There were some cuts in between early Connor of Daventry and late released Connor of Daventry stage though (or some graphic changes like gnome appearances), removal of rain cloud skybox in Daventry, more plants and trees, possibly an extended ending cutscene (with Connor meeting Graham). I'm not entirely sure when the extended Swamp Witch material was cut either. But seems it must have been pretty early, to the point that Roberta actually forgot about it.

Quote
"Well, it was in the design at one time"-Mark Seibert
"The swamp witch turned into a beautiful lady? I don't remember that in the design?-Roberta Williams
"Remember in the design, she was going to be like this siren, she was going to be this beautiful woman, that if you followed her up into the top of the tower, she would..."-Mark Seibert.
"Oh that's right."-Roberta Williams
"That was a long time ago"-Mark Seibert
"That was long...that was like two designs before the design that we...I tell you...I didn't remember that, that is amazing...little bit of trivia that is true."-Roberta Williams
"Actually I think if we could go back into the design, I think I would advocate doing more with her. I think she was much more fun character. I think I would have liked to have been able to see her inside her castle, and to do some things with her in there. Which we had originally planned, but it's one of those things. It's always painful to see the leftover design that gets left on the cutting room floor, and you just think about that. The Swamp Witch is real fun."-Talkspot Part 2, December 1998.

So i'd be careful trying to say your "defining her vision" but rather defining what you would have rather seen in the game (your vision based on prototype visions). Only way you'd know what her "vision" was is either talk to her, or just read or hear her quotes from interviews (from around the game's release) to gleen what she changed intentionally and what she was forced to change.

Quote
Baggins, so besides the Dark engine, what are some others you'd suggest? I just want to go for that retro 3D look--Nothing modern at all.
You can get the retro look with any engine, including modern engines. Graphics are all about the models you use in the game, not the engine itself. You want a blocky character models, you just make blocky character models.

As I mentioned, if you use the really early engines, you will probably hit a problem with either the fact that it doesn't have the physics capabilities, scripting capabilities, etc, that made MOE too ambitious in the first place. Whereas if you use a modern engine, that has those abilities built in already, all you would have to do is just make the game with retro graphics, and you'll also have all the tools at hand for the other features that would have been included in the earliest phase.

Quote
Notice the old well of Daventry
Well, to be fair there is no evidence that is the "old well". It could be, but it isn't necessarily.

The area doesn't even look to have a forest around it (not even a charred forest), so it could be "anywhere". last time we saw the ancient well, it was uh broken and filled with rocks.

Also while old well has been given two different physical appearances, although a wooden roof in KQ1 original/KQ3 (albeit its a very big well in KQ1 original), it was was made out of stone in the remake.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 06:35:07 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2010, 07:36:15 PM »
The problem is she didn't seem to have "her MOE" defined. They took so much time debating over little details like should a boss be Red Cap Goblin, or should it be "Leprechaun" they never even got that simple detail in... Instead tossing in the less interesting Spriggan Leader. Ya, those three were all the same characters (with different skin/ai/background).

As she states in the Talkspot Interviews there were some ideas they simply couldn't have done, the technology didn't exist yet. The swimming stuff for example was dropped quite early in the development, due to physics limitations (possibly early version of the "Connor mac Lyrr" phase, but the timing is unclear).

Best I've learned or been told, she actually chose to drop the whole Connor mac Lyrr (fisherman connor), preferring to simplify it to Connor of Daventry, Tanner, before the funding issue cropped up.

That change didn't actually have anything to do with the funding cuts, but simply intentional story revisions. There were some cuts in between early Connor of Daventry and late released Connor of Daventry stage though (or some graphic changes like gnome appearances), removal of rain cloud skybox in Daventry, more plants and trees, possibly an extended ending cutscene (with Connor meeting Graham). I'm not entirely sure when the extended Swamp Witch material was cut either. But seems it must have been pretty early, to the point that Roberta actually forgot about it.

Quote
"Well, it was in the design at one time"-Mark Seibert
"The swamp witch turned into a beautiful lady? I don't remember that in the design?-Roberta Williams
"Remember in the design, she was going to be like this siren, she was going to be this beautiful woman, that if you followed her up into the top of the tower, she would..."-Mark Seibert.
"Oh that's right."-Roberta Williams
"That was a long time ago"-Mark Seibert
"That was long...that was like two designs before the design that we...I tell you...I didn't remember that, that is amazing...little bit of trivia that is true."-Roberta Williams
"Actually I think if we could go back into the design, I think I would advocate doing more with her. I think she was much more fun character. I think I would have liked to have been able to see her inside her castle, and to do some things with her in there. Which we had originally planned, but it's one of those things. It's always painful to see the leftover design that gets left on the cutting room floor, and you just think about that. The Swamp Witch is real fun."-Talkspot Part 2, December 1998.

So i'd be careful trying to say your "defining her vision" but rather defining what you would have rather seen in the game (your vision based on prototype visions). Only way you'd know what her "vision" was is either talk to her, or just read or hear her quotes from interviews (from around the game's release) to gleen what she changed intentionally and what she was forced to change.

Quote
Baggins, so besides the Dark engine, what are some others you'd suggest? I just want to go for that retro 3D look--Nothing modern at all.
You can get the retro look with any engine, including modern engines. Graphics are all about the models you use in the game, not the engine itself. You want a blocky character models, you just make blocky character models.

As I mentioned, if you use the really early engines, you will probably hit a problem with either the fact that it doesn't have the physics capabilities, scripting capabilities, etc, that made MOE too ambitious in the first place. Whereas if you use a modern engine, that has those abilities built in already, all you would have to do is just make the game with retro graphics, and you'll also have all the tools at hand for the other features that would have been included in the earliest phase.

Quote
Notice the old well of Daventry
Well, to be fair there is no evidence that is the "old well". It could be, but it isn't necessarily.

The area doesn't even look to have a forest around it (not even a charred forest), so it could be "anywhere". last time we saw the ancient well, it was uh broken and filled with rocks.

Also while old well has been given two different physical appearances, although a wooden roof in KQ1 original/KQ3 (albeit its a very big well in KQ1 original), it was was made out of stone in the remake.

Basically I'd like to get as close as to the unadulterated vision as possible and create a game based around that. Try to get all of the cut stuff, use the original graphics that we see in the '96 InterAction, and also use some of the elements of the 1997 version. Basically a mix of the "Connor MacLyrr" and "Connor the son of the Fisherman" stage. And make the dialogue in modern or pseudo-modern English like in the previous games.  Maybe even add in some stuff that wasn't there--She said the influence on Mask was JRR Tolkien--it could become an epic if the story is given a bit more depth.

Basically it would be the 1995-1997 Mask of Eternity++ remake. Take little elements from the 1996 and 1997 versions:
-Keep the '96 graphics with Daventry as a brighter place (live trees, daylight, the Well, the Castle in the Valley, the world radiating out from Daventry with the town and seaside town with Hydra).
-Put in the cut storylines and subplots and adventures (such as searching in the Underwater world for Amethyst, and the element of the sunken ship that's on one of the design notes I showed you--In Roberta's notes she writes that the pirates were about to raid Daventry)
-Put in cut locations such as the Underwater Level, expand Paradise Lost
-Give a more darker, Mesopotamian look to the Underworld and maybe even a darker atmosphere--Like the KQ4 spookiness
-Keep the idea of a mythical Hermit and Island King mentioned in Roberta's note.
-Keep the 1996 version of Connor (with the Arabian outfit, keeping the same outfit throughout the game--No changes of armor) and the story version of Connor as Marble Statue turned to life or (keeping with the Christian elements such as Paradise Lost and Lucreto as Lucifer), take the '97 "Connor the Fisherman" angle.
-Add in more depth to the "Lucreto as Lucifer/Fallen Angel" angle, really make the villain a deeper character.
-Make the Zombies less Mummy looking, more like the KQ6 zombies.
-Keep the idea of the "Green Man" (of myth) which is mentioned in Roberta's notes.
-Keep the idea of the "Wood Whisps" mentioned in Roberta's notes.
-Keep the idea of the "Phoenix egg" as an item that needs to be given to an alchemist.
-Give a fulfilling ending where Connor meets King Graham and is rewarded or praised
-Keep the subplot of saving the Bandit in the Barren Regions from Roberta's notes
-Keep the ''Dark Abyss'' mentioned in her note
-Keep BOTH the Leprechaun and Red Cap Goblin, put them in separate locations. Maybe turn the Leprechaun into a good character, with a hint of the lightness of KQ5 to his character.
-Make the dialogue modern English like in KQ2-KQVII, or return to the Pseudo-Modern English of the KQ1 Remake.

Sort of like the KQ2+ VGA remake.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 07:51:41 PM by TheReturnofDMD »

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2010, 02:03:30 AM »
Interesting ideas, and would make for a fun game, however, just a few corrections on your history.
Quote
Connor MacLyrr" and "Connor the son of the Fisherman
"
That's both the same stage actually. The Connor mac Lyrr and Connor the son of the Fisherman are the same stage. The whole mac Lyrr name was actually a nod to his fisherman/sea roots. Look up the mac Lyrr family mythology. The son of the fisherman stuff actually was first mentioned in Interaction, when were given the mac Lyrr name.

The Connor of Daventry stage was him being just the "tanner".
Quote
keeping the same outfit throughout the game--No changes of armor
Well technically I don't think that was the plan exactly. What we see in the 1996 screen shots is very early staged screenshots. Basically there was no game at that point. They were building levels and character designs in 3Spaces 3-d modeler/level designer program (not the actual game engine itself at that point, I.E. not playable), so everything was staged, they had that initial Connor model, and were just putting him into shots.

The playable game engine itself (i.e. not the level/model editor) was being designed at Dynamix at the time, away from Sierra's studios. Sierra was hoping they would have the physics material included in time for them to start implementing their level designs and characters into the game.

This is why there is can't be any "demo version" of that era. We'd be lucky if someone had the model and early level files though, and were willing to turn them over :p... that's just wishful thinking however

It's pure speculation to think that's "how he would be throughout the entire game". Nothing ever stated he would remain in the same outfit throughout the entire game.

Infact the outfit changing thing and Connor's ultimate appearance had nothing to do with the "time and money" issue, seeing as it actually was an expenditure to add realism to the game. It would have taken time and money to implement that technology. If they wanted to save time and money, they could have went the route of not changing his outfits, and leaving him with his initial appearance. But they didn't do that, and instead took the time to develop his appearance.
Quote
Make the Zombies less Mummy looking, more like the KQ6 zombies.
What's wrong with the mummy zombies? I think that would fit better into the mesopotamian Underworld (barring making the zombies wear mesopotamian style outfits). Even when we saw the last of the "mesopotamian style" underworld in early "Connor of Daventry", they were using mummy like zombies.

Besides that pirate zombies (KQ6) just wouldn't fit Mesopotamian theme at all, LOL.
Quote
and Lucreto as Lucifer
Point of note actually the Lucifer angle was never dropped. He was the head of the archons saw himself greater than God (the Mask), and fomented a rebellion in Heaven. The only difference in the original story, Lucifer was kicked out of heaven. Lucreto gets kicked into another dimension (by Connor).

I can see you wanting to extend that story further though.
Quote
and the story version of Connor as Marble Statue turned to life
That's pre-connor prototype stage (before all the Connor mac Lyrr stuff), when the character had no name, and would be the mysterious living statue, when all humans were turned to stone, and the statue turned to life.

Quote
Wood Whisps
Point of trivia, I think those evolved into the Swamp Wisps. The Green Man decription seems he might have evolved into King Mudge storyline.

Quote
the world radiating out from Daventry
That didn't happen in the 1996 version (its pre concept stage). As soon as they actually started making the 1996 version, they were stuck having to do linear stuff. Because the 3Space level editor/modeler being used by Sierra and engine being designed over at Dynamix wouldn't allow anything else but that, the whole palette issue (that and Roberta wanted to have things more linear).

Quote
Keep BOTH the Leprechaun and Red Cap Goblin, put them in separate locations. Maybe turn the Leprechaun into a good character, with a hint of the lightness of KQ5 to his character.
Ya, interesting idea, just don't claim it was "Roberta's idea". We have a pretty clear history from her on that subject. She's the one that stated they were variations of the same character (she couldn't decide which to use, LOL).

On a side note, I don't think the change to the Gnome's appearances has anything to do with the "budget cuts"... Because they actually would have expended more time and money to change the models from the dwarf gnomes into the pasty gnomes they finally decided upon.

But if you want to play on that you could have them as two seperate races, perhaps a race of dwarfs and the gnomes, maybe at war with each other. Connor has to bring peace between the two races.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 02:50:30 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2010, 05:48:24 AM »
Interesting ideas, and would make for a fun game, however, just a few corrections on your history.
Quote
Connor MacLyrr" and "Connor the son of the Fisherman
"
That's both the same stage actually. The Connor mac Lyrr and Connor the son of the Fisherman are the same stage. The whole mac Lyrr name was actually a nod to his fisherman/sea roots. Look up the mac Lyrr family mythology. The son of the fisherman stuff actually was first mentioned in Interaction, when were given the mac Lyrr name.

The Connor of Daventry stage was him being just the "tanner".
Quote
keeping the same outfit throughout the game--No changes of armor
Well technically I don't think that was the plan exactly. What we see in the 1996 screen shots is very early staged screenshots. Basically there was no game at that point. They were building levels and character designs in 3Spaces 3-d modeler/level designer program (not the actual game engine itself at that point, I.E. not playable), so everything was staged, they had that initial Connor model, and were just putting him into shots.

The playable game engine itself (i.e. not the level/model editor) was being designed at Dynamix at the time, away from Sierra's studios. Sierra was hoping they would have the physics material included in time for them to start implementing their level designs and characters into the game.

This is why there is can't be any "demo version" of that era. We'd be lucky if someone had the model and early level files though, and were willing to turn them over :p... that's just wishful thinking however

It's pure speculation to think that's "how he would be throughout the entire game". Nothing ever stated he would remain in the same outfit throughout the entire game.

Infact the outfit changing thing and Connor's ultimate appearance had nothing to do with the "time and money" issue, seeing as it actually was an expenditure to add realism to the game. It would have taken time and money to implement that technology. If they wanted to save time and money, they could have went the route of not changing his outfits, and leaving him with his initial appearance. But they didn't do that, and instead took the time to develop his appearance.
Quote
Make the Zombies less Mummy looking, more like the KQ6 zombies.
What's wrong with the mummy zombies? I think that would fit better into the mesopotamian Underworld (barring making the zombies wear mesopotamian style outfits). Even when we saw the last of the "mesopotamian style" underworld in early "Connor of Daventry", they were using mummy like zombies.

Besides that pirate zombies (KQ6) just wouldn't fit Mesopotamian theme at all, LOL.
Quote
and Lucreto as Lucifer
Point of note actually the Lucifer angle was never dropped. He was the head of the archons saw himself greater than God (the Mask), and fomented a rebellion in Heaven. The only difference in the original story, Lucifer was kicked out of heaven. Lucreto gets kicked into another dimension (by Connor).

I can see you wanting to extend that story further though.
Quote
and the story version of Connor as Marble Statue turned to life
That's pre-connor prototype stage (before all the Connor mac Lyrr stuff), when the character had no name, and would be the mysterious living statue, when all humans were turned to stone, and the statue turned to life.

Quote
Wood Whisps
Point of trivia, I think those evolved into the Swamp Wisps. The Green Man decription seems he might have evolved into King Mudge storyline.

Quote
the world radiating out from Daventry
That didn't happen in the 1996 version (its pre concept stage). As soon as they actually started making the 1996 version, they were stuck having to do linear stuff. Because the 3Space level editor/modeler being used by Sierra and engine being designed over at Dynamix wouldn't allow anything else but that, the whole palette issue (that and Roberta wanted to have things more linear).

Quote
Keep BOTH the Leprechaun and Red Cap Goblin, put them in separate locations. Maybe turn the Leprechaun into a good character, with a hint of the lightness of KQ5 to his character.
Ya, interesting idea, just don't claim it was "Roberta's idea". We have a pretty clear history from her on that subject. She's the one that stated they were variations of the same character (she couldn't decide which to use, LOL).

On a side note, I don't think the change to the Gnome's appearances has anything to do with the "budget cuts"... Because they actually would have expended more time and money to change the models from the dwarf gnomes into the pasty gnomes they finally decided upon.

But if you want to play on that you could have them as two seperate races, perhaps a race of dwarfs and the gnomes, maybe at war with each other. Connor has to bring peace between the two races.

1) Well, I'm still deciding on whether to go with the Son of the Fisherman angle or the Marble Statue turned to Life angle.
2) We can never know for sure, however I myself always found the changing of armor to be a bit silly (I know, it was to supplement the RPG part of the game) and keeping one costume would be more in line with past King's Quest games.
3) Perhaps the Zombies in the Underworld can Mummy looking, and the Zombies in Daventry can be more Ghoulish looking.
4) I think expanding it just a bit might make Lucreto more of an interesting villain. His motives aren't really well developed in the game, all he does is break the Mask and we're never given an explanation in game as to why he does so.
5) See number one. I'm not sure on what Connor should be in the remake yet.
6) Maybe. We don't know for sure. I don't see how the "Green Man" could be turned into a Snail though.
7) I still think the 'non' linear design is better. Or maybe some worlds (like the Underworld, The Temple Islands, Paradise Lost) will be non-linear, but others (like the Swamp and Barren Region) will be linear.
8) Well, I won't claim it's 'Roberta's idea.' Perhaps the Leprechaun could look like the Leprechauns of KQI. Maybe he'd actually be a bad guy, in league with Lucreto's side because he was promised the return of the Shield of Daventry to his people--I mean Roberta was going for Tolkien, I'd say that's Tolkien-esque.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2010, 06:20:20 AM »
Quote
We can never know for sure, however I myself always found the changing of armor to be a bit silly (I know, it was to supplement the RPG part of the game) and keeping one costume would be more in line with past King's Quest games.
Well, actually we do have a few quotes on the development of the armor system. Quite a bit was mentioned in the Interaction magazines IIRC. However, it's always possible although he changes armor, that to the player he would have just "appeared the same".

Although in the released version, though some of the armor is actually tied directly into the plot/puzzles/objectives.

We also know that all the screenshots with the proto-conner, were done on the 3Space level/model editor, and not the game engine itself (which at the time was still being developed out of studio at Dynamix). So represent a non-playable sandbox more or less, that could show model animations (in the model mode), but could also allow levels to be constructed and allow models to be placed into the levels (for appearances). Extremely primitive interface, mainly allowing the "player to "fly" around the map (note the airplane cursor). It also seemed to allow the user to target a model, and "rotate around it" in relation to other background objects.

Quote
think expanding it just a bit might make Lucreto more of an interesting villain. His motives aren't really well developed in the game, all he does is break the Mask and we're never given an explanation in game as to why he does so.
Actually there are several places in the game that mention his motives, the most important one is the material in the "Dimmed Crystal Pyramid". Uriel also explains things up on top of the pyramid in the Barrens (again just before you use the Crystal Pyramid to unlock the entrance to the Temple of the Sun). Plus if you hang around to listen to the archons voices in the Temple of the Sun, they also explain his motives. Its also nodded to by Prophet Hector, and several of the prophecies., we also learn a bit through the henchman's comments. There is some motives described by Thork as well.

Sorry I don't remember all the details of his motives. It was in general to become like God basically, unfortunately, his evil and selfishness caused the shattering of the mask, he wasn't trying to "shatter it" (he was never meant to use it). That's why he has his henchman out searching for the mask to bring them back to him so he can use them. Connor just happens to reach the pieces before his henchmen, and they end up fighting over possesion of the pieces. Even the cataclysm caused by the shattering of the mask was unintentional yet prophesied byproduct of Lucreto's jealous attempt to wield the power of the mask.

Quote
6) Maybe. We don't know for sure. I don't see how the "Green Man" could be turned into a Snail though
.
In the same way that a red cap goblin became a leprechaun became a spriggan.

More importantly it has more to do with the fact that King Mudge is described as being elemental ruler of the Swamp, and the one with the help of his wisps at keeping the the place "green" and healthy. So while not exactly in the same form, seems to share similar role, and storyline.

Quote
Well, I won't claim it's 'Roberta's idea.' Perhaps the Leprechaun could look like the Leprechauns of KQI. Maybe he'd actually be a bad guy, in league with Lucreto's side because he was promised the return of the Shield of Daventry to his people--I mean Roberta was going for Tolkien, I'd say that's Tolkien-esque.
Interesting idea, ya, they were villains in KQ1 (although not entirely evil, the reason why you don't go about killing them in that game).

Quote
I still think the 'non' linear design is better. Or maybe some worlds (like the Underworld, The Temple Islands, Paradise Lost) will be non-linear, but others (like the Swamp and Barren Region) will be linear.
Well best I could make out looking at those early maps, is it's mainly just Daventry. The locations in released daventry were scattered around a bit differently though. Like for example the swamp was in the northeast of Castle Daventry, and that's where the unicorn would have been located apparently. Farms seem to be scattered around south of the castle.

Beyond that technically the map doesn't look like it was meant to show elevation, just areas (so the castle may or may not have been on a mountain), but we can see that rivers flow out from the moat (that actually happened in the game, the waterfall).

Underworld probably would have been under the world, LOL, so meant a different load screen. Realm of the gnomes would have been underground, thus another loading area. Since most of the Barrens and Frosty Mountains seem to be based miles away from Daventry, probably would have been in a separate load screen.

Even that note page you sent breaks things up by levels/themes.

You may have noticed that they also maintained the "elemental" realms idea in the released game, they just combined the water to the swamp (since they lost the ocean level). Fire remained in the barrens. The air still remained in the Frozen Reaches. Earth remained in underground realm of the sun. The divine realms were DoD (moon/darkness/death), and Realm of the Sun (sun/light/life)

It seems as if they wanted Daventry to be a bit bigger than it turned out to be.

On a side note the hermit is still in the game, although his purpose was split. Part of his use went to the Wizard of Daventry, the other half went to the hermit/crystal mystic/aged one/prophet hector character/s.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 06:38:54 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2010, 06:59:06 AM »
Quote
We can never know for sure, however I myself always found the changing of armor to be a bit silly (I know, it was to supplement the RPG part of the game) and keeping one costume would be more in line with past King's Quest games.
Well, actually we do have a few quotes on the development of the armor system. Quite a bit was mentioned in the Interaction magazines IIRC. However, it's always possible although he changes armor, that to the player he would have just "appeared the same".

Although in the released version, though some of the armor is actually tied directly into the plot/puzzles/objectives.

We also know that all the screenshots with the proto-conner, were done on the 3Space level/model editor, and not the game engine itself (which at the time was still being developed out of studio at Dynamix). So represent a non-playable sandbox more or less, that could show model animations (in the model mode), but could also allow levels to be constructed and allow models to be placed into the levels (for appearances). Extremely primitive interface, mainly allowing the "player to "fly" around the map (note the airplane cursor). It also seemed to allow the user to target a model, and "rotate around it" in relation to other background objects.

Quote
think expanding it just a bit might make Lucreto more of an interesting villain. His motives aren't really well developed in the game, all he does is break the Mask and we're never given an explanation in game as to why he does so.
Actually there are several places in the game that mention his motives, the most important one is the material in the "Dimmed Crystal Pyramid". Uriel also explains things up on top of the pyramid in the Barrens (again just before you use the Crystal Pyramid to unlock the entrance to the Temple of the Sun). Plus if you hang around to listen to the archons voices in the Temple of the Sun, they also explain his motives. Its also nodded to by Prophet Hector, and several of the prophecies., we also learn a bit through the henchman's comments. There is some motives described by Thork as well.

Sorry I don't remember all the details of his motives. It was in general to become like God basically, unfortunately, his evil and selfishness caused the shattering of the mask, he wasn't trying to "shatter it" (he was never meant to use it). That's why he has his henchman out searching for the mask to bring them back to him so he can use them. Connor just happens to reach the pieces before his henchmen, and they end up fighting over possesion of the pieces. Even the cataclysm caused by the shattering of the mask was unintentional yet prophesied byproduct of Lucreto's jealous attempt to wield the power of the mask.

Quote
6) Maybe. We don't know for sure. I don't see how the "Green Man" could be turned into a Snail though
.
In the same way that a red cap goblin became a leprechaun became a spriggan.

More importantly it has more to do with the fact that King Mudge is described as being elemental ruler of the Swamp, and the one with the help of his wisps at keeping the the place "green" and healthy. So while not exactly in the same form, seems to share similar role, and storyline.

Quote
Well, I won't claim it's 'Roberta's idea.' Perhaps the Leprechaun could look like the Leprechauns of KQI. Maybe he'd actually be a bad guy, in league with Lucreto's side because he was promised the return of the Shield of Daventry to his people--I mean Roberta was going for Tolkien, I'd say that's Tolkien-esque.
Interesting idea, ya, they were villains in KQ1 (although not entirely evil, the reason why you don't go about killing them in that game).

Quote
I still think the 'non' linear design is better. Or maybe some worlds (like the Underworld, The Temple Islands, Paradise Lost) will be non-linear, but others (like the Swamp and Barren Region) will be linear.
Well best I could make out looking at those early maps, is it's mainly just Daventry. The locations in released daventry were scattered around a bit differently though. Like for example the swamp was in the northeast of Castle Daventry, and that's where the unicorn would have been located apparently. Farms seem to be scattered around south of the castle.

Beyond that technically the map doesn't look like it was meant to show elevation, just areas (so the castle may or may not have been on a mountain), but we can see that rivers flow out from the moat (that actually happened in the game, the waterfall).

Underworld probably would have been under the world, LOL, so meant a different load screen. Realm of the gnomes would have been underground, thus another loading area. Since most of the Barrens and Frosty Mountains seem to be based miles away from Daventry, probably would have been in a separate load screen.

Even that note page you sent breaks things up by levels/themes.

You may have noticed that they also maintained the "elemental" realms idea in the released game, they just combined the water to the swamp (since they lost the ocean level). Fire remained in the barrens. The air still remained in the Frozen Reaches. Earth remained in underground realm of the sun. The divine realms were DoD (moon/darkness/death), and Realm of the Sun (sun/light/life)

It seems as if they wanted Daventry to be a bit bigger than it turned out to be.

On a side note the hermit is still in the game, although his purpose was split. Part of his use went to the Wizard of Daventry, the other half went to the hermit/crystal mystic/aged one/prophet hector character/s.

I'm going to stick to my guns with regard to the ''changing armor'' concept. Every character in every prior KQ game has a set costume--And some, like Graham, retain the same custom "forever" it seems.

I'm thinking of ditching the more 'RPG' elements anyway--the whole ''Levelling Up'' and other things. It seemed a bit tacked when I played the game, like just thrown in to attract RPG fans.

As for his motives, if they did explain it in some areas good, though I'd love for Lucreto to say them early in the game, directly--when he and Connor have their confrontation through the Mirror perhaps. "Ha, thou wouldst think to challenge a God, Mortal?" Just a little added line there makes him even more scary and mysterious, but at the same time sheds a little light--this guy is a God, or at least THINKS he is--Which would then be further expanded upon by the knowledge that Hector gives you.

As for the Leprechauns, well we wouldn't be going on a Leprechaun genocide--Just one Leprechaun who sided with Lucreto in exchange for a promise that his people would get ''their'' Shield back, which was stolen. I would imagine Lucreto's decision--To shatter the Mask--wasn't a sudden decision and probably was months or years in the making, he would need to attract SOME to his cause. Roberta in her notes mentions the sunken pirate ship was going to raid Daventry--Perhaps they were going to raid Daventry at the behest of Lucreto, basically to take whatever treasures they could find back to their Lord?

They might not have been ordinary, random pirates.

I wish someone could get a hold of those maps shown in the Making of Video. Maybe John Stoll or someone has them? They have to be somewhere. If we could get a complete world map, it'd help a lot.

By the way, I notice that there seems to be a lot of Christian mysticism in the subtext of MoE's storyline, and even in some superficial details, like the Church (with the Gregorian-esque chanting). Christian mysticism seems to loom heavy here, whereas true religious overtones weren't really explored in the previous games outside of the Fates.



Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2010, 07:21:32 AM »
Quote
I'm going to stick to my guns with regard to the ''changing armor'' concept. Every character in every prior KQ game has a set costume--And some, like Graham, retain the same custom "forever" it seems.
Not quite, Graham changes clothing in KQ1 (puts on his crown) and KQ2 (wedding tuxedo), somewhat in KQ4 (Graham wears a padded red leather jerkin), and in KQV (the traveling cape). Its most noticeably in KQ2. Albeit these changes only appear mainly in the cutscenes.

Oh, in KQ7, Rosella puts on the black cloak ;) during a certain chapter.

Quote
I'm thinking of ditching the more 'RPG' elements anyway--the whole ''Levelling Up'' and other things. It seemed a bit tacked when I played the game, like just thrown in to attract RPG fans.

Did you read the behind the scenes section on why "combat"? It had more to do with the fact that the levels were so wide open and empty, with nothing to do. They tossed in enemies to give the world more life, and a feel of being inhabited. Again I suggest reading the behind the scenes info about that. It was an idea developed pretty early on. Back when they were working on the 3Space level editor (look at the frost demons).

Another reason why the included it was they wanted it to be more Tolkienesque, where the heros do fight forces of evil physically. They wanted to nod to the swashbuckling sequence in KQ6 where Alexander and Alhazred sword fight each other.

Quote
As for his motives, if they did explain it in some areas good, though I'd love for Lucreto to say them early in the game, directly--when he and Connor have their confrontation through the Mirror perhaps. "Ha, thou wouldst think to challenge a God, Mortal?" Just a little added line there makes him even more scary and mysterious, but at the same time sheds a little light--this guy is a God, or at least THINKS he is--Which would then be further expanded upon by the knowledge that Hector gives you.

Well actually he doesn't start noticing Connor until later, that's why the first Henchman has no idea who he is, but as the game progresses they begin to know of him, and tell you what Lucreto thinks of him. At the time he first sees Lucreto in the Mirror, Lucreto doesn't really have any clue who he is, nor does he know if he's a threat. If I remember that mirro scene correctly, its actually just showing him sending his henchman out to find the mask pieces. I don't remember if he even acknowledged Connor in the mirror or not.

Quote
As for the Leprechauns, well we wouldn't be going on a Leprechaun genocide--Just one Leprechaun who sided with Lucreto in exchange for a promise that his people would get ''their'' Shield back, which was stolen. I would imagine Lucreto's decision--To shatter the Mask--wasn't a sudden decision and probably was months or years in the making, he would need to attract SOME to his cause. Roberta in her notes mentions the sunken pirate ship was going to raid Daventry--Perhaps they were going to raid Daventry at the behest of Lucreto, basically to take whatever treasures they could find back to their Lord?

I'm confused... so you want the Lucreto to "intentionally shatter the mask"? Rather than just trying to steal it to use for himself? As I was trying to explain, in the released game, he didn't even want to shatter the mask, that was an accident (caused by the fact he wasn't meant to wield it). It's the whole reason why he sent out his henchman to find and gather the pieces again.

Quote
They might not have been ordinary, random pirates

Point of note, the notes don't say directly that they are pirates. But I can see where you assume that, they have a "treasure map", they might have a shovel, and there is a treasure that hte map leads to. The notes do describe them as being 'raiders' though. Which is technically another name for pirates in some cases.  But could also describe vikings, LOL.

Quote
I wish someone could get a hold of those maps shown in the Making of Video. Maybe John Stoll or someone has them? They have to be somewhere. If we could get a complete world map, it'd help a lot.
Don't turn your eye away from the released map, actually you'll notice that it seems to show the sea side level that was cut.(notice the ships on the water)


Quote
By the way, I notice that there seems to be a lot of Christian mysticism in the subtext of MoE's storyline, and even in some superficial details, like the Church (with the Gregorian-esque chanting). Christian mysticism seems to loom heavy here, whereas true religious overtones weren't really explored in the previous games outside of the Fates.

Don't forget the Monastery in KQ2, which made a huge deal about crosses, and praying, and brothers who protect travelers, and bell that calls brothers to mass. The avoiding harming a person of the cloth.

There are also one or two religious comments on the grave stones in KQ4, IIRC, with a reference to God iirc.

The priests in KQ VIII seem to be based off an eastern orthodox church, based on the priest's robes.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 07:28:10 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2010, 07:32:48 AM »
Quote
I'm going to stick to my guns with regard to the ''changing armor'' concept. Every character in every prior KQ game has a set costume--And some, like Graham, retain the same custom "forever" it seems.
Not quite, Graham changes clothing in KQ1 (puts on his crown) and KQ2 (wedding tuxedo), somewhat in KQ4, and in KQV (the traveling cape). Its most noticeably in KQ2. Albeit these changes only appear mainly in the cutscenes.

Oh, in KQ7, Rosella puts on the black cloak ;) during a certain chapter.

Quote
I'm thinking of ditching the more 'RPG' elements anyway--the whole ''Levelling Up'' and other things. It seemed a bit tacked when I played the game, like just thrown in to attract RPG fans.

Did you read the behind the scenes section on why "combat"? It had more to do with the fact that the levels were so wide open and empty, with nothing to do. They tossed in enemies to give the world more life, and a feel of being inhabited. Again I suggest reading the behind the scenes info about that. It was an idea developed pretty early on. Back when they were working on the 3Space level editor (look at the frost demons).

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As for his motives, if they did explain it in some areas good, though I'd love for Lucreto to say them early in the game, directly--when he and Connor have their confrontation through the Mirror perhaps. "Ha, thou wouldst think to challenge a God, Mortal?" Just a little added line there makes him even more scary and mysterious, but at the same time sheds a little light--this guy is a God, or at least THINKS he is--Which would then be further expanded upon by the knowledge that Hector gives you.

Well actually he doesn't start noticing Connor until later, that's why the first Henchman has no idea who he is, but as the game progresses they begin to know of him, and tell you what Lucreto thinks of him. At the time he first sees Lucreto in the Mirror, Lucreto doesn't really have any clue who he is, nor does he know if he's a threat. If I remember that mirro scene correctly, its actually just showing him sending his henchman out to find the mask pieces. I don't remember if he even acknowledged Connor in the mirror or not.

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As for the Leprechauns, well we wouldn't be going on a Leprechaun genocide--Just one Leprechaun who sided with Lucreto in exchange for a promise that his people would get ''their'' Shield back, which was stolen. I would imagine Lucreto's decision--To shatter the Mask--wasn't a sudden decision and probably was months or years in the making, he would need to attract SOME to his cause. Roberta in her notes mentions the sunken pirate ship was going to raid Daventry--Perhaps they were going to raid Daventry at the behest of Lucreto, basically to take whatever treasures they could find back to their Lord?

I'm confused... so you want the Lucreto to "intentionally shatter the mask"? Rather than just trying to steal it to use for himself? As I was trying to explain, in the original story, he didn't even want to shatter the mask, that was an accident (caused by the fact he wasn't meant to wield it). It's the whole reason why he sent out his henchman to find and gather the pieces again.

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They might not have been ordinary, random pirates

Point of note, the notes don't say directly that they are pirates. But I can see where you assume that, they have a "treasure map", they might have a shovel, and there is a treasure that hte map leads to. The notes do describe them as being 'raiders' though. Which is technically another name for pirates in some cases.  But could also describe vikings, LOL.

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I wish someone could get a hold of those maps shown in the Making of Video. Maybe John Stoll or someone has them? They have to be somewhere. If we could get a complete world map, it'd help a lot.
Don't turn your eye away from the released map, actually you'll notice that it seems to show the sea side level that was cut.(notice the ships on the water)


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By the way, I notice that there seems to be a lot of Christian mysticism in the subtext of MoE's storyline, and even in some superficial details, like the Church (with the Gregorian-esque chanting). Christian mysticism seems to loom heavy here, whereas true religious overtones weren't really explored in the previous games outside of the Fates.

Don't forget the Monastery in KQ2, which made a huge deal about crosses, and praying, and brothers who protect travelers, and bell that calls brothers to mass. The avoiding harming a person of the cloth.

There are also one or two religious comments on the grave stones in KQ4, IIRC, with a reference to God iirc.

The priests in KQ VIII seem to be based off an eastern orthodox church, based on the priest's robes.

True, but I mean those aren't really MAJOR clothes changes or a constant changing back and forth of clothes like in MoE.

I have no problem with the combat elements. Just the RPG elemts--the Levelling Up, Changing of Armor. I actually like the action elements.

And in the Mirror scene (in Daventry's Castle) he threatens and challenges Connor, calling him a "stripling" and that he should essentially run back to his mother. So I'd say he's aware that Connor is a challenge to him. He says, "You think you can foil me?"

Excuse me then--To take the Mask. Either way, the point is--I think his overall plot was to be God, and he also had to have allies (the shipwrecked "Raiders", the Leprechaun, the Henchmen, the Demons you enter in the Realm of the Sun) to achieve this goal. I'm not sure if the Swamp Witch would've been involved but she could've been--the Unicorn says the Witch stole the Horn right around the exact time the Cataclysm takes place if I recall correctly. You're right--the breaking of the Mask wasn't intended, that's why he has the Henchmen try to retrieve each piece. The effects of the Mask breaking could've actually been devastating to his overall plan--The Raiders who were supposed to attack Daventry somehow sunk during the Cataclysm, for example.

True--But the Christian sentiment wasn't too OVERT in the games, whereas the mythology of this game (with the Alchemy and other elements) being heavily Christian Medieval period stuff.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2010, 07:33:53 AM »
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Keep the '96 graphics with Daventry as a brighter place (live trees,

Point of note, actually Daventry is one of the most "live" places in the game already as far as trees, plants, etc (notice the hedges and pine trees, not so much the decidious trees), maybe more so than the swamp, and Paradise Lost (which by the way would have been a dark world according to the notes, not a place of flowers and stone henge).
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 07:36:46 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2010, 07:35:54 AM »
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Keep the '96 graphics with Daventry as a brighter place (live trees,

Point of note, actually Daventry is one of the most "live" places in the game already as far as trees, plants, etc, maybe more so than the swamp, and Paradise Lost (which by the way would have been a dark world according to the notes, not a place of flowers and stone henge).

Right. But I'd like to keep Daventry as the sole, remaining source of light in the midst of darkness, with "Paradise Lost" perhaps as an example of what the rest of the world will become if Lucreto wins.

And then there's Roberta's mention of the ''Dark Abyss.'' I don't recall any Dark Abyss featured in the game, but perhaps it could be in Paradise Lost--A dark Abyss, perhaps filled with images of what the world will be if Lucreto wins. Perhaps Spirits of some kind, maybe Elemental Spirits (like in KQ7) could talk to Connor there and hammer home the importance of his Quest, showing how the world will be covered in darkness and devoid of all beauty, like Paradise Lost, if Lucreto wins the day.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 07:39:35 AM by TheReturnofDMD »

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2010, 07:39:36 AM »
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And in the Mirror scene (in Daventry's Castle) he threatens and challenges Connor, calling him a "stripling" and that he should essentially run back to his mother. So I'd say he's aware that Connor is a challenge to him. He says, "You think you can foil me?"

Hmm, that's right by then I think you even have the first piece of the mask. So he's starting to get a sense of who this person might be.

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Christian sentiment wasn't too OVERT in the games, whereas the mythology of this game (with the Alchemy and other elements) being heavily Christian Medieval period stuff.
Well Christian sentiment is in KQ2, but its limited the same level as in Bram Stoker's Dracula really.

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And then there's Roberta's mention of the ''Dark Abyss.'' I don't recall any Dark Abyss featured in the game, but perhaps it could be in Paradise Lost--A dark Abyss, perhaps filled with images of what the world will be if Lucreto wins. Perhaps Spirits of some kind, maybe Elemental Spirits (like in KQ7) could talk to Connor there and hammer home the importance of his Quest, showing how the world will be covered in darkness and devoid of all beauty, like Paradise Lost, if Lucreto wins the day.

The dark abyss or the abyss, is another poetic description for the Underworld. I think its actually mentioned in game on one of those riddles and poems you can read on pillars in the Dimension of Death.

Though technically with an underwater level you could play with the idea of an underwater dark abyss.

Come to think of it, the Paradise in Paradise Lost is supposed to be the Garden of Eden. The Paradise that Adam and Eve lost. I now understand why they chose to make it a sunlit world in the final release. It makes more sense that way from religious Milton reference sense. It's literally supposed to be Eden, and contains the entrance to Heaven. Adam and Eve lost Eden, and lost their direct connection to Heaven.

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I have no problem with the combat elements. Just the RPG elemts--the Levelling Up, Changing of Armor. I actually like the action elements.
Technically, the moment you start developing a robust fighting system, and place into the game, there is an incentive to make the game have more challenge as you get further into the game. Generally this is done through either "leveling system" (Quest for Glory did this), or making enemies more difficult, and balancing things through armor upgrades, or the combination of both (Quest for Glory V did this).

Just having enemies that don't get more difficult, and having no way to make yourself stronger against increasing powerful enemies just makes the game tedius, overly repetitive, and pointless. If I was just going to be fighting a bunch of random enemies that are easy to kill it would take alot of the fun away. The RPG aspects are part of what makes the game fun, I have a reason to "make myself stronger", or discover new weapons and armor (which I actually find fun).

It's not so bad with FPS where you are shooting from a distance, but its something you'd notice when getting into the melee range. The Jedi Knight games were improved because they actually added RPG elements (to improve your close up sword fighting/force moves). Unlocking new skills, becoming stronger, a better fighter, more defensive, better weapons, is what makes those games so much fun.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 08:35:06 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg