Author Topic: Remaking MoE  (Read 53622 times)

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2010, 01:19:32 PM »
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And in the Mirror scene (in Daventry's Castle) he threatens and challenges Connor, calling him a "stripling" and that he should essentially run back to his mother. So I'd say he's aware that Connor is a challenge to him. He says, "You think you can foil me?"

Hmm, that's right by then I think you even have the first piece of the mask. So he's starting to get a sense of who this person might be.

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Christian sentiment wasn't too OVERT in the games, whereas the mythology of this game (with the Alchemy and other elements) being heavily Christian Medieval period stuff.
Well Christian sentiment is in KQ2, but its limited the same level as in Bram Stoker's Dracula really.

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And then there's Roberta's mention of the ''Dark Abyss.'' I don't recall any Dark Abyss featured in the game, but perhaps it could be in Paradise Lost--A dark Abyss, perhaps filled with images of what the world will be if Lucreto wins. Perhaps Spirits of some kind, maybe Elemental Spirits (like in KQ7) could talk to Connor there and hammer home the importance of his Quest, showing how the world will be covered in darkness and devoid of all beauty, like Paradise Lost, if Lucreto wins the day.

The dark abyss or the abyss, is another poetic description for the Underworld. I think its actually mentioned in game on one of those riddles and poems you can read on pillars in the Dimension of Death.

Though technically with an underwater level you could play with the idea of an underwater dark abyss.

Come to think of it, the Paradise in Paradise Lost is supposed to be the Garden of Eden. The Paradise that Adam and Eve lost. I now understand why they chose to make it a sunlit world in the final release. It makes more sense that way from religious Milton reference sense. It's literally supposed to be Eden, and contains the entrance to Heaven. Adam and Eve lost Eden, and lost their direct connection to Heaven.

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I have no problem with the combat elements. Just the RPG elemts--the Levelling Up, Changing of Armor. I actually like the action elements.
Technically, the moment you start developing a robust fighting system, and place into the game, there is an incentive to make the game have more challenge as you get further into the game. Generally this is done through either "leveling system" (Quest for Glory did this), or making enemies more difficult, and balancing things through armor upgrades, or the combination of both (Quest for Glory V did this).

Just having enemies that don't get more difficult, and having no way to make yourself stronger against increasing powerful enemies just makes the game tedius, overly repetitive, and pointless. If I was just going to be fighting a bunch of random enemies that are easy to kill it would take alot of the fun away. The RPG aspects are part of what makes the game fun, I have a reason to "make myself stronger", or discover new weapons and armor (which I actually find fun).

It's not so bad with FPS where you are shooting from a distance, but its something you'd notice when getting into the melee range. The Jedi Knight games were improved because they actually added RPG elements (to improve your close up sword fighting/force moves). Unlocking new skills, becoming stronger, a better fighter, more defensive, better weapons, is what makes those games so much fun.

How could he get a sense of who has the Mask? Connor KILLS Lucreto's henchman, so it's not like he can report back to him.

Exactly. Here the Medieval Christian mysticism is very heavy--More heavy I would say than any religious overtone is in any of the other games. The Fates are mentioned once, casually in KQ6, and than in KQ7, we visit them but it's all part of an already cartoonish, aimed at children adventure. It's like, to paraphrase Roberta, putting Walt Disney against JRR Tolkien. There's a lot of Medieval, Christian influences on MoE. Astrology and Alchemy were very much tied to Christianity in the Middle Ages, especially in the Early to High Middle Ages.

Perhaps, but it's never really explored further (Paradise Lost). It just seems kind of..tacked on. It could use further exploration/development.

And you're right. The RPG elements would probably have to stay in.

So does anyone want to help me?

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2010, 02:07:18 PM »
The henchmen are magical homunculi originating out of Lucreto's cauldron/scrying pool thing. Perhaps he can see through their eyes, or when they 'die' their magic returns to whene it originated.

I'd agree the game isn't entirely clear on that subject but it seems further you get into the game somehow Lucreto knows of everything you have been doing throughout the game.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2010, 03:45:33 PM »
The henchmen are magical homunculi originating out of Lucreto's cauldron/scrying pool thing. Perhaps he can see through their eyes, or when they 'die' their magic returns to whene it originated.

I'd agree the game isn't entirely clear on that subject but it seems further you get into the game somehow Lucreto knows of everything you have been doing throughout the game.

I personally think if he was developed further, Lucreto could be perhaps the BEST KQ villain. He's unlike anything any of the protagonists have faced before--He's literally an Angel or divine being, much higher I imagine in power than witches or Genies or Ghosts.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2010, 03:59:21 PM »
Albeit, Malicia was a fallen goddess more or less... In as much as the Fairy Nobles of Etheria and Eldritch are essentially the gods of their world (at least Titania's family; with such beings as Fates, Weaver of Dreams, even Oberon is pretty powerful individual Fairy Noble as well). Lolotte was of the same race, but I don't think she was anywhere near the power of the ruling nobles.

But Malicia isn't all that interesting as a villain. She never came accross as a frightening villain.

Lucreto definitely seemed more evil (more interesting character in the whole "Good vs. Evil" religious level of villainy). Shame though that final battle didn't have the same kind of oomph as say Mordack vs. Graham, or the swashbuckling at the end of KQ6 (although KQ6 battle was an even simpler puzzle). It wasn't bad fight, and probably would have been fine, had the ending not been anti-climactic. The lack of a well developed ending just destroys the mood.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline crayauchtin

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2010, 05:05:59 PM »
Malicia had potential to be one of the more evil, though not necessarily more terrifying, villains of the series up to that point. I'm certain she was toned down for the family-friendly Disney-esque style of the game. Had they kept the tone of KQ6 or KQ4 we'd all be singing a different tune about her.
That said, I understand why they toned her down and it still managed to work.

Lucreto, on the other hand, has potential to be even worse than she ever could have been and I would really like to see that explored in a MoE remake.
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Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2010, 05:16:48 PM »
It's pretty bad that Lolotte actually comes of seeming more evil and sinister than Malicia, :p...

Not to mention, that she feels more like a Lolotte retread... since her story essentially mirrors Lolotte.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2010, 05:27:06 PM »
It's pretty bad that Lolotte actually comes of seeming more evil and sinister than Malicia, :p...

Not to mention, that she feels more like a Lolotte retread... since her story essentially mirrors Lolotte.

Also, Malicia didn't have a very intimidating voice or image. Mordack had a typical evil bad guy voice and had an awesome, dark image, Abdul had a very sneaky sounding voice and an image to match it.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2010, 05:34:18 PM »
Also, if the villain has a dog or a cat, especially one named "cuddles" they come across as a "Mr. Claw", "Blofeld", "Dr. Evil" like character. Those are so easy to spoof :p....

The Boogeyman was creepier than her.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2010, 01:25:24 PM »
Does anyone want to help me try to remake MoE?

Offline kindofdoon

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2010, 04:58:46 PM »
I lack the programming skill and time, sorry. What you're trying to do is, in my opinion, overly ambitious. Perhaps you should start off with something more manageable. Just my two cents, take it or leave it.

Daniel Dichter, Production/PR
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TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2010, 07:39:52 PM »
I lack the programming skill and time, sorry. What you're trying to do is, in my opinion, overly ambitious. Perhaps you should start off with something more manageable. Just my two cents, take it or leave it.

Why is it overly ambitious?
I'm working with a game that in the scheme of things isn't too large and would be using nearly 14 year old graphics--So it's not like I'm going for anything state of the art. I'll basically be taking what is known about the early stages of the game and filling in the blanks.
People make 3D fan games all the time. Doom & Quake WADs for example.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2010, 12:10:35 AM »
Well no offense, but Doom wads are in a completely different league. You're talking technology that's almost twice as old as MOE, its more or less 3 years older than Super Mario 64 (which was an inspiration for MOE). In technology terms that's something like 10 years of technological advancement compared to other industries. Computer technology has been developing at a much faster rate than most industries

Also a big difference is Doom wad creators generally had level editors to work with, have had experience with the level editors for years (id Software actually included a level editor with the commericial version of the game), and have been developing ways to tweak the game, outside of its original scope, I.E. 3rd person style gameplay (although its more or less still limited by certain limitations inherit to the engine's level structure). Have you made a doom wad or any other game before?

Doom is also very simple, since its based on 2-d sprites, basically card-board cutouts, anyone could scan in any artwork basicall. Obviously the same works for textures in the game. So one person developers could do a wad or create a mod on there own.

Once you deal with 3-d models like Quake era, in general if it means changing all the textures in the game, and create new models its group based effort (or very minor modifications by individuals). ...or its just a new level using the game's original assets (using id's level editor).

Neither of these engines are going to fit the features needed for MOE exactly. For one thing I think quake's terrain is still consists of pretty much verticle walls, and claustrophobic passages, although it did have steps, it didn't really allow for hilly terrain. Most surfaces lead to sheer dropoffs, with no curved edges. Basically castle walls, and strange industrial complexes.

At least what we can see from MOE screenshots they were trying for distant mountains that while steep weren't necessarily completely verticle, and it did allow for more variation in wide open space, variable grading to the hills rounder edges near cliffs.

Now come to think of it, didn't red baron 2 (3Space engine) come with a level editor? If you really want to mimic the original you could try to work from scratch and tweak the 3Space engine to your needs ;). But again that would probably take experience on your part.

Another issue you should probably consider, is sending a letter out to Activision asking for permission. If you can get the permission early on, you can avoid C&D issues later on.

Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline kindofdoon

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2010, 11:10:42 AM »
DMD, what engine do you have in mind for your remake?

Daniel Dichter, Production/PR
daniel.dichter@postudios.com

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2010, 01:39:15 PM »
Like they say, hindsight is 20/20, there is always a bias in hindsight :p...
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2010, 03:27:44 PM »
All I need is a Co-Writer right now who can Co-Write the script with me. The programming stuff can come much later.

(Posted on: August 08, 2010, 03:52:48 PM)


Well no offense, but Doom wads are in a completely different league. You're talking technology that's almost twice as old as MOE, its more or less 3 years older than Super Mario 64 (which was an inspiration for MOE). In technology terms that's something like 10 years of technological advancement compared to other industries. Computer technology has been developing at a much faster rate than most industries

Also a big difference is Doom wad creators generally had level editors to work with, have had experience with the level editors for years (id Software actually included a level editor with the commericial version of the game), and have been developing ways to tweak the game, outside of its original scope, I.E. 3rd person style gameplay (although its more or less still limited by certain limitations inherit to the engine's level structure). Have you made a doom wad or any other game before?

Doom is also very simple, since its based on 2-d sprites, basically card-board cutouts, anyone could scan in any artwork basicall. Obviously the same works for textures in the game. So one person developers could do a wad or create a mod on there own.

Once you deal with 3-d models like Quake era, in general if it means changing all the textures in the game, and create new models its group based effort (or very minor modifications by individuals). ...or its just a new level using the game's original assets (using id's level editor).

Neither of these engines are going to fit the features needed for MOE exactly. For one thing I think quake's terrain is still consists of pretty much verticle walls, and claustrophobic passages, although it did have steps, it didn't really allow for hilly terrain. Most surfaces lead to sheer dropoffs, with no curved edges. Basically castle walls, and strange industrial complexes.

At least what we can see from MOE screenshots they were trying for distant mountains that while steep weren't necessarily completely verticle, and it did allow for more variation in wide open space, variable grading to the hills rounder edges near cliffs.

Now come to think of it, didn't red baron 2 (3Space engine) come with a level editor? If you really want to mimic the original you could try to work from scratch and tweak the 3Space engine to your needs ;). But again that would probably take experience on your part.

Another issue you should probably consider, is sending a letter out to Activision asking for permission. If you can get the permission early on, you can avoid C&D issues later on.



What if I went the route described in the very early stages of the game (1st person with only 3rd person persectives when conversing or battles, or ''story point'' areas)? Could that make things easier?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 03:30:21 PM by TheReturnofDMD »

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2010, 03:32:16 PM »
How would it be any different than the ability to switch in first person and 3rd person that's already in the game? The only difference you'd be locking out the third person viewpoint for most of the game :p...

The released game has portions that automatically switch to 3rd person if you are in 1st person mode, for cutscenes and the like.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 03:34:14 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2010, 03:37:12 PM »
How would it be any different than the ability to switch in first person and 3rd person that's already in the game? The only difference you'd be locking out the third person viewpoint for most of the game :p...

The released game has portions that automatically switch to 3rd person if you are in 1st person mode, for cutscenes and the like.

It would be different in that you wouldn't be allowed to toggle at will from 1st to 3rd or vice versa as you do in the release version. You'd only see through Connor's eyes, except for conversations and the like. The key difference here being in MoE you were able to toggle at will through the two modes.

This would make MoE a primarily 1st person game, whereas the released version is both. 

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2010, 04:15:45 PM »
That really wouldn't have much of an effect on difficulty programming in the engine (as long as you are working with an engine that can mimic 1996 engine technology), really.

You'd probably have people complaining that it didn't feel like a King's Quest game... King's Quest isn't Myst 3-D, Azrael's Tear or a Metroid Prime. Some people prefer having Third Person view points (like the earlier KQ).

I think Sierra had a valid reason for giving the player the option of how they want to play the game, giving them the best of both worlds. Removing that feature wouldn't really be an "improvement".
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 04:20:17 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2010, 04:19:10 PM »
That really wouldn't have much of an effect on difficulty programming in the engine (as long as you are working with an engine that can mimic 1996 engine technology), really.

You'd probably have people complaining that it didn't feel like a King's Quest game... King's Quest isn't Myst 3-D, Azrael's Tear or a Metroid Prime. Some people prefer having Third Person view points (like the earlier KQ).

True, but you'll always have people who complain no matter what you do.

Offline Baggins

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Re: Remaking MoE
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2010, 04:20:54 PM »
It still wouldn't be an "improvement" to the game. You need to think about features that are true improvements, not downgrades.

You seriously need to think ideas that "improve", not ideas that are inferior.

Now something that might be interesting if you added in a few first-person cinematic scenes where it zooms into Connor's POV, and the camera takes over, and has connor look at certain details. Like for example maybe a survival horror type cutscene, where he's being stalked. It puts you into his perspective to make it more personal. Like he hears a sound, starts looking left, then right, then behind him, before something jumps at him from the shadows. Before giving the player control to switch back into 3rd or remain in first person.

That's a good use of first person for cinematic affect. Plus you can also use mandatory 3rd person for cinematic effect as well.(like in the original version).

You could also have mandatory first person viewpoints where the game takes over and has Connor look at something important, and then comments on it. Like an internal hint system of a sort. Not enough to give away a puzzle or important element, but would nudge a player in the right direction. Like first instance, the start of the game. Many players walk past Dante, not even seeing him on the fence. Well what if the first thing the game does, is zoom into Connor's point of view, automatically turns him to the fence, and then connor says, "What's this?". To which point you get control again. Then can click on the bird, then as the bird starts to fly away, it could zoom back into Connor POV, and have him say, "Wither does he fly?" Then a zoom in the bird flying towards the direction of the lake. So the player knows it hast to follow the bird, and has a better idea which direction the bird flies.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 04:32:38 PM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg
 

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