Author Topic: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?  (Read 7810 times)

TheReturnofDMD

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The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« on: August 04, 2010, 05:00:52 PM »
I was thinking (and perhaps Deloria and others could help):

Since Graham is the father of the King of the Green Isles, couldn't that technically make the Green Isles a territory of Daventry or have some sort of dominion over them. After all, his heirs (through Alexander) will be the future Kings or Queens of the Green Isles.

Also, if Rosella married Edgar, Prince of Etheria, wouldn't that give her some prestige or power or title in Etheria?

Offline Baggins

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2010, 05:03:30 PM »
It would actually depend on if Alexander becomes king of Daventry.

Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

TheReturnofDMD

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2010, 05:08:33 PM »
It would actually depend on if Alexander becomes king of Daventry.



Than it would be sort of a Holy Roman Empire set up--Where the King was King of Spain and Germany, or something like that.

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2010, 05:13:25 PM »
Something like that ya.

Graham has no direct not claim to the kingdom, not unless his son gives the Green Isles to him or Graham conquers the kingdom :p...

However, I don't know the situation Roberta intended, if she meant Alexander to be ruling monarch, or if Cassima has greater power in the kingdom, or if its a joint rule. If Cassima is the greater ruler, she would have to decide.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline darthkiwi

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2010, 05:34:56 PM »
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Than it would be sort of a Holy Roman Empire set up--Where the King was King of Spain and Germany, or something like that.
You're referring to The Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. Charles inherited the Netherlands (basically modern-day Holland) first, then (when his father died) inherited the kingdoms of Aragon and Castille (which together make up modern Spain). Shortly afterwards he was elected Holy Roman Emperor (ie. he basically got Germany); although this was an elected position, I think there were only about seven electors. From wikipedia:

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The Holy Roman Empire was in theory an elective monarchy, but from the 15th century onwards the electors often merely formalised what was a dynastic succession within the Austrian House of Habsburg, with the title usually passing to the eldest surviving son of the deceased Emperor.

So, yeah, he basically inherited half of Europe. So, yes, if one individual does inherit several thrones then those kingdoms will usually be ruled by that person. This was true of Charles. It was also true of the English and Scottish thrones: in 1603 Queen Elizabeth I died, and the throne passed to James VI of Scotland (due to a marriage made between the Tudor and Scottish households about 100 years previously). This is why England and Scotland now form one country; if it weren't for that particular inheritance, it's quite possible they would be separate nation-states today.

On the other hand, it is not always a matter of blind succession. Mary I (the first woman to rule England in centuries) married Philip II of Spain because, if England was to remain stable, she would need an heir to reign after her. However, the English people were so concerned that their country would become a satellite state to a foreign power that they severely restricted Philip's powers: he was to be King in name only. As a result, Philip did not inherit the English throne when Mary died childless.

In this case, Graham is King of Daventry, Alexander is King of the Green Isles and Rosella is married to a prince of Etheria. (Is that last one right? Edgar is the son of the rulers of Etheria, correct?)

So if Graham dies and we assume Daventry follows the English Medieval form of inheritance, Alexander would inherit the throne of Daventry. He and Cassima would therefore be rulers of both Daventry and the Green Isles. But, at this point, Graham is still alive and the Green Isles are therefore not subject to Daventry (though they would naturally get on well diplomatically). If Alexander were to then die, all his realms would pass to his heir - so his son, if he had one - but I suppose that if he and Cassima had no child then things would get rather messy. I suppose Daventry would become Rosella's, but she has no real claim on the Green Isles; I imagine it would pass to whichever male is next in line to the throne in the Green Isles royal family tree. (I don't think it would remain under Cassima's rule, since female monarchs in the middle ages were incredibly rare in England; if the King died and left a Queen then the Queen was just given and income and told to move out and make way for the new monarch.)

On Rosella's side of things, I don't think she and Edgar have much political weight as yet, although if Edgar is the heir apparent of Etheria then I suppose his parents would try to give him some political experience before he took the throne, and would bear in mind that he would one day succeed them. If Oberon and Titania were to die or abdicate then I suppose the situation would parallel that of Alexander's family in the Green Isles, except that any claims made through Rosella would be shaky, since she's a woman.

Bear in mind, of course, that this was not completely cut and dried in Medieval England. Henry VII's claim to the throne was actually made through a woman. After Henry V died, Henry's wife (Catherine de Valois) remarried; this union produced the father of Henry VII. So Henry's claim was that his grandmother had been married to the King of England; this wasn't the best of claims, since this meant he actually had no royal blood in him whatsoever, but with a) lots of soldiers and b) a marriage to Elizabeth of York he managed to carry it off. So if there was ever civil war in Daventry, this would all become relative  ;)

So, to sum up, I think Daventry and the Green Isles would end up (eventually) owned by Alexander and Cassima, and both kingdoms would pass to their heirs forever. Etheria would be ruled by Edgar and Rosella, and would pass to their heirs forever. However, at this point they are trhee distinct nations whose rule does not coincide. If Graham wanted, for example, to give the crown of Daventry to some deserving young knight, then that would be perfectly within his power (Alexander would have no say) and would ensure that Daventry continued to remain a kingdom separate from the Green Isles.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 05:41:31 PM by darthkiwi »
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Offline Baggins

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2010, 05:46:54 PM »
Point of note that Oberon and Titania are near immortal :p..., that's going to be a very long time. Unless they choose to abdicate.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2010, 06:13:25 AM »
In theory--we've been given no indication in the games so far if Titania and Oberon here are immortal fairies or not.

But we've also seen that Graham is open to his daughter inheriting Daventry's throne: at the end of KQ3/beginning of KQ4, he tossed out the hat to determine his heir from between Alexander and Rosella.

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Offline Baggins

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2010, 06:25:54 AM »
Actually there are several places in KQ7, where they talk about how fairies apparently have a extreme life span. Titania's aunts and uncles have been working the fates of universe and giving people dreams  (Lady Mab) for millenia.

Also we are given a clue that Malicia started her civil war with Etheria, and resulted in most people living in Ooga Booga's deaths (ultimately got her banished) was about 130 years before the game (Mort Cadaver nods to that actually).

Beyond that, we are given more details about fairy life spans in KQ4 (though you may argue that Genesta and Lolotte represent a different race of fairies), though technically Lolotte is same race as Titania, et al.'

Guidebook to the Land of the Green Isles also tells a few details about fairies, IIRC.

I'm not even bringing up what was said in the Companion on the issue, LOL.
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline Allronix

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2010, 06:34:40 AM »
I figured that Alex relinquished his claim to the Daventry throne to rule the Green Isles. He pretty much asked Graham's permission during the wedding to do so, and Graham blessed it.

"I have no doubt you'll make a good king, though sorely missed in Daventry."

As to whether Alex or Cassie has a "greater share?" They're pretty egalitarian for a fantasy setting, so I'm guessing a William and Mary or Ferdinand and Isabella shared reign, on paper and in practice.

Honestly, while fanon tends to go with Rosella moving to Etheria? I'm just as inclined to see Edgar pull the same route as his brother in law and move to Rosella's kingdom. Edgar's a pretty laid-back guy, and he's been in an arguably worse position than Alex was, as I can't see Lolotte being a terribly nice "mother." And no sooner than he's back home, than Aunt Malicia kidnaps him and puts the magical whammy on him. So, on Eddie and Rose? Even if Edgar has power in theory, he's probably going to defer to Rosella on most things.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 06:36:54 AM by Allronix »
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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2010, 07:31:42 AM »
Are they Titania's aunts and uncles, though? I know the Fates call the Dreamweaver their nephew, and he refers to Mab as his sister, but I don't recall that in the game there's a familial connection between that group and Edgar's family. The Fates and their relatives are obviously going to be long-lived, and you could probably call them gods--they certainly are extremely powerful.

I definitely don't recall any reference to it having been 130 years in the game, or anything that concrete, though. And the people in Ooga Booga seemed to be their own race, to me, not fairies.

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Offline Baggins

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2010, 07:34:55 AM »
Dreamweaver is Titania and Malicia's brother or uncle IIRC(I forget the exact information). The fates mention that fact, IIRC. Although they more specifically state that he is Malicia's brother/uncle (which by extension means that he is Titania would be related as well). Albeit maybe its something that originated out of the "Legends and History" by Lorelei Shannon (in KQ7 Hintbook) and wasn't mentioned specifically in the game.

Oberon is a different household.

On a related note weren't Oberon and Titania gods or near-gods in Mid Summers Night's Dream? I know they were fairies in that as well at least.

Other fairy nobles like Ceres and Attis are also gods. Ceres is Mother Nature herself.
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I definitely don't recall any reference to it having been 130 years in the game, or anything that concrete, though. And the people in Ooga Booga seemed to be their own race, to me, not fairies.
It's definitely said in the game, you gotta question Mort Cadaver a few times though. He talks about how the Ghoul Kids first became undead.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 07:49:17 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2010, 07:50:03 AM »
In Midsummer, yes, they are, and I realize that's the source material for their characters; I'm just saying that in the game itself, it never said one way or the other.

Hm...it might be a 'watch/listen to a KQ7 let's play' kinda day now...I'm curious if they did say something that connects Titania & Malicia to the Fates. :)

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Offline Baggins

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2010, 07:56:09 AM »
Well it just doesn't make sense to me that since most of the other Fairy Nobles race are "gods" that Oberon and Titania wouldn't be either. Especially since they seem to also be based a bit on Zeus and Hera, :p... I think there are several points in the game that other characters treat the as gods as well :p...

Quote
Honestly, while fanon tends to go with Rosella moving to Etheria? I'm just as inclined to see Edgar pull the same route as his brother in law and move to Rosella's kingdom. Edgar's a pretty laid-back guy, and he's been in an arguably worse position than Alex was, as I can't see Lolotte being a terribly nice "mother." And no sooner than he's back home, than Aunt Malicia kidnaps him and puts the magical whammy on him. So, on Eddie and Rose? Even if Edgar has power in theory, he's probably going to defer to Rosella on most things.
That actually seems to be the route Peter Spear was taking. In that Rosella spends most of her time in Daventry, only occasionally visits Etheria. Last we saw Rosella was living back in Daventry (and Derek Karlavaegen didn't even know she had left).

Apparently some of the early KQ VIII-9 ideas involved Connor finding Rosella's stonified body in the Castle Daventry during Mask of Eternity, and later possibly forming a love triangle, with her being in love with both Connor and Edgar.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 08:41:09 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline KatieHal

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2010, 09:36:03 AM »
After listening to the Dreamweaver's speech just now, he does refer to Titania as his sister ("My precious sister is missing?"). For whatever reason, I'd always assumed he was talking about Mab as his sister there, because he refers to Mab by name in the line after that ("You must go to Mab immediately."), and never referred to Titania by name the whole time. Doing that would've made the whole thing less confusing, but what can you do.

So yeah, I had always assumed that Mab, Dreamweaver, and the Fates were all separate entirely from Titania and Oberon, they just happened to live in their realm. It certainly gives you the impression Titania must've really been the black sheep less talented one in the family though, doesn't it? She can't find or protect her kid not once but twice... :P

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Offline Baggins

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2010, 09:52:08 AM »
Well the first time they were 'trying fly around the world' looking for they didn't realize he had been taken to another world, before giving up and returning to Etheria,  :suffer:

The second time, they again took off around the world, deciding they wouldn't come back until they found him :p, they didn't realize he was living underground right under their noses...

But let's face if the Fates are so talented why weren't they able to divine where he had been taken the first time :p...
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

Offline KatieHal

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2010, 10:02:50 AM »
It just seems like they'd have been able to do something. I mean, Graham's just human and the Magic Mirror stopped working while Alex was gone. These guys are super-powerful and they couldn't find him at all?

The Fates, I dunno. They seem to be focused and concerned with other things--they are the Fates after all. They're pretty busy and above minutiae of mortal(ish) matters. I get the feeling they were only concerned with the matters in Etheria with the volcano because it would've destroyed the harp portal to where they live.

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Offline Baggins

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2010, 10:11:37 AM »
...some relatives, I woudn't be inviting them to dinner :p...
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 10:23:55 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2010, 10:44:39 AM »
... I get the feeling they were only concerned with the matters in Etheria with the volcano because it would've destroyed the harp portal to where they live.

I think that would only make them lonely (something they don't seem to mind too much themselves). I think that really is just a portal to where they are... I don't think they're living inside it in some sense. :P

...It certainly gives you the impression Titania must've really been the black sheep less talented one in the family though, doesn't it? She can't find or protect her kid not once but twice... :P

XD Thrice now. She and Oberon were present at the wedding. They didn't lift a fairy magic-empowered finger when the stranger popped in. :P Guess they aren't quick on their feet. :P

Now, Rosella and Alexander are asleep. Dreaming some magical strangeness... I wonder who could help with that... certainly not Edgar's uncle, Titania's brother, the Dreamweaver, who gave Valanice the means to enter the world of dreams. :P

I don't know what happened to tick them off, but clearly, Titania's extended family doesn't care much for Edgar, his well-being, his tendency to periodically get kidnapped and develop green skin (but then that's a family condition anyway), or his fiancee and her well-being as well. ::)

So yeah, I had always assumed that Mab, Dreamweaver, and the Fates were all separate entirely from Titania and Oberon, ...

I think Mab, Ceres, and Attis are separate entities (IIRC, they are sort of rulers of their own realms within Etheria/Eldritch (I was never too clear on that duality of terms): Attis and Ceres- the Bountiful Woods, Mab- dreamworld). ...though still, with all the time that Graham is spending running around following the will of Mother Nature via the list of ingredients... he could just go ask her (Ceres) directly... it'd only take a second really (thank you inter-world time distortion effects) and Edgar could help immensely (which he'd enjoy instead of being left in the Castle of the Crown).
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Offline Baggins

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2010, 11:05:45 AM »
Ok, so I'm a little confused here. Is Mab another sister or she separate fairy?

I think its pretty clear like you said that Valanice states that "Titania is missing, and Mab is cursed", and WOD, replies that "My sister is missing, you must go to Mab right away", that she was talking about Titania "missing", and that Valanice needed to save Mab.

Is there another reference that connects Mab to the fates or WOD?

I think the real history was that Edgar isn't really Obertitan's son... they kidnapped him from someone else, :p... This might explain why all of his "relatives" could care less if he gets kidnapped by someone else, as he was never related to them. It might also explain why he's said to be "human" in KQ4 related material.

The secret is who controls Edgar will rule the world. He is the living embodiment of Macguffin. Rosella will now be able to rule the universe (well she could if she wasn't in a coma). Shadrack was trying to prevent that from happening.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 11:14:47 AM by Baggins »
Well, ya, King's Quest is on Earth. Daventry is very old city from a long time ago. It's in ruins now and people aren't quite sure exactly where it used to be. There are some archaeologists searching through the ruins, they think they know its Daventry. But its somewhere on Earth."-Roberta Williams http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/File:Daventryisearth.ogg

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Re: The Green Isles: A territory of Daventry now?
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2010, 11:32:50 AM »
No, I've just got the idea stuck in my head that WOD and Mab are siblings now. Hey, I played the game about 12 years ago and I've been thinking that was the deal the whole time--gonna take a while to get it to stick that I was just hearing the sentence wrong. :P

Gah. What a mess. They could've done that with far fewer god-like beings, IMO!

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