Plot conflict

[scintilla77]

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Also, the story about Persephone says Nightshade ONLY blooms when she is with the Lord of the Dead....

When Alexander comes to the Green Isles, and Land of the Dead, nightshade is in bloom. Where is Persephone? I didn't notice her in the Realm of the Dead...

Also, the Arch Druid in KQ6 tells Alex that the Lord of the Dead was once a mortal, thousands of years ago, and that he was left "mateless; robbed of sleep, robbed of movement, robbed of companionship."

I'm sorry for jumping in, but since you're talking about...well, ^that ^, I just wanted to ask something related to it that i just thought of:

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Persephone's story says that in the spring and summer, persephone is with her mother. I know that in the myths this story is based on, Persephone's mother is Ceres. Ceres shows up in KQ7 (where is it obviously spring or summer), but Persephone is never seen or even hinted at. How does this work with the TSL story?

[Cez]

I'll let Katie take care of the Persephone thing, since she's the expert in that story

I know at points we did talk of Ceres from KQ7. But I'll let her handle it, since she finalized that particular story.

[Fierce Deity]

What about Mananan killing Alexander if he stepped out of line, and the implicit plotline of him killing Alexander anyway once he turned 18?

Who says that was a guarantee?  The chickens?

Who are you going to trust? A dark wizard who is infamous for killing all of his slaves, or the chickens?  

I'll let Katie take care of the Persephone thing, since she's the expert in that story

I know at points we did talk of Ceres from KQ7. But I'll let her handle it, since she finalized that particular story.

Would it be too late to tie-in a KQ7 reference? I find this particular element of the story to not stand out as a crucial piece of the story, but for those who'd rather argue semantics, it may be wise, if not advised.

I found the main story to be an interesting twist. All of the speculation we have considered in the past few months have accumulated as a typical foresight. I wasn't that surprised by what was revealed, but I also wasn't disappointed. That ending really got me on the edge.  

[koko_99_2001]

What about Mananan killing Alexander if he stepped out of line, and the implicit plotline of him killing Alexander anyway once he turned 18?

Who says that was a guarantee?  The chickens?

Who are you going to trust? A dark wizard who is infamous for killing all of his slaves, or the chickens? 

I think it's a toss-up

[KatieHal]

The chickens. Always trust the chickens! ...wait, that's not right...

I'm just gonna shove everything under a spoiler cut here....

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

The Lord of the Dead pictured in the book is the one from KQ6, yes. We didn't see Persephone there with him, but there wasn't exactly a throne for the queen there next to him was there? Think about it--some guy has you kidnapped, tricks you into marrying him, and then even when you get rescued you have to stay with him for half the year in his creepy undead world? Yeah, I'd stay as far away from his for as often as possible too while I was forced to stay there! And since he's bound to that chair, it's not like he can do much about it.

As for Persephone's mother, etc, this is one of the tricky parts of there being a number of belief systems shown in the KQ world (and that dates back to long before our game!). You have people in different parts of the world (or worlds, if you go in for that theory) who believe different things but often use the same name for them. Who the Druids on the Isle of Mist refer to as Mother Nature may not be Ceres from KQ7. 

That said, nothing in either KQ7 nor in the story about Nightshade says that Persephone wasn't Ceres' daughter; we never heard in KQ7 anything about her children, or possible lack thereof.

The Alex question I think we covered clearly enough. I hope this helps with the Persephone/Ceres question!

[Baggins]

Correct me if I'm wrong I think KQ6 talks about "Mother Earth", while KQ7 refers to Ceres as "Mother Nature".

[TheReturnofDMD]

Correct me if I'm wrong I think KQ6 talks about "Mother Earth", while KQ7 refers to Ceres as "Mother Nature".

I don't recall any references to Earth in that religious sense in KQ6.
The only religious mentions I heard were Alex saying 'Thank the Heavens' and the Fates being mentioned.

[Baggins]

DMD, its in the Guidebook to Land of the Green Isles.

[KatieHal]

I don't know off the top of my head, but in TSL, they refer to her/it by a few different titles, but you'll see that in a later episode.

[liggy002]

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Also, bear in mind that Mordack was supposedly going to feed Alexander and family to Manannan the cat.  Mannanan, by that time, knew about the importance of Alexander as one of the children of prophecy and therefore would not kill him.  Mordack likely also knew of the plot to keep Alexander alive.  It must have been an idle threat in King's Quest 5 because Mannanan would certainly not eat Alexander because of the grand plot of the Black Cloak Society.

[Damar]

Revenge is a powerful motivator.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Mordack never seemed like the most levelheaded guy and at that point Manannan was a cat, and likely his affiliation with the Black Cloaks wasn't foremost on his mind.  You could even make the argument that Mordack and Manannan had essentially gone rogue when it came to the actions in KQ5.  Ironically, Graham taking Mordack out may have been doing the leader of the Black Cloaks a favor by removing a loose cannon.  Also, it's possible that while Shadrack or whoever wants Alex alive, Alex could still be expendable.  If they can get what they want from Rosella as well as Alexander, then the death of one twin, while potentially a problem, wouldn't totally derail the plan because they still have the other.  Also, while Manannan is really playing up the "I had plans for you, Alexander" thing, I think it's possible that he's messing with Alexander's head as well.  Maybe it would have been good to keep Alex alive, but whether Manannan really planned on following those orders (particularly if Alex is technically expendable as long as they have Rosella) is debatable.

[KatieHal]

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Also, you gotta wonder--Mordack had them at his mercy for quite some time (in our timeline, quite a while), and he made these great threats, but he never carried out any of them. Heck, he didn't seem to ever actually even hurt any of the Royal Family members that he had, just shrink them and threaten them!

[liggy002]

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Yep, my point exactly.   I don't think Mordack intended to kill the Royal family.  Things are not always at they seem.  One thing that would come to mind and this is just a guess:  If Alexander is capable of making dreams come to life, I would think that Manannan would be after a way to use him to bring Mordack back to life.  Heck, if my brother was dead and there was a way to bring him back I would look into it - well, maybe not, but Manannan seems like the kind of guy that would.

[scintilla77]

The Alex question I think we covered clearly enough. I hope this helps with the Persephone/Ceres question!

I'm sorry, but I think I'm even more confused now. It seems almost like you're changing facts from the official games to fit your story and coming up with really complex reasons why your story and the older games don't quite match up. It's more like coming up with theories about how the story could work instead of actually saying how the story works...

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

I mean, having Ceres and Persephone exist in the same universe and yet have Persephone not be her daughter is like having Cupid and Venus exist in the same universe, yet not making Cupid Venus' son. I'd think Graham would be really puzzled by Persephone's story, since he probably knows his son saw The Lord of the Dead and his wife saw Ceres, but neither of them saw Persephone. :/

 
BTW, something else that I just thought of:

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

The story about Persephone says that the nightshade stole her immortality. Why did the Lord of the Dead steal her immortality if he was immortal himself and wanted a wife? Did he want to see her grow old and die? Also, if the Lord of the Dead has been around for thousands of years and Persephone's immortality was stolen, how could she still be alive in the present time?

[Fierce Deity]

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

I mean, having Ceres and Persephone exist in the same universe and yet have Persephone not be her daughter is like having Cupid and Venus exist in the same universe, yet not making Cupid Venus' son. I'd think Graham would be really puzzled by Persephone's story, since he probably knows his son saw The Lord of the Dead and his wife saw Ceres, but neither of them saw Persephone. :/

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Like Katie had said before, there's no telling that Persephone wasn't in the Underworld when Alex was there. She was a prisoner after all, she probably wouldn't want to be standing next to her captor for all eternity. Maybe she was being withheld in a cell of some sort. She didn't willingly marry the Lord of the Dead, she was kidnapped.

BTW, something else that I just thought of:

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

The story about Persephone says that the nightshade stole her immortality. Why did the Lord of the Dead steal her immortality if he was immortal himself and wanted a wife? Did he want to see her grow old and die? Also, if the Lord of the Dead has been around for thousands of years and Persephone's immortality was stolen, how could she still be alive in the present time?

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

The Lord of the Dead didn't steal her immortality for himself. He stole it so that she could be killed and taken into the Underworld. You can't go to the afterlife if you're not dead. So if she was immortal in the land of the living, the Lord of the Dead would have needed her to become mortal, so he could kill her, and then keep her in the Underworld. Once Persephone was brought to the Underworld, she became "immortal" again, in the sense that she would be living in the afterlife. You can't die, once you're already dead. So, she isn't "alive" in the present time, she's dead in the present time, but can travel between Ceres and the Lord of the Underworld when the seasons change.

Ahh, ancient mythology. Gotta love it. 

[scintilla77]

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Like Katie had said before, there's no telling that Persephone wasn't in the Underworld when Alex was there. She was a prisoner after all, she probably wouldn't want to be standing next to her captor for all eternity. Maybe she was being withheld in a cell of some sort. She didn't willingly marry the Lord of the Dead, she was kidnapped.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

If Persephone really was in the Underworld but locked in a cell or hiding somewhere in the Land of the Dead, I think it would make a lot more sense if the story made it clear that she often stayed away from her husband instead of leaving a plothole like this unpatched. Of course, that's just imho.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

The Lord of the Dead didn't steal her immortality for himself. He stole it so that she could be killed and taken into the Underworld. You can't go to the afterlife if you're not dead.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

But the story itself says that the lord of the dead made the nightshade so that it wouldn't kill Persephone, but just "take her breath away". I don't think Persephone is killed at all in the original myth. And I never said that the lord of the dead wanted to steal her immortality for himself either. Besides, Alexander went to the afterlife (sort of), and he wasn't dead.

[Fierce Deity]

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

If Persephone really was in the Underworld but locked in a cell or hiding somewhere in the Land of the Dead, I think it would make a lot more sense if the story made it clear that she often stayed away from her husband instead of leaving a plothole like this unpatched. Of course, that's just imho.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

It's not really a plothole, it's a part of the myth. Persephone never really loved Hades. Hades kidnapped her against her will, and physically made her his bride. I can fathom a scenario where Persephone would want to stray from Hades' presence.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

But the story itself says that the lord of the dead made the nightshade so that it wouldn't kill Persephone, but just "take her breath away". I don't think Persephone is killed at all in the original myth. And I never said that the lord of the dead wanted to steal her immortality for himself either. Besides, Alexander went to the afterlife (sort of), and he wasn't dead.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

She was never killed as in "cease to exist", she was killed and was sent to Hades. Also, Nightshade is supposed to represent the Pomegranate seeds from the original myth. The Pomegranate seeds caused Persephone to be sent to Hades in the first place. I also know that you didn't say that the Lord of the Dead stole her immortality for himself. You said:

The story about Persephone says that the nightshade stole her immortality. Why did the Lord of the Dead steal her immortality if he was immortal himself and wanted a wife?

I was emphasizing what you said, not disagreeing.

Alexander had to find a way to enter the Underworld as a living being, hence why he took Caliphim and Allaria's pass. He tricked the guards into letting him in, but normally, living beings can't enter the Underworld. That's why Persephone was killed and brought to the Underworld. She was a prisoner, she didn't want to enter the Underworld like Alexander did.
 

[KatieHal]

I think it just complicated as I was kind of talking about two different things at the same time, really.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

Whether Persephone in the myth is Ceres' daughter isn't really relevant to that story, or to the plot--it's certainly not a plothole. Sure then, she's Ceres' daughter--nothing says she isn't.

[scintilla77]

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

She was never killed as in "cease to exist", she was killed and was sent to Hades. Also, Nightshade is supposed to represent the Pomegranate seeds from the original myth. The Pomegranate seeds caused Persephone to be sent to Hades in the first place. I also know that you didn't say that the Lord of the Dead stole her immortality for himself. You said:

The story about Persephone says that the nightshade stole her immortality. Why did the Lord of the Dead steal her immortality if he was immortal himself and wanted a wife?

I was emphasizing what you said, not disagreeing.

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

I don't think we're understanding each other. I was asking why the Lord of the Dead, who was immortal, would take Persephone's immortality away, making her (I'd assume) mortal. And again, unless making someone who is immortal mortal means "killing" them, she wasn't killed in any sense of the word in the story in TSL.

And I actually just remembered something from KQ6. I don't know how I forgot it, but right before the "robbed of sleep, robbed of movement, robbed of companionship" line, The Arch Druid says this about the Lord of the Dead (I added the bold part):

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

"Immortal he is, and mateless."

...??

[wilco64256]

Well there certainly is a big difference between

Spoiler (mouse over to reveal):

having a mate and a prisoner.