The Star Trek thread

[GoneTooLong]

WE'VE SEEN DELTA VEGA AND THAT'S NOT DELTA VEGA!

    IT'S A FAKE!

[theroachyjay]

I wanted to like it because it is a new take and it was exciting and everything, but I just couldn't get past the fact that it changed everything I grew up with.  Everything, from Next Generation, to DS9, to Voyager, it effectively nullified by childhood, adolescence, and adulthood.  I really didn't take it well.  I understand the argument that to keep Star Trek relevant and bring in a new audience, they need to reboot it.  But frankly, I don't think that's necessary.  Why does it need a new audience?  Why does it need to change?  Why can't it be what it is?  Either Star Trek stands on its own or it doesn't.  When you watch good TNG and DS9, it doesn't seem dated.  It's good tv.  Changing the entire universe to appeal to the younger set is selling the series short.  Plus, Star Trek has always been more about character development and story, not about big explosions and crazy action.  Star Trek II Wrath of Khan is still awesome, and it's not because of the circa 1980's starship models going boom, it's because of the interplay between Khan and Kirk and the timeless story of obsession, a-la Moby d***.  Good tv and good movies stand.  They don't need to be updated and if the "new generation" can't be bothered to go back and get into the show as it is, then why should we reboot it for them?  I really sound like a grumpy old man, and that's not my intention.  Ah well.

I feel the same way.  The primeline had so much room to expand upon.  They didn't have to erase everything just to appeal to a new audience.  When I went to see it on opening night, I was really pumped.  I'd bought all the countdown comics and was ready for the next installment of Trek.  When Vulcan disappeared, I was so confident they'd fix it.  And then they didn't.  And the movie ended and I was sitting there, thinking: "What have they done?"

The fact that it was an action movie didn't really bother me too much.  I mean, sure, I'd have preferred to have anothe First Contact or Wrath of Khan, but the movie industry can't really make as much money from things that don't have explosion after explosion anymore.

Mmy friends were all raving about how 'cerebral and deep' Inception was... And I've seen it, and enjoyed it, but I wouldn't call it cerebral.  It was three action movies packed into one with an interesting premise.

But as far as making an action-based reboot, they didn't have to destroy the universe.  Enterprise was more action-based than the other series, and it didn't ruin anything.  It contributed and helped tie up some loose ends between the other shows and movies.

They could have easily made a film about the Cardassian/Bajoran war if they wanted action.  Or follow a Klingon crew.  No one said they had to stick to the Federation or even the same characters.  So, the statements that "There was no more room to work with" is the lamest excuse ever.  Memory Alpha, the Star Trek wiki, had become a mess the last time I visited it.  A bunch of the maojr pages had been partitioned between the "Prime Universe" and the "JJ-Altered Universe" - It was really difficult to follow.  And that was just ONE movie.

The new movie, while I enjoyed it as a space action film, did make a serious mess and became an ulcer in what was otherwise a well-crafted universe.

I loved the cast.

[snabbott]

It's somewhat comforting to know that I'm not the only one who was traumatized by the reboot. I actually went looking on the internet to see if other people were as disturbed by it as I was, but it seemed like most people were fine with it.

[Lambonius]

I would DEFINITELY go see a movie that was all about Klingons.

[kindofdoon]

Related, funny: http://www.theonion.com/video/trekkies-bash-new-star-trek-film-as-fun-watchable,14333/

(note: heavy satire)

[Rick_Florez]

I knew there were rumors that the movie would reboot the series going in but i didn't think it would go as far as it did originally.  I had followed the production of the movie for quite a while and many times they promised an origin story more than a reboot.  Unfortunately that was not the case.  When I left the theater I felt like they had just killed off Picard, Sisko, and everything else.

My room mate was like hey its a parallel time line and I was liked dude that's not how temporal mechanics work in Star Trek.  Its been established multiple times that once you change the past the future vanishes.

Ultimately I rationalized the new movie by telling myself that Spock not only went back in time but also traveled to an alternate reality which would have been different from the prime universe anyway.  This idea was explored in Star Trek Enterprise during the Mirror Universe episodes where the Terran Empire in the 22nd century got their hands on the Defiant from the original Star Trek series.  Same idea works here.

When Star Trek Online decided to continue with the Prime Universe and say that Spock just vanished that just solidified my theory at least in my eyes.

Once my brain finally rationalized it all I was able to rewatch the new movie and actually like it.  There are a lot of nice details there and an enjoyable experience once you know it doesn't destroy everything you grew up with  

[snabbott]

When I left the theater I felt like they had just killed off Picard, Sisko, and everything else.

This.

My room mate was like hey its a parallel time line and I was liked dude that's not how temporal mechanics work in Star Trek.  Its been established multiple times that once you change the past the future vanishes.

Also, I think the changing timelines thing is kind of overused.

[Damar]

I would DEFINITELY go see a movie that was all about Klingons.

Absolutely!  It wasn't until the conflict in DS9 when the Klingons went crazy that I recognized how vicious the Klingons really were.  All that time they'd been an ally (at least all the time that we'd seen them as a warrior culture.  In TOS they were just treacherous baddies) and suddenly we saw these honorable warriors just go crazy on the Federation.  The episodes during that conflict, to me, showed the Klingons as more dangerous than even the Borg.  They just wouldn't stop fighting and they thought they were giving you an honorable death by cutting you down in glorious battle.  And don't get me started on Martok, who is hands down one of the greatest characters in the history of Star Trek!  I could watch an entire movie centering on Martok!  The whole of the plot could be him being sized for a new robe, and I'd be chanting his name, ready to follow him to Sto Vo Kor!

And, GoneTooLong, as unintentionally funny as that one scene was, In the Pale Moonlight is still, for my money, the best episode of Star Trek ever, throughout all the series.  Watching Garak slowly take Sisko's morality, guiding him towards the darkness was just chilling.  And Sisko's monologue at the end, "Because I can live with it.  I can live with it..." is just chilling.  Just a brilliant episode.  Plus any episode with Garak is automatically a great episode.

[GoneTooLong]

And, GoneTooLong, as unintentionally funny as that one scene was, In the Pale Moonlight is still, for my money, the best episode of Star Trek ever, throughout all the series.  Watching Garak slowly take Sisko's morality, guiding him towards the darkness was just chilling.  And Sisko's monologue at the end, "Because I can live with it.  I can live with it..." is just chilling.  Just a brilliant episode.  Plus any episode with Garak is automatically a great episode.

I couldn't agree more. In the Pale Moonlight is absolutely my favourite Trek episode ever for all the reasons you just mentioned.

[crayauchtin]

I had a whole family of customers today who all looked like Klingons, minus the ridges.

(And by that I mean MASSIVE foreheads, tons of wild crazy long hair and piercings. )

[Damar]

Ooh, where do you work that you have people that look like Klingons?  I swear I've had to deal with people at work that were closer to Pakleds, but no Klingons.

[colin]

Oh I am a big Star Trek Fan I like all the TV series and Movies yes even the new Film. Deep Space Nine
is my favourite trek show. We here in New Zealand have an event called Armageddon Expo which is almost the only way we get to see scifi/fantasy guests  and get Autographs.  The next Auckland Expo has Deep Space Nines Actress Nana Visitor (Kira Nerys)  and the Doctor Who Guests which means I will be definitely going.

[waltzdancing]

You are so lucky colin! We never have events like that where I am. I once met the Doctor from Voyager at the X Prize celebration but that is as close to Star Trek I have come. 

[colin]

I am sorry to hear that waltzdancing. I thought that New Zealand was the least likely for meeting guests and getting autographs. We know that we are lucky with two expo's a year, but I was under the impression that other places in the world got these opportunities almost monthly.

[kindofdoon]

I just watched the new Star Trek movie, and it was excellent!

*ducks for cover*

[MusicallyInspired]

It was excellent.

[Damar]

So let's talk some Trek!  What are your picks for best episodes of the different series?  Anyone have any preferences or favorites?

[dark-daventry]

Oh no, you are so not the only one. I'm a huge Star Trek fan as well as DD, who will show up eventually.  Nice to meet you Damar! Let's boldy go where no forum has gone before. 

Better late than never, eh? Yes, I'm a  HUGE star trek fan. I own 23 seasons of it on DVD, various books as well as several iPhone apps for it. My personal favorite series is DS9. My favorite captain in all honesty is neither Picard nor Kirk, but in fact Sisko. The power in his voice! And yes, Damar is indeed a great character!

And I may be in the minority, but I liked the new movie. My favorite star trek movie is still First Contact (by a LONG way!) but the new movie wasn't bad. I'm just happy for more star trek. Now, I just want the show to come back. I've heard rumors that Jonathan Frakes wants to make a series out of the book series Titan, which I totally support. I love the borg too. And the Klingons. I just love Star Trek all around!

In defense of the movie, yes it did undo everything we know about Trek, but the other time line still exists. We just created an alternate one. Nothing wrong with that. I'd like to see both timelines develop frankly. I'd really like to see an entire series (or mini-series) take place in the "dark" timeline seen in just about every series. I love that timeline. We don't get many episodes with it, and I'd love for it to be expanded on. I'm a total Star Trek junkie... I think I have an unhealthy addiction to it...

[snabbott]

Oh - don't get me wrong. I thought the new movie was really well done. They did well at capturing the personalities of the characters with new actors - not an easy thing to do.

[Damar]

As much as I felt the movie was not true to Start Trek and fairly shallow (if entertaining) I will say one thing for it regarding its trekkieness: They got McCoy dead on.  I mean, that is exactly how I imagine a younger McCoy being.  When I first heard that Karl Urban was cast for McCoy, I was in shock.  How could they turn football linebacker-sized warrior Eomer to be a sarcastic, jaded, yet overly humanistic Dr. McCoy?  The whole character was just very well written and played.  For me, as much as the movie bugged me, McCoy was incredibly true to Star Trek.

Anyway, Dark Daventry, I am jealous of all the series you own!  I've never been able to justify paying the obscene prices they ask.  Actually, the only series I own on DVD is the Animated Series.  Oddly enough, for an obscure, retro entry into a cult series, it's actually very reasonably priced on Amazon (or at least it was when I bought it.)  It was definitely worth the money.  Some episodes are actually decent.  Others...well...let's not think about the others.  Then again, I don't like to think about The Muse, Let He Who is Without Sin, Day of Honor, or TNG's first season either, so...

Personally, as far as favorite series, I do have to go with TNG, and I always will.  There's just too much nostalgia for me.  And episodes like Chain of Command (THERE ARE...FOUR LIGHTS!), Birthright and so many others are still some of the best episodes of Star Trek.  And I'll never really know for sure how much episodes like Frame of Mind and Masks influenced by interest in abnormal psychology.  It was the show of my childhood.  Meanwhile, Star Trek is simply the show of my life.  It's always been around for nearly as long as I can remember until Enterprise went off the air when I was starting grad school.

That said though, stepping back from the nostalgia, I can freely admit that DS9 is the superior show.  I will always like TNG more, but DS9 did storytelling, action, writing, and characters better.  And they definitely had the best secondary characters in the history of Star Trek.  Damar, Dukat, Garak, Martok, and Weyoun are all some of the most well-written characters in the series, and they're all only recurring, not major!  In fact, when I watched DS9 on my computer again (I've got those episodes as well) I was shocked at how few episodes Martok was in, compared to what I had remembered.  And for my money, no one embodies the DS9 writers' ability to take a nobody character and build him up into a major player more than Damar (except of course O'Brien, but he did that in TNG first.)  And Damar is just evidence as to how good the writers were.  A lesser writer would have been content with Damar as a minor antagonist and given him the death he richly deserved at the end of Sacrifice of Angels.  The rules of episodic television demanded it, especially at the time the episode was done.  Damar not only did what he did, and got away, but he got a promotion!  And actually, he didn't even get away.  It's not like he was dodging phaser shots and narrowly escaped his fate.  He just killed an innocent and walked away, job well done, convinced in his own mind that he had done the right thing.  And then the writers actually made him a tortured, emasculated alcoholic and then wrote what is one of the greatest redemption stories ever!  By the end of the series, I had completely forgiven Damar and was ready for him to rule Cardassia!  And it all started with him as a one-line character in a Dukat/Kira episode!  And the writers did that often.  How many times did you find yourself liking Dukat even though he was a war criminal who, even at his most likable and charismatic, was still an obvious sociopathic narcissist?  And of course Garak, who was also a pure sociopath.  The guy was Dexter before Dexter was made, except even more high-functioning!  And Weyoun, who is just all slime and passive-aggression.  DS9 writers knew how to write some characters!

So I agree, DS9 is definitely the superior show, and it has what I believe is the best episodes of Start Trek (In the Pale Moonlight, Rocks and Shoals and Waltz.)  Just an incredible show.  And not to bring everything back around to the movie (it really doesn't bother me that much) but it just underlines my objection to the whole new action-packed timeline.  If the new generation can't appreciate Star Trek for shows like DS9 and those episodes, then they don't deserve their own Star Trek.  Yes, I know I sound like a grumpy old man, but so be it!  Anyway, DS9 rocks!