stupid dog Kings Quest 7

[Enchantermon]

I'd say the broken save game menu was the worst part of the chapter feature, if you consider the two related (as chapters and bookmarks kinda are).

In what way was it "broken"? It didn't feature individual save slots, that's true, but I would hardly consider that broken since there was no need for individual save slots. As you pointed out, there were no dead ends, and any time you died you had a Retry feature, so the saves were simply a way of holding your place in the game when you quit. There was no need for them to be expanded beyond what they were.

[shadyparadox]

I'd say the broken save game menu was the worst part of the chapter feature, if you consider the two related (as chapters and bookmarks kinda are).

In what way was it "broken"? It didn't feature individual save slots, that's true, but I would hardly consider that broken since there was no need for individual save slots. As you pointed out, there were no dead ends, and any time you died you had a Retry feature, so the saves were simply a way of holding your place in the game when you quit. There was no need for them to be expanded beyond what they were.

I guess it's more of a personal thing, but making those death reel videos was a bigger pain than it had to be. It would have been much nicer if I could restore earlier and later points in the game at will. As it was, I had to manually copy/paste different saved games to and from different folders to pull it off.

Edit: For gamers just trying to get through the game, I guess the biggest disadvantage would be that you can't go back and repeat prior discussions with crucial information if you want to hear them again. Granted, you may not have had a saved game right before it anyway even if that was an option, but when I play, I create new saves constantly when I can for that reason.

[Lambonius]

That was the purpose of doing the chapter system -- they needed a way to transition. And I think the chapter system does a fantastic job of doing just that.

   Sigh...apparently I needed to be more specific.  Breaking the game into chapters in and of itself is not problematic.  But allowing the player to choose to start the game from any chapter they want makes absolutely no sense from a design standpoint.  That's what I was talking about.

I guess it's more of a personal thing, but making those death reel videos was a bigger pain than it had to be. It would have been much nicer if I could restore earlier and later points in the game at will. As it was, I had to manually copy/paste different saved games to and from different folders to pull it off.

Edit: For gamers just trying to get through the game, I guess the biggest disadvantage would be that you can't go back and repeat prior discussions with crucial information if you want to hear them again. Granted, you may not have had a saved game right before it anyway even if that was an option, but when I play, I create new saves constantly when I can for that reason.

Exactly.  You guys are vastly oversimplifying the purpose of saved games.  Simply holding one's place in the game is only one single function.  Allowing for a full fledged save system like the older games would have vastly improved replayability, since it would have been easy to go back and re-experience specific moments if you so desired.

[snabbott]

I would agree that allowing you to start at any chapter is a poor compensation for not being able to keep multiple saved games. I tend to keep lots of saved games so I can jump in at just about any point and repeat a particular action (or death).

[crayauchtin]

Being a poor way of doing something is far from making it a terrible feature -- the lack of multiple saves has nothing to do with the chapter system. So how does the chapter system break the game?

[Lambonius]

Being a poor way of doing something is far from making it a terrible feature -- the lack of multiple saves has nothing to do with the chapter system. So how does the chapter system break the game?

Actually, I think the lack of a save-game feature is EXACTLY the result of the chapter system.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I remember Roberta herself explaining it that way (more or less) in one of the making-of videos from back in the day.  And it doesn't REALLY break the game--I did say I was exaggerating, didn't I? 

[crayauchtin]

Okay, you were exaggerating, but I still don't see the chapter system causing the lack of the save feature.

I mean, that may have been the "why" of them dropping the standard save system that but it's entirely possible to have both, y'know? It is inconvenient not to have the Saves, but I don't think we should be blaming the chapter system.

[Lambonius]

I mean, that may have been the "why" of them dropping the standard save system that but it's entirely possible to have both, y'know? It is inconvenient not to have the Saves, but I don't think we should be blaming the chapter system.

If they had both been incorporated, it would definitely be better, but I still think the "choose your starting point" system is just a pointless dumbing down of the game.  KQ7 actually had some decent puzzles, so the game itself isn't dumb--you still have to be pretty clever to figure it all the way out without a walkthrough--but this makes additions like the single cursor and the chapter select system even more insulting and needless.  The game would have been much better if it kept the chapters (which it could introduce and conclude like a storybook--which was the original goal anyway) but made it so that you had to start from the beginning of the game and save games like normal.

[crayauchtin]

Oh, I absolutely agree. Ideally, KQ7 would have kept the hands/eye/mouth/etc that we're used to and the saving system we're used to but I still like the fact you could start anywhere. Perhaps it would have been better if you had to unlock chapters first, by reaching that point on your first playthrough.

[Lambonius]

Oh, I absolutely agree. Ideally, KQ7 would have kept the hands/eye/mouth/etc that we're used to and the saving system we're used to but I still like the fact you could start anywhere. Perhaps it would have been better if you had to unlock chapters first, by reaching that point on your first playthrough.

This would have been a good solution, and would have made a lot more sense.  It's very "console-ish" though, and probably not something that would have ever occurred to PC adventure game designers back in the day.  Oh well. 

[shadyparadox]

I can proudly say that I completed KQ7 without any assistance from anywhere.

But unfortunately, I have to give some credit to the skip-around feature. I was completely stuck very early on in Chapter 3 until I jumped to Chapter 5, in which I put the moon back in the sky for reasons I had no idea about. Then on my return to the woods, I learned Valanice could jump across the rocks. Of course, I only realized this once I saw her heading south. I immediately loaded my other saved game and went from there.